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Author Topic: WH40000 - what's your opinion?  (Read 52936 times)

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Offline BeorningTopic starter

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #950 on: January 25, 2015, 12:38:48 PM »
Hm. Could you give any examples of the DE specialization? I'm curious how they work as any army...

I know that they have Wyches, guys on hoverbikes and those Kaballaks with guns, but are those units more different from each other than Sisters with different gear?

BTW. I've been looking over Dark Eldar-related art... oh my. These guys really are evil  :o Stomach-churning evil, in fact. Not an army I could identify with... On the other hand, the minis themselves are beautiful. Shame.

BTW 2. I have a rules question: what exactly is the difference between Assault weapons and Pistol weapons? The rules state that Pistols can be used as close combat weapons... but, at the same time, it seems to be that every model has some sort of unspecified close combat weapon by default. So... what exactly is the advantage of using a Pistol?
« Last Edit: January 25, 2015, 02:14:39 PM by Beorning »

Offline Hemingway

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #951 on: January 25, 2015, 02:25:11 PM »
AFAIK, a pistol will give you an additional attack in close combat ( together with a close combat weapon; if they have both by default, I think it'll be reflected in their A stat .. or not? I forget, tbh. ).

If you want to learn about specific armies, 1d4chan has tactics sections for all the armies. I don't know what the quality of the material is, but it should give you an idea of what works and how, at least.

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Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #952 on: January 25, 2015, 04:50:50 PM »
The problem with the stats is that you have a range of 1-10 only, and a d6 mechanic. This limits how much you can increase them, and still keep the game competative.

In addition, in fiction Marines are INSANELY powerful. 5 marines conquer a planet. 1 marine spends 20 years alone on a ork world, single handedly disrupting them. If you put those into the game, they'd have to have stats close to that of a greater deamon :)

Offline Wajin

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #953 on: January 25, 2015, 05:12:50 PM »
The problem with the stats is that you have a range of 1-10 only, and a d6 mechanic. This limits how much you can increase them, and still keep the game competative.

In addition, in fiction Marines are INSANELY powerful. 5 marines conquer a planet. 1 marine spends 20 years alone on a ork world, single handedly disrupting them. If you put those into the game, they'd have to have stats close to that of a greater deamon :)

Not to O'Shovah and the Eight. O'Shovah is one of the only people in the Universe that orks actually fear, that says a lot. His fictional portrayals depict him as a badass battlesuit pilot with who is practically impossible to kill, can single handedly take down thousands if not hundreds of thousands of orks. Add his band of crazy Ronin wannabes and you've got eight characters able to wipe out entire planets filled with orks

Offline CountessJess

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #954 on: January 25, 2015, 05:25:53 PM »
Not to O'Shovah and the Eight. O'Shovah is one of the only people in the Universe that orks actually fear, that says a lot. His fictional portrayals depict him as a badass battlesuit pilot with who is practically impossible to kill, can single handedly take down thousands if not hundreds of thousands of orks. Add his band of crazy Ronin wannabes and you've got eight characters able to wipe out entire planets filled with orks

The problem with the stats is that you have a range of 1-10 only, and a d6 mechanic. This limits how much you can increase them, and still keep the game competative.

In addition, in fiction Marines are INSANELY powerful. 5 marines conquer a planet. 1 marine spends 20 years alone on a ork world, single handedly disrupting them. If you put those into the game, they'd have to have stats close to that of a greater deamon :)

That's just silly. It's like the one where a single company of Cadians destroys an entire Hive Fleet, or Marneus Calgar punching an Avatar of Khaine in the face after two days of fighting an entire Eldar warhost by himself. It's just propaganda written from their factions' POV.

Offline consortium11

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #955 on: January 25, 2015, 10:24:18 PM »
That's just silly. It's like the one where a single company of Cadians destroys an entire Hive Fleet, or Marneus Calgar punching an Avatar of Khaine in the face after two days of fighting an entire Eldar warhost by himself. It's just propaganda written from their factions' POV.

I think the "propaganda" line is just a way to handwave/rationalize how ridiculous and unrepresentative the fluff is when compared to the table-top.

To take an example that goes the other way, one of the reasons given for why Sanguinius (badass Primarch) was a badass was that he managed to (eventually) defeat a powerful Bloodthirster... albeit he lost the first battle between the two. But while Bloodthirsters are certainly powerful on the tabletop they're not going to be wiping out whole armies by themselves and frankly you could probably defeat one relatively easily with a half-dozen Land Raiders or Leman Russ'. Likewise the Bloodthirster in question was apparently killing hundreds of Space Marines with each swipe of its axe... even if the Dice Gods really favored you that's not going to happen.

So there you have what would be handwaved as Imperial propaganda which either makes their Primarch's look incredibly soft or their enemies look incredibly badass.

Offline CountessJess

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #956 on: January 26, 2015, 01:48:36 AM »
I think the "propaganda" line is just a way to handwave/rationalize how ridiculous and unrepresentative the fluff is when compared to the table-top.

+1 exactly.

Offline Hemingway

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #957 on: January 26, 2015, 08:04:38 AM »
The fluff probably wouldn't be if exciting if Space Marines were described as being worth 3.4 guardsmen. Or the Eldar were described as pretty much equal to ordinary humans, but with somewhat better weapons. ;D

Offline BeorningTopic starter

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #958 on: January 26, 2015, 11:17:31 AM »
But the RPGs support the fluff, right? Or are Space Marines weak in these games, too?

If I may go back to rules questions for a moment: is Hemingway right about the pistols? Also, I have a Charge question (in reply #926) that still could use an answer  ;)

BTW. Countess, you're a Sisters player... so, what do you think of my planned army? At the moment, I plan it to include:

- a Canonness,
- 3 squads of 6 Sisters (1 Superior, 3 Sisters with bolters and 2 Sister with special / heavy weapons)
- 1 squad of 5 Seraphims
- 1 squad of Repentias (6 Sisters + Superior)
- 1 Penitent Engine

Does it make sense to you?

Offline CountessJess

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #959 on: January 26, 2015, 11:32:56 AM »
But the RPGs support the fluff, right? Or are Space Marines weak in these games, too?

If I may go back to rules questions for a moment: is Hemingway right about the pistols? Also, I have a Charge question (in reply #926) that still could use an answer  ;)

BTW. Countess, you're a Sisters player... so, what do you think of my planned army? At the moment, I plan it to include:

- a Canonness,
- 3 squads of 6 Sisters (1 Superior, 3 Sisters with bolters and 2 Sister with special / heavy weapons)
- 1 squad of 5 Seraphims
- 1 squad of Repentias (6 Sisters + Superior)
- 1 Penitent Engine

Does it make sense to you?

Hemingway is right about the pistols. I'm fairly sure you're right about the Charge as well; but it's been a while since I've played.

I would recommend not running the Canoness and run a Saint Celestine instead. Right now she, and her wargear is pretty expensive, and Saint Celestine is really cheap. If you're running a Canoness with no wargear upgrades you might as well not run her =P

I would recommend running your 6 sister squads with Rhinos Immolators (take the smoke launchers) and run a flamer/melta combo. If you don't want Rhinos, run bigger Sister squads.

Seraphim are good. Might want to take melta bombs on these, or an Eviscerator for the sister superior, so you can deepstrike behind tanks and go on their rear armour.

Repentia are never going to do anything if you don't give them some transport. Steal a Rhino from one of your other squads, or imho, take an inquisitor as a HQ, steal his Land Raider, assault ramp into everything. Land Raiders are better because you can assault out of some variants, whereas normally you can't assault after disembarking. In essence, you need some transport for Repentia. Also you need to run a larger squad if not they'll just get cut down before they can even reach anything.

Tell me how the Penitent Engine fares. I haven't run them in like forever...personally I don't like how they fare on tabletop, but that's personal preference.

Also, needs more Exorcists. Why no Exorcists? Get more Exorcists.

« Last Edit: January 26, 2015, 11:34:00 AM by CountessJess »

Offline BeorningTopic starter

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #960 on: January 26, 2015, 12:01:24 PM »
Hemingway is right about the pistols. I'm fairly sure you're right about the Charge as well; but it's been a while since I've played.

So, the pistols do count as a second close combat weapon? And the soldier carrying them gets to attack twice, even if they have A=1?

Quote
I would recommend not running the Canoness and run a Saint Celestine instead. Right now she, and her wargear is pretty expensive, and Saint Celestine is really cheap. If you're running a Canoness with no wargear upgrades you might as well not run her =P

Well, I do intend her to have the Blade of Admonition, as well as two other relics that grant bigger protection... Also, I plan to support her with a Command Squad, but that's in the future.

Quote
I would recommend running your 6 sister squads with Rhinos Immolators (take the smoke launchers) and run a flamer/melta combo. If you don't want Rhinos, run bigger Sister squads.

Rhinos / Immolators are expensive... As for the special weapons, I bought one Sister with each for the collection's sake. I plan for each squad to have one special weapon and one heavy weapon. So, one squad will have heavy bolter and a flamer, the second one will have heavy flamer and a melta etc.

Quote
Repentia are never going to do anything if you don't give them some transport. Steal a Rhino from one of your other squads, or imho, take an inquisitor as a HQ, steal his Land Raider, assault ramp into everything. Land Raiders are better because you can assault out of some variants, whereas normally you can't assault after disembarking. In essence, you need some transport for Repentia. Also you need to run a larger squad if not they'll just get cut down before they can even reach anything.

Hm. My plan was to keep in the second line and use them if the army runs into something they won't be able to gun down from distance...

Quote
Also, needs more Exorcists. Why no Exorcists? Get more Exorcists.

Exorcists are mightily expensive!  :-( I plan to get one... in the future.

Remember I want to have an Dark Eldar army and a Chaos army, too... And I don't earn that much...

Offline CountessJess

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #961 on: January 26, 2015, 12:47:29 PM »
So, the pistols do count as a second close combat weapon? And the soldier carrying them gets to attack twice, even if they have A=1?

Well, I do intend her to have the Blade of Admonition, as well as two other relics that grant bigger protection... Also, I plan to support her with a Command Squad, but that's in the future.

Rhinos / Immolators are expensive... As for the special weapons, I bought one Sister with each for the collection's sake. I plan for each squad to have one special weapon and one heavy weapon. So, one squad will have heavy bolter and a flamer, the second one will have heavy flamer and a melta etc.

Hm. My plan was to keep in the second line and use them if the army runs into something they won't be able to gun down from distance...

Exorcists are mightily expensive!  :-( I plan to get one... in the future.

Remember I want to have an Dark Eldar army and a Chaos army, too... And I don't earn that much...

Pistols add +1 to your attack. So if your model would normally have 1 Attack, equipping it with a pistol gives it a second attack. Bear in mind that some of the models with have this already added to their profile, but normally it will be noted that it has already been added.

You'll probably need to give your canoness a jetpack or something to make her effective. Footslogging your sisters across a field, especially if there's little cover, is going to be difficult. That goes for the Repentia as well - most people who know what Repentia do will do anything they can to take them out before they can get close. They're a fire magnet that doesn't have that much self-protection. Also, Sisters aren't really a ranged army at all - they're most successful between 1" to 12". Shooty armies will outshoot you if you try to shoot them, and sisters don't have the firepower at >12" to keep assault armies at bay.

I know vehicles are expensive =P I've spent money on them myself. But sisters are already very difficult to play - they're not incredibly tough, and you have to get close, but not in melee range, it's pretty difficult to pull off. That 3+ armour save isn't as impressive as it sounds - when you lose half your sister squad instantly to a single shot from a Leman Russ you'll understand how painful it is. Back in 4th Edition you could turn that 3+ armour to an invul save; but now you can't, so you have to be a lot more careful with them. Now, more than ever, you need extra protection, and larger squads as ablative armour for them.

Especially Repentia - those girls are really, really flimsy. They will get murdered horrible if you put them on foot. On the off chance that you manage to get them into melee they will rip everything apart, including most terminator variants, but problem is getting them there in the first place. Also you need to run like fifteen in a squad, not just 6.

If anything, field larger sister squads and get Exorcists. Exorcists are the mainstay of a Sister army - they deal with so many good things at range. In fact, if you're playing anything higher than 1000 points, I'd recommend getting 3.

Offline BeorningTopic starter

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #962 on: January 26, 2015, 01:13:59 PM »
Pistols add +1 to your attack. So if your model would normally have 1 Attack, equipping it with a pistol gives it a second attack. Bear in mind that some of the models with have this already added to their profile, but normally it will be noted that it has already been added.

Ah! Thank you. That clarifies matters...

Quote
You'll probably need to give your canoness a jetpack or something to make her effective.

Canoness can have a jetpack? I completely missed that bit in the codex...

Quote
Footslogging your sisters across a field, especially if there's little cover, is going to be difficult. That goes for the Repentia as well - most people who know what Repentia do will do anything they can to take them out before they can get close. They're a fire magnet that doesn't have that much self-protection. Also, Sisters aren't really a ranged army at all - they're most successful between 1" to 12". Shooty armies will outshoot you if you try to shoot them, and sisters don't have the firepower at >12" to keep assault armies at bay.

I know vehicles are expensive =P I've spent money on them myself. But sisters are already very difficult to play - they're not incredibly tough, and you have to get close, but not in melee range, it's pretty difficult to pull off. That 3+ armour save isn't as impressive as it sounds - when you lose half your sister squad instantly to a single shot from a Leman Russ you'll understand how painful it is. Back in 4th Edition you could turn that 3+ armour to an invul save; but now you can't, so you have to be a lot more careful with them. Now, more than ever, you need extra protection, and larger squads as ablative armour for them.

Especially Repentia - those girls are really, really flimsy. They will get murdered horrible if you put them on foot. On the off chance that you manage to get them into melee they will rip everything apart, including most terminator variants, but problem is getting them there in the first place. Also you need to run like fifteen in a squad, not just 6.

If anything, field larger sister squads and get Exorcists. Exorcists are the mainstay of a Sister army - they deal with so many good things at range. In fact, if you're playing anything higher than 1000 points, I'd recommend getting 3.

My God... so much money to spend...  :-(

Well, my idea right now is to construct two or three small armies, so that I could invite people to come to my home and play with me  ;D Hence, the low numbers in the Sisters army above - that's the starting point I'm hoping to achieve. Then, I plan on focusing on other armies. And when they are ready, I'll start adding soldiers piece by piece to each of them...

BTW. I ordered a hand drill yesterday and I have a question about drilling: do I need any safety goggles for it?
« Last Edit: January 26, 2015, 01:50:52 PM by Beorning »

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Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #963 on: January 26, 2015, 02:25:58 PM »
Hand drills generally don't go fast enough to send bits flying, which is what the eye protection is for with high-speed drills.

Online TheGlyphstone

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #964 on: January 26, 2015, 02:27:22 PM »
You'll drill your eye out, kid!

Offline BeorningTopic starter

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #965 on: January 26, 2015, 02:39:49 PM »
Thank you, I was just wondering...

But I'm not a kid  :P

Online TheGlyphstone

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #966 on: January 26, 2015, 02:40:55 PM »
I'm guessing A Christmas Story isn't popular over in Poland then. You are a lucky, lucky person.

Offline BeorningTopic starter

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #967 on: January 26, 2015, 02:45:32 PM »
*checks IMDB*

... it's honestly the first time I've heard of that movie. Over here, the movie that's unseparable from Christmas is Home Alone. Seriously, it's on TV every year.

One year, the TV station that usually airs is declared that they would *not* be airing it anymore. There were protests in response to that...

Online TheGlyphstone

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #968 on: January 26, 2015, 04:28:18 PM »
Huh, I've never really associated Home Alone with Christmas, though it does take place around then. The unholy trinity of Christmas movies I know are A Christmas Story, It's A Wonderful Life, and Miracle On 34th Street. A Christmas Carol doesn't count because there are so many versions and mediums.

Offline BeorningTopic starter

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #969 on: January 26, 2015, 04:30:02 PM »
Hm. I don't think I've seen any of the movies you mentioned...

BTW. Question for the Countess about the Repentias: you say that they should ride in a vehicle. But if I make a big squad of them, they won't fit all into a vehicle... especially not into Immolator. So, then what?
« Last Edit: January 26, 2015, 04:32:23 PM by Beorning »

Online TheGlyphstone

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #970 on: January 26, 2015, 04:33:54 PM »
Different culture.

Now that I think of it, though, all three of them are celebrations of Christmas commercialization and capitalism. Christmas Story's main plot is about getting a specific toy for a gift, A Wonderful Life is about the despairs of a struggling banker. Miracle on 34th Street centers over a department store Santa Claus who might be the real thing. Not really the societal touchstones you'd find in Eastern Europe, I guess.

Offline CountessJess

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #971 on: January 26, 2015, 05:07:53 PM »
Hm. I don't think I've seen any of the movies you mentioned...

BTW. Question for the Countess about the Repentias: you say that they should ride in a vehicle. But if I make a big squad of them, they won't fit all into a vehicle... especially not into Immolator. So, then what?

Take an Inquisitor as a HQ choice from the Codex: Inquisition. Have your Inquisitor take a Land Raider Crusader as a Dedicated Transport; stuff your Repentia inside. Land Raider Crusader can carry 16 models, vomit the Repentia onto something you need to die. If you don't want to get a land raider, a Rhino can carry 10 models.

Offline Hemingway

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #972 on: January 26, 2015, 08:50:24 PM »
Waiting for some models to arrive by mail - found a web store that happened to have lots of stuff I was looking for at 20% off. Awesome!

Offline Ironwolf85

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Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #973 on: January 27, 2015, 03:47:12 AM »
Love the game, love the lore... hate that GW prices models like collectibles.

Offline BeorningTopic starter

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #974 on: January 27, 2015, 03:57:25 PM »
Yeah, these things should be a few times cheaper, dammit!  >:(

BTW. I was wondering something: do any of the models come with assembly instructions? The infantry minis are obvious to figure out, but something like Exalted Seeker Chariot of Slaanesh... I can't imagine it's possible to assemble without any instructions. I mean, even when looking at the photos it's not that easy to tell how this crazy thing even looks like?