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Author Topic: WH40000 - what's your opinion?  (Read 53114 times)

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Offline deadmanshand

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #900 on: January 22, 2015, 02:26:00 PM »
How did you in anyway refute my argument? I specifically said that there was humorous elements at the beginning and that they were retconned out because of being too comedic. This included things like the Squats, toning down the Orks, and such. They specifically said that they did this to make the setting serious. Nothing you said proves your point or disproves mine. Mine is backed up by the company who makes the game.

You can see it as black comedy but that is not how it is intended to be.


You know what? It doesn't matter. We've already established that I do not like the same things about this setting that anyone here does nor do I have the same view of it. I'm just going to leave Warhammer 40K alone on this website.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2015, 02:28:21 PM by deadmanshand »

Offline CountessJess

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #901 on: January 22, 2015, 02:29:30 PM »
So, you can do it? Bring miniatures from other games to represent something in WH40K?

BTW. What the heck is she standing on?

On another note, I just skimmed through the rulebook. That "Galaxy of War" section... yeah. I definitely want some Daemons and Dark Eldar now  :-)

I think there's a rule that 90% of your army has to be GW miniatures if you want to play at an official Games Workshop. I don't play at an official Games Workshop, and I hardly play anyways - I find painting more interesting, really - so, yeah.

She's standing on the rest of her cloak - these Cygnar, all so crazy.

I personally have developed a certain distaste for the setting. I'll admit the space marines are kind of awesome and I have a bit of fondness for the Eldar, but it feels like they go way out of their way to make everyone dislikable. I honestly I find the orks more sympathetic than most because they're simply an organism following their nature. The empire is an oppressive autcracy that worships a mere mortal and is violently xenophobic and intolerant. The Tau don't seem too bad until you learn they're also imperialists and favor a stiflingly rigid society as well. The chaos are omnicidal whack jobs and I don't like the idea that chaos is inherently bad. The Eldar at least aren't engaging in genocide and seem to be some of the least imperialistic and worship Deities that are neither omnicidal or mere mortals, but they created Slaanesh through sheer decadence. Then there's the orks. They may simply be organisms doing what they do but they are so entirely focused on war it's absurd. What irks me most is how the setting seemingly plays up the authoritarian, repressive empire as some kind of hero in all of this. They are the people I would want to fight against, screw the lore. Then there's the cultures the varying marine groups come from. They say so little about them that it disappoints me. Then there's the simple fact that the whole set up is so depressingly hopeless. There's a different between "dark" and simply soul crushing, nihilistic hopelessness.

When I first started learning about the setting I was intrigued and then came to develop a certain sense of disappointment as I learned more.  The fantasy setting is far more tolerable for me. 40,000k has some interesting ideas, but the above mentioned aspects make it hard for me to get into it.

Sorry if that came across as overly vitriolic, but that's my thought on the setting.

I think you're mistaking the Imperium's situation - they're not xenophobic by choice, they're xenophobic by necessity. The whole point of the setting is that the difficulties that the Imperium faces requires the institution of such a monolithic, religious bureaucracy to manage such a massive empire - and the oppression that follows from such a system is a lesser evil in comparison to falling wholesale to Chaos or being overrun by Orks, or Tyranids, or the next flavour of the week faction. You don't have to make the conniving bureaucrat or the corrupt cardinal the 'hero' of the Imperium - after all, there plenty of sympathetic characters who try to make the most of their situation, struggling both against the Imperium's enemies as well as the state apparatus.

I don't understand why Chaos shouldn't be inherently bad. They're modeled after Hell. Except it's in space. So it's inherently bad.

The Eldar don't engage in genocide - I think you're quite incorrect in that. Eldar don't engage in genocide as a policy because they don't have the resources to engage in territorial expansion or the manpower to run around the galaxy killing civilians. But they've been more than happy to let billions of humans die to save a couple of Eldar lives or artifacts. Also, the gods they worshipped are some of the most fickle and mercurial. It's like if you take the Greek pantheon, and instead of turning you to stone or something, they murder your extended family, rape your sisters and mother, and condemn your soul to be tortured for eternity.

I think the only thing that makes you 'have' to support the authoritarian Imperium is that they're human. But they're not the only human faction, and they're broken up into many different human factions as well, some of which (like the Guard, or the Navy) have very little to do with the genocide, or the fanaticism, or the repression.

How did you in anyway refute my argument? I specifically said that there was humorous elements at the beginning and that they were retconned out because of being too comedic. This included things like the Squats, toning down the Orks, and such. They specifically said that they did this to make the setting serious. Nothing you said proves your point or disproves mine. Mine is backed up by the company who makes the game.

You can see it as black comedy but that is not how it is intended to be.

I think there's room for both dark humour and grimdarkness. GW is pushing both areas, I mean, Caiaphas Cain is still being written, Dawn of War II is full of silly Schwarzenegger references and Monty Python jokes, and so on...but that doesn't mean that some aspects can be dark humour and others be grim dark.

Offline TheGlyphstone

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #902 on: January 22, 2015, 02:31:21 PM »
Quote
Very specifically stated to be done to take the game back to the tone it as always meant to have.

You claimed the early game was not intended to be comedic. I pointed out that things like the Orks could not possibly have been intended as anything but comedic. Your point is backed up by the company as it currently exists. Mine is proven by the company as it existed in the 80's, by the original designers. A shift in design paradigm over 30 years with people like Rick Priestly leaving and Matt Ward coming onboard (and leaving) isn't surprising, but to claim the new design crew's vision is actually how the original writers intended but somehow staggeringly screwed up is disingenuous to the visible evidence. For that matter, the current shift to reincorporate comedy into newer codexes shows the newest group of writers thinks the previous one went too far in stripping out the funny.

Offline deadmanshand

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #903 on: January 22, 2015, 02:32:46 PM »
Did you miss where I said I wasn't arguing this anymore?

Offline TheGlyphstone

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #904 on: January 22, 2015, 02:34:23 PM »
Yeah, you edited that in while we were writing rebuttals. But that's fair, we don't have to agree. The game is big enough for everyone, as Jess points out.

Offline deadmanshand

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #905 on: January 22, 2015, 02:39:02 PM »
I'm probably just done trying to indulge any of my love of Warhammer 40K on this site. Apparently no one agrees with me on it, the games are frustrating, and I don't actually play the war game or paint figures.

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Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #906 on: January 22, 2015, 02:42:38 PM »
So, you can do it? Bring miniatures from other games to represent something in WH40K?

In friendly games, yes.

In tournaments .. maybe, maybe not, depending on the organisers.

In a GW tournament, nope.

There are a lot of models from other games that would fit quite well into the 40k universe, with a bit of conversion work here and there.

Offline Lux12

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Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #907 on: January 22, 2015, 02:48:41 PM »

I think you're mistaking the Imperium's situation - they're not xenophobic by choice, they're xenophobic by necessity. The whole point of the setting is that the difficulties that the Imperium faces requires the institution of such a monolithic, religious bureaucracy to manage such a massive empire - and the oppression that follows from such a system is a lesser evil in comparison to falling wholesale to Chaos or being overrun by Orks, or Tyranids, or the next flavour of the week faction. You don't have to make the conniving bureaucrat or the corrupt cardinal the 'hero' of the Imperium - after all, there plenty of sympathetic characters who try to make the most of their situation, struggling both against the Imperium's enemies as well as the state apparatus.

I don't understand why Chaos shouldn't be inherently bad. They're modeled after Hell. Except it's in space. So it's inherently bad.

The Eldar don't engage in genocide - I think you're quite incorrect in that. Eldar don't engage in genocide as a policy because they don't have the resources to engage in territorial expansion or the manpower to run around the galaxy killing civilians. But they've been more than happy to let billions of humans die to save a couple of Eldar lives or artifacts. Also, the gods they worshipped are some of the most fickle and mercurial. It's like if you take the Greek pantheon, and instead of turning you to stone or something, they murder your extended family, rape your sisters and mother, and condemn your soul to be tortured for eternity.

I think the only thing that makes you 'have' to support the authoritarian Imperium is that they're human. But they're not the only human faction, and they're broken up into many different human factions as well, some of which (like the Guard, or the Navy) have very little to do with the genocide, or the fanaticism, or the repression.

I think there's room for both dark humour and grimdarkness. GW is pushing both areas, I mean, Caiaphas Cain is still being written, Dawn of War II is full of silly Schwarzenegger references and Monty Python jokes, and so on...but that doesn't mean that some aspects can be dark humour and others be grim dark.

Chaos is change, innovation, imagination, the wonderful whimsical elements of life as well. A world without chaos would be very dull and less than fulfilling. It would be a universe consumed by the worst kind of fatalism. The problem is when chaos and order are out of balance. To give you an example, unbalanced order is something like North Korea, too much chaos is something akin to the most hellish of wars. Neither are things I'd wish to see first hand. When you tell people chaos is bad you are telling them spontaneous shows of affection are bad, happy coincidences are bad, innovation is bad, freedom, and new ideas are bad.

The other truth is that if the Eldar, Tau, and Humans got their heads out of their hindquarters for just a few minutes they could at least fight together against their common enemies and attain a level of coexistence. It may be a sweeping change that couldn't occur over night, but the xenophobia is unnecessary. It's unbalanced order if compared to the unbalanced chaos.

Also from the way you talk about the Eldar Deities, they sound better than  worshiping an emperor who to me is about the same if not worse. Except I disdain him even more because he can't even claim to be actually be a God. As the man who established said regime I can only look upon him with contempt.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2015, 02:52:00 PM by Lux12 »

Offline TheGlyphstone

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #908 on: January 22, 2015, 02:59:16 PM »
You missed some important bits of Heresy era fluff then...yet another aspect to the grimdark is that the Emperor never intended to be worshipped as a god. He led entire galactic crusades to stamp out religion and faith, because it empowered Chaos (with a capital C). He was only deified - against his express wishes - after he was crippled in the battle for Terra, and the Imperium has spiraled out of control since then.

It's also worth noting that the status of 'god' isn't a fixed thing in 40K. Big E was human to start with (well, sort of. His actual age varies by edition, but is always many thousands of years old already), but belief is an empowering force in this setting. Even with his physical body immobilized on the Golden Throne, all that worship going his way could very well be what produces things like the divine miracles of the Sisters of Battle.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2015, 03:04:43 PM by TheGlyphstone »

Offline BeorningTopic starter

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #909 on: January 22, 2015, 03:49:21 PM »
Chaos is change, innovation, imagination, the wonderful whimsical elements of life as well. A world without chaos would be very dull and less than fulfilling. It would be a universe consumed by the worst kind of fatalism. The problem is when chaos and order are out of balance.

You know, I agree with you in principle... but the issue here is, the thing you describe as chaos is not the same thing as WH40K Chaos. In that setting, Chaos isn't just a creative force, but the personification of passions and phenomena taken to the extreme. And that kind of chaos is just destructive.

You seem to have the same problem I tended to have with Star Wars and its idea of "dark side of the force". For some time, I kept arguing that the SW setting is wrong, because it insists that negative emotions are a bad thing. And so, I kept arguing that the Sith are misunderstood, that Dark Force users shouldn't be penalized in SW RPGs etc. Eventually, though, I realized that there's no point in arguing: that's the way this setting defines these matters and that's just the way it is. There's no point in arguing that it should be different.

Similarly, you could argue that Lovecraft's universe is wrong, because it implies that too much knowledge makes people insane. That's disputable in real life, but that's how things work in that particular setting. In HPL's world, there's a concept that human mind cannot comprehend the true nature of the cosmos... and in WH40K, there's this concept that Chaos (not just "chaos") is something very particular and not very pleasant...

Offline consortium11

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #910 on: January 22, 2015, 04:04:21 PM »
Chaos is change, innovation, imagination, the wonderful whimsical elements of life as well. A world without chaos would be very dull and less than fulfilling. It would be a universe consumed by the worst kind of fatalism. The problem is when chaos and order are out of balance. To give you an example, unbalanced order is something like North Korea, too much chaos is something akin to the most hellish of wars. Neither are things I'd wish to see first hand. When you tell people chaos is bad you are telling them spontaneous shows of affection are bad, happy coincidences are bad, innovation is bad, freedom, and new ideas are bad.

You're talking about the philosophical concept of chaos (with a small "c") The Chaos of 40K isn't a philosophical concept... it's a reality (both physical and spiritual/psychic and it's with a large "C". "Chaos" is simply the name attached to them both in and outside the universe.

Offline TheGlyphstone

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #911 on: January 22, 2015, 04:10:24 PM »
Also, it is actively malevolent and wants to kill you.


As far as the Eldar gods go...they're really not that much better, they're even a bit worse, in terms of being gods relative to Big E - whether or not you accept that they too were once incarnate/semi-mortal beings, the Old Ones who genegineered the Eldar race as soldiers to fight the C'tan and their Necron armies. To start with, most of them are dead, killed by the Fall of the Eldar. Khaine survives as a bunch of fragmented chunks that can occasionally be awoken as the Avatar by sacrificing an Eldar warrior to it. Isha is a prisoner of Nurgle, and used as his test subject for plagues and diseases. Cegorach just trolls around the Webway doing whatever he wants and basically ignoring all the non-Harlequin Eldar. Ynnead doesn't exist yet except as a conceptual possibility who might be able to avenge the Eldar by killing Slaanesh once every Eldar in existence has finally died.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2015, 04:12:44 PM by TheGlyphstone »

Offline Hemingway

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #912 on: January 23, 2015, 06:25:31 PM »
I've done nothing but paint the last few days ( well, almost ). I'm almost done with the models from the pack I bought - doing the large creature now. It's actually one of the few large monsters I've ever painted ( I did paint a manticore once, long ago, but it was a terrible paint job ).

Offline BeorningTopic starter

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #913 on: January 23, 2015, 06:34:43 PM »
I've done nothing but paint the last few days ( well, almost ).

How do you find the time..?  :o

I'm planning to start working on the penitent engine this weekend. Considering how big the model is, this project may take a few weeks...

And as I mentioned before, ordinary minis take at least one day for me to paint. Considering that I only have time to paint on Saturdays, I'm really worried that my Sisters army will take most of the year to get completed...

Offline CountessJess

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #914 on: January 23, 2015, 06:49:34 PM »
I'm repainting my St. Celestine myself =) let's see who can finish their big model first, Beorning!

Offline Hemingway

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #915 on: January 23, 2015, 06:50:16 PM »
How do you find the time..?  :o

Well, I'm finished with my exams and most my other stuff, so ...

Offline BeorningTopic starter

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #916 on: January 23, 2015, 07:05:06 PM »
I'm repainting my St. Celestine myself =) let's see who can finish their big model first, Beorning!

Is Celestine really so big? She seems to be of the size of an ordinary Sister...

Well, I'm finished with my exams and most my other stuff, so ...

Ah! That sweet time in the past when I was studying at the university and didn't have to work...

Offline CountessJess

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #917 on: January 23, 2015, 07:11:48 PM »
Is Celestine really so big? She seems to be of the size of an ordinary Sister...

Well, no...then I'll paint that AND an Exorcist. Race!

Offline BeorningTopic starter

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #918 on: January 23, 2015, 07:29:00 PM »
Alright, let's race! I'll try starting to prime the engine parts tomorrow. Then, I'll be painting them one by one... And I'll order a drill in the meantime, so that I have it ready when it'll come to putting this crazy thing together...

Offline BeorningTopic starter

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #919 on: January 24, 2015, 11:03:19 AM »
Okay, something that I'm wondering about: how much strategy is there in WH40K? For example, do different armies really force different ways of play? Let's say we have a Space Marine army and an Eldar army - would they really require different strategies when playing?

Offline Wajin

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #920 on: January 24, 2015, 11:14:58 AM »
Okay, something that I'm wondering about: how much strategy is there in WH40K? For example, do different armies really force different ways of play? Let's say we have a Space Marine army and an Eldar army - would they really require different strategies when playing?

Simple answer: Yes

On a more serious note. The reason you need different tactics is because almost no army has the same balance of close combat, long range, medium range, vehicles etc. For example. I play Tau, which in the current Codex posses close to no viable use close combat options that can compete with the others. That forces me to adapt my army to be extremely long range so I can take down units like the Assault Marines, Banshees, and Raptors before they become a problem

Offline BeorningTopic starter

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #921 on: January 24, 2015, 11:20:47 AM »
Ha! Would you mind elaborating? How exactly do you adapt your army to long-range fighting?

Offline Wajin

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #922 on: January 24, 2015, 11:33:49 AM »
Ha! Would you mind elaborating? How exactly do you adapt your army to long-range fighting?

I play Tau :P

On a serious note, I use the right wargear, use the right commander, broadside battlesuits, stuff like that :P

Offline consortium11

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #923 on: January 24, 2015, 11:42:08 AM »
Ha! Would you mind elaborating? How exactly do you adapt your army to long-range fighting?

I can't speak for Tau (or for the any of the more recent editions, I stopped playing around 3rd) but it's largely around troop and equipment selection.

The most obvious example to use is probably Space Marines as I'd say they're the most flexible army being good at everything without necessarily being great any anything. With my Space Marine army I'd look at the opponent I was facing, think about what they were likely to take and adapt the army I decided to use accordingly. Facing the Imperial Guard... an army based around lots of cheap, shooty troops backed up by heavy armour and tanks but that struggles in close combat... and I'd go for a fast, mobile, army (jump packs, bikers, skimmers, transports etc) with an emphasis on close combat and anti-vehicle damage backed up by just enough ranged stuff to keep the other player honest. Facing an army like Orks based around close combat and again having lots of troops but less armour? Focus on long range units (devestators etc) and rapid fire weapons with only a few anti-armour weapons and enough close combat troops to hold the line in a pinch (likely terminators because they can offer real firepower as well). Smaller, more elite armies like Chaos Space Marines (back when Chaos Space Marine armies basically consisted of Marines and expensive demons)? Roughly the same but with more powerful heavy weapons and likely more psychic defences.

Now, that's for Space Marines, an army flexible enough to react to what your opponent has. Other armies are more one-dimensional; the Tyranids for example are heavily focused on close range and hand to hand combat. Whatever army you pick you'll likely to lose if the battle is fought at range. Thus you want an army that's focused on close combat... but also on that can actually get into close range. So you want fast units to close the distance quickly, you want big, heavy targets to soak up fire power, you want ways to disrupt the opposition so it's harder for them to shoot you and you want ways to protect your best close combat units from being shot at. The classic tactic there was to use cheap units as meatshields; termagants in front of genestealers was a simple and somewhat effective solution.

While it may have changed since I was playing Sister of Battle were primarily a close range (but not necessarily close combat) army. That left them in a somewhat odd position; they were at their most effective when enemies were within charging range but struggled if enemies could actually charge. That means you had to make your one or two turns in that range really count and so there was a heavy emphasis on flamers (because you could hit lots of units), grenades (same) and close range, powerful weapons (like multimeltas and plasma weapons) to stop a big, tough, close combat unit from barreling in. You largely wanted to get your units within about 12 inches (or less) of the opposition and then break them in a single turn.

Offline BeorningTopic starter

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #924 on: January 24, 2015, 12:04:17 PM »
I see. Thank you!

BTW. I just started reading the rulebook and I have a question: is there a characteristic (or something else) that decides how far can a model move during the movement phase? Or do all models move up to 6'' and there's no variation?