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Author Topic: WH40000 - what's your opinion?  (Read 52976 times)

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Offline CountessJess

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #800 on: January 02, 2015, 05:50:25 PM »
Quote
But that's now... after nearly three decades of fluff development. When the Eldar first appeared they had no connection to the universes' backstory (other than the fact that they and humans were genetically similar... since largely retconned) and were little more than raiders (who basically did what the Dark Eldar do now) and occasional traders who were tolerated by some of the Imperium and occasionally hired as body guards and mercenaries. Self-sustaining Craftworlds were mentioned... but there was no reference to why they were needed or anything else. It wasn't until years later that things we'd consider core to the Eldar today and what really ties them into the wider universe (dying race, the Fall, the birth of Slaanesh, Waystones, the retcon of Infinity Circuits, Aspect Shrines, death of their Gods etc etc) appeared in the fluff.

In their first appearances the Eldar were nothing more than elves in space (in fact they were originally called elves) and mimiced the existing fantasy elf races almost entirely; the raiders were dark/evil elves, the mercenaries and traders were "normal" elves and the Exodites were wood elves. They had no real links to the Imperium and no relevance to the wider story or universe outside of being there.

I'd argue that you only can really take 40k lore fairly seriously around 3rd Edition or so; before that it was a hodgepodge of whatever was the popular at that time with the writers. I mean, this was a period where Inquisitor Obiwan Sherlock Closseau existed, and Space Marines climbed ladders butt naked and shat on each other. It was a weird time. So with undeveloped lore and all that, everything didn't really make sense, not just the Eldar portions.

Like the Eldar, the Tau have had a lot of time to develop since their first conception, but unlike the Eldar, they've hardly had an impact on the fluff. Their 2nd and 3rd Sphere expansions have been largely vague uncontested battles, their major military moment continues to be the abortive Damocles Gulf Crusade, and they've gone 'darker' with a few mentions of brainwashing and Commander Farsight going rogue. That's all they've done.

Quote
Killed what? I avoid them like the plague so Ive not heard that one, care to tell, or point me in the right direction?

It's a short story in their old 3rd edition codex where the tau fight a bunch of cultists and Chaos Marines, and kill a Keeper of Secrets [my bad, it was a Slaaneshi Chaos Lord] after taking terrible losses. Based on their confused understanding of Chaos they think they've killed Slaanesh. Passing Eldar laugh at them.
« Last Edit: January 02, 2015, 05:56:01 PM by CountessJess »

Offline BeorningTopic starter

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #801 on: January 02, 2015, 06:25:02 PM »
Okay, what you guys say about the Tau makes them look like adorable idiots. Keep that coming  ;D

But why the hate for the Dark Eldar? They are cool. And yes, I know that they seem to be Space S&M Fans. That's what makes them cool  ;D

Offline deadmanshand

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #802 on: January 02, 2015, 07:22:43 PM »
Okay, what you guys say about the Tau makes them look like adorable idiots. Keep that coming  ;D

No such thing as an adorable idiot. Idiots are just idiots.

Quote
But why the hate for the Dark Eldar? They are cool. And yes, I know that they seem to be Space S&M Fans. That's what makes them cool  ;D

Because they aren't cool. They are a few fetishes slapped together and given pointy ears and a veneer of fluff. That's boring at the best of times.

Offline Wajin

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #803 on: January 03, 2015, 03:33:26 AM »
This also happens to be the reason I love playing Tau as the Farsight Enclave :P

Offline consortium11

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #804 on: January 03, 2015, 04:36:19 AM »
I'd argue that you only can really take 40k lore fairly seriously around 3rd Edition or so; before that it was a hodgepodge of whatever was the popular at that time with the writers. I mean, this was a period where Inquisitor Obiwan Sherlock Closseau existed, and Space Marines climbed ladders butt naked and shat on each other. It was a weird time. So with undeveloped lore and all that, everything didn't really make sense, not just the Eldar portions.

I'm not sure I can really agree.

Outside of the Necron retcon (and they only just scraped into 2nd edition), the new races and the odd Wardification of a codex the lore of 2nd Edition is largely the lore of today. Things like the Horus Heresy, Birth of Slaanesh/Fall of the Eldar, Armageddon Wars, Black Crusades, Tyranid Hive Fleets etc etc were all locked in place; the lore that has come out since tends to give more detail to certain events but the events themselves were already established. The Eldar of the 2nd Edition are basically the Eldar of today.

Offline Wajin

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #805 on: January 03, 2015, 04:43:28 AM »
I'm not sure I can really agree.

Outside of the Necron retcon (and they only just scraped into 2nd edition), the new races and the odd Wardification of a codex the lore of 2nd Edition is largely the lore of today. Things like the Horus Heresy, Birth of Slaanesh/Fall of the Eldar, Armageddon Wars, Black Crusades, Tyranid Hive Fleets etc etc were all locked in place; the lore that has come out since tends to give more detail to certain events but the events themselves were already established. The Eldar of the 2nd Edition are basically the Eldar of today.

I will happily admit I love the FUCK out of the new Necron Lore <.<

Offline TheGlyphstone

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #806 on: January 03, 2015, 05:23:01 AM »
Newcrons are one of the few things Ward got really, really right. They're not the implacable Terminataborg of 3e, but those were boring as hell and suffered thematic overlap with the Tyranids in the mysterious faceless unstoppable antagonist department. Now we get Tomb Kings IN SPAAAAAAACE, but they've got a flavor of their own that's unique to 40K. And they come with two of the best special characters of all time.

Offline Wajin

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #807 on: January 03, 2015, 05:55:46 AM »
Newcrons are one of the few things Ward got really, really right. They're not the implacable Terminataborg of 3e, but those were boring as hell and suffered thematic overlap with the Tyranids in the mysterious faceless unstoppable antagonist department. Now we get Tomb Kings IN SPAAAAAAACE, but they've got a flavor of their own that's unique to 40K. And they come with two of the best special characters of all time.

You mean "Troll"zyn the Infinite and Orikan the Timelord right? :P Just kidding of course, those are my two favourite, my hubby learned of their new lore and instantly went out and bought like... 1000 worth of Necron stuff because he loooooves tomb kings, and as you said, Tomb Kings in space :D
« Last Edit: January 03, 2015, 06:02:26 AM by A Japanese Dane »

Offline deadmanshand

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #808 on: January 03, 2015, 06:52:37 AM »
People like Ward's butchery of the Necron? I despise what was done with them. They were so much cooler and thematic as silent, implacable death.

Offline Wajin

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #809 on: January 03, 2015, 07:07:00 AM »
People like Ward's butchery of the Necron? I despise what was done with them. They were so much cooler and thematic as silent, implacable death.

They were basically metallic 'nids

Offline deadmanshand

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #810 on: January 03, 2015, 07:23:31 AM »
But so much cooler than the Xenomorph Navy.

Offline Hemingway

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #811 on: January 03, 2015, 07:31:28 AM »
I, for one, like the Tau.

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Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #812 on: January 03, 2015, 07:32:04 AM »
They were basically metallic 'nids

I don't think they were. The rational for the Nids was simple. They want to eat everyone and everything. They're like galactic locusts.

The old Necrons, no one knew why they were doing what they were doing. In the fiction at least they'd turn up, randomly kill things then vanish again.

Offline Wajin

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #813 on: January 03, 2015, 07:48:37 AM »
I don't think they were. The rational for the Nids was simple. They want to eat everyone and everything. They're like galactic locusts.

The old Necrons, no one knew why they were doing what they were doing. In the fiction at least they'd turn up, randomly kill things then vanish again.

I, for one, likes the new necrons better due to their expanded fluff, actual likeable characters, interesting characters.

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Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #814 on: January 03, 2015, 07:53:40 AM »
I haven't read the new Necron fluff, so can't really comment on that. The Tomb Kings in Space angle didn't really appeal to me though. *shrugs*

Offline deadmanshand

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #815 on: January 03, 2015, 08:12:28 AM »
I, for one, likes the new necrons better due to their expanded fluff, actual likeable characters, interesting characters.

They aren't supposed to have characters - likable, interesting, or otherwise. They were an implacable doom. Death from the dark places between the stars that struck without warning and were gone as quickly leaving nothing alive. Giving a doom face and reasons misses the purpose of them being a doom. They went from the mysterious hand of the C'tan to generic undead army. If I want generic undead army I'll play Warcraft or Warhammer Fantasy or every other fantasy wargame made in the history of ever.

They were LOvecraftian in a way few things are in 40k. Alien and utterly malign. Deadly by their very existence but without personal rancor or hatred. Humanity would die and they would never remember their name. They wouldn't even be a foot note.
« Last Edit: January 03, 2015, 08:14:12 AM by deadmanshand »

Offline Wajin

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #816 on: January 03, 2015, 08:32:15 AM »
They aren't supposed to have characters - likable, interesting, or otherwise. They were an implacable doom. Death from the dark places between the stars that struck without warning and were gone as quickly leaving nothing alive. Giving a doom face and reasons misses the purpose of them being a doom. They went from the mysterious hand of the C'tan to generic undead army. If I want generic undead army I'll play Warcraft or Warhammer Fantasy or every other fantasy wargame made in the history of ever.

They were LOvecraftian in a way few things are in 40k. Alien and utterly malign. Deadly by their very existence but without personal rancor or hatred. Humanity would die and they would never remember their name. They wouldn't even be a foot note.

Can we agree to disagree then? I find the change great, you don't. We can at least respect that we have a difference of opinion and leave it at that

Offline deadmanshand

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #817 on: January 03, 2015, 08:43:19 AM »
Sure. I was just making conversation.

Offline BeorningTopic starter

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #818 on: January 03, 2015, 08:46:37 AM »
Now I'm curious: what are the changes to the Necrons that came from Ward? What did he exactly add?

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Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #819 on: January 03, 2015, 09:09:06 AM »
Background and personality.

The Necrons started off very much in the Terminator fashion. Unstopable metallic killing machines, they'd appear without warning, kill everyone (or as many as couldn't escape) and then vanish. No communications, to warnings, just merciless attacks. Fallen Necrons phased out, so they didn't even leave behind remains for study.

The new ones (and someone more familiar with them than I am can correct me if I'm wrong here) were a race of mortal creatures millions of years ago. They uploaded their personalities into robotic shells (or were tricked into it, believing it would grant them immortality?), then went into hibernation for ages due to reasons. Now they're waking back up, and finding all these new races all over the planets that made up their Empire. Break out the shootin' irons, there's varmints infesting our worlds.

I believe there are a number of personalities / noble houses / dynasties within the Necron Empire, so you now have the possibility of Necrons working against each other, and they have their reasons for wanting to kill everyone else off.

Offline deadmanshand

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #820 on: January 03, 2015, 09:12:38 AM »
They were pretty much always a mortal race placed into necrodermis shells by the trickery of the C'tan. It was making them individuals that Ward added. One of many, many terrible things that man added to the fluff.

Offline Wajin

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #821 on: January 03, 2015, 09:35:37 AM »
Background and personality.

The Necrons started off very much in the Terminator fashion. Unstopable metallic killing machines, they'd appear without warning, kill everyone (or as many as couldn't escape) and then vanish. No communications, to warnings, just merciless attacks. Fallen Necrons phased out, so they didn't even leave behind remains for study.

The new ones (and someone more familiar with them than I am can correct me if I'm wrong here) were a race of mortal creatures millions of years ago. They uploaded their personalities into robotic shells (or were tricked into it, believing it would grant them immortality?), then went into hibernation for ages due to reasons. Now they're waking back up, and finding all these new races all over the planets that made up their Empire. Break out the shootin' irons, there's varmints infesting our worlds.

I believe there are a number of personalities / noble houses / dynasties within the Necron Empire, so you now have the possibility of Necrons working against each other, and they have their reasons for wanting to kill everyone else off.

Your forgot the part where they waged a war on the Old Ones ;)

Offline deadmanshand

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #822 on: January 03, 2015, 09:41:41 AM »
That was part of the original fluff. All Ward did was make up the Dynasty Houses, make them rebel against the C'tan, and give them individual personalities - which defeated the purpose of the Deceiver making them because he wanted a fearless loyal army to use against the psychic races.

Offline Wajin

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #823 on: January 03, 2015, 10:46:49 AM »
That was part of the original fluff. All Ward did was make up the Dynasty Houses, make them rebel against the C'tan, and give them individual personalities - which defeated the purpose of the Deceiver making them because he wanted a fearless loyal army to use against the psychic races.

they're still blanks as far as I know <.<

Offline ChaoticSky

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #824 on: January 03, 2015, 10:56:47 AM »
I have never been a necron person (other than drooling all over their weapons in the RPGs), but my friend has been big on the necrons since they appeared, he liked Terminator-Crons, but he likes the new Tomb-Crons better. Personally I think he was just happy to have a proper lore/history/personalities to go with his favourite army finally.