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Author Topic: WH40000 - what's your opinion?  (Read 53554 times)

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Offline CountessJess

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #750 on: December 29, 2014, 11:06:47 AM »
Oh, I decided that painting the same color scheme over and over again will be boring... so, I'm going with a concept I termed "Sororitas Expeditionary Force". Basically, representatives of all of the orders, including some made-up by me.

So far, I used four of the established orders and one of my own conception. The next one I'll be painting will be the Seraphim from the Order of Martyred Lady... the ones that dye for the Emperor  ;D She'll also be the second black-skinned Sister on the roster. Overall, I hope to go for a variety of Orders, as well as of skin colours and hair colours.

On related note, I just spent some time trying to figure out how the penitent engine fits together. I think I got it... but I'm afraid if the model will hold together with just Superglue? The pieces are heavy... and I have no idea how to do pinning...

As someone who plays sisters and has had trouble with the penitent engine (as well as the wings for Saint Celestine, for that matter) you definitely need to drill and greenstuff heavily if you want the model to actually stick together. Always pack a tube of superglue when transporting them around because you can pack them as nicely as you want, somehow they're always going to break somewhere. I've drilled and greenstuffed my Celestine and my Penitent Engines too many times to count, and they still don't stick together properly.

Additionally, I'm not sure about the quality of the models you got, but for my penitents and my exorcists, the models don't always fit each other well, which might be the reason why you might be unsure about how well the model puts together. Just be careful, and greenstuff when in doubt. Or you can be like me and pressgang a friend to do all the greenstuff for you =)

Also, try drybrushing your sister models. Sister metal miniatures have a lot of cracks that really show up nicely with a hastily applied layer of drybrushing - the corsets and studs are a case in point. Much better than individually highlighting, or not colouring them at all.

It's always nice to see someone start sisters.

Offline BeorningTopic starter

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #751 on: December 29, 2014, 11:37:49 AM »
Oh wow, somebody else than me plays the Sisters!  ;D

So... you say that the penitent engine might need drilling. Any advice on how to do that?

Offline ChaoticSky

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #752 on: December 29, 2014, 12:56:55 PM »
Bit late, but I think ill toss in my two cents on the sororitas and/or marines relationship stuff;

For Sororitas, they do not in fact have vows of celibacy, but their lifestyle (training>prayer>bloody combat>repeat untill you die) generally leaves no time or interest in personal relationships (unless you buy into the fanon that most of them are... sisterly inclined ;) ). Should a Sororita find themselves in a position outside the normal loop, theres no reason they couldnt develop relationships with likely partners. Which is exactly what happens in the Cain novels, where the Pre-Sororitas training instructor is in a relationship with the Administatum Adept instructor. And for similar reasons, I imagine its more common among the Hospitallar/Dialogous/Famulous orders than the Militant ones.

For the marines.... its pretty murky. The universal rule is that (Loyalist) Space Marines Do Not Have Sex Ever. The common party line is that they are neutered (or simply not allowed to develop to a adult/post-pubescent state) during the process that makes them space marines and so lack any capacity for sexual desire. The common 'image' is that Space Marines are likened to herculean Greek sculptures, hyper masculine but with tiny tiny genitals. If you were to ask your questions in polite company, that is the answer you would get.

However there is a TON of stuff that contracts this in the fluff. Everything from marines feeling desire to shower-room comments about their size. So the conclusion I've come to over the years (and this is entirely personal, but its the only way All the canon makes sense) is that all of the above is true. Its easy to see that many chapters are different; some are more human (salamanders), some are basically monsters-on-our-side (carcharodons), some are more laid back (space wolves), while others have a huge codex lodged so far up their ass they can read it by taste (ultramarnes), some are all about the incorruptable pure pureness (red scorpions) while others find strength in imperfection (black dragons). Just like there are exceptions to every rule and stereotypes are generally about as accurate as you can throw them, I think there is a very good chance that Chapters vary as much in this area as they do in others.

The most... personable chapter I'm aware of, the Salamanders, are extremely human, literally continue to live with their mortal families (sometimes many generations thereof) and dont stand apart at all from the communities they rule, if there was ever a Space marine with a actual wife (or friend-with-benefits), it would be a Salamander, but there is no fluff to suggest such a thing has ever happened, or even what their feelings on the subject might be. Space wolves are fully capable of appreciating the female form (and do) but cannonly consider such desires to be beneath them, they would rather drink, brawl and tell warstories than go wenching, but I'll eat my hat if its never happened (Hey, did you hear the one about the drunk bloodclaw and the raven haired huskaerl?). That said, I assume most chapters tend to follow a similar loop to the sororitas, they can, but the demands of their lifestyle (along with a heavy dose of Purpose and Honour) cause them to eschew such desires (even if the opportunity arouse where they could persue them comfortably). They are fully capable of the deed however.

And on the opposite end, i tend to assume the most puritanical/stuckup/arrogant/inhuman chapters practice some degree of gelding; be it psycho-conditioning (GKs have a childish squick towards all things sexual in the fluff, which is actually probably more effective than a flat block for countering slaaneshi's temptations now that i think of it), physical neutering (i would bet money that Red Scorpions do that at the very least), chem gelding, or some other process to KILL ALL DESIRE.

As for Space Marines and Sororitas getting together... I'm afraid the odds of that are vanishingly small, even compared to the odds of either of them getting together with anyone in general :P . Sororitas are puritanical humans, like the Ordo Hereticus, they often consider space marines to be aberrations, and untrustworthy, maybe even purge-worthy, for that alone. If one gets past that, theres also the long and unfortunate history between the two, even putting aside a certain Wardian bloodbath which is too silly to consider canon. The Sororitas are often screwed over by space marines with other priorities (which also happens often in the reverse, so both sides generally feel entitled to abandon the other if they feel like it by this point) and have been badly mauled by them directly on several occasions for various reasons.

For example, lesser known facet of that spat between the Space Wolves and Inquisition? The fact that it didnt stop after the Inquis fleet was sent running from Fenris like little bitches. The =I= did what it does best, it was a dick, and nudged the Ministorum to attack the Wolves next, and a mini-crusade of frateris, zealots and Sororitas was sent to purge the unclean Wolves. No one survived. Now, they obviously deserved that, but i doubt other Orders of the sister and those who knew the dead see it that way.

Of course, in Roleplay as in Fanfiction, anything is possible   ;D
« Last Edit: December 29, 2014, 12:58:54 PM by Darkling »

Offline HairyHeretic

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Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #753 on: December 29, 2014, 01:09:52 PM »
I don't remember the Ministorum having a go at the Wolves. Was that in any of the novels, or written up in a codex somewhere?

Offline ChaoticSky

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #754 on: December 29, 2014, 01:18:46 PM »
Look up 'The Fenris Incident', its detailed in the Champions of Fenris Supplement in the current Ed. Though it seems they have changed it since previous editions... i would have sworn there were mentions of frateris and such but Champions only mentions sororitas. It also mentions survivors.
« Last Edit: December 29, 2014, 01:20:09 PM by Darkling »

Offline CountessJess

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #755 on: December 29, 2014, 02:00:14 PM »
Oh wow, somebody else than me plays the Sisters!  ;D

So... you say that the penitent engine might need drilling. Any advice on how to do that?

Well, you get one of those hobby store drills, and you drill holes in the sides of the penitent engine where the arms are going to be attached. Then take the bits of the arms which are supposed to be attached to the body, and drill similar holes in them. Then you cut lengths of paper clip and stick them into the holes on the arms, using green stuff to help them stick in. Now with the pointy bits and the holes in the sides of your penitent engine combined, you put them in and apply more green stuff.

It's a bit difficult to write out the instructions - go look up some instructional vids on youtube about drilling your 40k models, it'll be much better than any explanation I can give you.

Some people would recommend magnets, but my experience is that the metal involved in the penitent engine is a bit too heavy and more often than not magnets themselves become unattached from their housing on the metal model too easily. Plastic's somewhat better for magnets.

In any case, good luck with fielding penitent engines on tabletop, they're horrible, which is a pity, because the model is pretty.

As for Space Marines and Sororitas getting together... I'm afraid the odds of that are vanishingly small, even compared to the odds of either of them getting together with anyone in general :P . Sororitas are puritanical humans, like the Ordo Hereticus, they often consider space marines to be aberrations, and untrustworthy, maybe even purge-worthy, for that alone. If one gets past that, theres also the long and unfortunate history between the two, even putting aside a certain Wardian bloodbath which is too silly to consider canon. The Sororitas are often screwed over by space marines with other priorities (which also happens often in the reverse, so both sides generally feel entitled to abandon the other if they feel like it by this point) and have been badly mauled by them directly on several occasions for various reasons.

For example, lesser known facet of that spat between the Space Wolves and Inquisition? The fact that it didnt stop after the Inquis fleet was sent running from Fenris like little bitches. The =I= did what it does best, it was a dick, and nudged the Ministorum to attack the Wolves next, and a mini-crusade of frateris, zealots and Sororitas was sent to purge the unclean Wolves. No one survived. Now, they obviously deserved that, but i doubt other Orders of the sister and those who knew the dead see it that way.

The Fenris Incident took place when the Ecclesiarchy (not the inquisition) wanted to investigate reports that the Space Wolves were worshipping false gods on Fenrir (which considering their obsession with wolves and wolves and more wolves, would be somewhat suspicious). The Space Wolves, being the stubborn people that they are, told them to yiff off, and the Ecclesiarchy said no, and the Space Wolves yiffed them with orbital lances. I believe this is the bit where the lines are blurred between Codex: Witch Hunters and Codex: Adepta Sororitas, because back in 4th Edition, it was very, very clear that the Adepta Sororitas were part of the Ecclesiarchy and had no formal links with the Ordo Hereticus - IIRC the Inquisition doesn't play a major role in the Fenris Incident at all, the Fenris Incident was almost entirely Ecclesiarchy.

So, what happens, is that the Ecclesiarchy sends three orders of the Adepta Sororitas to press their case (because blowing up an erstwhile ally's cruiser makes the Space Wolf position look a little more suspicious than it did previously). They land, durdle with the Space Wolves for a while, then oddly enough, for reasons that are never explained, not even in the Space Wolf codex (afaik 5th edition never did), the Ecclesiarchy pack up and leave. The whole incident's a bit odd - there's no mention of the extent of Sister, or Space Wolf casualties, so we've no idea if it was that the sisters were taking a beating or the Space Wolves made their peace behind the scenes. You'd imagine that an incident that appears only in the Space Wolf supplement/codex, they'd make their faction seem super cool and strong, but they don't for this one.

Offline BeorningTopic starter

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #756 on: December 29, 2014, 02:57:43 PM »
Lots of interesting info there, folks :) Although I thought that the Sisters *were* celibate?

And CountessJess, thanks for the advice on drilling! I'll try using glue only first, but I suspect that drilling might turn out to be necessary...

Offline ChaoticSky

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #757 on: December 29, 2014, 03:31:32 PM »
Quote
The Fenris Incident took place when the Ecclesiarchy (not the inquisition) wanted to investigate reports that the Space Wolves were worshipping false gods on Fenrir (which considering their obsession with wolves and wolves and more wolves, would be somewhat suspicious). The Space Wolves, being the stubborn people that they are, told them to yiff off, and the Ecclesiarchy said no, and the Space Wolves yiffed them with orbital lances. I believe this is the bit where the lines are blurred between Codex: Witch Hunters and Codex: Adepta Sororitas, because back in 4th Edition, it was very, very clear that the Adepta Sororitas were part of the Ecclesiarchy and had no formal links with the Ordo Hereticus - IIRC the Inquisition doesn't play a major role in the Fenris Incident at all, the Fenris Incident was almost entirely Ecclesiarchy.

So, what happens, is that the Ecclesiarchy sends three orders of the Adepta Sororitas to press their case (because blowing up an erstwhile ally's cruiser makes the Space Wolf position look a little more suspicious than it did previously). They land, durdle with the Space Wolves for a while, then oddly enough, for reasons that are never explained, not even in the Space Wolf codex (afaik 5th edition never did), the Ecclesiarchy pack up and leave. The whole incident's a bit odd - there's no mention of the extent of Sister, or Space Wolf casualties, so we've no idea if it was that the sisters were taking a beating or the Space Wolves made their peace behind the scenes. You'd imagine that an incident that appears only in the Space Wolf supplement/codex, they'd make their faction seem super cool and strong, but they don't for this one.
Aha, but where did those reports come from :P ? The Inquisition's spat with Fenris in the current canon is very heavily implied to have turned into a very very long term cold war aimed at weakening the Wolves in various ways. They do their wolf thing for eight thousand years without serious issue, then only a couple centuries later suddenly the Ecclesiarchy gets 'reports' of deviant behaviour? And then decides on the suicidally insane course of action to challenge them about it, flying the face of literal millennia of Astartes independence, non-worship of the Emperor, and tolerating wildly divergent chapter cults.

Also, your reading seem abit different than mine. The Ecclesiarchy showed up, and demanded the Wolves throw open the Fang to them so they could interrogate every serf and space marine. The Wolves told them to bugger off, and they tried to force-dock with the Fang's spaceport. So the Wolves blew it out of the sky. It says the war lasts three weeks after the sororitas turn up. Three weeks on Fenris alone would have killed people, three weeks of void warfare would have killed more, and if they assaulted the Fang its self at any point the Wolves would not have hesitated to turn its guns on them, or their's. This is also during Logan Grimnar's time, and he is really not fond of imperial institutions, and quite blatantly not the type to answer this any way other than with a bolt round.

This is 40k, assuming a war had no casualties is kinda bonkers o.O

@ Beo. Nope, or rather, they have no vows enforcing such.
« Last Edit: December 29, 2014, 03:33:27 PM by Darkling »

Offline HairyHeretic

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Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #758 on: December 29, 2014, 03:37:39 PM »
Plus the Wolves have Bjorn the Fell Handed. It may be a bit difficult to argue the whole God Emperor thing when you've got someone who was walking around at the same time as him, and may well have met him at some point.

Online TheGlyphstone

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #759 on: December 29, 2014, 03:43:38 PM »
Now if only he could remember any of it...

Offline ChaoticSky

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #760 on: December 29, 2014, 03:56:10 PM »
Plus the Wolves have Bjorn the Fell Handed. It may be a bit difficult to argue the whole God Emperor thing when you've got someone who was walking around at the same time as him, and may well have met him at some point.
To quote;
"You walked in the Age of The Emperor?"
"Walked, ran, pissed and killed. I did it all. I met the Allfather, you know. Fought at his side more than once. I do believe he liked me."


His memory is just fine  :P

Online TheGlyphstone

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #761 on: December 29, 2014, 04:05:38 PM »
Don't they keep him in stasis because he's going senile, and only pull him out for the huge party at the start of each century?

Offline ChaoticSky

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #762 on: December 29, 2014, 04:15:25 PM »
Don't they keep him in stasis because he's going senile, and only pull him out for the huge party at the start of each century?
Thats mostly fanon, or to be more specific: /tg fanon. According to them (and no one else) Bjorn is pissed at being woken up to tell stories about Russ over and over and over again and so acts increasingly senile so they will leave him alone and stop asking him to repeat the same stories over and over.

In canon, he is merely believed to be too important and too revered to bother with most things, so they let him sleep, and wake him up when the Fang is attacked, Shit Happens, or for that celebration every century. There is no indication in any source that hes loosing his mind, infact, he is incredibly stable as far as Dreads go, and remains both shockingly lucid and feisty.

Offline HairyHeretic

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Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #763 on: December 29, 2014, 04:19:40 PM »
There's another Bjorn quote, I think from one of the Grey Knights novels, when the Wolves and the =I= are having their face off, some Inquisitor makes a 'God Emperor' comment, and Bjorns response is along the lines of "It was worshiping him as a God that started all that trouble in the first place.", which I think was refering to the Word Bearers, pre Heresy.

Offline CountessJess

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #764 on: December 29, 2014, 04:42:05 PM »
Aha, but where did those reports come from :P ? The Inquisition's spat with Fenris in the current canon is very heavily implied to have turned into a very very long term cold war aimed at weakening the Wolves in various ways. They do their wolf thing for eight thousand years without serious issue, then only a couple centuries later suddenly the Ecclesiarchy gets 'reports' of deviant behaviour? And then decides on the suicidally insane course of action to challenge them about it, flying the face of literal millennia of Astartes independence, non-worship of the Emperor, and tolerating wildly divergent chapter cults.

Also, your reading seem abit different than mine. The Ecclesiarchy showed up, and demanded the Wolves throw open the Fang to them so they could interrogate every serf and space marine. The Wolves told them to bugger off, and they tried to force-dock with the Fang's spaceport. So the Wolves blew it out of the sky. It says the war lasts three weeks after the sororitas turn up. Three weeks on Fenris alone would have killed people, three weeks of void warfare would have killed more, and if they assaulted the Fang its self at any point the Wolves would not have hesitated to turn its guns on them, or their's. This is also during Logan Grimnar's time, and he is really not fond of imperial institutions, and quite blatantly not the type to answer this any way other than with a bolt round.

This is 40k, assuming a war had no casualties is kinda bonkers o.O

@ Beo. Nope, or rather, they have no vows enforcing such.


There's no suggestion in the entire fluff that the Fenris incident was caused by the inquisition drip-feeding information to the Ecclesiarchy. While the Inquisition has had the 'cold war' thing with the Space Wolves ever since the First War of Armageddon, that's certainly not a reason to draw any connection with that - after all, the inquisition often comes to blows with the Ecclesiarchy as well. Fluffwise the Ecclesiarchy has enough resources and people to go and find information like that, in any case - they call for crusades and nonsense like that ever so often, and Ecclesiarchal Confessors and Witch Finders fulfil that investigative roll pretty well.  And while Astartes independence is there, the Sisters of Battle were, especially in the 2nd Edition codex, supposed to the be go-to army in investigating and quelling Space Marine divergence. There's not much evidence of that left any more, which seems to suggest that GW is dropping that line of story, but when the Fenris Incident fluff first appeared, it was very much a thing.

Blowing up an ecclesiarchal envoy seems to be a bit excessive - and certainly a bit silly, because it's not going to make the problem go away. Perhaps it highlights the manly shooty feral thingamajig that the space wolves have, but still. I'm not quite sure what you're trying to say here, because in my opinion, Space Wolf emotional overreaction, 'shoot first, ask questions later' is obviously what GW writers were going for. And them not liking the Ministorum is not a reason for the Ministorum to not investigate them in the first place...I mean, yeah, they might have Bjorn, but they also have stuff like the Wolf of Fenris battle, where some Space Wolves ended up pledging allegiance to Chaos. It's not like they're completely without suspicion.

So yeah, while the Space Wolves are space marines, they're obviously not above suspicion, especially by the faction that's partially supposed to investigate them. Shooting their investigators is hardly supportive to the Imperial war effort, even if Logan Grimnar doesn't like them, and they have fallen to Chaos, after all. To me, the entire Fenris incident extemporises the unreliability and childishness of the Space Wolves, not their awesomeness or super cool manliness.

Offline ChaoticSky

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #765 on: December 30, 2014, 12:04:04 PM »

There's no suggestion in the entire fluff that the Fenris incident was caused by the inquisition drip-feeding information to the Ecclesiarchy. While the Inquisition has had the 'cold war' thing with the Space Wolves ever since the First War of Armageddon, that's certainly not a reason to draw any connection with that - after all, the inquisition often comes to blows with the Ecclesiarchy as well. Fluffwise the Ecclesiarchy has enough resources and people to go and find information like that, in any case - they call for crusades and nonsense like that ever so often, and Ecclesiarchal Confessors and Witch Finders fulfil that investigative roll pretty well.  And while Astartes independence is there, the Sisters of Battle were, especially in the 2nd Edition codex, supposed to the be go-to army in investigating and quelling Space Marine divergence. There's not much evidence of that left any more, which seems to suggest that GW is dropping that line of story, but when the Fenris Incident fluff first appeared, it was very much a thing.

Blowing up an ecclesiarchal envoy seems to be a bit excessive - and certainly a bit silly, because it's not going to make the problem go away. Perhaps it highlights the manly shooty feral thingamajig that the space wolves have, but still. I'm not quite sure what you're trying to say here, because in my opinion, Space Wolf emotional overreaction, 'shoot first, ask questions later' is obviously what GW writers were going for. And them not liking the Ministorum is not a reason for the Ministorum to not investigate them in the first place...I mean, yeah, they might have Bjorn, but they also have stuff like the Wolf of Fenris battle, where some Space Wolves ended up pledging allegiance to Chaos. It's not like they're completely without suspicion.

So yeah, while the Space Wolves are space marines, they're obviously not above suspicion, especially by the faction that's partially supposed to investigate them. Shooting their investigators is hardly supportive to the Imperial war effort, even if Logan Grimnar doesn't like them, and they have fallen to Chaos, after all. To me, the entire Fenris incident extemporises the unreliability and childishness of the Space Wolves, not their awesomeness or super cool manliness.
Specifically? No, but it is suggested that everything bad that happens to them is part of a long term Inquisition plot. The Fenris Incident is often pointed to as one of the most likely things to have been caused by them, along with other minor things, a squad goes missing here, the geneseed of fallen brothers is found desecrated there, re-enforcements dont show up over there, etc. There is even a short story or two dealing with the cold-war; with Inquisition assassins hunting a lone Spacewolf, and on the flipside, Wolves punking a hidden Inquisition interrogation-prison.

Aside from the fact they have no authority over the Wolves? Like, none at all, neither on paper nor informally. The Astartes pre-date The Creed, let alone the Ecclesiarchy, and the Inquisition too. They are autonomous, like Mars is. They mostly deal with matters of treason internally, and many Chapters get openly offended at the idea of the Inquisition passing judgement on Astartes. It still happens, but only in the most extreme, outlying and dickish cases. If at all possible, they use a bootlicking Chapter to carry out the actual sentence, because the Inquisition descending on a Chapterworld would set off a bigger shitstorm than they want to deal with. To quote a wiser sod than I from another forum: "Astartes legions (and later Chapters) are fraternal religio-military orders more akin to the knightly orders of the middle ages than a 21st century military. This means that their loyalties are expressed in terms of debts of honour, ceremonial ritual and fealty rather than a CoC. Their duties are bound by custom, ceremony and archaic practice rather than orders." Few Chapters consider the Inquisition to be their masters, and vanishingly fewer would have tolerated the Ministorum butting in to their affairs like that. And the Wolves have more reason than most to shun such.

Helping the war effort? Right. Because a Imperium shattering Civil War would be so much better. And that is what would happen if anyone seriously pressed the Wolves. Half the reason the Inquisition pushed so hard was because they needed them to surrender, because if the fighting went on, other Chapters would have flocked to their banner. Likely other First Founding Chapters, which would have dragged in their Successors. Most Astartes look down upon any chapter that willingly serves as lapdogs for the Inquisition or other Imperial body, far more would have sided with the wolves, especially once the story of why they were fighting spread. Hell, the GK call their Inquisition-ordered campaign against the Wolves "The Year of Shame" or something like that because they are fucking ashamed of it, and they told the Lord Inquisitor that to this face.

Imagine the Heresy, but with the split 16-2 instead of 9-9. Thats what the Inquisition eventually fled to avoid, and what the Ministorum would have bumbled into if the Wolves took them seriously or they didnt back off, i doubt they even woke up Bjorn for that.

Ultimately, you seem to be labouring on the misunderstanding that the Ecclesiarchy are some how in the moral position here. The 'good guys' as it were. They are not. The vast majority of the God Emperor's preisthood are secular, greedy, hedonistic, politicing, backstabbing ladderclimbers, they did not go to Fenris out of concern, moral, spiritual, or otherwise. Even putting aside the role the inquisition may or may not have played in the Incident, the best case scenario is that some trumped up cardinal thought he could gain political credit for bringing the wild sons of Russ to heel. Seriously, these guys make a certain real-world religious organization with habitual corruption and child molestation look positively saintly by comparison. And basically all the genuinely good priests? They get pushed into Missionary work, ministering to IG regiments, small local churches, and any other hole the higher ups can find so that they dont get in the way of them enjoying their power.

Its got nothing to do with 'manliness', it has everything to do with Honour. Wolves have it, while i sincerely doubt a dozen priests could scrape up enough honour between them to be worthy of shining their boots. Because when it comes down to it, the Wolves would save you from anything, even the Imperium, and the Ecclesiarchy would happily trip you up in the hope that the monster would eat you while they waddled away.
« Last Edit: December 30, 2014, 12:14:24 PM by Darkling »

Online TheGlyphstone

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #766 on: December 30, 2014, 12:06:37 PM »
You're a Space Wolves fan, aren't you? ;D Just getting a vague, very subtle hint of it so far.

Offline ChaoticSky

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #767 on: December 30, 2014, 12:18:45 PM »
You're a Space Wolves fan, aren't you? ;D Just getting a vague, very subtle hint of it so far.
Actually, I'm a huge Salamanders fan. The Wolves are third on my list after the Black Dragons.

But I do loath the Ecclesiarchy, the Fenris Incidient is probably one of the more madly asinine things they have done in their entire asinine history.

That said, I am subtle as a Thunderhammer and proud of it.  ;D
« Last Edit: December 30, 2014, 12:24:37 PM by Darkling »

Online TheGlyphstone

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #768 on: December 30, 2014, 12:32:16 PM »
Salamanders are best chapter, yes. :D

Offline CountessJess

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #769 on: December 30, 2014, 12:53:46 PM »
I'm not suggesting anything that's not in the fluff. As I've said, the Space Wolves may have been around for a long time, but they aren't above suspicion - their loss of the strike cruiser Wolf of Fenris in the Badab war and the turning of several squads on board that strike cruiser suggests weakness and deviance, and chapters have been purged for less. Sure, there might be bad blood and a cold war between the Space Wolves and the Inquisition after the First War of Armageddon and the Months of Shame, but again, there is no evidence, literally nothing, nada, nuts that suggests that the inquisition was involved in the Fenris incident. Every piece of information (which is very scanty in the first place) that GW has produced on the Fenris Incident has not mentioned the Inquisition at all.

Like it or not, just because the Space Wolves have been around for a long time doesn't mean that they're above suspicion. And if you want to go back to Horus Heresy lineage, the Inquisition was supposedly commissioned by the Emperor himself following Horus' betrayal, as he sought 12 individuals who were beyond reproach. These people would go on to form the original lord inquisitors and the first Grey Knights. So while the Astartes predate the Inquisition, the Emperor's chosen people who would form the Inquisition itself were supposed to be purer and more loyal than the Astartes themselves. Kind of invalidates your point that the inquisition has no power or authority to question an Astartes' chapter's purity.

And the quote you mentioned:

"Astartes legions (and later Chapters) are fraternal religio-military orders more akin to the knightly orders of the middle ages than a 21st century military. This means that their loyalties are expressed in terms of debts of honour, ceremonial ritual and fealty rather than a CoC. Their duties are bound by custom, ceremony and archaic practice rather than orders."

That must have come from someone who has no idea of knightly orders during the medieval period at all. Knightly orders in the middle ages answered to the Pope first and foremost - in the 40k universe the closest approximation is the Ecclesiarch. Whether it's the Knights Templar, or the Teutonic Knights, or the Knights Hospitaller, all of them were papal institutions that owed allegiance to Rome. In fact, the Knights Hospitaller still exists, remaining loyal to the Vatican to the present day. So if you're trying to find a precedent in historical concepts of military orders, you're not going to find any vindication for your concept of the Astartes legions.

Regardless I could go on about the inaccuracies about your depiction of the inquisition, but that's not what the issue is about, it's about the Ecclesiarchy. Now, while I agree with you that the Ecclesiarchal envoys were pigheaded and dumb for trying to force the docking above Fenris, I can't imagine anyone thinking the right response was to blow them out of the sky. I mean, surely that's a bit much? I mean, it's like the Trade Federation blowing up the Jedi's diplomatic cruiser at the beginning of Episode 1. It's that level of ridiculousness. And disregarding your obvious bias against the real world comparison with the Catholic Church (I'm not Catholic, but I think it's mean spirited and unfair for you to focus on the few cases of child molestation while ignoring that fact that the Catholic Church is the largest provider of aid and welfare in the entire world, whose humanitarian missions are amongst the most comprehensive and least discriminatory, and provides a platform for international discussion and negotiation. Comparing them to the Ecclesiarchy in 40k is incredibly unfair.)

The Ecclesiarchy, from what I see, and from what the fluff seems to suggest, represents what most of the Imperial bureaucracy is - large, overbearing, inefficient, but only so out of necessity. The sheer scale of what the Ecclesiarchy has to cover makes it very difficult to ensure incorruptibility and efficiency - it must be nice as a single chapter of what, 12,000 marines, to claim efficiency, and look down on an organization that encompasses billions upon billions of people, and say you're so much better at managing resources. Sure, there's a lot of politicking, and corruption, and graft, but there's also a lot of orphanages, schools, I mean, they run the Schola Progenium and provide escorts for the multitudes of pilgrims as well. And remember, this is the 40k universe, where holy water, purity seals and prayers actually do work, which provides another important aspect to the role of the Ecclesiarchy.

Again, it's not so much about doubting the Space Wolf's purity - even though the Ecclesiarchy, or the Inquisition, for that matter, has every reason to doubt, it's kind of like, their job, to doubt such things, and the Space Wolf experience in the Badab war has been suspect. But if your concept of 'honour' is blowing up your erstwhile allies when they were being overzealous in doing their job, and then thinking that it's unfair when they come back with military force, I think you should think again.

Offline ChaoticSky

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #770 on: December 30, 2014, 05:01:17 PM »
I had to break this up because it would have gotten confusing to answer everything in here in a block.

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I'm not suggesting anything that's not in the fluff. As I've said, the Space Wolves may have been around for a long time, but they aren't above suspicion - their loss of the strike cruiser Wolf of Fenris in the Badab war and the turning of several squads on board that strike cruiser suggests weakness and deviance, and chapters have been purged for less. Sure, there might be bad blood and a cold war between the Space Wolves and the Inquisition after the First War of Armageddon and the Months of Shame, but again, there is no evidence, literally nothing, nada, nuts that suggests that the inquisition was involved in the Fenris incident. Every piece of information (which is very scanty in the first place) that GW has produced on the Fenris Incident has not mentioned the Inquisition at all.
Infact, chapters have not been purged for less, most chapters have some blacksheep who turn every now and then, and if you think the Space Wolves dont want to kill those traitors more than the Inquisition does, you are sadly mistaken. Hell, through sheer averages, I'm willing to bet there are more traitors on Guiliman's line than Russ's due to how common his geneseed is. Hell, there are fallen GKs in the fluff now.

There is also the whole fact that the Badab War started decades after the Fenris Incident, which kinda blows a big hole in the idea that the Wolves had somehow proven themselves to be suspicious for something they had not yet done.

And thats also kind of the point, we dont know exactly what the Inquisition has been doing behind the scenes to hurt the Wolves, all we know is that they are doing it. Being randomly assaulted by the Ecclesiarchy seems like a pretty big shoe-in, saying there is no proof that the Inquisition(of all things) did it is no counter argument at all.

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Like it or not, just because the Space Wolves have been around for a long time doesn't mean that they're above suspicion. And if you want to go back to Horus Heresy lineage, the Inquisition was supposedly commissioned by the Emperor himself following Horus' betrayal, as he sought 12 individuals who were beyond reproach. These people would go on to form the original lord inquisitors and the first Grey Knights. So while the Astartes predate the Inquisition, the Emperor's chosen people who would form the Inquisition itself were supposed to be purer and more loyal than the Astartes themselves. Kind of invalidates your point that the inquisition has no power or authority to question an Astartes' chapter's purity.
That is but one story (there is at leased three currently-canon stories shared with us, and implications of there being dozens more in-setting) of how the Inquisition was founded, and its by far the most self-serving one. I would say that makes it even more worthless than the assumption that the Incident was the work of the Inquisition. Oh why yes! We were totally chosen by the emperor for our incorruptible pure pureness. Said every Inquisitor whos gone bad ever.

And now that I think of it, there are more traitors in the Inquisition's glorious history by a loooong shot than confirmed Space Wolf defections. Hell, than Astartes defections entirely I'd wager, including the Heresy! Who needs purging now?

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And the quote you mentioned:

"Astartes legions (and later Chapters) are fraternal religio-military orders more akin to the knightly orders of the middle ages than a 21st century military. This means that their loyalties are expressed in terms of debts of honour, ceremonial ritual and fealty rather than a CoC. Their duties are bound by custom, ceremony and archaic practice rather than orders."

That must have come from someone who has no idea of knightly orders during the medieval period at all. Knightly orders in the middle ages answered to the Pope first and foremost - in the 40k universe the closest approximation is the Ecclesiarch. Whether it's the Knights Templar, or the Teutonic Knights, or the Knights Hospitaller, all of them were papal institutions that owed allegiance to Rome. In fact, the Knights Hospitaller still exists, remaining loyal to the Vatican to the present day. So if you're trying to find a precedent in historical concepts of military orders, you're not going to find any vindication for your concept of the Astartes legions.
It was a metaphor, and one that was accurate to the point I was making... a point which you arnt actually countering, just talking around. Unless your trying to make your case that the Astartes are somehow under the authority of the Ecclesiarch. To resolve my metaphor, the Legions (and now Chapters) owe their Fealty to the Emperor himself, not the Imperium. The High Lords (and by extension, the rest of the Imperium) only have so much as sway over the Astartes as they can politely request (which is how most dealings with them are done, Astartes live to fight, asking them to fight is not a difficult thing to do), or compel through honour, oath, or duty. For example, many Chapters have exchanged oaths in place to defend nearby Forge Worlds, and in turn they are supplied with the equipment they need to persecute the enemies of Man.

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Regardless I could go on about the inaccuracies about your depiction of the inquisition, but that's not what the issue is about, it's about the Ecclesiarchy. Now, while I agree with you that the Ecclesiarchal envoys were pigheaded and dumb for trying to force the docking above Fenris, I can't imagine anyone thinking the right response was to blow them out of the sky. I mean, surely that's a bit much? I mean, it's like the Trade Federation blowing up the Jedi's diplomatic cruiser at the beginning of Episode 1. It's that level of ridiculousness.
Oh do tell~

I really dont think so, if someone tries to beat down your door and threaten you, you have a few options to deal with it; you can call for help (and who would any Chapter have called in that case?) or you can take their block off. The Trade Federation is not exactly a good example, since they were actually blockading a planet that wasn't their's and were up to all kinds of illegal stuff. While the Space Wolves are not up to anything bad. That said, what would you have preferred them to do? I cant imagine there wasnt a warning shot involved, and thats basically the only three options you have when it comes to voidships; telling them off, a warning shot, and then shooting them. Its not like they could have targeted the engines or something, that would have just got the faffers stuck in their space.

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And disregarding your obvious bias against the real world comparison with the Catholic Church (I'm not Catholic, but I think it's mean spirited and unfair for you to focus on the few cases of child molestation while ignoring that fact that the Catholic Church is the largest provider of aid and welfare in the entire world, whose humanitarian missions are amongst the most comprehensive and least discriminatory, and provides a platform for international discussion and negotiation. Comparing them to the Ecclesiarchy in 40k is incredibly unfair.)
Hey hey, way to name names :P besides, I said they were saintly in comparison to the Ecclesiarchy, are you protesting on the grounds you think they are not? I wouldnt go that far, sure they have all kinds of issues these days, but they are not nearly that bad! Really!

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The Ecclesiarchy, from what I see, and from what the fluff seems to suggest, represents what most of the Imperial bureaucracy is - large, overbearing, inefficient, but only so out of necessity. The sheer scale of what the Ecclesiarchy has to cover makes it very difficult to ensure incorruptibility and efficiency - it must be nice as a single chapter of what, 12,000 marines, to claim efficiency, and look down on an organization that encompasses billions upon billions of people, and say you're so much better at managing resources. Sure, there's a lot of politicking, and corruption, and graft, but there's also a lot of orphanages, schools, I mean, they run the Schola Progenium and provide escorts for the multitudes of pilgrims as well. And remember, this is the 40k universe, where holy water, purity seals and prayers actually do work, which provides another important aspect to the role of the Ecclesiarchy.
1000 marines under the Codex. Though the Wolves care not for Guiliman's twiddle, I do belive the current edition just lists 'no one knows' for the current number of Wolves. But i think it was between 2-3k in previous editions.

That said, its not so much the bureaucracy that I'm arguing against, I expect it, its 40k after all, my position is that the Ecclesiarchy is systemically corrupt. Not merely occasionally or inept. And theres plenty of examples of extreme corruption at the heights of power in the Ecclesiarchy, and few to no examples of the reverse. This actually shows up in the RPG; Missionaries have Pure Faith (and the attending Miracle-style Faith Talents), as do Sororitas, but Clerics by default do not, because they are assumed to be the same secular tripe as most of the Ecclesiarchy.  It also folds neatly into your point above, blessed gear is bloody hard to get in 40k... but you cant walk down the street in the Imperium without tripping over a gold-plated priest or cleric....  something isnt adding up there.

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Again, it's not so much about doubting the Space Wolf's purity - even though the Ecclesiarchy, or the Inquisition, for that matter, has every reason to doubt, it's kind of like, their job, to doubt such things, and the Space Wolf experience in the Badab war has been suspect. But if your concept of 'honour' is blowing up your erstwhile allies when they were being overzealous in doing their job, and then thinking that it's unfair when they come back with military force, I think you should think again.
Most of this is answered above (badab happened after, etc), but I'm pretty sure 'Ally' is a title that the Wolves bestow on those who fight at their side, and decidedly not people who show up and try to knock the door down. I wouldnt. Would you?

*whew* that took some work, god this is fun though, been a while since I could talk shop with someone.

Online TheGlyphstone

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #771 on: December 30, 2014, 06:52:03 PM »
It is fun, though I also think we need to dig out the wading boots and snorkels before it's too late.

Offline ChaoticSky

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #772 on: December 30, 2014, 07:00:08 PM »
It is fun, though I also think we need to dig out the wading boots and snorkels before it's too late.
Really now, the blood isnt going to get so high you need a snorkel. :P

Offline NotoriusBEN

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #773 on: December 31, 2014, 12:22:52 AM »
christ, its gotta be the closest thing to a living val halla for Bjorn... Party, Fight, Stasis until the next go around. No lull at all from his perspective, just close door, open door.

and yes, I'm with those of you that hate the Inquisition and the Ecchlesiarchy. Such BS from the both of them.
I know I've linked this guy before, but his Emperor with a Vox Box is just too on the nose awesome and true.

About the Age of Apostacy and Ecchlesiarchy
Spoiler: Click to Show/Hide


About the Inquisition
Spoiler: Click to Show/Hide

Offline CountessJess

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #774 on: December 31, 2014, 04:14:00 AM »
Really now, the blood isnt going to get so high you need a snorkel. :P

Yes, Exterminatus doesn't tend to leave behind blood =P

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Infact, chapters have not been purged for less, most chapters have some blacksheep who turn every now and then, and if you think the Space Wolves dont want to kill those traitors more than the Inquisition does, you are sadly mistaken. Hell, through sheer averages, I'm willing to bet there are more traitors on Guiliman's line than Russ's due to how common his geneseed is. Hell, there are fallen GKs in the fluff now.

There is also the whole fact that the Badab War started decades after the Fenris Incident, which kinda blows a big hole in the idea that the Wolves had somehow proven themselves to be suspicious for something they had not yet done.

And thats also kind of the point, we dont know exactly what the Inquisition has been doing behind the scenes to hurt the Wolves, all we know is that they are doing it. Being randomly assaulted by the Ecclesiarchy seems like a pretty big shoe-in, saying there is no proof that the Inquisition(of all things) did it is no counter argument at all.

Fallen Grey Knights? Now this is new fluff that I've not heard of before. Do elaborate.

My mentioning of the Badab War is just to demonstrate that the Space Wolves aren't as incorruptible or pure as you seem to think they are. They aren't above being investigated by the organization whose job it is to maintain purity - the Ecclesiarchy controls the army that's traditionally used to hunt down errant chapters, after all. Being randomly selected by the Ecclesiarchy doesn't mean that the Inquisition were behind it - it could be a number of different things. Innocent until proven guilty, after all - the inquisition in real life coined that phrase, and actually followed it.

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That is but one story (there is at leased three currently-canon stories shared with us, and implications of there being dozens more in-setting) of how the Inquisition was founded, and its by far the most self-serving one. I would say that makes it even more worthless than the assumption that the Incident was the work of the Inquisition. Oh why yes! We were totally chosen by the emperor for our incorruptible pure pureness. Said every Inquisitor whos gone bad ever.

And now that I think of it, there are more traitors in the Inquisition's glorious history by a loooong shot than confirmed Space Wolf defections. Hell, than Astartes defections entirely I'd wager, including the Heresy! Who needs purging now?

The story that Malcador the Sigilite formed the kernel of the Inquisition on the orders of the Emperor is probably the most heavily confirmed story we have right now - it's right out of the Horus Heresy series, which incidentally, isn't written from the viewpoint of the Inquisition. So I think it's by far the most relevant origin that we can consider.

And regarding the fact that there are more traitors in the Inquisition than the Space Wolves - yes, I'd agree with you that. But the Inquisition's work also open their members up to corruption far, far more than the Space Wolves - they're actively involved in fighting daemons and Chaos cults and all sorts of corruptive influences, whereas the Space Wolves fight a lot of other enemies besides Chaos. Also, they are often purged already - the Ordo Hereticus exists primarily to purge the inquisition now and again of heretical influences.

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It was a metaphor, and one that was accurate to the point I was making... a point which you arnt actually countering, just talking around. Unless your trying to make your case that the Astartes are somehow under the authority of the Ecclesiarch. To resolve my metaphor, the Legions (and now Chapters) owe their Fealty to the Emperor himself, not the Imperium. The High Lords (and by extension, the rest of the Imperium) only have so much as sway over the Astartes as they can politely request (which is how most dealings with them are done, Astartes live to fight, asking them to fight is not a difficult thing to do), or compel through honour, oath, or duty. For example, many Chapters have exchanged oaths in place to defend nearby Forge Worlds, and in turn they are supplied with the equipment they need to persecute the enemies of Man.

The point was inaccurate as it could possibly be - and no, I'm not suggesting that the Astartes are under the authority of the Ecclesiarch. I'm suggesting that the Astartes are not a military order in the medieval sense of the word, and your comparison to the Knights Templar or any other military order was false. I'm calling out the inaccuracies in the comparison, and I think it should be abandoned completely.

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I really dont think so, if someone tries to beat down your door and threaten you, you have a few options to deal with it; you can call for help (and who would any Chapter have called in that case?) or you can take their block off. The Trade Federation is not exactly a good example, since they were actually blockading a planet that wasn't their's and were up to all kinds of illegal stuff. While the Space Wolves are not up to anything bad. That said, what would you have preferred them to do? I cant imagine there wasnt a warning shot involved, and thats basically the only three options you have when it comes to voidships; telling them off, a warning shot, and then shooting them. Its not like they could have targeted the engines or something, that would have just got the faffers stuck in their space.

The Trade Federation thingy was a bad example, I admit. But still, this isn't America, with the Space Wolves trying to apply the Castle Doctrine to people who are trying to rob them. This is more like the UN sending nuclear weapons inspectors to a rogue state. And in real life, the rogue state never, ever has ended up blowing them up. They've denied them entry, detained them, sent them packing, or shown them around fake facilities, but never actually gone and killed them. And even rogue state which don't have WMDs (e.g. Iraq under Saddam) have treated the weapons inspectors with respect and dignity, not blown them up. Now, if you want to say that in the 41st Millennium the Space Wolves are less trustworthy than Saddam Hussein, well, that's your prerogative. They could have easily impounded the Ecclesiarchy envoy vessel onboard the station, detained the representatives, appealed to the High Lords of Terra, entered negotiations, and a thousand other things. Instead, orbital lances. If that doesn't suggest they're hiding something, I don't know what it suggests.

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Hey hey, way to name names :P besides, I said they were saintly in comparison to the Ecclesiarchy, are you protesting on the grounds you think they are not? I wouldnt go that far, sure they have all kinds of issues these days, but they are not nearly that bad! Really!

I was calling you out for labeling the Catholic Church as a bunch of horrible people afflicted with 'habitual corruption and child molestation', to use your words. Disregarding our discussion for a moment, I was trying to make the point that calling them corrupt pedophiles is immensely unfair to the organization, which has done far more than nearly any other aid organization in providing aid. In my opinion, you shouldn't even have brought them into the discussion, especially if you were going to throw this kind of disingenuous barb at them.

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1000 marines under the Codex. Though the Wolves care not for Guiliman's twiddle, I do belive the current edition just lists 'no one knows' for the current number of Wolves. But i think it was between 2-3k in previous editions.

That said, its not so much the bureaucracy that I'm arguing against, I expect it, its 40k after all, my position is that the Ecclesiarchy is systemically corrupt. Not merely occasionally or inept. And theres plenty of examples of extreme corruption at the heights of power in the Ecclesiarchy, and few to no examples of the reverse. This actually shows up in the RPG; Missionaries have Pure Faith (and the attending Miracle-style Faith Talents), as do Sororitas, but Clerics by default do not, because they are assumed to be the same secular tripe as most of the Ecclesiarchy.  It also folds neatly into your point above, blessed gear is bloody hard to get in 40k... but you cant walk down the street in the Imperium without tripping over a gold-plated priest or cleric....  something isnt adding up there.

From what I remember from my reading of the Space Wolves 5th Edition codex, it was ~1000 marines per Great Company, for ~12,000 in total...but you seem to have a greater grasp on Space Wolves and all that, so I'll defer on this point to you.

I agree with you, that corruption is endemic in the Ecclesiarchy - but I think that's symptomatic of all massive, galaxy spanning organizations with huge resource and manpower requirements. The Ecclesiarchy is generally speaking made up of normal men and women, with all the same problems if you invest them with lots of power and authority - there's going to be cronyism and corruption. Yet, the Ministorum fulfils a purpose that the Space Wolves cannot, after all. An orphan living on a spire in Bumfuck V in the Segmentum Tempestus knows that he's going to die of hunger and there's nothing that the Space Wolves can do, but because of the Ecclesiarchy running the local orphanage and halfway house, he's not going to starve to death. Or a pilgrim ship on a pilgrimage route knows that it's going to be safe from pirates because of the Frateris Militia vessel escorting it, but the Space Wolves can hardly be around to look after each pilgrim vessel, can it? Are the Space Wolves going to provide local preachers to keep the Imperium's citizens faithful to the God Emperor and not distracted by the lures of Chaos cultists? No, obviously not, but the Ecclesiarchy has the numbers to do that.

Now, an elite organization like the Space Wolves can't be expected to look after this minutae, but someone has to do it, because the Imperium is a very big place. The Ecclesiarchy fills a myriad of roles as it is - and calling it out for its corruption but ignoring the many other responsibilities is immensely unfair, because I'd like to see the Space Wolves police the entirety of the Segmentum Obscurus pilgrimage routes, or run around collecting kids to stuff into the Schola Progenium. Tl;dr, the Ecclesiarchy does different things from the Space Wolves that necessitates massive economies of scale to cover all the worlds in the Imperium, and with any massive organization comes cronyism and corruption.

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Most of this is answered above (badab happened after, etc), but I'm pretty sure 'Ally' is a title that the Wolves bestow on those who fight at their side, and decidedly not people who show up and try to knock the door down. I wouldnt. Would you?

Whatever happens, the Ecclesiarchy and the Space Wolves are both still parts of the Imperium of Man. Disagreements between the two are inevitable, and the Ecclesiarchy representatives were overzealous and dumb to try and force the issue against a chapter known for its short temper. But blowing up a diplomatic envoy because he got on your nerves is not something I'd like to see in a reliable ally - they could have detained and arrested the Ecclesiarchy team once they docked, because, you know, the Space Wolves are SPACE MARINES, they're good in close quarter combat, especially against unaugmented humans. But no, blow them all up and invite military response. Way to escalate the situation.

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*whew* that took some work, god this is fun though, been a while since I could talk shop with someone.

Agreed, it's always fun to argue with someone about geeky stuff without them getting upset. We should do a roleplay sometime haha