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Author Topic: WH40000 - what's your opinion?  (Read 53094 times)

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Offline HairyHeretic

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Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #675 on: December 09, 2014, 05:17:19 PM »
Elvish civil war a few thousand years ago, dynastic power struggle I think. These are the descendents of the side that lost, and were driven into the northlands.

Offline BeorningTopic starter

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #676 on: December 09, 2014, 05:26:40 PM »
I see. So, no BDSM there, I guess  ;D Meanwhile, Dark Eldar are totally BDSM.

BTW. What's your opinion on "normal" Eldar? Dark Eldar I get - they are creepy, but appealing. But the normal Eldar seem totally bland to me... just weird dudes in long helmets. Feel free to change my opinion, though :)

Offline HairyHeretic

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Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #677 on: December 09, 2014, 05:59:41 PM »
I see. So, no BDSM there, I guess  ;D Meanwhile, Dark Eldar are totally BDSM.

Unless you count the Dark Elf Cult of Slaanesh army you used to be able to field, no :P

BTW. What's your opinion on "normal" Eldar? Dark Eldar I get - they are creepy, but appealing. But the normal Eldar seem totally bland to me... just weird dudes in long helmets. Feel free to change my opinion, though :)

Eldar aren't an army that ever appealed that strongly to me. They're a good army, in the right hands, but they're not a forgiving one the same way, say, Marines are. Screw up with one component of an Eldar army, and you may not have the redundancy elsewhere to compensate.

Or so I'm told.

Offline BeorningTopic starter

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #678 on: December 09, 2014, 06:02:58 PM »
Unless you count the Dark Elf Cult of Slaanesh army you used to be able to field, no :P

There was a thing like that in WFB? Cool :)

Quote
Eldar aren't an army that ever appealed that strongly to me. They're a good army, in the right hands, but they're not a forgiving one the same way, say, Marines are. Screw up with one component of an Eldar army, and you may not have the redundancy elsewhere to compensate.

Or so I'm told.

And what's your opinion on their fluff? Fluff is important :)

Offline Hemingway

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #679 on: December 09, 2014, 06:51:08 PM »
Elvish civil war a few thousand years ago, dynastic power struggle I think. These are the descendents of the side that lost, and were driven into the northlands.

'Civil war' makes it sound very peaceful. It was a civil war, but there was also the part where Malekith unleashed Chaos on Ulthuan and broke the island. It was also less of a dynastic power struggle, more Malekith poisoning the reigning king and stepping into the Flames of Asuryan to be chosen as the next king, only to be horribly burned. I can see how that'd make a man slightly bitter.

Unless you count the Dark Elf Cult of Slaanesh army you used to be able to field, no :P

I don't know. I'd say they've still got a thing for whips and chains.

It's funny, though. Nowadays they get warlocks cursed by Malekith. They're incredible, except Slaanesh-aligned units negate their ward save. Slaanesh apparently wants their souls bad.

Offline consortium11

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #680 on: December 09, 2014, 06:58:49 PM »
BTW. What's your opinion on "normal" Eldar? Dark Eldar I get - they are creepy, but appealing. But the normal Eldar seem totally bland to me... just weird dudes in long helmets. Feel free to change my opinion, though :)

Think the last few survivors of Atlantis, each born with a terrible curse that means without outside intervention their souls will quite literally be sent to hell when they die. Or the last few Romans as the Empire burned around them.

Probably the closest comparison from mass media is with the Quarians from Mass Effect (I can't imagine the similarity is accidentally when you consider the backstory and look) where a group fell from grace after something they created turned against them (in the Eldar's case a literal Chaos God) and wiped out much of their species, forcing the others to travel to giant moving spaceships. Unlike the Quarians the Eldar still have their high level technology and thus have less of a "make-do-and-mend" attitude about them but there are a lot of similarities. The Protoss from Star Craft are another pretty obvious comparison with many of the same qualities.

I've always quite liked the Eldar fluff... these were the philosopher kings of the universe so there's an underlying arrogance against "lesser" beings... but they're also the people who through their depravity created Slaanesh so they can't be too arrogant. They have access to some of... if not the... best technology in the universe... but their numbers are few so each death is a tragedy. They've had to deal with their Gods literally being killed or captured and have the eternal fear that without a soulstone their souls will go to Slaanesh when they die.

If you want a tragic hero in 40K then the Eldar are about as good a place to start as any.

Then throw in some interesting caste mechanics, the horror-comedy of the Harlequins etc and there's quite a lot of interesting things there.

Gameplay wise the Eldar are a fairly flexible army; traditionally they're seen as a pretty "shooty" but one could easily fill (depending on what units are allowed) an army with Howling Banshee's, Striking Scorpians, Warp Spiders and Fire Dragons, all rounded off with an Avatar of Khaine (the shattered remains of a War God) and a few fast transports and you have a deadly close combat/close support army. Or fill it with Warp Spiders, Swooping Hawks, Shining Spears, some Harlequins, the aforementioned transports and you've got an incredibly mobile army that's incredibly hard to pin down and immensely irritating to play.

Basically each Eldar is an elite and all but the most basic units are very specialized. Unlike a Space Marine squad where a generically equipped unit can hold its own whether shooting or stabbing, Eldar units tend to do one thing very well and everything else really badly. An Eldar army will generally be fast with very good close combat and ranged options and brilliant psychic abilities. However outside of a few specialised units and hiding guys inside transports they're very squisy and while often having good armour saves if they take sustained fire or come against anything that can get through their armour then they'll die in short order.

Offline consortium11

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #681 on: December 09, 2014, 07:11:13 PM »
'Civil war' makes it sound very peaceful. It was a civil war, but there was also the part where Malekith unleashed Chaos on Ulthuan and broke the island. It was also less of a dynastic power struggle, more Malekith poisoning the reigning king and stepping into the Flames of Asuryan to be chosen as the next king, only to be horribly burned. I can see how that'd make a man slightly bitter.

Especially as with the current on-going fluff development it looks like Malekith actually was the rightful king and if he'd stayed in the flames for a few more seconds he'd have had his birthright. It also indicates that pretty much every Phoenix King since has relied on mages to survive the flames... and because of that it has been Asuryan who attempts to drive them insane. Finally, as the real kicker, the End Times also seem to say that everything that's happened after Malekith stepped in the flames has actually been a test for Malekith to see if he was worthy of being the Phoenix King... a test he appears to have passed now that he's the ruler of pretty much all elf-kind after his successful (but Pyrrhic) invasion.

Offline Hemingway

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #682 on: December 09, 2014, 07:53:24 PM »
Especially as with the current on-going fluff development it looks like Malekith actually was the rightful king and if he'd stayed in the flames for a few more seconds he'd have had his birthright. It also indicates that pretty much every Phoenix King since has relied on mages to survive the flames... and because of that it has been Asuryan who attempts to drive them insane. Finally, as the real kicker, the End Times also seem to say that everything that's happened after Malekith stepped in the flames has actually been a test for Malekith to see if he was worthy of being the Phoenix King... a test he appears to have passed now that he's the ruler of pretty much all elf-kind after his successful (but Pyrrhic) invasion.

I should really finish reading the Malekith novel at some point.

My true love is Malus Darkblade, though. That lovable scoundrel. ... annnnnd good god, there's a new Darkblade novel coming. Dang!

I mean, I like what happened with Malus. In the previous dark elves book ( or maybe the one before? ) he was pretty ordinary - his father's favored son, and so on. Then the novels came out, made him a literal bastard, and not at all very successful in all his endeavors. I mean, he wasn't even a very powerful character, often being outmatched by his opponents in one way or another - but always more shifty, more cunning, and more ruthless. And in the end, he did rise up, he did become the scion of Hag Graef ( on which my dark elf army is based! ), and things are good. Also, he may or may not have had a thing with his sister.

I mean, we all know who the real Scourge of Khaine is.

I leave you with this absolute gem from one of the novels:

Malus: I'll think of something when we get inside.
Retainer: You mean we'll kill everyone we meet.
Malus: That is what I said, yes.

Offline BeorningTopic starter

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #683 on: December 09, 2014, 08:02:54 PM »
Keep discussing, folks. It's all very interesting.

Question about the Eldar: what's a soulstone?

Oh, and about the Mass Effect's Quarians being inspired by the Eldar - interesting observation. You know, I've always seen Quarians as being, basically, Battlestar Galactica's humans :)

BTW. I was reading Black Crusade this evening... Wow. This game's perspective on the Imperium is... surely different. I mean, the book says that Space Marines are inhuman murderers that kill civilians without batting an eye. And that the Emperor actually wanted to replace humanity with beings like the Primarchs? This... surely is just Chaos propaganda?

Offline Hemingway

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #684 on: December 09, 2014, 08:05:22 PM »
Wait, what - Malus is officially dead ... but there's a novel coming? Well, that's just plain weird.

EDIT: That being said, End Times sounds like good fun. An all-elf army? Malekith being the Phoenix King? I could go for some of that.

Online VonCrown

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #685 on: December 09, 2014, 08:15:05 PM »
Soulstones are basically receptacles to house an eldar's soul when they die, so that Slaanesh can't get them. They also then use the souls to help run technology such as wraithguard.

Offline consortium11

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #686 on: December 09, 2014, 08:35:51 PM »
Question about the Eldar: what's a soulstone?

Typo by me; it's actually a spirit stone.

Basically they're precious stones made out a crystals called "waystones". These are basically magic and act as a sort of "soul trap" so at the moment of an Eldar's death his soul/spirit is sent to the spirit stone. This is vital as otherwise an Eldar soul is consumed by Slaanesh and subjected to endless torment. Filled waystones are then returned to a Craftworld (think floating planet+ sized ship that house the remaining Eldar) where they are embedded into it's core. The Eldar soul can then freely mingle with the other implanted souls and form the "spirit" of the Craftworld.

There's a prophecy/rumor that if enough souls are gathered within the Craftworlds that a new Eldar God will arise and be able to beat (or at least compete with) Slaanesh to prevent other Eldar souls from being claimed by him.

Oh, and about the Mass Effect's Quarians being inspired by the Eldar - interesting observation. You know, I've always seen Quarians as being, basically, Battlestar Galactica's humans :)

I'm sure there's some of that (and likely some of Galactica's human's in the Eldar... all speculative fiction tends to cannibalize of others eventually) but the Quarian/Eldar look is the kicker for me; it's just too similar for me to overlook. Bioware aren't always the most original; Mass Effect takes a lot from their earlier KOTOR game for a simple example.

BTW. I was reading Black Crusade this evening... Wow. This game's perspective on the Imperium is... surely different. I mean, the book says that Space Marines are inhuman murderers that kill civilians without batting an eye. And that the Emperor actually wanted to replace humanity with beings like the Primarchs? This... surely is just Chaos propaganda?

Different interpretation but still pretty much true. While they occasionally get rewritten as more lovey-dovey then usual by sympathetic authors and some Chapters are presented as being mpre "in touch" with humanity, on the whole Space Marines are just sort of bastards... but bastards who are on humanities' side. That's great if you're the other side of the universe and they're preventing Tyranids or Chaos from consuming you... it's far less good if you're right in the mix and the Space Marines decides it's imperative to wipe out a planet. Remember 40K is all about grimdark and scale... Space Marines are saving humanity not humans... a plant or dozen being wiped clean of life doesn't really mean much.

Likewise the Emperor was pretty hot on genetic engineering; he rose to power by creating armies of genetically engineered warriors to support him and then put in place the Primarch project to give him even more powerful warriors to lead them. As far as I'm aware there's no definitive answer either way as to whether he wanted to replace humanity entirely but let's remember that the Emperor's driving goal was to make humanity be able to survive the threats that came its way... it wouldn't be entirely out of character for him to think that genetically engineering the entire human race into incredibly powerful super soldiers who can handle a Bloodthirster on their own was his next big step.

Wait, what - Malus is officially dead ... but there's a novel coming? Well, that's just plain weird.

EDIT: That being said, End Times sounds like good fun. An all-elf army? Malekith being the Phoenix King? I could go for some of that.

As I mentioned, End Times is pretty much Fantasy Battle pressing the big red button labeled "do not press, crazyness awaits!", standing back and laughing manically. Personally I'm pretty glad that it's Nagash... one of the oldest and most respectable of their character (I still have his terribly cheesy older model from the days where I played a lot)... as the main big bad rather than a new invention (*cough*Archaon*cough*).

Yep... Malus apparently dies and dies pretty softly. Not that he's alone in dying by any means... if there's a character you like in Fantasy Battle I suspect there's around a 50% chance they've already died/been captured and tortured/had their soul stolen/something equally horrible and around a 75% chance that if it hasn't happened yet it will by the end of it.

Offline TheGlyphstone

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #687 on: December 09, 2014, 08:53:13 PM »
Quote
BTW. I was reading Black Crusade this evening... Wow. This game's perspective on the Imperium is... surely different. I mean, the book says that Space Marines are inhuman murderers that kill civilians without batting an eye. And that the Emperor actually wanted to replace humanity with beings like the Primarchs? This... surely is just Chaos propaganda?

Likewise the Emperor was pretty hot on genetic engineering; he rose to power by creating armies of genetically engineered warriors to support him and then put in place the Primarch project to give him even more powerful warriors to lead them. As far as I'm aware there's no definitive answer either way as to whether he wanted to replace humanity entirely but let's remember that the Emperor's driving goal was to make humanity be able to survive the threats that came its way... it wouldn't be entirely out of character for him to think that genetically engineering the entire human race into incredibly powerful super soldiers who can handle a Bloodthirster on their own was his next big step.

If it is, it's a retcon. I think I mentioned this upthread, but it was canon in earlier fluff that the Emperor specifically did not want the Adeptus Astartes to become Homo Superior, which was why he designed the Space Marines to only be male, and be sterile on top of that. They were always intended to be humanity's guardians/servants/slaves, not their masters or replacements.

Offline Hemingway

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #688 on: December 10, 2014, 07:10:10 AM »
As I mentioned, End Times is pretty much Fantasy Battle pressing the big red button labeled "do not press, crazyness awaits!", standing back and laughing manically. Personally I'm pretty glad that it's Nagash... one of the oldest and most respectable of their character (I still have his terribly cheesy older model from the days where I played a lot)... as the main big bad rather than a new invention (*cough*Archaon*cough*).

Yep... Malus apparently dies and dies pretty softly. Not that he's alone in dying by any means... if there's a character you like in Fantasy Battle I suspect there's around a 50% chance they've already died/been captured and tortured/had their soul stolen/something equally horrible and around a 75% chance that if it hasn't happened yet it will by the end of it.

Yeah, so it seems. I'm still concerned about what this means for WFB as a whole - if it's actually the end. I'd be terribly sad.

If not, I like the potential this gives. A dark elf army with Shadow Warriors? I like it. Maybe.

EDIT: I was assembling some of my Black Guard, and it struck me - the Eldar comparison.

WFB elves are weird. I mean, in 40K, they're elite, and typically have expensive units. Dark elves, on the other hand, have some of the cheapest units in WFB - barring skaven slaves. Their heavy cavalry is expensive, but then they are among the best in the game - when they work.

Black Guard aren't very expensive, though - and they're just about the most elite units the dark elves have. I mean, they are Malekith's personal guard. While they have excellent stats, get excellent bonuses and can't break, they're also soft as all elves, and work best in horde formations. It's weird.
« Last Edit: December 10, 2014, 08:12:22 PM by Hemingway »

Offline BeorningTopic starter

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #689 on: December 13, 2014, 10:07:06 AM »
So, I'm reading through Black Crusade bit by bit... and I have a question: is a sorcerer the same as a psyker?

The way I understand it, psykers are people born with psychic powers that are powered by the Warp. Are sorcerers psykers with a more fancy name, or are they something else? Can one train to become a sorcerer, or are they all born with the gift of psychic powers?

Also, do the psykers need any equipment? The psyker portrayed in the Black Crusade book has these wires and metal stuff over her...

Offline TheGlyphstone

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #690 on: December 13, 2014, 12:14:21 PM »
It's a fuzzy term. Some people refer to psykers and sorcerers as the same thing. But Sorcery is also a distinct branch of Warp-manipulation from psychic powers, using rites and rituals to summon demonic entities and seal bargains with them for power. You don't need to be a born psyker to work Sorcery, since all the actual power belongs to the thing you call up, you're just using a book to find their magical phone number.

Offline HairyHeretic

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Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #691 on: December 13, 2014, 03:18:43 PM »
Pretty much. As for the equipment you see with the psychers, well, that's what it is. Tools and equipment. Makes their powers safer, more controlled, more powerful or what have you.

Offline BeorningTopic starter

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #692 on: December 13, 2014, 04:43:48 PM »
I see. Thank you for info, as usual :)

On another note, I've been working on my Canoness this week... She's a *lot* of work. I think I spent over an hour just painting the backpack - with that flaming chimney taking most of that time. Painting fire is hard...

Aside from that, I spent 2.5 hours today on the main figure and I'd say that I only passed the halfway point. I painted the main parts of the figure, but there's a lot of details still to do... Also, I'll have to do a lot of retouching. And I have yet to start painting the arms, which are separate pieces!

BTW. Attaching these tiny arms will be very tricky...

Offline HairyHeretic

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Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #693 on: December 13, 2014, 05:09:39 PM »
Get yourself a bit of greenstuff, if you can. You can use a little blob of that on the end of the arm to let you maneuver them into the poisition you want, and it will hold them well enough for you to them apply the superglue and bond them into place.

And if you think painting 40k is tricky, take a look at Epic sometime.

6mm 40k :)

Offline BeorningTopic starter

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #694 on: December 13, 2014, 05:18:59 PM »
Get yourself a bit of greenstuff, if you can. You can use a little blob of that on the end of the arm to let you maneuver them into the poisition you want, and it will hold them well enough for you to them apply the superglue and bond them into place.

I wonder if plasticine could be used for similar effect...

Quote
And if you think painting 40k is tricky, take a look at Epic sometime.

6mm 40k :)

Wow. You paint it with a microscope, or something?  ;)
« Last Edit: December 13, 2014, 05:49:22 PM by Beorning »

Offline HairyHeretic

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Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #695 on: December 13, 2014, 05:45:40 PM »
I wonder if plasticine could be used for similar effect...

Short term, maybe, but green stuff hardens and forms a solid bond between the metal pieces, and gives the superglue something to bond with as well.

Wow. You paint it with a microscope, or something?  ;)

Just a very fine brush. And I never did more than a very simple paint job :)

Offline BeorningTopic starter

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #696 on: December 13, 2014, 05:51:24 PM »
Short term, maybe, but green stuff hardens and forms a solid bond between the metal pieces, and gives the superglue something to bond with as well.

Ah. Good point...

Quote
Just a very fine brush. And I never did more than a very simple paint job :)

I still remember that tiny hedgehog Thorne showed us, with all these details painted on...

On another note...

I was browsing the web and found a blog post about one Greek magazine's article on WH40K:

http://cadia122.blogspot.com/2011/11/bad-journalism.html

The article is... facepalm-inducing. Feel free to read it, if you're in a masochistic mood :)

On the other hand, the article isn't as bad as an article I read in one major Polish newspaper about a year ago. The article was extremely alarmist in tone and concerned the fact that, in RPGs, you can RP rapes. To quote the newspaper's editor: "It turns out that there's a way for you to rape a woman and get away with it!!!".

I wonder what he would say, had he stumbled onto Elliquiy...

Offline ChaoticSky

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #697 on: December 13, 2014, 05:54:51 PM »
I know a guy who does the detail-paining on his 6mms with a sewing needle.

Offline HairyHeretic

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Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #698 on: December 13, 2014, 06:06:06 PM »
Pffff ... I've probably commited crimes in RPGs that they don't even have names for :P

Offline Oniya

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Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #699 on: December 14, 2014, 04:38:03 PM »
Pffff ... I've probably commited crimes in RPGs that they don't even have names for :P

I should probably recount the time our Native American party encountered a mage who had swallowed a fire-immunity ring over in the 'She bows deeply and then explodes' thread.  Somehow, I don't think 'abuse of a corpse' quite covers it.