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Author Topic: WH40000 - what's your opinion?  (Read 53613 times)

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Online TheGlyphstone

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #500 on: October 30, 2014, 04:36:01 PM »
Some vehicles take up Force Organization slots on their own. If they have transport capacity, any friendly unit can ride inside them. A Dedicated Transport is a vehicle assigned to a specific squad or unit; only that unit is permitted to use said vehicle as a transport, but the vehicle doesn't use up a ForceOrg slot.

Quote
So, if the wargear for a Sister is listed as "boltgun, bolt pistol, frag grenades", that's exactly what she's carrying? Even if the actual mini is not holding a pistol?

Correct. You can choose to model a pistol on her hip or something, but she always has it unless you've made a wargear purchase that exchanges the pistol (or boltgun) for something else.
« Last Edit: October 30, 2014, 04:37:22 PM by TheGlyphstone »

Online HairyHeretic

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Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #501 on: October 30, 2014, 04:39:17 PM »
Okay, I guess that vehicles make sense, then...

BTW. What does Dedicated Transport mean, exactly?

A transport vehicle for a specific unit.

So, if the wargear for a Sister is listed as "boltgun, bolt pistol, frag grenades", that's exactly what she's carrying? Even if the actual mini is not holding a pistol?

Yep. I have a number of models converted up who would actually be armed with weapons different to what they have. I've converted them just for the appearance.

Right now I'm looking at doing a model in a knife fighting pose. The lead hand will come from the missile launcher off hand, palm open and extended out from the body. The rear hand with hold the knife, but be cut and angled so the blade is along the inside of the forearm.

In the game the model will still have a bolter, or bolt pistol and knife. They may be on the model somewhere, holstered. This will just be for the appearance, and because I think it will look good :)

Offline BeorningTopic starter

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #502 on: October 30, 2014, 04:53:55 PM »
A transport vehicle for a specific unit.

Can other units in the course of the battle, then? Or can a vehicle be entered only by units assigned to it?

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Yep. I have a number of models converted up who would actually be armed with weapons different to what they have. I've converted them just for the appearance.

Ah, I see. Here's a somewhat related question, then: what about the banners? There are two Sisters' models depicting them with a banner and nothing else. In the rules, it's stated that "one Sister in the unit can take the banner" etc. Does it mean that this Sister is weaponless, or that she has the banner in addition to her standard weapons? How does it work with, say, Marines?

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Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #503 on: October 30, 2014, 05:18:11 PM »
Can other units in the course of the battle, then? Or can a vehicle be entered only by units assigned to it?

I'd have to dig my rules out to check. I think generally a transport purchased along with a unit can only transport that unit. A vehicle purchased on its own that can transport a unit (a land raider for example) can transport anyone.

Ah, I see. Here's a somewhat related question, then: what about the banners? There are two Sisters' models depicting them with a banner and nothing else. In the rules, it's stated that "one Sister in the unit can take the banner" etc. Does it mean that this Sister is weaponless, or that she has the banner in addition to her standard weapons? How does it work with, say, Marines?

In addition to, I would say. Unless the entry talks about replacing a weapon, or equipment, figure its in addition to what they have.

Offline BeorningTopic starter

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #504 on: October 30, 2014, 05:52:31 PM »
I'd have to dig my rules out to check. I think generally a transport purchased along with a unit can only transport that unit. A vehicle purchased on its own that can transport a unit (a land raider for example) can transport anyone.

If the codex lists Rhinos and Immolators only as Dedicated Transports, that means that they can't be purchased on their own, right? They need to be tied to units?

Aaaand one very specific question: Armour save and invulnerable save are something different, am I guessing it right? Because a Canoness has 3+ Armour save *and* (optionally) 4+ invulnerable save...

Online TheGlyphstone

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #505 on: October 30, 2014, 07:35:46 PM »
Can other units in the course of the battle, then? Or can a vehicle be entered only by units assigned to it?

Ah, I see. Here's a somewhat related question, then: what about the banners? There are two Sisters' models depicting them with a banner and nothing else. In the rules, it's stated that "one Sister in the unit can take the banner" etc. Does it mean that this Sister is weaponless, or that she has the banner in addition to her standard weapons? How does it work with, say, Marines?

That's what I said at the top of the page, yeah. ;D A Dedicated Transport can only be boarded by its assigned unit.
Quote

Aaaand one very specific question: Armour save and invulnerable save are something different, am I guessing it right? Because a Canoness has 3+ Armour save *and* (optionally) 4+ invulnerable save...

Correct. When you roll a save, you pick the better of your two options. All weapons have an Armor Piercing value (Bolters, for example, are AP 5) that ignore saves of that number or worse. So in the case of your Canoness, she would roll her 3+ Armor save against any attacks that are not AP3 or lower. If they are, she gets her 4+ Invulnerable save instead.
« Last Edit: October 30, 2014, 07:37:27 PM by TheGlyphstone »

Offline Hemingway

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #506 on: October 30, 2014, 09:06:25 PM »
The minimum requirements (I think) are 1 HQ unit and 2 basic troop units. The maximum in a single force org chart is 2 HQs, 6 Troops and 3 each of Elites / Fast Attack / Heavy support. This can also change depending on what codex you are using.

And Unbound is play whatever you have handy.

Is that a thing all armies have - the 'basic' formation with 1 HQ and 2 Troops? I know that not all formations require those, anyway. But is that even relevant to Sisters of Battle? I tried looking it up, and I couldn't find any Sisters-specific formations that weren't for Apocalypse.

Ah, I see. Here's a somewhat related question, then: what about the banners? There are two Sisters' models depicting them with a banner and nothing else. In the rules, it's stated that "one Sister in the unit can take the banner" etc. Does it mean that this Sister is weaponless, or that she has the banner in addition to her standard weapons? How does it work with, say, Marines?

If you're playing official games, what you see is what you get - a weapon or piece of equipment has to be represented on the model in some way. Unless that wargear in the basic profile. Anything listed under 'wargear', they'll have unless you replace it with something else allowed by their rules - regardless of whether the model actually shows that piece of equipment. For instance, my Grey Hunters have bolt pistols even though not all of them are modeled as carrying one. However, all of them have close combat weapons represented on their models, as those are an upgrade.

Standards, as you said, generally just say "may take", which means they keep whatever is listed in their profiles.

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Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #507 on: October 31, 2014, 07:02:04 AM »
Is that a thing all armies have - the 'basic' formation with 1 HQ and 2 Troops? I know that not all formations require those, anyway. But is that even relevant to Sisters of Battle? I tried looking it up, and I couldn't find any Sisters-specific formations that weren't for Apocalypse.

I'd a quick glance at my 7th ed rulebook, and that does seem the basic bound list requirements still. There's more stuff, with the superheavies, lords of war and fortifications, but that still seems the core.

Offline BeorningTopic starter

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #508 on: October 31, 2014, 06:12:53 PM »
That's what I said at the top of the page, yeah. ;D

Uh. I missed that bit when I was posting my reply... Sorry :(

Overall, I'd really like to thank you guys (Glyph, Hairy, Hemingway, Oniya, Thorne, Inkidu and others) for your input... and your patience regarding my torrent of questions! You're all an enormous help!

Correct. When you roll a save, you pick the better of your two options. All weapons have an Armor Piercing value (Bolters, for example, are AP 5) that ignore saves of that number or worse. So in the case of your Canoness, she would roll her 3+ Armor save against any attacks that are not AP3 or lower. If they are, she gets her 4+ Invulnerable save instead.

.... okay, I won't pretend that I completely understand that. But I just came home after a 13-hour shift, so my brain is a bit on fritz :)

What I get is that 3+ Armour save doesn't make 4+ Invulnerable save reduntant... That's what I was wondering about. I'll work out the details later  ;D

If you're playing official games, what you see is what you get - a weapon or piece of equipment has to be represented on the model in some way. Unless that wargear in the basic profile. Anything listed under 'wargear', they'll have unless you replace it with something else allowed by their rules - regardless of whether the model actually shows that piece of equipment. For instance, my Grey Hunters have bolt pistols even though not all of them are modeled as carrying one. However, all of them have close combat weapons represented on their models, as those are an upgrade.

Standards, as you said, generally just say "may take", which means they keep whatever is listed in their profiles.

Ah, I see. Thank you :)
« Last Edit: October 31, 2014, 06:17:51 PM by Beorning »

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Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #509 on: October 31, 2014, 06:38:53 PM »
Uh. I missed that bit when I was posting my reply... Sorry :(

Overall, I'd really like to thank you guys (Glyph, Hairy, Hemingway, Oniya, Thorne, Inkidu and others) for your input... and your patience regarding my torrent of questions! You're all an enormous help!

We were all new to the game once. :)

.... okay, I won't pretend that I completely understand that. But I just came home after a 13-hour shift, so my brain is a bit on fritz :)

What I get is that 3+ Armour save doesn't make 4+ Invulnerable save reduntant... That's what I was wondering about. I'll work out the details later  ;D

Your Cannoness get shot at by a squad of Chaos Space Marines. The squad leader has a plasma pistol. The 6 basic guys have bolters. The special weapons guy has a meltagun.

The plasma pistol rolls a 1 and manages to fry himself. The other CSMs point and laugh.

4 of the 6 bolters hit. 2 manage to wound.

The meltagun also hits and wounds.

Now, you have to make 3 saving throws.

Since the bolters AP does not beat your armour (AP5 v 3+ save) you get to roll the 3+ save for both those shots. You save 1, fail the other and take 1 wound.

The meltagun's AP2 does beat the 3+ armour save. This is where your invulnerable save now comes in. If you fail this, you're dead. Weapons designed to punch holes in tanks tend to do very bad things to ordinary infantry and frequently kill them regardless of how many wounds they have.

Offline Hemingway

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #510 on: October 31, 2014, 07:09:12 PM »
It might bear mentioning that you can also get saves from being in cover - cover saves.

3+ armor saves are pretty great, but there are so many things that can punch right through them. This is especially true because there are so many units with 3+ saves - it's always a good idea to stock up on weapons with AP>3. I run as many as possible in my Space Wolves list. Which means that anything with a save of 3+ ( or worse, god help them ) would not get to take a whole lot of saves. Invulnerable saves remedy this problem, but so do cover saves.

If you're in cover, you might lose your armor save - but you'll still get your cover save ( assuming no weapons used ignore cover ). A cover save may be worse than your armor save ( depends ), but it's a whole lot better than nothing.

So, to summarize: More saves gives you additional 'layers' of protection, whenever one layer gets stripped away. And don't trust armor saves. It's not that they aren't useful, but you should never just assume you're going to get to use them.

EDIT: I'd also like to take this opportunity to just ... once again point out that Space Wolves' Helfrost weapons are B-A-N-A-N-A-S. It's not that they kills you instantly if you suffer an unsaved wound ( which you will given the weapons' profiles and the BS of the units they're mounted on ) - it's that they don't. Because if they did, units with the Eternal Warrior rule might still survive. Helfrost circumvents that entirely. Good god, they're terrifying.

Okay. Okay, I'm done now.
« Last Edit: October 31, 2014, 07:15:57 PM by Hemingway »

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Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #511 on: October 31, 2014, 08:58:32 PM »
I haven't played against the new Wolf-dex. How do they get around Eternal Warrior?

Offline Hemingway

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #512 on: November 01, 2014, 07:00:40 AM »
Helfrost weapons require strength tests for each unsaved wound. If a strength test is failed, the model is removed from the game, completely separate from the Instant Death rule. Now, the weapons are pretty rare - they're either mounted on Dreadnoughts or flyers. I plan on running as many of them as I can possibly fit, however.

Offline BeorningTopic starter

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #513 on: November 01, 2014, 03:33:08 PM »
Thank you for explaining the saves for me, guys :)

As Eternal Warrior was mentioned... what exactly is that rule? I saw it mentioned in the codex (one of the special artifacts available to Canoness give it to her), but there was no explanation. So, I don't know if it's something worth purchasing..?

Online TheGlyphstone

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #514 on: November 01, 2014, 03:49:50 PM »
For a low-toughness hero, it is very valuable.

Damaging a target is a question of relative Weapon Strength (the S stat on your gun) against the Toughness (T) of the target. If you succeed, they lose 1 wound. For most infantry, this kills them, but characters like the Canonness can take multiple wounds before dying (the W stat). Now, if that wound is dealt by a weapon with Strength of double the Toughness stat (so, a weapon of Strength 6 or higher, if her toughness is 3), then the hit will instant-kill her. A model with Eternal Warrior cannot be instant-killed, they will only ever lose one wound from a single hit.

Online Sain

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #515 on: November 01, 2014, 03:51:45 PM »
Hey. Dropping in here to ask if you guys have heard of/tried a thing called Vassal? It seems like a nifty little program that can simulate WH40K battles with friends abroad. I played couple of matches on it with necrons (my first time trying WH40K) and my initial impression is that it's pretty smooth. Of course you won't have the cool miniatures to fondle, but the game mechanics themselves are pretty okay to enjoy on their own.

Online HairyHeretic

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Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #516 on: November 01, 2014, 06:14:27 PM »
Heard of it, but never played it. Apparently there are a lot of mods out there for different games that you can play over it.

Online Sain

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #517 on: November 01, 2014, 06:49:09 PM »
Yup, WH40K 7th ed being one of them. It was rather simple to use (well, the only things you need are a map and d6) so if you've got a handful of people here I recommend giving it a spin.

Online HairyHeretic

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Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #518 on: November 01, 2014, 07:22:40 PM »
I might do that, but for me 40k is the hobby, not just the game (if that makes sense :) ).

Offline Hemingway

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #519 on: November 01, 2014, 08:13:54 PM »
For a low-toughness hero, it is very valuable.

I can imagine a 3+ SV unit with a 4+ Ward save AND Eternal Warrior being very difficult to get rid of.

If I'm not mistaken, though - weapons can have Instant Death as part of their profiles, no? I mean, regardless of strength? Or does that only exist in Fantasy?

Online TheGlyphstone

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #520 on: November 01, 2014, 09:08:55 PM »
I can imagine a 3+ SV unit with a 4+ Ward save AND Eternal Warrior being very difficult to get rid of.

If I'm not mistaken, though - weapons can have Instant Death as part of their profiles, no? I mean, regardless of strength? Or does that only exist in Fantasy?

The only weapons in 40K I am aware of that can remove a model from the table without the Instant Death rule are Hellfrost weapons (requiring a Strength test), or the Eldar D-Cannon (which requires rolling a 6 on the effect table).

Offline Hemingway

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #521 on: November 01, 2014, 09:12:49 PM »
The only weapons in 40K I am aware of that can remove a model from the table without the Instant Death rule are Hellfrost weapons (requiring a Strength test), or the Eldar D-Cannon (which requires rolling a 6 on the effect table).

But there's nothing that causes Instant Death regardless of strength?

Online TheGlyphstone

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #522 on: November 02, 2014, 01:06:19 AM »
But there's nothing that causes Instant Death regardless of strength?

Nope.

I can't think of anything in Fantasy even, except possibly certain race-exclusive magic weapons, that just insta-kill. There are swords that automatically wound, and a ton of things that inflict d3 or d6 wounds at a time, but nothing I'm personally aware of that is roll-to-hit, they just die.

Offline Hemingway

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #523 on: November 02, 2014, 07:30:37 AM »
Nah, you're right - I misremembered the rules for Heroic Killing Blow.

Online Sain

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #524 on: November 02, 2014, 08:14:42 AM »
Necron tesseract labyrinth? Only works on non vehicles though.