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Author Topic: WH40000 - what's your opinion?  (Read 53043 times)

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Offline BeorningTopic starter

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #25 on: August 10, 2014, 05:10:57 PM »
Wait. The Sisters seem to have a codex now:

http://www.blacklibrary.com/games-workshop-digital-editions/Codex-Adepta-Sororitas.html

Although it does seem to be e-book only...

Anyway, even if they don't have a separate codex, then maybe their units and rules are listed somewhere else?

Aside from the Sisters...

Tell me more about assembling. I search for Youtube videos and some of them made assembling look easy: cut the pieces out of the frame, click them together and it's done. Others showed that there's drilling to be done to make the pieces fit together etc...

BTW. My personal concern is that these miniatures are so small!!! Only about 3 cm. I don't know if I'd be able to paint them. Lots of precision work...

I also have question about the armies: how much mix-and-match is one allowed to do with the armies? Can I use Space Marines and the Sisters as one army? Can Chaos Space Marines be used together with Chaos Demons and cultists?

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Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #26 on: August 10, 2014, 05:12:22 PM »
That is true.

Though I am wrong again, after looking on Lexicanum - Sisters got a Digital-Only Ebook Codex release in 6e (2013).

Frankly, I think Dark Eldar are about as neglected as the Sisters.

Hmm. I must have missed that one.

I'd say DE have gotten more support. They have an in print codex, and the model range has been revised (plastic warriors for example) and added to in the new codex. Sisters are still using the stuff they've always had.

Offline Inkidu

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Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #27 on: August 10, 2014, 05:15:05 PM »
Just get a miniature of Creed. He's all you'll need. :D

Tactical genius will not be denied!

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Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #28 on: August 10, 2014, 05:24:06 PM »
Wait. The Sisters seem to have a codex now:

http://www.blacklibrary.com/games-workshop-digital-editions/Codex-Adepta-Sororitas.html

Although it does seem to be e-book only...

Anyway, even if they don't have a separate codex, then maybe their units and rules are listed somewhere else?

There are two books you'll need, at a basic level. The main rulebook, which gives you the rules for the game, and the codex which gives you the rules for your given army.

Aside from the Sisters...

Tell me more about assembling. I search for Youtube videos and some of them made assembling look easy: cut the pieces out of the frame, click them together and it's done. Others showed that there's drilling to be done to make the pieces fit together etc...

Most of the plastics are that simple. Cut off the frame, a little dab of superglue, hold it til it sticks and then onto the next part.

Some of the resin and metal models have other assembly isses more commonly
Flash - excess material left over from the moulding which needs removed, normally cut or filed off
Pinning - the weight of metal models in particular means that glue may have trouble holding them together. People will drill out a pair of small holes in the pieces to be joined, and use a thin rod of metal between them as additional support. That's pinning.

BTW. My personal concern is that these miniatures are so small!!! Only about 3 cm. I don't know if I'd be able to paint them. Lots of precision work...

28mm, technically. GW is a bit larger than true 28mm scale though, so you may see the term 'heroic 28mm' tossed around.

Painting basic stuff isn't too hard. I prefer to have all my models wear helmets so I don't have to worry so much about skin tones or painting eyes. If I can set them on the table and they look ok from a couple of feet away, I'm happy :)

I also have question about the armies: how much mix-and-match is one allowed to do with the armies? Can I use Space Marines and the Sisters as one army? Can Chaos Space Marines be used together with Chaos Demons and cultists?

All Imperial forces can Ally together. This means that you can build an army from 2 separate codex lists, as long as each obeys the normal restrictions (1 HQ unit and 2 Troop units base). An army that obeys the normal limitations is refered to as Bound in 7th edition, and gets some addition benefits on the table.

There's also Unbound, which means take whatever you want. For example, I can't ally my Chaos Marines with Imperial Guard any more (a stupid decision, as IG turns to Chaos far more than Marines do). If I take an Unbound army I'll take some IG Primaris psychers and call them a sorcerer coven. Then I'll take IG conscripts (weak, weak cannon fodder) and call them cultists. I'll add a small unit of Chaos Space Marines, who have turned up to support the cult uprising, and some deamons that the cult has summoned. I'm taking units from 3 different codexes, without following the 1 HQ and 2 Troop type restrictions, which makes my army Unbound.

I was initially against the idea of Unbound, figuring it would be the playground of power mongers (Yeah, I'm fielding an all Imperial Knight list. With a Warhound titan for support) but frankly, those players will field nasty armies inside the rules as well as outside them.

Unbound lets me play thematic stuff, and frankly, I lost my interest in power gaming and tournaments a LONG time ago.

Offline Mikem

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Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #29 on: August 10, 2014, 06:17:16 PM »
My only experience with this universe is watching a playthrough of the recent Warhammer 40k: Space Marine game.  :-[ Heh.

Now the Halo universe ah Hell, ask me anything on that.

Offline BeorningTopic starter

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #30 on: August 10, 2014, 06:43:10 PM »
I'd like to clarify something about allying: can Chaos-related armies be put together under Bound rules? For example, the current starter kit has Space Marines vs cultists. Space Marines can be allied with Sisters, so their side of the kit could indeed serve as a starter for an Imperial army. What about the cultist? Could I add Chaos Marines to them later, as well as Demons?

BTW. How big are armies used in WH40K, on average? I found one instructional video for beginners on Youtube and it featured 10 Marines vs. 20 Tyranids. And the battle seemed to be over in... minutes? A few rounds and the game was over. Is that typical size of armies, or are they larger?

Also, if I may ask: any experience with paints? I browsed GW store and they seem to have different sets of paints: basic, layer, shades, dry (???). Are all of them necessary?

My only experience with this universe is watching a playthrough of the recent Warhammer 40k: Space Marine game.  :-[ Heh.

That's still more experience that I've had  ;D

Offline TheGlyphstone

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #31 on: August 10, 2014, 06:56:40 PM »
That is one squad vs. one squad. The minimum army size is 2 troop units and an HQ leader - for marines, that's two 5-10 man teams and a commander, Tyranids would be two 10-30 man teams and a commander.

A typical full-size Space Marine army would probably be around 50 models. An average Tyranid (swarm heavy) would be closer to 100 or more. Depending on whether they are horde-style or elite-style, other armies will swing to one of these averages (certain super-elite armies like Grey Knights can go under 25, but those models will all be extremely costly).

Offline Inkidu

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Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #32 on: August 10, 2014, 07:00:22 PM »
Honestly the thing that keeps me from playing the tabletop game is the gameplay and story segregation.

As an example: Space marines are supposed to be utter badasses an army made of one-man armies but for the sake of game balance they go down pretty easily to just about anything that's not absolutely pathetic.

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Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #33 on: August 10, 2014, 07:00:38 PM »
I'd like to clarify something about allying: can Chaos-related armies be put together under Bound rules? For example, the current starter kit has Space Marines vs cultists. Space Marines can be allied with Sisters, so their side of the kit could indeed serve as a starter for an Imperial army. What about the cultist? Could I add Chaos Marines to them later, as well as Demons?

Cultists are a troop choice in the Chaos Space Marines codex. If I remember the Allies Matrix offhand, Chaos Marines can ally with Deamons freely, and are distrusted allies with Orks and Dark Eldar. This means they'll kinda work together, but they don't trust each other.

The starter set you're talking about is the Dark Vengence one. That was brought out for 6th edition, and its not bad for the money. You could probably convert the Dark Angels up as Chaos, and you'd have the beginings of a decent force there. I'm not sure if it has the 7th ed rulebook in it though. If it's been updated to 7th, then yeah, it's a good buy.

Chaos
Lord (HQ choice)
Champion (could do as a Lord or go with the Chosen)
Chosen (Elites)
2 small units of cultists (Troops)
Hellbrute (aka Dreadnought) (Heavy Support)

Dark Angels
Officer and Librarian (psyker) (HQs)
Bikes (Fast attack)
Squad of Marines (Troops)
Terminators (Elites)

The models are all snap together ones, so they're not as posable as regular ones, but their simplicity makes them good for absolute beginners, which is what the set is marketed towards.

BTW. How big are armies used in WH40K, on average? I found one instructional video for beginners on Youtube and it featured 10 Marines vs. 20 Tyranids. And the battle seemed to be over in... minutes? A few rounds and the game was over. Is that typical size of armies, or are they larger?

10 marines, depending on what they have probably come in at about 200 points.

The default tournament sized around here is 1750 - 2000 points. A 2000 point game, assuming you're not playing horde armies and are reasonably familiar with the rules, will take about 2 hours.

The largest game I ever played was a 7 a side Apocalypse game, where we had about 40,000 points on each side. It was the Battle for the Emperors Palace, the climax of our Horus Heresy campaign, and played out over an entire weekend. Several titans and superheavies on each side, scores of tanks and hundreds, if not thousands, of infantry models :)

Most games will last about 5-7 turns before they end.

Also, if I may ask: any experience with paints? I browsed GW store and they seem to have different sets of paints: basic, layer, shades, dry (???). Are all of them necessary?

Not to start with. My basic paint job consists of
Spray black
Bolt gun metal silver on the weapons and the joins of the armour
A dot of red on the helmet eye lens
Green on the base
Add some flock to the base to look like grass
I'm done :)

Shading and drybrushing are more advanced painting techniques. The models will look lots better, but they're not things you need to worry about right away.

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Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #34 on: August 10, 2014, 07:01:41 PM »
Honestly the thing that keeps me from playing the tabletop game is the gameplay and story segregation.

As an example: Space marines are supposed to be utter badasses an army made of one-man armies but for the sake of game balance they go down pretty easily to just about anything that's not absolutely pathetic.

In fluff a single squad of Space Marines can conquer an entire world. GW wouldn't have to sell as many for an army in that case ;)

Offline TheGlyphstone

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #35 on: August 10, 2014, 07:02:57 PM »
Honestly the thing that keeps me from playing the tabletop game is the gameplay and story segregation.

As an example: Space marines are supposed to be utter badasses an army made of one-man armies but for the sake of game balance they go down pretty easily to just about anything that's not absolutely pathetic.

Ever see the White Dwarf article for 'Movie Marines'? Optional rules for portraying Space Marines as the unstoppable badasses that Imperial propaganda (aka the fluff) says they are. Vastly more powerful and vastly more expensive, they were very fun. One Marine cost over 100 points, with a 5-6 statline base.
« Last Edit: August 10, 2014, 07:05:39 PM by TheGlyphstone »

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Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #36 on: August 10, 2014, 07:05:11 PM »
I have vague memories of it. The Primarch rules from the HH books would probably be about right for fluff level marines :)

Offline TheGlyphstone

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #37 on: August 10, 2014, 07:08:11 PM »
Yeah, but then how would you represent Primarchs as they're depicted in Fluff?

Here's a fan-recreation of Movie Marines for 5e, mostly compatible now.

http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2009/12/40k-playtest-movie-marines-in-5e.html

Offline BeorningTopic starter

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #38 on: August 10, 2014, 07:09:20 PM »
That is one squad vs. one squad. The minimum army size is 2 troop units and an HQ leader - for marines, that's two 5-10 man teams and a commander, Tyranids would be two 10-30 man teams and a commander.

A typical full-size Space Marine army would probably be around 50 models. An average Tyranid (swarm heavy) would be closer to 100 or more. Depending on whether they are horde-style or elite-style, other armies will swing to one of these averages (certain super-elite armies like Grey Knights can go under 25, but those models will all be extremely costly).

*crunches some number*

That would mean that an average army could cost around... $300 - $400? Not including terrain, paints etc...  :o

*headsplodes*

The starter set you're talking about is the Dark Vengence one. That was brought out for 6th edition, and its not bad for the money. You could probably convert the Dark Angels up as Chaos, and you'd have the beginings of a decent force there. I'm not sure if it has the 7th ed rulebook in it though. If it's been updated to 7th, then yeah, it's a good buy.

Yup, this is what I was talking about. And yes, it's been updated to 7th edition, I checked.

Quote
The models are all snap together ones, so they're not as posable as regular ones, but their simplicity makes them good for absolute beginners, which is what the set is marketed towards.

Ah, so some minis are poseable, too?

Quote
The default tournament sized around here is 1750 - 2000 points. A 2000 point game, assuming you're not playing horde armies and are reasonably familiar with the rules, will take about 2 hours.

That sounds much better :)

Quote
The largest game I ever played was a 7 a side Apocalypse game, where we had about 40,000 points on each side. It was the Battle for the Emperors Palace, the climax of our Horus Heresy campaign, and played out over an entire weekend. Several titans and superheavies on each side, scores of tanks and hundreds, if not thousands, of infantry models :)

My. God.  :o

Offline TheGlyphstone

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #39 on: August 10, 2014, 07:10:33 PM »
Like I said, Plastic Crack.

Offline BeorningTopic starter

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #40 on: August 10, 2014, 07:19:00 PM »
And I'm already in the clutches of the Paper Crack! Meaning, the collective lure of White Wolf and GURPS...

Offline consortium11

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #41 on: August 10, 2014, 07:50:47 PM »
Yeah, but then how would you represent Primarchs as they're depicted in Fluff?

While they themselves are victims of being underpowered in-game compared to the fluff, the fluff generally presents Primarch's as being on roughly the same power level as Greater Daemon's, with the comparison most frequently being made to Bloodthirsters.

The largest game I ever played was a 7 a side Apocalypse game, where we had about 40,000 points on each side. It was the Battle for the Emperors Palace, the climax of our Horus Heresy campaign, and played out over an entire weekend. Several titans and superheavies on each side, scores of tanks and hundreds, if not thousands, of infantry models :)

Pah, that's nothing  :-). Back in the day I once played a second edition game which essentially lasted a week (whole three day weekend, each evening during the working week and the next weekend). Compared to later versions second edition was notably slow and complicated (which I actually enjoyed to an extent) but it did mean that for anything over a 2,000 point game you pretty much had to give up a whole day... if I recall correctly this was pushing 15,000 points and at least once one side's turn took a whole evening.





On the wider topic, 40K (or Fantasy Battle) can be a ruinously expensive hobby (and Games Workshop are more than happy to fleece you for every penny they can) and if you put effort into your painting one that takes up a vast amount of time even before you start playing. In todays age ebay is a godsend for getting models cheaply (or at least cheaper) and if you're inclined that way, ready painted. If I was just starting out I'd be tempted to do that... buy the latest rulebook and then go onto ebay and buy a ready-made army to see how you feel about the game. It's still a big expense (the cheapest Sisters of Battle army I saw on ebay cost 175) but it means you have an army to play with straight away.

From a financial viewpoint you also basically want to find one army and stick to it. Read the fluff (or get an overview of it) to see if it's one that suits you and read what you can of their game play style to see if that likewise suits you before committing. There's little worse than spending a significant amount of money on models and painting them all only to find four games in that you're not really a fan of how they play.

Offline Inkidu

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Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #42 on: August 10, 2014, 07:56:09 PM »
Fluff is very important to me, but I get the need for game balance. I'd probably pick up the WH RPG (forget what it's called, it's been through many incarnations) or the small squad game more than anything.

Kind of like a Desert Rats game with Imperial Guards.

Offline consortium11

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #43 on: August 10, 2014, 08:10:10 PM »
Fluff is very important to me, but I get the need for game balance. I'd probably pick up the WH RPG (forget what it's called, it's been through many incarnations) or the small squad game more than anything.

The "hardcore" roleplaying game was just called Warhammer: Roleplaying Game, wasn't it (or words to that effect)? If I recall correctly it wasn't actually made by Games Workshop and so sort of existed in its own little world. I have fond memories of a Halfling character I eventually evolved to be a witch-hunting inquisitor.

There was also Warhammer Quest, which was a pretty "light" RPG intended for use with figures but which could also be played with simply pen and paper.

My hesitation with recommending small squad games to someone is that they seem to fall out of favour (both with regards to official support and with the player base) relatively quickly. Are the likes of Necromunda, Gorkamorka, Inquisitor or Mordheim (to say nothing of Man O' War, Space Hulk, Battlefleet Gothica etc etc) still played by anyone outside of very occasional one-offs (let alone by Games Workshop)?

Offline TheGlyphstone

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #44 on: August 10, 2014, 08:12:39 PM »
If we're discussing 40K, there's a bunch of RPGs from Fantasy Flight - Dark Heresy, Rogue Trader, Deathwatch, Only War, and Black Crusade.

Fantasy just has the various editions of the Warhammer Fantasy RPG.

Offline Inkidu

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Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #45 on: August 10, 2014, 08:51:54 PM »
Sorry I meant WH40K role playing. I don't find the fantasy counterpart as compelling. Dark Heresy was the one I was thinking of but couldn't recall the name of it.

Offline BeorningTopic starter

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #46 on: August 11, 2014, 12:46:48 PM »
You know, the more I look at the financial side of WH40K, the more I'm scared. It really does seem costly...

On the other hand, it's also sooo tempting! I like collecting stuff  ;D

I wonder what would be the better way to start: buy a starter kit with the thin version of the rulebook and two smallish armies - and then, start expanding both of them gradually? Or, maybe, invest in the big rulebook and just start building one army from scratch?

The starter approach seems more cost-effective... also, I can't see myself going to a shop and playing with strangers. I think I rather need to have the game at home with two armies, so that I could play with my friends...

Hm. It's one important issue, actually: who would I play this game with? It might end up a bit like with my RPG hobby: I have two shelves of books at home which rarely see any use. I only play on the Internet... and you can't really play miniature games on the Internet...

BTW. Wouldn't it be a bit strange, to start playing the game now, with me being 35? Maybe I'm too old for that...

Offline TheGlyphstone

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #47 on: August 11, 2014, 12:51:01 PM »
You can grow old, but you don't have to grow up. Keep any potential neckbeard shaved and you're good.

Offline consortium11

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #48 on: August 11, 2014, 01:21:11 PM »
You know, the more I look at the financial side of WH40K, the more I'm scared. It really does seem costly...

It is. I don't want to put you off but you should go into it with your eyes open. Putting together one army can be vastly expensive, expanding it so you can have multiple options even more so, having multiple armies from different races can be staggeringly expensive. If cost is a concern you may want to look at the armies that generally have less, higher quality troops (so you don't have to buy as many models) and/or those that tend to have lots of plastic figures available (to get the price down).

There are workarounds to the cost, official and unofficial. Ebay is a useful place to get things cheaper, unofficial figures can be substituted in for friendly games etc etc. There are occasionally workarounds using Games Workshop's own merchandise; back in the day the only Terminator models you could buy for 40K were a metal set that cost 25 for five. But the separate Space Hulk game (essentially a sort of Alien/Aliens hybrid) cost 30 and came with 10 plastic terminators. I think I ended up buying Space Hulk three times to get the cheaper figures... (which also left me with a horde of genestealers that became the base of a small Tyranid army I put together).

But it will always be expensive and time consuming.

I wonder what would be the better way to start: buy a starter kit with the thin version of the rulebook and two smallish armies - and then, start expanding both of them gradually? Or, maybe, invest in the big rulebook and just start building one army from scratch?

The starter approach seems more cost-effective... also, I can't see myself going to a shop and playing with strangers. I think I rather need to have the game at home with two armies, so that I could play with my friends...

Buying the starter kit and expanding one (or both) of those armies will almost always be more cost effective then building one from scratch... as long as at least one of those two armies is one you want to play. Obviously it becomes far less cost effective if you buy the starter kit, spend a fair amount more money getting more models for one or both armies only for a month or two down the line actually find that you don't like their playstyle or fluff and you'd prefer to play as another race.
« Last Edit: August 11, 2014, 04:48:54 PM by consortium11 »

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Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #49 on: August 11, 2014, 03:49:54 PM »
Try and find a local gaming store or club. Watch a few games, see how different armies play and then figure out what kind of playstyle you like.

I'm older than you are, and still play. I've played people in their teens, and I've played people in their 50s. There's no set age. Most of the players I know are in their 20s to 40s.