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The Elliquian Herald & Post
Issue 74 (Autumn) ~ August thru October 2017

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Author Topic: WH40000 - what's your opinion?  (Read 88642 times)

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Offline Lustful Bride

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Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #1875 on: November 01, 2016, 08:59:21 AM »
Well..... this was pretty good existential horror.


Offline BeorningTopic starter

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #1876 on: November 07, 2016, 06:41:16 AM »
Meanwhile, I have a big confession to make: I, uhm... dropped WH40K.

There were a few reasons: an enormous amount of time I'd have to spend on painting, the costs, some business practices on GW's part, the lack of female models... even the grimdark of the setting. It's been a great adventure, but I decided to drop it...

Not the mini painting and wargaming, though :D Playing around with WH40K stuff made me realize that I like painting minis. Also, I realized that another game could still keep me interested...

And then, almost by accident, I stumbled onto Infinity :D A sci-fi game by a Spanish company Corvus Belli. And it grabbed my heart. This week, I'm starting with collecting!

So, thank you for introducing me to the miniature hobby, guys! Oh, and BTW. I haven't sold my WH40K RPG books - these I still like. We might still get to playing these game together :)

Offline TheLaughingOne

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #1877 on: November 07, 2016, 09:27:13 AM »
Woo! just signed up to get on the Space Hulk Deathwing closed beta!

And Love the series, not much of a mini player.. Kinda. In my only war group we still use minis for combat, but follow the OW rules for playing, and relaly enhances the experience. granted.. Alot of our minis are custom kitbashes, from heroforge, or other games... but still fun;3

Offline TheLaughingOne

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #1878 on: November 11, 2016, 03:17:02 PM »
I got accepted to the closed beta!! Enjoyable more or less. Cant play campaign, but same multiplayer map over and over for now. And the players... well... heres a scenario i've ran into alot

"Wut? Am suppose to open door, then close, and lock? LOL. No. Powerfist!" *Boom*

*several minutes later*

ZOMG!! Why Is there a hive tyrant doing its Tyranting up my Hive from the direction i left a giant gaping hole in the wall!! Hax!!!!

... Yeah.

Looks awesome, and plays well (though for some reason a guy with an autogun can damage a space marine in terminator armor.. thats like a guy with a .22 short taking out a battleship. And i dont mean in some insane impossible miracle lucky shot style)

I understand they need a threat, but for the game.. Its unrealistic. Terminator armor is pretty much "your a walking god damn tank" Make it so they have lasguns with hot shot packs, or even just hellguns.

But... It is pretty fun, looks good albiet a bit grainy, but they are suppose to be working on it. So far... I like it. Would love a chance to play the campaign rather then trying to solo the missions with no help at all (even when you join with another player..)

Offline Tamhansen

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #1879 on: November 12, 2016, 07:09:11 AM »
Meanwhile, I have a big confession to make: I, uhm... dropped WH40K.

There were a few reasons: an enormous amount of time I'd have to spend on painting, the costs, some business practices on GW's part, the lack of female models... even the grimdark of the setting. It's been a great adventure, but I decided to drop it...

Not the mini painting and wargaming, though :D Playing around with WH40K stuff made me realize that I like painting minis. Also, I realized that another game could still keep me interested...

And then, almost by accident, I stumbled onto Infinity :D A sci-fi game by a Spanish company Corvus Belli. And it grabbed my heart. This week, I'm starting with collecting!

So, thank you for introducing me to the miniature hobby, guys! Oh, and BTW. I haven't sold my WH40K RPG books - these I still like. We might still get to playing these game together :)

Speaking of RPG's have you tried infinity's RPG yet? If not, try this free tester bit
http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/159673/INFINITY-RPG-FREE-Quickstart

Offline greenknight

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #1880 on: November 12, 2016, 11:19:16 AM »
Looks awesome, and plays well (though for some reason a guy with an autogun can damage a space marine in terminator armor.. thats like a guy with a .22 short taking out a battleship. And i dont mean in some insane impossible miracle lucky shot style)

I understand they need a threat, but for the game.. Its unrealistic. Terminator armor is pretty much "your a walking god damn tank" Make it so they have lasguns with hot shot packs, or even just hellguns.

But... It is pretty fun, looks good albiet a bit grainy, but they are suppose to be working on it. So far... I like it. Would love a chance to play the campaign rather then trying to solo the missions with no help at all (even when you join with another player..)
Okaaayy....

In the pre-3rd edition table top, an autogun had a 2 in 6 chance of wounding (5+ on 1d6) and the terminator had a 35 in 36 chance to save (3+ on 2d6). In 3rd and later, it's the same chance to wound and only a 5 in 6 chance to save (2+ on 1d6). Terminators still have only one wound. I don't see the problem, unless the engine is considerably more generous to the autogunner. (And it's really somewhat more akin to modern service rifle in the 5.5 to 8mm range attacking an IFV.)

Offline TheGlyphstone

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #1881 on: November 12, 2016, 12:33:24 PM »
He's comparing it to the fluff, not the wargame rules.

TBF, the wargame rules have the exact same disconnect between rules and fluff on stuff like Terminator durability.

Offline TheLaughingOne

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #1882 on: November 12, 2016, 01:25:19 PM »
Thing is the game is suppose to follow fluff more then tabletop. In fluff marines in regular power armor take hordes of guys firing lasguns and autoguns with "minimal" damage (burns and bruises that would have more effect on a regular human, but thanks to a space marines constitution heal nearly before they notice the wounds. This is something else that the space marines lack, healing is done only with the apothecary, which i find funny, as you are playing can heal from a 7.62 round to the ribs in a matter of moments, you lack regenerating health, while other games "normal" people can heal from 3 loads of deer slugs to the face like its nothing).

Another thing this isnt a tactical turnbased thing, Spacehulk DeathWing is a first person Shooter, so its possible to have several of these guys just unloading on you at full auto firing dozens of rounds cutting you up. I could see them over time doing something, But not as fast as they are right now. Terminator armor is suppose to be several inches of ceramite and adamantine, things that make modern day armor composites look like worn out tin. Granted their gun tech would be better as well, but autoguns are considered bottom barrel weapons with the lowly lasgun sneering down upon it.

If you wanted to compare properly, without hyperbola (like i did) i would say a Space marines standard power armor would be more equivalent to the IFV armor, while Terminator, which usually was suppose to require anti-materiel weaponry, Plasma, Meltas, Lascannons, heavy bolters, power weapons, ect. But here we are with a service rifle thats usually relegated to service in the PDF to help stop against pirates, raiders, and riots, cutting down armor used by the Elite strike force of the Imperium, that is commonly used in fights against other elite troops.

Im not saying they shouldnt be in the game, but they shouldnt be smoking terminators that easily. They should be support for the genestealers (they actually do almost as much damage as a genestealer) and the heavy weapons (so far you can run into guys with missile launchers, which yeah, anti-materiel) let them chip away at the armor, but your main threat should be the heavy weapons, genestealers, and other things your running into.

One additional thing, and this could go with the space marine constitution and durability, the moment your armor is penetrated (another issue, the amount of damage. A gene stealer spreads its damage over the length of a massive swipe, as opposed to the tiny hole a rifle would leave) your dead. Which is fine, against enemies who do massive damage hits, a genestealer should be tearing a marine apart, but against lasguns and autoguns..

They have The Secondary Heart, so if the first is damaged they can keep going, And in addition to that can help increase blood flow and pressure when needed.

The Ossmodula: Causes their bones to grow even more, which is why so many of them are depicted as being around 7 foot tall. Also allows their bones to be reinforced with ceramite and other supplements increasing density and strength. Also causes their ribcage to develop into a mass of armored interlocking plates rendering it almost completely bullet proof.

The Biscopea: increases muscle growth and density, which makes it so their muscles could also stop high caliber rounds.

The Larraman's Organ: releases a material that fills the blood of the recipient, when exposed to air it forms super hard and durable scabs to keep them from bleeding out and promotes fast healing. (novels have scouts healing from rifle shots in minutes leaving only a minor puckered scar)

The Multi-lung: a third lung, increases oxygenation of the blood, and can be used to breath under water (original lungs sealing at the time)

The Sus-an Membrane: an implant that when mortally wounded the marine is put into a state of suspended animation allowing them to survive until help comes (or the enemy finishes them off). When your "killed" your just dead, no chance for the apothecary to come and revive you as he should be able to, instead your stuck waiting for a respawn timer.

And by their powers combined! SPACE MARINES! ARE! CHEESE!!!!!

Well... You get my point.

I dont want them to be some unstoppable killing machines of which there is no chance against... Bt if im playing a space marine in terminator armor, it should feel like a space marine in terminator armor..

Offline TheLaughingOne

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #1883 on: November 12, 2016, 01:25:58 PM »
He's comparing it to the fluff, not the wargame rules.

TBF, the wargame rules have the exact same disconnect between rules and fluff on stuff like Terminator durability.

Thanks Glyph! And Yep! Following fluff more as thats what the game seems to be basing off of more or less..

Offline BeorningTopic starter

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #1884 on: November 12, 2016, 04:27:56 PM »
Speaking of RPG's have you tried infinity's RPG yet? If not, try this free tester bit
http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/159673/INFINITY-RPG-FREE-Quickstart

Interesting! I didn't know it existed. Infinity's setting is certainly interesting enough to merit a roleplaying game.

Offline HairyHeretic

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Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #1885 on: November 19, 2016, 06:55:03 PM »
http://www.warhammer-community.com/2016/11/19/this-december-all-is-dust-and-loads-of-new-books/

http://www.warhammer-community.com/2016/11/19/the-legion-unveiled/



and rumours of plastic Sisters coming in December might tie in with the Codex Imperial Agents in the first link.

I'm just hoping the Traitor Legions supplement is good, though I'm curious what will be in the Index Chaotica: Apocrypha as well. Old Chaos articles maybe?

Offline wander

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #1886 on: November 25, 2016, 06:59:22 PM »
So, I've gone and jumped back in my hobby of old, I bought the 40K Kill Team Box-set, rather than regrab Blood Bowl.

I figured Kill Team is a nice way to keep things manageable due to the small force sizes and I used to love Necromunda back in the day, which the game seems to have some spiritual connection with. And yes, I know there's the Heralds of Ruin rules online too, if I wanted to go campaign.  :-)

I figured I'd share my Skitarii kill-team list here, bare in mind it's been around 15 years since I last touched 40K, so... yeah. ^^;



I'm going with;

A 5-man Vanguard squad, whose alpha will have an Arc Pistol (65pts). One Vanguard is gonna be a Guerilla specialist (Hit and Run, for cheeky use of the assault 3 rad carbines before recharging again  ;D ) and another will be a Dirty Fighter with Blinding Distraction. Essentially this part of the team is going to use Rad Saturation to reduce toughness and be the close-in side of the force that causes a pain to enemy infantry with their radium carbines to the best of their ability. The alpha gets an Arc pistol as I didn't have enough points at the end (see below) to field them with a Power Sword for countering Space Marines, though at least I get to hassle vehicles because of Haywire.

A 5-man Ranger squad, complete with a Transuranic Arquebus (90pts) and this sniper is also the Weapon Specialist with Sharpshooter, because I'm getting my points-worth!  :D I went with the Arquebus as it has that AP3 to counter Marines and is also a decent anti-vehicle weapon. Combine that with allowing the sniper to camp whilst allowing the other Rangers more freedom to get into prime firing positions (combined with Vanguards troubling infantry by reducing their Toughness for easy wounding shots) and we're pretty golden.

I then used the last 45pts to field the Sydonian Dragoon, armed with a Taser Lance. With a Str8 charge at I6 and 3 attacks per assault, combined with it's armour (AV 11 all round), it's there for mobile melee anti-artillery support.

I'm unsure who the Leader would be, though I'm leaning on the Ranger Alpha as they're likely to be farther back, because the Vanguard Alpha is primed to lead the other vanguards from the front to be meatshields support the Ranger fireteam. ^^;



All said and done, getting some plastic Sororitas and a Print Codex would be great stuff. The Chaos Apocyrpha also hits me in my nostalgia organ as on the cover is essentially the same illustration that was on my first bought copy of White Dwarf 20 years ago.  ;D

Offline CopperLily

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #1887 on: December 15, 2016, 08:08:39 PM »
I was wondering: what's your opinion on the WH40000 setting? Interesting? Not interesting? Does it lend itself to serious stories, or is it too silly for that?

Also, have you played any of the related roleplaying games? What are they like? Are they very combat oriented, or can you investigative and social stories with them?

I'll answer this before delving into what the thread is currently on.

One has to acknowledge that "The 40K Setting" is very different things at times. People who grew up with the late-80's/early-90's version have a very different take than say, people who grew up reading Dan Abnett's stuff. This plays into how serious/silly it can be. In my experience, it can be very serious, very silly, or a little bit inbetween.

I've played in a number of related games, and again, they range. I had one that was *very* combat oriented, to the point where we might as well have just played the miniatures game, and one where we spent most of our time trying to foil an arraigned marriage between two noble houses that would end up slightly inconveniencing the Inquisition's current investigations on the planet.

Offline CopperLily

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #1888 on: December 15, 2016, 08:09:47 PM »
He's comparing it to the fluff, not the wargame rules.

TBF, the wargame rules have the exact same disconnect between rules and fluff on stuff like Terminator durability.

If one can find them, the old Movie Marines article in White Dwarf is much closer to "Black Library-style Space Marines".

Offline wander

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #1889 on: December 15, 2016, 11:44:17 PM »
*nods*

I came in to the game in the mid-90s originally, 1995 to be more precise (so 2nd edition was around at this time and a time before Black Library even existed -anyone remember the comics they used to when they first started?- ^^) and at that time there was still a little silly in there (mainly with the Orks being far more hilarious Football Hooligans in SPAAAAACCCEEEEE!!!!) though I could see it starting to slowly get phased out even then when I saw back to the old Rogue Trader era.
So I always think of Orks when I personally remember silly 40K, including the amazingly ace and short-lived Gorkamorka (which was Orks in Mad Max!).

Otherwise, looking at it, part of how wild and silly extreme things got in the setting gave some of the humour, also it was essentially a game that took the mickey out of the 80's Thatcherite Conservative UK when you really look at it. By time I came in to the hobby, these days were mainly gone and it seemed grimdark sold, so Geedubs cashed more towards that angle.

Also an addendum, I've read Thanos Imperative, I'm not a fan of Abnett...

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Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #1890 on: December 15, 2016, 11:47:46 PM »
*Giggle*





Offline wander

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #1891 on: December 16, 2016, 12:05:27 AM »

Keeps the Imperial Guard quiet for a few hours whilst I read the paper, like...

Offline CopperLily

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #1892 on: December 16, 2016, 02:06:23 AM »
*Giggle*





I love these and they will always be amazing.

Offline CopperLily

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #1893 on: December 16, 2016, 02:09:06 AM »
*nods*

I came in to the game in the mid-90s originally, 1995 to be more precise (so 2nd edition was around at this time and a time before Black Library even existed -anyone remember the comics they used to when they first started?- ^^) and at that time there was still a little silly in there (mainly with the Orks being far more hilarious Football Hooligans in SPAAAAACCCEEEEE!!!!) though I could see it starting to slowly get phased out even then when I saw back to the old Rogue Trader era.
So I always think of Orks when I personally remember silly 40K, including the amazingly ace and short-lived Gorkamorka (which was Orks in Mad Max!).

Otherwise, looking at it, part of how wild and silly extreme things got in the setting gave some of the humour, also it was essentially a game that took the mickey out of the 80's Thatcherite Conservative UK when you really look at it. By time I came in to the hobby, these days were mainly gone and it seemed grimdark sold, so Geedubs cashed more towards that angle.

Also an addendum, I've read Thanos Imperative, I'm not a fan of Abnett...

I think part of the problem is the wacky original didn't age or scale well. It feels like what it is - someone's homebrew that's equal part wacky antics with your mates and social commentary. It's a product of its time, but that time has passed. You can see it in other games too - some of the "tech levels" in Traveller for example are hilariously off base.

As for Abnett, I can't vouch for his comics (I don't do comics) but at this point his influence on 40K is pretty inescapable. And is, admittedly, my preferred iteration of the setting.

Offline wander

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #1894 on: December 16, 2016, 12:11:04 PM »
Well... Guess what I read today?  XD

1st edition 40k... Rogue Trader.

It actually had a GM oversee the battles and give handouts to the players with the army lists on, whilst the players could do without and field their own armys like we know now, it's built more to play through one-shot narratives a GM thinks plots for and then referees over. Felt like a very crunchy version of Kill Team, looking at the rules... Especially the way a narrative would be formed before the battle and the game's intro battle had only 15 soldiers on each side. There was notably an Int stat models have that represent how intelligent they are, which decides if they know how to use certain weapons or not. Eldar weapons and Webbers tended to rate highest.

It wasn't actually so wacky as people make out. The Imperium are still pragmatically xenophobic. It's satirical, with occasional thoughts of the day noted in there from their POV; "a small mind is a tidy mind" was one. One proverb reads essentially that the insane are the only ones who give strength to the sane, which speaks something of how 'hell in a hand basket' the Imperium has gone, though it's clear the setting is post-expansion and scientific golden age and humanity have to be so bad in order to survive against the xenos.

Very different in some aspects to what we have now (mainly with the Space Marines being less godly than later fluff makes them out to be), it was still grimdark though it seemed more realistic in why and how it was grimdark though. It made more sense and was more believeable that humans would and could go down that road, given how fierce they had to war against the xenos. Big note; No mentions of Chaos in the corebook, at all...

The Imperium seemed more pragmatic and xenos seemed to be the biggest threat, or inter-human battles between the Imperium and Mercenaries. It seemed the 'evil humans' were more street gangs, pirates and mercs, there was no antagonistic faction that mirrored the Empire. You also had Squats and some other races like the Zoats.

Another thing was a system to assign points yourself to troops and a sort of rpg styled random roll for the troop's weapons. The models also had a slightly more fun look to them, especially the Dreadnoughts that had a big narly 'bullet bill' frowny face painted on their fronts. ^^

Also they showed pics (two at least) of the Emperor in the Golden Throne and talk about that in good detail, they describe it almost as Frankensteinian biotech, something like a mix of technology and living material that encompasses whole rooms of the Imperial Palace where nought but it's body horror workings fill. No buts about it, the Emperor is an immobile corpse being kept spiritually active for the Astronomicon and he still needs to feed off the souls of hundreds of psykers a day... (They're a Lich in every way but name) Which in consideration for the billions of humans out there, is a small price to keep things working.

I think it's the supplements that may have added more of the quirkiness in (only read the corebook), as said before it seemed most stemmed from the Orks. However there were some pics in it of certain Imperial Guardsmen and Squats that would have funny mottos painted on their armour, ala the Colonial Marines from ALIENS.
One Guardsman has 'if you can read this you're dead' daubed on his shoulder pad.  ;D

Also; The Eye of Terror is mentioned as a realm of space where warp storms keep planets out of the circle of things for years and when they pass, when the Eye briefly opens, the Imperium can go and fly to these worlds and get shit in order... Though it reads that the Empire comes in to a planet with little tech or some 2000AD styled cyberpunk world, brutalises people on it and then leave and let them be until next time.  ::) This I payed notice of as Chaos wasn't a thing yet, at least in the corebook, even with the mention of the Eye of Terror.

Basically, 1st edition seemed more like Necromunda one-shot sessions than what we have now... And I gotta be fair, I had a pang of nostalgia over the lighter and more 2000AD style tone of Necromunda and this book than what 40K is today.

Offline HairyHeretic

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Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #1895 on: December 16, 2016, 04:06:47 PM »
I got started with Rogue Trader, and still have most of the Rogue Trader era books. You want to see some really silly stuff, have a look at the old Realms of Chaos books. The only fair fight for a RoC force was another RoC force. Then we had the *ahem* rewards granted by the Chaos Gods to their champions. My all time favourite was my Exalted Champion of Khorne, who received the gift 'fear of blood'.

Didn't stop being a frenzied Khornate loony. Still had more attacks than a small unit on his own, but this meant that for every wound done with (I'm going to say) 2", he had to make a Cool check. This would inevitably result in his running straight into combat, slaughtering all round him, seeing the blood, screaming like a little girl and fainting for several turns.

There was also a minotaur that got Cowardice, which was based solely on number of opposing models. One dragon, no bother, let's be having you, pal! THREE snotlings? ..erm, well, yeah, not so sure about this.

Rogue Trader also had fun things like vortex grenades being available to entire squads. Half a dozen vortex templates moving randomly round the table put paid to the best laid tactical plans :)

It did play a lot more like Necromunda, GorkaMorka or Inquisitor than the 40k we're familiar with today.

It also had the renowned Inquisitor Obiwan Sherlock Clousseau :)

Offline wander

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #1896 on: December 17, 2016, 03:54:01 AM »
Yep, as far as Cowardice is concerned, I have some knowledge of a similarly broken rule in the fanmade rpg based on the Blame! manga, called Blam! It had a rule for being outnumbered that also depended on the number of people not the power of the force, so same thing... Massive huge mecha coming at you? No issue! Two tech-nomads coming at you with sticks and rocks (when you have power armour and a plasma pistol equivalent)... Yep, you're pretty boned...  :D

I did get the Necromunda feel from it (which is a good thing!), also... that Khorne Champion with the fear of blood? That's amazing.  ;D

Offline HairyHeretic

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Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #1897 on: December 17, 2016, 07:07:31 AM »
Yeah, those were the amusing ones. On the flip side, I also got a Khornate lord who was rewarded with Technology from Khorne ... specifically a RT era multi melta. 36" range, S9 and a 3" blast template.

In Fantasy Battles.

This guy could destroy entire units in a single shot every turn.

And demons had weird ally rules, like a bloodthirster could have an axe which contained another bound bloodthirster, which it could release, or summon bound bloodletters. Go up against a non RoC army, and things could get realy nasty for them, real fast.

I did enjoy the warband rules though .. that was just a skirmish game, small warbands and campaign style progression. You could even get chracters killed and have them become undead and keep going.

Offline wander

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #1898 on: December 17, 2016, 08:36:58 AM »
I bought the Dark Eldar codex today as my semi-local GW had them back in after being sold out. They can be hard to play, though I love their fluff and they were my first army for when 3rd edition came out and whilst they're pretty squishy, I love their models and look, genuinely cool to me.  :-)

Kinda wanna make a Kill Team and call them 'The Re' Kataal Routers'... Say that out aloud when noone's about...  ;D :D

About the daemons, I heard in Age of Sigmar before they ruled you need the models in reserves or have spent the actual points in a Pitched Battle for them, you could have daemons summon daemons and then have those daemons summon other daemons and have those summon more daemons and so on ad infinitum... That's a real horror show right there...  XD

I had the staff in-store clarify some questions I've thought about for 7th edition 40K's armour and cover save rules... My friend is going for Tau and I am now severely effin' worried about Markerlights... ^___^;;;

Offline Silk

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #1899 on: December 21, 2016, 12:16:37 PM »
I bought the Dark Eldar codex today as my semi-local GW had them back in after being sold out. They can be hard to play, though I love their fluff and they were my first army for when 3rd edition came out and whilst they're pretty squishy, I love their models and look, genuinely cool to me.  :-)

Kinda wanna make a Kill Team and call them 'The Re' Kataal Routers'... Say that out aloud when noone's about...  ;D :D

About the daemons, I heard in Age of Sigmar before they ruled you need the models in reserves or have spent the actual points in a Pitched Battle for them, you could have daemons summon daemons and then have those daemons summon other daemons and have those summon more daemons and so on ad infinitum... That's a real horror show right there...  XD

I had the staff in-store clarify some questions I've thought about for 7th edition 40K's armour and cover save rules... My friend is going for Tau and I am now severely effin' worried about Markerlights... ^___^;;;

You could but it was also it's own balancing feature, as summoned units don't count towards your army total, but still count towards casualties, So it was quite possible to lose 100+% if you relied on summoning which meant you would lose by default, as win conditions are based on quantities killed.