Topic: WH40000 - what's your opinion?

[Beorning]

Not sure if this is the place to post this.  I might find myself with some time soon and was curious about actually starting an army.

Be forewarned: this game might break your heart... 

[TheGlyphstone]

Be forewarned: this game might break your heart... 

Or at least your wallet.

[Beorning]

Both. Mostly your heart, though...

[HairyHeretic]

I can’t think of any (have very limited knowledge of board games : )). But could you imagine; battle fleet Gothic and Epic 40K played out online…isolated games of each played out across the world with victories and losses in BG having I direct impact on the Epic games(and vice versa)….I know not what you are looking for, but what an integrated, but isolated gaming event this would be….perhaps how it would be in actuality.

It was called the Eye of Terror worldwide campaign, ran in summer of 2003.

http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Eye_of_Terror_Campaign

IMO, Chaos kicked ass. The Cadian system was decimated, and the Imperials only real victories were in BfG. To avoid having the Imperium ruined by this result, it was spun that the Chaos forces won planetside, but the glorious victories of the Imperial Navy meant those were cut off and could eventually be retaken.

Of course, given I was part of the Legion of the Triad, one of the strikeforces that contributed to that overwhelming strategic Chaos victory, I may be a tad biased :)

The rules are out there to refight the campaign at a club level, which is something I think would be a lot of fun to do.

[TheGlyphstone]

Which isn't really spin, once you take the bias factor out. It makes zero sense, since no Chaos force could survive for any length of time when the Imperial forces held the orbitals of the planet, but that's what happens when GW directly translates the results of reported battles into canon fluff. But the entire campaign was like that - the Tau faction pretty much destroyed everything in their path because everyone was focused on reporting battles at the Gate, so they ended up massively expanding the size of their territory despite canonically not having FTL travel anymore.

According to the wiki, at least, the ending had Chaos forces owning a little over half of Cadia itself, a 'minor victory'.
http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Eye_of_Terror_Campaign

But overall it was still better than Storm of Chaos in Fantasy. As an Orc player, I'm still bitter about that.

[HairyHeretic]

There were a miniscule number of BfG battles done, in comparison to 40k ones, so I felt that spin on the results was purely an effort to save face and prevent the Imperium coming out hammered. I think that was the general opinion of a lot of Chaos players back then. The Imperials were outplayed over the entire campaign, only superior numbers allowing them to get the victories they did.

In the Cadian system 2 planets were completely destroyed, 1 reduced to Anarchy (less than 20% Imperial control), 5 Unreliable (20-40% Imperial control) and Cadia itself In The Balance (40-60% Imperial control). Yeah .. <Dr Evil>"minor"</Dr Evil> victory 

And yeah, the less said about Storm of Chaos the better. That campaign was an absolute waste of time.


On a separate note, I'm starting to get ideas for how a strategic level 40k campaign could be played out here ... map based, battles fairly abstract, sort of a mix of the Eye of Terror campaign rules, Planetary Empires and the old Battle for Armageddon board game.

[TheGlyphstone]

You know, in a way I get to blame you and your Triad pals for how Storm of Chaos ended. GW said they'd translate the results of all the reported battles into fluff for Eye of Terror, and the utterly nonsensical results we got were the consequence of that as they tried to stick to their word while simultaneously maintaining the status quo and not upsetting a large portion of their fanbase.

When a completely unexpected result happened again in SoC - Orcs being as organized there as Chaos was in EoT, they threw any promises they had made of players writing the fluff out the window, and we got Grimgor sparing Archaeon's life at the gates of Middenheim before leading the entire massed WAAAAAUGH back home in peace. Cause they had learned their lesson about adhering to campaign outcomes for their predetermined storyline.

[Inkidu]

Kind of a serious question for a game with death-metal rocking green plant-men with Cockney accents, but does anyone kind of get really depressed by the 40K setting? I mean, it's all circling the drain. The average life of the average human is somewhere between the medieval era at best and immediate death by something. Wouldn't surprise me if their weren't millions of humans just not waking up every day because there was nothing worth waking up to.

[TheGlyphstone]

Not really, because if you are taking it seriously you're missing the point. Grimdark is black comedy taken to the extreme; it's so bleak it becomes funny from an out-of-universe perspective.

From the in-universe perspective...remember that the typical Imperial citizen only sees a tiny fraction of what we do. For most Imperial planets, 'only war' is a thing that happens far away, and as far as they are concerned/allowed to know, the heroic warriors of the Imperial Guard are winning in their never-ending grind to destroy the aliens. For the people actually under the knife, it sucks, but they're actually a tiny fraction of the Imperium's total population.

As was said to Beorning way, way upthread, there is no 'average' for a polity as large as the Imperium. Between Hive World, Agri-Worlds, Civilized Worlds, Death Worlds, Shrine Worlds, Forge Worlds, Feudal Worlds, and probably a few other categories I've missed, you're going to see an unimaginable variation in what a 'typical' human will experience.

[Inkidu]

That's why I prefaced with the aforementioned death-metal green soccer hooligans. I also think though that it's only natural from time to time for people (especially people like myself) to think about what a universe as nihilistic as the 40K universe would be like. And while yes a uniform expectation is impossible. There are countless worlds that have probably been wiped out without even Earth knowing. It's arguable that the agri-worlds probably have it better than most because at least they get to live away from constant violence, squalor on an unimaginable level, or twenty-four-hour work cycles like human robots. Yet that still might not save them from being wiped out by their own side, and not because of Chaos but because some mid-level bureaucrat misfiled the standard form that says this planet doesn't get blown up.

There's the age old question about who would ultimately win in the 40K universe, and by cold physical logic it's Grampy Nurgle. He'll be there when humanity goes, he'll be their when the last Eldar craftworld dies, and he'll outlive every other Chaos god that exists. That's why I think Nurgle is by and large so chill. He knows that everyone else--own kind included--is basically renting existence from him, and he's going to be there when the universe expends its last iota of energy to collect all the outstanding loans.

It just strikes me that the universe has all of the downfall ours does, but none of the things that fill it with anything good.   

[TheGlyphstone]

It does, though, on the small scale that most of the regular people are familiar with. The writers don't pay a lot of attention to it because it's not the focus on the setting, but the entire category of a Civilized World is for 'generic' planets that aren't much different than modern-day Earth, allowing for the theocratic nature of society and advanced technology. There are festivals and feast days, people work for wages and have regular jobs in different facets of the economy. Arbites exist to keep criminals in check, and the Guard exists to keep the violence on the frontiers and away from the inner worlds.

If you ignore all that and deliberately focus on the worst bits, of course it looks hopeless and bleak. But there's happiness, and honor, and love, and life, and everything that makes life worth living in small amounts. If nothing else, the fact that Humanity has survived this long in the face of everything that's done its very best to kill it is worthy of inspiration. There's points of light amidst the uberdark if you take the time and effort to look for them, and with good reason, because you need that light to make the darkness have any relevance.

[Inkidu]

The funny thing is that the Milky Way is so large that I do take some consolation that there may be a human empire out their from the days of the Golden Age that has never been touched by Chaos, Xenos, or even the Imperium itself. You know a lost colony situation.

[TheGlyphstone]

There's plenty of them, to the point where the Ecclesiarchy has an entire sub-arm dedicated to 'first-contact specialist' priests - the Missionaria Galaxia, who set up missions on newly rediscovered human worlds to re-integrate them into the Imperial Cult as peaceably and problem-free as possible, while simultaneously evaluating the populace for any hidden taint or corruption. They're also the branch of the Ministorium that sets up schools and hospitals on Feral or Feudal worlds that lack modern medicinal techniques.

[Doomsday]

Who in the Imperium would make the most thematically fun/interesting battle brothers for the Space Wolves? Thinking that once I've built up my SW army to a point, I'd like to buy more Imperium armies and run allied detachments. If Games Workshop ever rebooted the Nuns with Guns, I'd hop on that in a heartbeat, but that's probably an impractical route at this time.

[TheGlyphstone]

White Scars?

[Warlock]

Dark Angels, continual one-upmanship, seething hatred and distrust.

If going for a more mobile force, then we have the Ravenwing and Wolf riders. White Scars are of course also a good candiate for a Kult of Speed.

[HairyHeretic]

Wolves really wouldn't get on with SoBs. The whole God-Emperor bit, I can't see the Wolves buying much into that, particularly when the likes of Bjorn the Fell Handed has actually met the Emperor (or at least was around at the time he was as well).

The Wolves also have a serious dislike for any Inquisitorial forces after the First Armagedden War, and the Grey Knights aren't exactly popular either.

They'd probably find a certain degree of kindred spirits in the White Scars or their successor chapters

[Doomsday]

After doing a lot of thought I'm quibbling between Guard, Dark Angels or Skitarii/AdMech. How easily available are the White Scars?

[HairyHeretic]

In terms of models? Standard marines with a white paint scheme is all you really need to say they're White Scars. Lots of bikes is their thing. Forgeworld or GW probably do an upgrade kit to characterise them a bit.

Dark Angels I would rule out. There's too much history between the two to work that well together under anything less than desperate straights.

AdMech .. maybe. They're very different to the Wolves. Not much in common, but no real reason to dislike them either.

IG might actually be your best choice. If a mortal can show the traits the Wolves value, they could earn their respect and even friendship.

[HairyHeretic]

On a separate note, would anyone be interested in kicking around some idea for a forum based 40k campaign? I'm thinking board game levels of complexity.

[Lustful Bride]

On a separate note, would anyone be interested in kicking around some idea for a forum based 40k campaign?

*Gets excited*

I'm thinking board game levels of complexity.

*D'awws*

But then again I am not a good choice as I play fast and loose with the canon like you wouldn't believe...I actually have an MLP crossover in one of my threads. And yes I laugh at myself everytime I think of it X3

[TheGlyphstone]

Friendship is Heresy. *BLAM*

[Lustful Bride]

Friendship is Heresy. *BLAM*

You haven't even given it a try! *throws my heretical tome on the floor and stomps off, only for a Guardsman to walk up*

[Warlock]

Should be mentioned that white is an absolute pain in the butt to get right when painting. Especially if trying for a brighter white rather than something toward the greyer side of the spectrum.

If the Emperor Had A Text To Speech Device is my personal headcanon for 40k.
Edit: For the Manly Manperor of Mankind!

[Oniya]

Caught in the Shoutbox, saved for the lols.

(14:46:14) TheGlyphstone: and its pretty telling that there is no warhammer australia. grimdark australians would be too badass for anyone else in the world to withstand