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Author Topic: WH40000 - what's your opinion?  (Read 53656 times)

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Offline TheGlyphstone

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #175 on: August 25, 2014, 05:48:24 AM »
Quote
To ask about something else: is Empire's society feudal? I mean, I know that there is the Emperor and the Ecclesiarchy - but are there nobles etc., too? Or is it more of an egalitarian society?

All of the above.

The hardest thing to imagine about the Imperium is its size. There are over a million inhabited planets, ranging from the mega-arcology Hive Worlds, to placid farm-covered Agri-Worlds, to 'ordinary' Civilized Worlds, and all sorts of things in between. The Imperium's population is unimaginably vast - there's a few canon references to planets being forgotten about/lost because a bureaucratic clerk made a rounding error in their records - so you can find a representative population for nearly any opinion, attitude, or situation you can imagine.

As is for the Imperial Creed, is for governments, as discussed upthread. The only thing the Imperium's administration really cares about is A) the planet meeting its tithes, and B) being free of heresy/Chaos. If these two qualifiers are met, the planet's residents are free to govern themselves however they want. Some planets operate on a feudal structure, others don't.

Offline HairyHeretic

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Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #176 on: August 25, 2014, 09:08:35 AM »
There are quite a lot of nobles, yes. The High Lords of Terra rule the Imperium in the Emperors name. Lots of planets have a Planetary Governer who comes from a hereditory ruling family. Rogue Traders often are titled, as are the Knight Households. Military commanders, if they aren't nobles already, will often receive patents of nobility.

As has been said though, in an Imperium of a million worlds, you have an almost infinite possibility on how a given world is governed. A shrine world will be very different to a forge world, and even 'regular' worlds can fall technologically anywhere from pre-Feudal to highly technological.

Offline BeorningTopic starter

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #177 on: August 25, 2014, 03:24:46 PM »
Thank you :)

I was thinking on my fallen Sister and the details of her fall... I think I'll make a follower of Nurgle or Tzeentch. The question is: how does one fall to Tzeentch, exactly? You've given me excellent idea of how one might for to Nurgle. But Tzeentch needs something else, something more... intellectual?

I guess it would have something to do with "forbidden knowledge", but what exactly *is* "forbidden knowledge" in WH40K context?

BTW. Do Chaos gods reach out to their new recruits directly? As in, they manifest and give them powers on the spot?

Offline TheGlyphstone

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #178 on: August 25, 2014, 03:39:04 PM »
Tzeentch draws in its followers with the promise of power, secrets, and knowledge.

A Sister fallen to the Changer of Ways might have started out by seeing how potent the sorceries and magics were of the heretics she killed. Protecting the servants of the Emperor meant she would need equally potent weapons to use against enemy sorcerers, would need to learn their secret weaknesses and vulnerabilities. Killing heretics and burning their books gradually becomes killing heretics and keeping their books to study for advantage against the next group, which gradually becomes killing heretics and keeping their books to use directly against the next group, which eventually becomes using their books to kill the Imperial servants - misguided fools who cannot see what is necessary - who are condemning her as a heretic.

Just As Planned.


The Ruinous Powers can't manifest in the material world, they're too powerful to sustain a manifestation. They usually operate under multiple levels of deceit and false covers initially, and when a message needs to be sent to a follower personally, it'll be a lesser proprietary demon who is dispatched (though even that requires an act of summoning outside extremely volatile regions). On the other hand, they don't need to manifest to grant their Gifts; it just happens.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2014, 03:40:33 PM by TheGlyphstone »

Offline HairyHeretic

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Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #179 on: August 25, 2014, 03:50:27 PM »
I guess it would have something to do with "forbidden knowledge", but what exactly *is* "forbidden knowledge" in WH40K context?

In 40k terms, almost anything ;)

Here's the list of Forbidden Lore skills from Dark Heresy.

The Black Library, Cults, Daemonolgy, Cults, Heresy, Inquisition, Archeotech, Mutants, Ordos, Adeptus Mechanicus, Psychers, Warp, Xenos

and from Black Crusade, a few more

Adeptus Astartes, Codex Astartes, The Horus Heresy and the Long War, Navigators, Pirates

The Imperium doesn't like its normal subjects knowing about anything they don't really need to know for their day to day lives.

Now, if you a Sister falling to Tzeentch, I'd suggest having her form part of the retinue of a charismatic Ordo Hereticus radical Inquisitor.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Recongregationism

This would have her separated from her Sisters who might be able to council her on the wisdom of certain choices. It would also expose her to a lot more of the universe than most would see.

Perhaps she has a run in with a Thousand Sons sorcerer who tells her of his actually meeting the Emperor, and that he was no God. In an effort to prove his 'lies' she delves deeper and deeper into forbidden tomes, where she perhaps finds out that what she thought was true is less .. black and white .. than shes been told.

BTW. Do Chaos gods reach out to their new recruits directly? As in, they manifest and give them powers on the spot?

Not usually. It's more likely to be a manifestation of ability or something.

Offline BeorningTopic starter

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #180 on: August 25, 2014, 03:53:54 PM »
Hmmm. And what could Tzeentch's gift be to a new follower? What would be Nurgle's?

Damn, I really wish I had the BC book at hand. Another reason to find a job finally!

Offline TheGlyphstone

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #181 on: August 25, 2014, 03:58:58 PM »
Nothing, at first. The gifts of the gods aren't signing bonuses, they're rewards for exceptional service - she would spend a long time 'in grade' as a common cultist, possibly awarded some minor beneficial mutation or sorcerous talent if she earned such a prize (for either patron; Khorne is the only power who rejects sorcery entirely, Tzeentch is just the most attuned to it)

Offline BeorningTopic starter

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #182 on: August 25, 2014, 04:21:35 PM »
Hmmm. But we had this nice idea that my Sister falls ill, starts praying and Nurgle answers.

So... how does he answer?

Offline TheGlyphstone

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #183 on: August 25, 2014, 04:53:27 PM »
Papa Nurgle loves his children, all of them. He might answer her prayers by "curing" her - she's still sick, and will never be rid of the sickness, but it doesn't incapacitate her anymore. Maybe it even makes her stronger, or protects her from any lesser illnesses.

The Chaos Gods don't hand out gifts as signing bonuses. What you're describing is more like a drug dealer giving out the first hit for free, that is absolutely something they do. So while Nurgle would totally answer her prayers to gain a recruit, especially when it's something so minor as 'fixing' an illness, that'd be it for spiffy Nurglesque powers until she proved herself a truly loyal devotee of the Plague Lord.

Offline Inkidu

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Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #184 on: August 25, 2014, 05:07:48 PM »
Grandpappy Nurgle might actually give you a signing bonus. He's generally the um... most charitable of the four Chaos gods. He might bless you by making you free of pain because he's rotted your nervous system from the inside out so you spew plague with each step.

If you get a gift from Tzeetch it's probably furthering his plans in some way and you'll most likely never get to using it before dying.

There's a reason why Abadon is special. (Hope I spelled that right.)

Offline HairyHeretic

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Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #185 on: August 25, 2014, 05:32:31 PM »
Papa Nurgle loves his children, all of them. He might answer her prayers by "curing" her - she's still sick, and will never be rid of the sickness, but it doesn't incapacitate her anymore. Maybe it even makes her stronger, or protects her from any lesser illnesses.

Yep. Nurgles supernatural plagues will happily beat the snot out of any normal diseases that happen along ;)

The Chaos Gods don't hand out gifts as signing bonuses. What you're describing is more like a drug dealer giving out the first hit for free, that is absolutely something they do. So while Nurgle would totally answer her prayers to gain a recruit, especially when it's something so minor as 'fixing' an illness, that'd be it for spiffy Nurglesque powers until she proved herself a truly loyal devotee of the Plague Lord.

When she does things that gain Nurgle favour .. spreading diseases or combating the agents of Tzeentch, he's likely to give her additional rewards. Nurgles chosen have literally superhuman toughness, and their bodies are desensitised to pain. They can take wounds that would have anyone else writhing on the ground, laugh them off and keep coming.

Offline BeorningTopic starter

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #186 on: August 25, 2014, 06:34:49 PM »
You made me remember that Tzeentch and Nurgle are at odds... which makes my character funky, as I wanted her to follow both of these gods. My reasoning was that she gets sick, Nurgle "cures" her... so she starts questioning her beliefs and researching forbidden knowledge. Making her a potential Tzeentch follower, too...

Offline HairyHeretic

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Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #187 on: August 25, 2014, 07:03:32 PM »
A character can choose to be Undivided, and not pledge themselves to any one of the Chaos powers. Sooner or later, their inclinations will probably align them to one over the others though.

Swearing to Nurgle and then expressing an interest in Tzeentch is a one way ticket to instant Chaos spawn-hood :)

Offline BeorningTopic starter

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #188 on: August 25, 2014, 07:06:23 PM »
Heh.

BTW. Is it me, or is "Nurgle" a really cute name? Nurgle... gurgle... it rolls on the tongue so pleasantly...  ;D

Offline HairyHeretic

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Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #189 on: August 25, 2014, 07:10:23 PM »
Possibly based off of Nergal. GW has a habit of rifling through assorted world mythologies for names :)

Offline BeorningTopic starter

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #190 on: August 25, 2014, 07:14:39 PM »
Oh. I thought it was based on some guttural sound. Because Nurgle is about diseased guts and all that...

Offline TheGlyphstone

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #191 on: August 25, 2014, 07:22:33 PM »
Nurglings are pretty cute themselves. Roly-poly little walking lumps of plague, who giggle and cavort about gleefully.

Offline BeorningTopic starter

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #192 on: August 25, 2014, 07:34:44 PM »
Now I want one!  ;D

Offline TheGlyphstone

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #193 on: August 25, 2014, 07:38:22 PM »
Now I want one!  ;D


About the size of a small dog. Isn't it adorable?

Offline BeorningTopic starter

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #194 on: August 25, 2014, 07:39:33 PM »
*pats*

Adorable indeed!

Offline TheGlyphstone

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #195 on: August 25, 2014, 08:41:05 PM »
Oh. I thought it was based on some guttural sound. Because Nurgle is about diseased guts and all that...

That's the visual motif. Nurgle's entire portfolio is Despair, Death, and Decay. He's stagnation and futility, the inevitability that everything will die and rot in the end and nothing you can do about anything really matters in the long run. But he loves his children, so he gives them gifts to stave off that eventual death (at the cost of extending their suffering), and spreads his creations around as much as possible so that everyone can have the joy of experiencing pneumo-encephalo-Ebola-AIDS or whatever he cooked up in his cauldrons before breakfast that morning.

This, naturally, makes him the (im)mortal enemy of Tzeentch, patron of eternal change and uncontrollable random growth. If a Nurgle cultist tried to switch allegiances to Tzeentch, it would be a race to see which of the two gods could kill/spawnify them first.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2014, 08:44:09 PM by TheGlyphstone »

Offline BeorningTopic starter

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #196 on: August 28, 2014, 08:33:03 AM »
Ha! Today, I've seen and touched WH40K miniatures!

... oh dear, these things really are *mini*...

I know they are that small so that playing with them wouldn't require a giant-sized table. Still, they'd look much better if they were at least two times bigger. And it'd be easier to paint them, too.

Also, I checked the prizes at the shop I visited and... this hobby really *is* expensive. The starter set (Dark Vengeance) is about $100. One would also need to buy some paints and stuff... that would be another $100. Add some additional codexes and a "how to paint" guide and you can spend almost a month's salary on that stuff...

Another observation: this hobby really seems to be male-dominated. When I was at the shop, there were customers of various ages... but all of them were male. Hrmf!
« Last Edit: August 28, 2014, 08:34:57 AM by Beorning »

Offline Hemingway

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #197 on: August 28, 2014, 03:20:22 PM »
A few tips: If you're going to play one of the sides in Dark Vengeance, sell the other half. You'll be able to make back at least some of the money that way. It also has a paperback version of the rules book, which can be expensive to buy separately.

Getting a Codex is useful, as you're going to want to know your options in kitting out your guys. It's not strictly mandatory as you're starting out, though. GW are incredibly protective of their IP, but you can usually find all the info except point costs by googling armies others have made - or by asking around.

I've never bought a guide on painting. There are great tutorials available online.

And lastly, Citadel paints and brushes tend to be ridiculously overpriced - you can usually find cheaper alternatives. I'm a fan of the paints myself, but I get my brushes elsewhere.

Another observation: this hobby really seems to be male-dominated. When I was at the shop, there were customers of various ages... but all of them were male. Hrmf!

I saw a girl at Games Workshop. Once.

Offline BeorningTopic starter

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #198 on: August 28, 2014, 03:31:13 PM »
A few tips: If you're going to play one of the sides in Dark Vengeance, sell the other half. You'll be able to make back at least some of the money that way. It also has a paperback version of the rules book, which can be expensive to buy separately.

The paperback version of the rulebook in DV is one of the things that makes me consider buying this set. The separate rulebook costs as much as the whole DV set...

As for selling one of the DV armies: I considered keeping both of them, so that I have a playable, two-person game at home. Also, I have this crazy (and costly) idea of expanding the Space Marines side into combined Marines + Sisters army... as well as turning the Chaos Marines side into Chaos Marines + Demons horde.

But I know it may require an insane amount of money...  ::)

BTW. When it comes to selling miniatures: is it better to sell them unassembled and still attached to their plastic frames? Assembled, but unpainted? Painted?

Quote
And lastly, Citadel paints and brushes tend to be ridiculously overpriced - you can usually find cheaper alternatives. I'm a fan of the paints myself, but I get my brushes elsewhere.

Any names for the alternatives? I wouldn't even know where to look for them...

BTW. When I was at the shop, I witnessed a Warhammer Fantasy Battle game. Cool! It was elves vs skavens. Poor skavens got their hairy butts kicked...

Offline Hemingway

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #199 on: August 28, 2014, 03:36:34 PM »
BTW. When it comes to selling miniatures: is it better to sell them unassembled and still attached to their plastic frames? Assembled, but unpainted? Painted?

I don't know, but that'd be my guess.

Any names for the alternatives? I wouldn't even know where to look for them...

I don't know any specific names. The store I currently go to isn't an actual Games Workshop, so they actually carry non-Citadel stuff. I'd imagine a place like that would be a good place to start, if you have any close to you. Or order online! Never tried that, but you can get anything online these days, so why not?

Quote
BTW. When I was at the shop, I witnessed a Warhammer Fantasy Battle game. Cool! It was elves vs skavens. Poor skavens got their hairy butts kicked...

WHB is indeed an excellent game. It's quite different from 40K in a lot of ways. It generally requires more models to play, though, so it's probably more expensive.