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Author Topic: WH40000 - what's your opinion?  (Read 53201 times)

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Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #1625 on: February 06, 2016, 04:20:10 PM »
I know... Still, it doesn't mean it's easy to actually RP such stuff.

Alright, another topic:

In some WH40K RP games (like Deathwatch or Black Crusade) there are limited options for character types. In BC, half of the basic archetypes are Chaos Space Marines. In Deathwatch, *all* of the characters are Space Marines. Isn't it a problem? I mean, how much diversity can there be among Space Marines? They are all big, strong guys with guns...

*nods* That's is why I prefer to stay with the Imperial Guard as my Good Guys. They are just normal humans trying to defend their lands and worlds against all manner of lovecraftian and soul crushing perils that only wish genocide upon them. They are the most sympathetic and relatable I feel.

the second part of that sounds like a case of "ALL Jedi or NO Jedi"

Spoiler: Click to Show/Hide

But I think you can get around it if you make the characters interesting, make them something worthy of either being in the support role (Because even the best of soldiers need a medic or someone providing covering fire) or be skilled enough in a niche to be of use to the big tanks :P

Offline TheGlyphstone

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #1626 on: February 06, 2016, 04:27:37 PM »
And even the Guard get things like marching battalions of conscripts through mine fields to clear them, because it's cheaper and faster than actually sweeping the mines safely.

All Jedi or No Jedi is pretty much how BC ends up being played, I think. It's theoretically supposed to be balanced in that the Chaos Marine archetypes are pretty much only useful in combat, with the Heretics getting access to all of the non-combat utility (including the ability to be seen in public without provoking a planet-wide panic). But being as how it's a game about Chaos worshippers, combat and violence end up solving most problems anyways.
« Last Edit: February 06, 2016, 04:37:36 PM by TheGlyphstone »

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Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #1627 on: February 06, 2016, 04:37:05 PM »
And even the Guard get things like marching battalions of conscripts through mine fields to clear them, because it's cheaper and faster than actually sweeping the mines safely.

All Jedi or No Jedi is pretty much how BC ends up being played, I think. It's theoretically supposed to be balanced in that the Chaos Marine archetypes are pretty much only useful in combat, with the Heretics getting access to all of the non-combat utility. But being as how it's a game about Chaos worshippers, combat and violence end up solving most problems anyways.

To be fair that's the way their war is. A soldier's life is cheap but its worth it if there is success in the end. Its basically the Red Army vs the Iron Legion, all those casualties are worth it if they can stop or at least slow down the enemy war machine.


Offline TheGlyphstone

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #1628 on: February 06, 2016, 04:39:23 PM »
To be fair that's the way their war is. A soldier's life is cheap but its worth it if there is success in the end. Its basically the Red Army vs the Iron Legion, all those casualties are worth it if they can stop or at least slow down the enemy war machine.

Indeed, which ties back to the original topic. It's awful, terrible, and amoral, but above all it's necessarily. The sheer danger level that the enemies of Humanity present means that anything less than total commitment and total ruthlessness will end in defeat. Xenos, mutant, heretic - they're all The Enemy, and it's a kill-or-be-killed world out there. Them or Us.

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Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #1629 on: February 06, 2016, 04:45:41 PM »
Indeed, which ties back to the original topic. It's awful, terrible, and amoral, but above all it's necessarily. The sheer danger level that the enemies of Humanity present means that anything less than total commitment and total ruthlessness will end in defeat. Xenos, mutant, heretic - they're all The Enemy, and it's a kill-or-be-killed world out there. Them or Us.

"Peace Through Power!"

Yes, its a sad world and I would never want to reside in it...but at the same time its so fascinating to explore and play in.

Offline Wajin

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #1630 on: February 06, 2016, 07:53:44 PM »
I know exactly where you're coming from Beorning, I had this problem the first few times I tried to do anything related to RP and the Ordo Xenos... Then I read my great-grandfather's diary from the second Sino-Japanese War... And then I realized that this world, just 70 years ago, was just as, if not worse than some of what goes on in 40k. I started tallying up pros and cons for the Ordo Xenos, dug through lore, and came to the conclusion that if I was surrounded by: Living warrior fungi, hyper advanced space communists, immortal metal Egyptians, a constantly evolving locust swarm hell bend on eradicating my species, almost immortal arrogant near humans with technology I couldn't even imagine and psychic powers beyond my wildest dreams, living space sludge with a love for improving tech. And knowing that they all want me dead, and to think that you've known for thousands of years, I think I'd be pretty xenophobic myself, because I think it's quite a rational response to what's going on with the imperium

Just for good measure, a list of the species I talked about:
Orks
Tau
Necrons
Tyranid
Eldar
Hrud

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Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #1631 on: February 06, 2016, 08:52:23 PM »
I know exactly where you're coming from Beorning, I had this problem the first few times I tried to do anything related to RP and the Ordo Xenos... Then I read my great-grandfather's diary from the second Sino-Japanese War... And then I realized that this world, just 70 years ago, was just as, if not worse than some of what goes on in 40k. I started tallying up pros and cons for the Ordo Xenos, dug through lore, and came to the conclusion that if I was surrounded by: Living warrior fungi, hyper advanced space communists, immortal metal Egyptians, a constantly evolving locust swarm hell bend on eradicating my species, almost immortal arrogant near humans with technology I couldn't even imagine and psychic powers beyond my wildest dreams, living space sludge with a love for improving tech. And knowing that they all want me dead, and to think that you've known for thousands of years, I think I'd be pretty xenophobic myself, because I think it's quite a rational response to what's going on with the imperium

Just for good measure, a list of the species I talked about:
Orks
Tau
Necrons
Tyranid
Eldar
Hrud

At the end of the day, all every Human in this terrible war has, is the fellow Human by their side, the weapon in their hands and the Emperor in their hearts.

Offline TheGlyphstone

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #1632 on: February 07, 2016, 01:46:19 AM »
living space sludge with a love for improving tech.

Hrud

Have the Hrud gotten more official material describing them? As far as Lexicanum goes, the last time they got any canon attention was in Xenology, where they were described as "a misshapen morass of decomposing filth" with all their limbs having "a bone structure similar to the human spine allowing the limbs to bend in any direction" - fairly summed up as 'living space sludge', but nothing about them liking to improve tech in any way. That sounds more like a Jokaero trait - Hrud have their weird warp-plasma weapons and obscure tech related to dimension-shifting and temporal distortions, but nothing about improving on existing tech or other people's tech.

Offline Wajin

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #1633 on: February 07, 2016, 09:36:57 AM »
Have the Hrud gotten more official material describing them? As far as Lexicanum goes, the last time they got any canon attention was in Xenology, where they were described as "a misshapen morass of decomposing filth" with all their limbs having "a bone structure similar to the human spine allowing the limbs to bend in any direction" - fairly summed up as 'living space sludge', but nothing about them liking to improve tech in any way. That sounds more like a Jokaero trait - Hrud have their weird warp-plasma weapons and obscure tech related to dimension-shifting and temporal distortions, but nothing about improving on existing tech or other people's tech.

I know 1d4chan isn't really an overly reliable source, but I've found quite a few of their articles to be more well updated than the Lexicanum equivalents

https://1d4chan.org/wiki/Hrud#Techno-Warpy_Goodness basically, they're masters at reverse engineering, as well as adapting technology to fit theirs.

Offline TheGlyphstone

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #1634 on: February 07, 2016, 11:08:52 AM »
That might be fanon though, so it's hard to judge. Lexicanum at least only quotes directly from canon material - I love 1d4Chan, but it's still a 'Chan wiki, and wouldn't top my list of fully reliable material.

Offline Wajin

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #1635 on: February 07, 2016, 11:22:26 AM »
That might be fanon though, so it's hard to judge. Lexicanum at least only quotes directly from canon material - I love 1d4Chan, but it's still a 'Chan wiki, and wouldn't top my list of fully reliable material.

I would agree, I recall having read about their handling of technology in a book published by Black library years ago, but I can't for the life of me remember which it was. I remember it was just like, a passing comment on Hrud in response to someone calling them primitive. With regards to 1d4chan in general, while it's obviously filled to the brim with fanon, /tg also have some proper fluff experts who I think by some stretch knows the fluff better than GW. regardless of the retconned nature of that fluff of course.

Offline TheGlyphstone

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #1636 on: February 07, 2016, 11:41:46 AM »
I think it's more that they take vague lines in official fluff, and expand it until it makes sense to them, plus a hefty dose of 'Chan humor.

 In the case of the technology thing, looking at Lexicanum again says they are "expert scavengers of technology to the point that they can easily assemble a mongrel collection of weapons and devices with the resources they have at their disposal."

Compared to the 1d4chan line of "...the Hrud race are fantastic at reverse-engineering and scavenging....the Hrud usually end up wielding whatever weapon they stole fused with their own technology."

Basically the same thing, but in a more approachable and colloquial sort of language.

Offline BeorningTopic starter

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #1637 on: February 11, 2016, 03:38:08 PM »
I have another kind of question: Black Crusade. What would you do with this game?

I have a problem with this game, as it has this explicit goal of the PCs having to work toward earning the Chaos Gods' favour and winning Daemonhood. Which makes it seem like the game would be mainly about the PCs doing various awful things that might be appealing to the Gods: spreading plagues, killing Space Marines and Imperial soldiers etc. It seems a bit... limited. Is there something more interesting that could be done with this game?

Offline Wajin

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #1638 on: February 11, 2016, 03:54:15 PM »
I have another kind of question: Black Crusade. What would you do with this game?

I have a problem with this game, as it has this explicit goal of the PCs having to work toward earning the Chaos Gods' favour and winning Daemonhood. Which makes it seem like the game would be mainly about the PCs doing various awful things that might be appealing to the Gods: spreading plagues, killing Space Marines and Imperial soldiers etc. It seems a bit... limited. Is there something more interesting that could be done with this game?

I have seen hacks that try to add more possibilities in terms of "winning conditions."
« Last Edit: February 11, 2016, 04:11:28 PM by Wajin »

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Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #1639 on: February 11, 2016, 03:57:06 PM »
I have another kind of question: Black Crusade. What would you do with this game?

I have a problem with this game, as it has this explicit goal of the PCs having to work toward earning the Chaos Gods' favour and winning Daemonhood. Which makes it seem like the game would be mainly about the PCs doing various awful things that might be appealing to the Gods: spreading plagues, killing Space Marines and Imperial soldiers etc. It seems a bit... limited. Is there something more interesting that could be done with this game?

Trying to undermine other Chaos Gods to please their own, Getting Orks and other such lesser races to do their bidding. Possibly Inadvertedly helping the Imperium by fighting a common foe, though only through the shadows.

If you wanted to add more to it, maybe there is something more terrible out there, that even the Chaos Gods fear, something from beyond even the warp. Lovecraftian in nature.

Offline HairyHeretic

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Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #1640 on: February 11, 2016, 04:06:44 PM »
I have another kind of question: Black Crusade. What would you do with this game?

I have a problem with this game, as it has this explicit goal of the PCs having to work toward earning the Chaos Gods' favour and winning Daemonhood. Which makes it seem like the game would be mainly about the PCs doing various awful things that might be appealing to the Gods: spreading plagues, killing Space Marines and Imperial soldiers etc. It seems a bit... limited. Is there something more interesting that could be done with this game?

Why would those not be interesting?

We were the monsters you wanted, the weapons you shaped us to be. We sacrificed all to be what you needed, and you dare .. you DARE .. censure us for doing that, for doing just what it was you wanted? We brought scores of worlds to compliance, and for every one we visited, for every one where they learned to fear the night, five, ten, twenty would surrender for fear they would be next.

We are the ones betrayed. That bitch assassin was allowed .. allowed, not able .. to take our father. To prove the truth of his words. Well, listen to the truth of my words. I will burn one world in the name of each of my brothers, and when the ashes of those worlds burn cold, my fathers words will be all that remains.


All you need is the right motivation for your bad guys :)

Offline BeorningTopic starter

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #1641 on: February 12, 2016, 01:24:13 PM »
My problem is that there doesn't seem to be much of a story here...

With the goal being so specific and defined (and, apparently, known by the PCs), I see every adventure as beginning with cold planning: "What shall we do to please our masters now? How about slaughtering a planet of innocents?". Then, the PCs would travel to the location, execute the plan... and that's it.

But maybe I'm misreading things... Could the PCs have other goals? Could, say, a renegade warrior try to free his sector from the Imperium and honestly better the people's lives? Without trying to please the Chaos Gods?

BTW. Are the four Tome supplements worth of purchasing?
« Last Edit: February 12, 2016, 01:29:11 PM by Beorning »

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Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #1642 on: February 12, 2016, 02:11:12 PM »
But maybe I'm misreading things... Could the PCs have other goals? Could, say, a renegade warrior try to free his sector from the Imperium and honestly better the people's lives? Without trying to please the Chaos Gods?

BTW. Are the four Tome supplements worth of purchasing?

Knowing the Chaos gods...they might just let that happen, just so that they can then destroy the world and let that person watch as everything they worked for becomes the undoing of the world and people they loved so much.


I've been kind of looking forward to Total War Warhammer (aka the possible future of 40K X3)  and learning about the Endtimes, I'm curious is there anyone who'd like to play a game set in then? Perhaps in some keep that escaped the damage mostly unscathed, a small place where people from all over would come to trade, and the characters all trying to deal with the aftermath of such massive destruction. 

Offline HairyHeretic

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Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #1643 on: February 12, 2016, 02:14:51 PM »
You probably could do that, but Black Crusade might not be the best game to run it under. If you're playing Black Crusade, then you are a heretic, at least from the Imperiums perspective. Most, but not all, will have some link to the Chaos Gods.

And, as the saying goes, the road to hell is paved with good intentions.

The Imperium is massive and monolithic. Someone wanting to free his world, his sector, they can't do it alone. They need a backer. So they turn to Chaos. They make bargains, with the best of intentions. Each action takes them that step further. Each decision, rationally made, draws them in that bit deeper.

Read the Eisenhorn trilogy, you'll see how it goes.

I think the 4 Tomes are good, but you'd want to be sure you want to play the game, and enjoy it, before getting them, otherwise they're not going to do you any good.

Offline BeorningTopic starter

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #1644 on: February 12, 2016, 03:23:08 PM »
You probably could do that, but Black Crusade might not be the best game to run it under. If you're playing Black Crusade, then you are a heretic, at least from the Imperiums perspective. Most, but not all, will have some link to the Chaos Gods.

And, as the saying goes, the road to hell is paved with good intentions.

The Imperium is massive and monolithic. Someone wanting to free his world, his sector, they can't do it alone. They need a backer. So they turn to Chaos. They make bargains, with the best of intentions. Each action takes them that step further. Each decision, rationally made, draws them in that bit deeper.

So, you can tell this kind of story - of PCs who are well-intentioned dabblers in Chaos getting drawn deeper and deeper? See, this is the kind of thing I'd like seeing in a Black Crusade game...

Quote
I think the 4 Tomes are good, but you'd want to be sure you want to play the game, and enjoy it, before getting them, otherwise they're not going to do you any good.

I wish somebody run this game for me, then :( I'd really like to see this in action...

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Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #1645 on: February 12, 2016, 05:04:58 PM »
I'd just like to see a Black Crusade game that lasted :) I swear, that game is cursed around here.

Offline TheGlyphstone

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #1646 on: February 12, 2016, 08:55:56 PM »
Ironically appropriate, really. All system games are doomed to fail quickly here, 40K games in particular have a habit of dying even before they get IC.

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Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #1647 on: February 12, 2016, 08:56:53 PM »
Ironically appropriate, really. All system games are doomed to fail quickly here, 40K games in particular have a habit of dying even before they get IC.

*nods sadly* I remember one where it followed fighter pilots and was cool. but dried up after a few posts.

Offline BeorningTopic starter

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #1648 on: February 13, 2016, 12:12:03 AM »
But isn't it a bit weird, considering we've been able to keep that thread running for over 1.5 year now? It shows that there are a few reliable posters interested in WH40K...

Offline TheGlyphstone

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #1649 on: February 13, 2016, 12:15:00 AM »
The trick is finding someone who's capable of and interested in running it. The usual plenty-of-players, no-GM situation, magnified by the small pool of players to begin with.