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The Elliquian Herald & Post
Issue 74 (Autumn) ~ August thru October 2017

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Author Topic: WH40000 - what's your opinion?  (Read 88566 times)

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Offline TheGlyphstone

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #1600 on: February 02, 2016, 07:05:50 PM »
That depends on your definition of long-lived - and, for that matter, your definition of immortal. The only true immortal among the primarchs is Vulkan; you kill him, and he will spontaneously come back to life. The others can at least be killed, and none of them lived long enough to know if they die of old age; Guilleman and El'Jonson are technically still alive, but they've been in stasis so it doesn't count. There's no evidence of any Space Marine dying of old age, but that's in large part because they get killed in battle first. So it's impossible to say for certain.

Offline BeorningTopic starter

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #1601 on: February 02, 2016, 07:07:57 PM »
I'm asking, because I was reading through the WH40K timeline today and I noticed that the Horus Heresy seemed to have started about a thousand years after Horus' creation..?

Offline TheGlyphstone

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #1602 on: February 02, 2016, 07:25:59 PM »
It was only about 250 years, actually.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/M30
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/M31

The Primarchs were created in 750.M30. Horus formally swore his loyalty to the Chaos Powers in 004.M31, so that's the 'beginning' of the Heresy. The Battle of Terra ended the Heresy in 014.M31, ten years later.

Offline BeorningTopic starter

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #1603 on: February 02, 2016, 08:01:48 PM »
I see. Thanks :)

Offline Wajin

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #1604 on: February 03, 2016, 03:45:30 AM »
*Shivers with excitement* Only a little over a month till Battlefleet Gothic: Armada. Space Hulk: Rise of the Terminators seems to be shaping up quite nicely too. We're gonna be spoiled for 40k this year it seems. t

Also, thought I'd share these three here



All done by the Blizzard Entertainment Artist Even Asmundsen

Offline arkhos

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #1605 on: February 03, 2016, 08:37:32 AM »
*Shivers with excitement* Only a little over a month till Battlefleet Gothic: Armada. Space Hulk: Rise of the Terminators seems to be shaping up quite nicely too. We're gonna be spoiled for 40k this year it seems. t

Also, thought I'd share these three here

All done by the Blizzard Entertainment Artist Even Asmundsen


(Sigh) Harlequins. So awesomesauce. :)


Offline BeorningTopic starter

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #1606 on: February 06, 2016, 01:23:57 PM »
So, I was reading through Enemies Without (a sourcebook on Inquisition's Ordo Xenos) today and I've found myself... mildly appaled.

You know, I can make to see the Inquisition point when it comes to the heretics. I can certainly see the point of them purging any kind of Chaos activity... But purging aliens? I don't know. That's one thing I can't justify. The way the Imperium just slaughters innocent lifeforms is... awful. I'm not sure I can get behind something like that in a RP...

Offline TheGlyphstone

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #1607 on: February 06, 2016, 01:31:43 PM »
We've been over this before, haven't we? Everyone in 40K is awful and terrible. All of the authorities are fanatical, brutal, intolerant, and/or corrupt. Even the Sisters, who you love cause space nuns  ;D, are obsessive zealots for whom the galaxy comes in two flavors - loyal human, or on fire.

Plus, aliens can be incredibly dangerous, as literally every spacefaring xenos race demonstrates. There is no 'innocent' for anyone in 40K, only varying degrees of guilt. Just because they're not dangerous to humanity now does not mean they won't become dangerous later. And if you wait until they are dangerous to wipe them out, it will put more human blood on your hands. Better to be safe and exterminate them before they are capable of killing people.
« Last Edit: February 06, 2016, 01:39:31 PM by TheGlyphstone »

Offline BeorningTopic starter

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #1608 on: February 06, 2016, 02:08:48 PM »
Yeah, I know we've been talking about this before. Still, today I was just... hit with it.

It's just hard for me to GM a game where you play on the side of an organisation that literally genocidal. For the same reason, I can't get into Black Crusade - because when I look at it, it basically seems to be a game about mass slaughtering of innocents...

Online Oniya

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #1609 on: February 06, 2016, 02:19:34 PM »
At least as the GM, you can choose what sort of critter you are sending your PCs up against.  Defeating something akin to the Borg in Star Trek, or the xenomorphs in Alien is far easier to justify since allowing it to survive is essentially a death sentence for anything it comes across.

Offline BeorningTopic starter

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #1610 on: February 06, 2016, 02:33:55 PM »
That's true...

Okay, I have a question: we know that the Imperium believes in purging the aliens, exterminating the mutants etc. But... do you think they are right to do so? Is it supposed to be the objective truth that the humanity cannot coexist with aliens and mutants - or is it simply the matter of the Imperium being misguided?

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Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #1611 on: February 06, 2016, 02:39:00 PM »
That's true...

Okay, I have a question: we know that the Imperium believes in purging the aliens, exterminating the mutants etc. But... do you think they are right to do so? Is it supposed to be the objective truth that the humanity cannot coexist with aliens and mutants - or is it simply the matter of the Imperium being misguided?

I think there used to be lore somewhere that there were aliens that were sanctioned and under the Imperium's rule. So not Every alien it seems, just those that would challenge Human dominance and the Imperium's place.

Offline TheGlyphstone

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #1612 on: February 06, 2016, 02:51:15 PM »
The Emperor himself was a human supremacist - during the Great Crusade, he ruthlessly exterminated any aliens he came across, because they were aliens and a planet occupied by aliens was one less planet available to humans. So they're very much still following in His footsteps there; if anything, the rare examples of sanctioned or otherwise tolerated Xenos, like the Jokaero, are a deviation from the Emperor's original plan. But generally yes, the only xenos allowed to live are the ones who can be used to benefit humanity's supremacy, or otherwise directly advance human interests above all else. And even then their sufferance is on a razor's edge and subject to revocation at any time.

As for if it's possible for sapient aliens and humans to live as equals? Not by example of literally every other canon xenos race in the setting that I can think of.
« Last Edit: February 06, 2016, 02:55:14 PM by TheGlyphstone »

Offline BeorningTopic starter

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #1613 on: February 06, 2016, 03:02:49 PM »
Jokaero. Who the heck are the Jokaero?

*goes googling*

Online Changingsaint

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #1614 on: February 06, 2016, 03:04:19 PM »
That's true...

Okay, I have a question: we know that the Imperium believes in purging the aliens, exterminating the mutants etc. But... do you think they are right to do so? Is it supposed to be the objective truth that the humanity cannot coexist with aliens and mutants - or is it simply the matter of the Imperium being misguided?

Most of the 'big' aliens are well, I don't want to say exterminating them is right, but you have to look at the big players.

Orks: A race utterly dedicated to war and killing because they see it as fun. Impossible to negotiate with.
Eldar: Farseers will gladly let a human star system burn to the ground to save a few thousand Eldar. Not impossible to negotiate with, but they don't like upstart monkeigh. Also, there are Dark Eldar and most imperials don't know the difference. Some animosity was garnered in the great crusade where Fulgrim slashed and burned many Eldar worlds.
Necrons: Either want to kill all organic life or take over the galaxy again. Pretty impossible to make a deal with.
Tyranids: Impossible to barter with.
Tau: Reasonable enough, but they clearly do shady and not good things to humans under their empire.

Now, there were the Interex who were humans who had close allies amongst Aliens, and other humans during the dark age of technology who allied with Aliens. The imperium wiped them out. Humans could work with some Aliens - but for the most part, the entire setting is skewed to where such alliances are meant to be fleeting at best, and the weak are consumed by the strong. And the Imperium wants to be strong, so aliens are killed on principle outside of ones that are harmlessly useful to them (The Jokaero)

Jokaero. Who the heck are the Jokaero?

*goes googling*

Orangutan-like aliens who have a strange knack for building microtechnology.

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Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #1615 on: February 06, 2016, 03:33:04 PM »
Don't try judging the Imperium by the standards of today. People throughout history have been perfectly happy to kill their own species over differences in skin colour, politics, where they were born, and any other criteria that allows a division between Us and Them. The 40k setting takes that kind of xenophobia and dials it up to 11.

Offline BeorningTopic starter

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #1616 on: February 06, 2016, 04:07:33 PM »
I know... Still, it doesn't mean it's easy to actually RP such stuff.

Alright, another topic:

In some WH40K RP games (like Deathwatch or Black Crusade) there are limited options for character types. In BC, half of the basic archetypes are Chaos Space Marines. In Deathwatch, *all* of the characters are Space Marines. Isn't it a problem? I mean, how much diversity can there be among Space Marines? They are all big, strong guys with guns...

Offline TheGlyphstone

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #1617 on: February 06, 2016, 04:16:21 PM »
They're all big strong guys with guns, but Deathwatch - more than any other game - is about having people with different specialties working as a team and becoming better than the sum of their parts. Since everyone is a Space Marine by default, diversity is about what you know/do, not so much your inflated statline. The Assault Marine is going to have an entirely different skill set than the Tactical Marine. The Tactical Marine will provide different benefits to his allies than the Librarian. Even the Tactical Marine and the Devastator Marine will have very different approaches to problem solving despite both being ranged gun combatants, and possess unique skills and talents that make their more effective at their particular role. And a kill-team made of a Tactical, Assault, and Librarian will be far more effective than a team of three Assaults, or three Tacticals, or even three Librarians.

Black Crusade is even more diverse, because of allegiance and affinity. You can be a Marine or a Heretic, a Melee or Ranged or Psychic specialist, and follow one of four different Chaos Powers (five if you remain Unaligned), and combine all of these in any combination except Khorn+Psychic (admittedly Khorne+Ranged is almost as unlikely, but possible).
« Last Edit: February 06, 2016, 04:18:17 PM by TheGlyphstone »

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Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #1618 on: February 06, 2016, 04:20:10 PM »
I know... Still, it doesn't mean it's easy to actually RP such stuff.

Alright, another topic:

In some WH40K RP games (like Deathwatch or Black Crusade) there are limited options for character types. In BC, half of the basic archetypes are Chaos Space Marines. In Deathwatch, *all* of the characters are Space Marines. Isn't it a problem? I mean, how much diversity can there be among Space Marines? They are all big, strong guys with guns...

*nods* That's is why I prefer to stay with the Imperial Guard as my Good Guys. They are just normal humans trying to defend their lands and worlds against all manner of lovecraftian and soul crushing perils that only wish genocide upon them. They are the most sympathetic and relatable I feel.

the second part of that sounds like a case of "ALL Jedi or NO Jedi"

Spoiler: Click to Show/Hide

But I think you can get around it if you make the characters interesting, make them something worthy of either being in the support role (Because even the best of soldiers need a medic or someone providing covering fire) or be skilled enough in a niche to be of use to the big tanks :P

Offline TheGlyphstone

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #1619 on: February 06, 2016, 04:27:37 PM »
And even the Guard get things like marching battalions of conscripts through mine fields to clear them, because it's cheaper and faster than actually sweeping the mines safely.

All Jedi or No Jedi is pretty much how BC ends up being played, I think. It's theoretically supposed to be balanced in that the Chaos Marine archetypes are pretty much only useful in combat, with the Heretics getting access to all of the non-combat utility (including the ability to be seen in public without provoking a planet-wide panic). But being as how it's a game about Chaos worshippers, combat and violence end up solving most problems anyways.
« Last Edit: February 06, 2016, 04:37:36 PM by TheGlyphstone »

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Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #1620 on: February 06, 2016, 04:37:05 PM »
And even the Guard get things like marching battalions of conscripts through mine fields to clear them, because it's cheaper and faster than actually sweeping the mines safely.

All Jedi or No Jedi is pretty much how BC ends up being played, I think. It's theoretically supposed to be balanced in that the Chaos Marine archetypes are pretty much only useful in combat, with the Heretics getting access to all of the non-combat utility. But being as how it's a game about Chaos worshippers, combat and violence end up solving most problems anyways.

To be fair that's the way their war is. A soldier's life is cheap but its worth it if there is success in the end. Its basically the Red Army vs the Iron Legion, all those casualties are worth it if they can stop or at least slow down the enemy war machine.


Offline TheGlyphstone

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #1621 on: February 06, 2016, 04:39:23 PM »
To be fair that's the way their war is. A soldier's life is cheap but its worth it if there is success in the end. Its basically the Red Army vs the Iron Legion, all those casualties are worth it if they can stop or at least slow down the enemy war machine.

Indeed, which ties back to the original topic. It's awful, terrible, and amoral, but above all it's necessarily. The sheer danger level that the enemies of Humanity present means that anything less than total commitment and total ruthlessness will end in defeat. Xenos, mutant, heretic - they're all The Enemy, and it's a kill-or-be-killed world out there. Them or Us.

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Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #1622 on: February 06, 2016, 04:45:41 PM »
Indeed, which ties back to the original topic. It's awful, terrible, and amoral, but above all it's necessarily. The sheer danger level that the enemies of Humanity present means that anything less than total commitment and total ruthlessness will end in defeat. Xenos, mutant, heretic - they're all The Enemy, and it's a kill-or-be-killed world out there. Them or Us.

"Peace Through Power!"

Yes, its a sad world and I would never want to reside in it...but at the same time its so fascinating to explore and play in.

Offline Wajin

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #1623 on: February 06, 2016, 07:53:44 PM »
I know exactly where you're coming from Beorning, I had this problem the first few times I tried to do anything related to RP and the Ordo Xenos... Then I read my great-grandfather's diary from the second Sino-Japanese War... And then I realized that this world, just 70 years ago, was just as, if not worse than some of what goes on in 40k. I started tallying up pros and cons for the Ordo Xenos, dug through lore, and came to the conclusion that if I was surrounded by: Living warrior fungi, hyper advanced space communists, immortal metal Egyptians, a constantly evolving locust swarm hell bend on eradicating my species, almost immortal arrogant near humans with technology I couldn't even imagine and psychic powers beyond my wildest dreams, living space sludge with a love for improving tech. And knowing that they all want me dead, and to think that you've known for thousands of years, I think I'd be pretty xenophobic myself, because I think it's quite a rational response to what's going on with the imperium

Just for good measure, a list of the species I talked about:
Orks
Tau
Necrons
Tyranid
Eldar
Hrud

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Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #1624 on: February 06, 2016, 08:52:23 PM »
I know exactly where you're coming from Beorning, I had this problem the first few times I tried to do anything related to RP and the Ordo Xenos... Then I read my great-grandfather's diary from the second Sino-Japanese War... And then I realized that this world, just 70 years ago, was just as, if not worse than some of what goes on in 40k. I started tallying up pros and cons for the Ordo Xenos, dug through lore, and came to the conclusion that if I was surrounded by: Living warrior fungi, hyper advanced space communists, immortal metal Egyptians, a constantly evolving locust swarm hell bend on eradicating my species, almost immortal arrogant near humans with technology I couldn't even imagine and psychic powers beyond my wildest dreams, living space sludge with a love for improving tech. And knowing that they all want me dead, and to think that you've known for thousands of years, I think I'd be pretty xenophobic myself, because I think it's quite a rational response to what's going on with the imperium

Just for good measure, a list of the species I talked about:
Orks
Tau
Necrons
Tyranid
Eldar
Hrud

At the end of the day, all every Human in this terrible war has, is the fellow Human by their side, the weapon in their hands and the Emperor in their hearts.