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Author Topic: WH40000 - what's your opinion?  (Read 53173 times)

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Offline BeorningTopic starter

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #1500 on: August 04, 2015, 08:47:50 AM »
Okay, so... here's the Wych. It looks very rough / non-smooth, as usual...







Offline Dhi

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #1501 on: August 04, 2015, 02:07:45 PM »
When I first started painting I used artist's acrylics and craft paints. They ended up obscuring a lot of detail, although I didn't really notice it at the time... I just thought this was normal. More than any other advice I see given to new painters, it's thin your paint. Thin it with a little water and with some practice and multiple coats you'll get the color you want but preserve all your details.

Is this the one with the washes?

Offline BeorningTopic starter

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #1502 on: August 04, 2015, 02:28:48 PM »
Yup, that's the one with the washes. I think it looks better to the naked eye... For some reason, some of the details that *are* visible got lost in those photos.

Regarding thinning the paints - hm, how much water is "little"?

I painted a new Sister today... I tried doing the shading again. It... came out better this time around, I think. Overall, I'm quite pleased with how the mini worked out.


Offline eBadger

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #1503 on: August 04, 2015, 06:28:21 PM »
The sea-sponge is simply a coarse-grained sponge used to provide texture.  Again, with the size of a mini, the grain is a bit too coarse to make a proper marbling.

I've been told the foam padding included with many minis works well for this sort of thing. 

It just... didn't work out. I painted the Wych with a base colour, then applied the black wash. Some of the details became more pronounced, but the base colour became too dark. So, I tried to brighten it by re-painting most of the areas areas with the base colour again... but that destroyed the shading.

When using washes, you have to take into account the shading when choosing your base color: pick something a bit brighter than you want to end with.  You can also thin down the wash a bit with some water.

I also tried highlighting: Wyches have these bits of plate armour I thought I could paint that way. So, I painted the armour with a darker metallic colour and tried highlighting the edges with a lighter one... but I'm so imprecise that I actually covered all of the darker colour.  ::)

Brush control, and also using good brushes.  Note that the sharpness of the tip is more important than brush size when doing small details. 

I also tried shading the hair, but it didn't work out too well, either. Somehow, the red wash I used for hair didn't enter too many of the crevices in the hairstyle, so not much of shading was done. I tried to add some more shades but painting some of the crevices with a darker shade of red with a detail brush, but the results are so-so. Hm

I'm not sure exactly what went wrong there, but my initial impression is that the wash was put on too thin/dried too quickly.  It doesn't look like it pooled much at all. 

No advise on shading, people? I'm going to have two free weeks now, so I'd like to come back to painting...

Not sure how much advice you want; Dhi is a far more skilled painter than I am.  But I've found a few techniques that work well, and simply, to achieve decent results. 



Breaking down by colors:

All the flesh is a simple base coat/wash; the key here was finding a really pale skin tone that looked bad in the bottle but doesn't look too dark after a wash.  You can compare the skin of the characters with the decapitated head hanging from the right hip of the right guard; the only difference was swapping a thinned brown wash (agrax earthshade by GW) to give more pallor and less healthy ruddiness.   

Zerkova's (the central figure) browns are two separate colors, P3 bootstrap brown and p3 gun corps brown, alternating from boots/pants/corset/bustier.  I applied a brown/black wash (custom, but I believe very closely based on Secret Weapon's Armor Wash).  That outlined all the detail and brought the colors together.  I used multiple coats of wash in a few places to build up some shading, and returned to some highly thinned original colors for sparse highlights. 

The metal is p3 thamar black base with a dry brush of p3 pig iron and a highlight of brighter silver (basically just a few touches on the most raised portions; I typically just dry brush a line down to the top of an arm/helm/weapon/etc).  A little bit of p3 armor wash; I usually just apply that when my dry brushing is too heavy.  Dry brushed metals are definitely something I suggest as a first step: it's very simple but adds lots of visual complexity.  Inks or non-metallic metals look better, but anything is better than solid metallic base coat. 

The fur is a mix of washes and drybrushing; I used p3 frostbite (a light blue/grey) for a mid tone, applied p3 armor wash for the deeper shadows, then dry brushed p3 morrow white for the highlights; the last one is actually used very sparingly, but it's so bright it's all you really read for color. 

Over the last year I've been working on two brush blending, which does require some skill but makes for some striking effects that I really like.  The red is Vallejo Gory Red as a base, mixed with a bit of p3 thamar black for a darker shade, then some more for a deep shade; I finished with some bright red (GW - maybe scarlet suns?) for a couple small highlights (top of the cap, her belt).  I used armor wash to enhance a couple key details: the pocket on her left and the frogging down the front of her jacket. 

The blue is successive dry brushed highlights (p3 meridian blue, arcane blue, arcane/morrow white, an a final touch of morrow white).  I wanted to do some object source lighting but didn't feel confident enough - I need to get some junk models to practice on. 



Some of my practice models, using two brush blending to create effects.  2bb involves laying down a base coat, then using one brush to paint a line, then a second brush - nearly clean, but wet - to smooth the edge out into a fade.  This gave the two-tone cloaks, the three-tone swords (I mixed some vallejo metallic medium into the colors), and the light-glare look on the quiver. 



2bb used to shade a light orange with a dark red.



Shading whites and blacks are notoriously difficult; this is a practice model for white after taking a class.  His entire jacket is a mix of p3 gun corps brown and morrow white, with no pure versions of either.  Washes only on the leather and rope. 



The brown bottom of the coat combined 2bb (darkening from top to bottom) and washes (to pick out the details and edges). 

So, back to your stuff: use washes, but plan for them.  Your clothing didn't shade well because there's too little contrast between the wash and the paint color; that's fine if you're adding more highlights, not so good if you aren't. 

That goes for the rest of your colors, too: you need another color in your palette that will work with your red to make easily identifiable shapes, rather than a formless monotone (a brighter gold rather than a bronze?  switch to a different hair color?)

As mentioned, thin your paints just a bit.  They will flow better, requiring less pressure on the brush and therefore a sharper point and better control and detail. 

Regarding thinning the paints - hm, how much water is "little"?

I painted a new Sister today... I tried doing the shading again. It... came out better this time around, I think. Overall, I'm quite pleased with how the mini worked out.

The best description I've seen is to try for the consistency of milk.  It should hold some form, but should flow readily and easily over the surface.  Watercolor is bad.

And post the new mini!!!
« Last Edit: August 04, 2015, 06:47:15 PM by eBadger »

Offline Dhi

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #1504 on: August 04, 2015, 07:56:32 PM »
Ooh, the new Zerkova! I've been looking forward to that one, didn't realize she was out.

Offline eBadger

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #1505 on: August 04, 2015, 11:28:01 PM »
Pre-release; general release isn't for a month or two.  A lovely trio of models; had to grab her although I'm a ways off from having the force to field her. 

Offline BeorningTopic starter

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #1506 on: August 05, 2015, 08:29:52 AM »
Ooooh, these are some beautiful minis, eBadger! Thank you for sharing them and for your analysis.

When using washes, you have to take into account the shading when choosing your base color: pick something a bit brighter than you want to end with.

Good point, but I have one another problem with washes: don't they make everything look dirty and very matte? I just don't like the look of the colours treated with a wash, so I end up repainting most of the minis after washing...

BTW. Something I noticed yesterday: I painted my Sister's gun with Gory Red. Then, I applied black wash. Then, I re-painted most of the gun with Gory Red... but, this time around, Gory Red came out a bit darker? Is it possible that the wash under the second layer made it look different than the first one (which was painted over a layer of white primer)?

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I'm not sure exactly what went wrong there, but my initial impression is that the wash was put on too thin/dried too quickly.  It doesn't look like it pooled much at all. 

Actually, it was the other way around. The wash gathered in one spot and I had trouble spreading it over the hair. There *is* one spot on the hair where the shading is visible, but it didn't came out on the photos...

(BTW. Any advice on photographing minis? That Wych really looks better in real life. Some of the colours and details just didn't photograph...)

Quote
So, back to your stuff: use washes, but plan for them.  Your clothing didn't shade well because there's too little contrast between the wash and the paint color; that's fine if you're adding more highlights, not so good if you aren't. 

I admit I don't know what else I could do here? The colour was dark red. The wash was black. There should be a plenty of contrast there...

That goes for the rest of your colors, too: you need another color in your palette that will work with your red to make easily identifiable shapes, rather than a formless monotone (a brighter gold rather than a bronze?  switch to a different hair color?)

Quote
As mentioned, thin your paints just a bit.  They will flow better, requiring less pressure on the brush and therefore a sharper point and better control and detail. 

The best description I've seen is to try for the consistency of milk.  It should hold some form, but should flow readily and easily over the surface.  Watercolor is bad.

And post the new mini!!!

Okay, I'll try thinning the paints a bit more next time. BTW. Is it possible that I should also thin my primer? Maybe I'm putting on too much of it and that's why the minis look so rough and goopy?

I'll post the new mini later today, when I glue it together :) I admit that I'm quite satisfied with it... it looks good, at least in relation to my skills.

Offline eBadger

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #1507 on: August 05, 2015, 11:02:41 AM »
Good point, but I have one another problem with washes: don't they make everything look dirty and very matte? I just don't like the look of the colours treated with a wash, so I end up repainting most of the minis after washing...

It depends on which washes you use.  A brown wash is a popular method of giving a weathered, slightly dirty look to models; hence the overwhelming popularity, once upon a time, of the old GW Devlan Mud (now Agrax Earthshade).  It can certainly be used for that: splash a bit onto your pristine silver armor and you can give a subtle dinginess with almost no effort. 

I'm not a fan.  I prefer crisp, clean, bright models rather than battle damage/mud/rugged ones.  I don't default to brown washes, but instead match the wash to the paint color; this allows the detail to show up, but avoids a dirty look. 



I played around with this guy a bit; the coat is GW deathworld green, devlan mud wash, GW (nurgle green?) dry brush; it gives it (hopefully) the look of an old piece of clothing, clean but heavily worn and stained.  But I used the same wash on the pack and rope, but avoided any splotchy discoloration and the pack looks like a brand new item he's taking out for the first time.  Had I wanted the coat to look new as well, I would have used a black wash with a tiny bit of green paint (or a green wash with a bit of black) to deepen the colors rather than adding a new color.  A bit of green on the pack, on the other hand, would have given it a slightly moldy look.   

As far as matte v. gloss, that's entirely the brand of wash you use.  Compare Sorscha's brown coat edge to Eiryss' cloak:





Both of those finishes are from the wash.  It doesn't really matter, though; once you're done, you ought to be clear coating everything and that will create it's own finish. 

BTW. Something I noticed yesterday: I painted my Sister's gun with Gory Red. Then, I applied black wash. Then, I re-painted most of the gun with Gory Red... but, this time around, Gory Red came out a bit darker? Is it possible that the wash under the second layer made it look different than the first one (which was painted over a layer of white primer)?

Reds are usually pretty translucent; it takes several coats to completely obscure what's beneath, and it's why I always paint them over white.  So yes, painting over a darker color, or multiple coats, will make it darker. 

If you're using Vallejo gory red, that's the mid-tone on Sorscha and Zerkova.  A lovely color, but not bright. 

(BTW. Any advice on photographing minis? That Wych really looks better in real life. Some of the colours and details just didn't photograph...)

Ideally, outside on a slightly overcast day.  Otherwise, lots of light from multiple sources, preferably white/daylight bulbs rather than standard yellow ones.  Take your mini around the house and snap a few photos to find whats the best spot.  You can make a light box pretty easily.  White isn't a good background (most auto modes will try to dim everything to adjust for the brightness).  Don't try to get super close or zoom in all the way; find a good focus and crop later if needed. 

I admit I don't know what else I could do here? The colour was dark red. The wash was black. There should be a plenty of contrast there...

Dark red and dark wash means no contrast.  Start with a red that's brighter than you want.  Also, break up the red with something else bright. 





Both of those reds are painted the same way, with the same color and wash.  The warjack looks bright because smaller sections of color are offset by the white.  The sleigh looks dark and dulle, and the detail of the ridges and rivets is lost, because I hadn't yet applied anything to break it up (and never really did much, ran into a deadline and free commissions get you what you pay for.... ;) )

Okay, I'll try thinning the paints a bit more next time. BTW. Is it possible that I should also thin my primer? Maybe I'm putting on too much of it and that's why the minis look so rough and goopy?

Don't thin primer.  But what are you using?  Not all are created equal; both GW and P3 make nice ones that will coat well without being thick.  Also don't apply too much: give the model a nice frosting, don't paint it. A great write up here

I'll post the new mini later today, when I glue it together :) I admit that I'm quite satisfied with it... it looks good, at least in relation to my skills.

Never feel bad for liking your own models, yours is the only opinion that counts!  And Improvement takes time; keep in mind that I started painting models over 20 years ago. 
« Last Edit: August 05, 2015, 11:06:01 AM by eBadger »

Offline BeorningTopic starter

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #1508 on: August 05, 2015, 01:15:23 PM »
It depends on which washes you use.  A brown wash is a popular method of giving a weathered, slightly dirty look to models; hence the overwhelming popularity, once upon a time, of the old GW Devlan Mud (now Agrax Earthshade).  It can certainly be used for that: splash a bit onto your pristine silver armor and you can give a subtle dinginess with almost no effort. 

I'm not a fan.  I prefer crisp, clean, bright models rather than battle damage/mud/rugged ones.  I don't default to brown washes, but instead match the wash to the paint color; this allows the detail to show up, but avoids a dirty look. 

I like clean-looking models, too! So, if I understand you correctly - I should use red wash to shade reds, blue wash to shade blues etc.? What's the use of black wash, then?

Quote
Both of those finishes are from the wash.  It doesn't really matter, though; once you're done, you ought to be clear coating everything and that will create it's own finish. 

Argh! What's clear-coating?

Quote
Don't thin primer.  But what are you using?  Not all are created equal; both GW and P3 make nice ones that will coat well without being thick.  Also don't apply too much: give the model a nice frosting, don't paint it. A great write up here

Please define "frosting" :)

Anyway... here's the yesterday's Sister:







As I mentioned, the method was that I painted almost everything, then applied a lot of wash, then repainted most of the figure to make it look bright. This time, I didn't destroy too much of the shading, so I think the mini looks better than the last one. Although it still does look a little dirty... Sometimes I wonder if all that shading is actually worth it.

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Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #1509 on: August 05, 2015, 01:28:40 PM »
Clear-coat is a spray-on product that puts a thin layer of transparent sealant on the mini to keep paint from wearing off over time.  It also tends to impart a slight gloss, although I think there's a version for matte finishes.

Offline eBadger

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #1510 on: August 05, 2015, 05:42:42 PM »
I like clean-looking models, too! So, if I understand you correctly - I should use red wash to shade reds, blue wash to shade blues etc.? What's the use of black wash, then?

Not always the same, no; basically, just test a bit and see what works (if you don't have old minis lying around, buy a package of green army men or something, prime the guys up and test out ideas).  I wash some reds and yellows with brown, and use black a ton, only mixing in color if I feel the difference in shading is too stark (or I'll just thin it down so it doesn't coat so heavily).  Colored inks/washes aren't necessarily dark enough (almost never are, in my experience) so you'll want black just for mixing.  It's also useful for metallics (I wash silvers with black, golds with brown) - the P3 black wash is named Armor Wash.  Also, when you get into the advanced stuff you'll discover that black is usually mostly not black (image not mine). 



The purple was done with a 50/50 water/armor wash mix, which I just painted into the lows to avoid dulling the whole cape.  Colored inks are usually intended more for adding or intensifying color (all the P3 reds are very orange-y, because they are designed to be finished with an application of red ink). 

Argh! What's clear-coating?

Clear coating just refers to finishing a model with a protective layer of clear paint.  It seals the acrylics and prevents chipping, wearing off, and peeling, and also eliminates the gloss finish some paints have.  I use 2-3 coats of Krylon Clear Flat:



...but the pros seem to all love Testors Dullcote (which is super matte, more expensive and harder to find).  If you have something you DO want glossy (a gem or piece of glass, for instance) it can be touched up with clear nail polish. 

Do be aware that clear coat doesn't do well in high humidity.  Always test on something before spraying your models, to avoid discoloration. 

Please define "frosting" :)

Read that linked article on priming ;)

"Have you ever assembled a model on a black gaming base and then applied so much primer to it that it's completely white and there is no hint of a black gaming base on the model anymore, just a white disk? Yeah, you've WAY over primed your model.

...What is considered priming properly, then? A very light dusting of primer. Even for tabletop models I don't worry about covering every little nook and cranny on a model.

...I apply until I can see primer on most of the model, not worrying if I see some metal through the primer in those deepest recesses."

As I mentioned, the method was that I painted almost everything, then applied a lot of wash, then repainted most of the figure to make it look bright. This time, I didn't destroy too much of the shading, so I think the mini looks better than the last one. Although it still does look a little dirty... Sometimes I wonder if all that shading is actually worth it.

Your Sister is a huge leap forward, nicely done!!!  You have some defined lines on the gun, and her armor detail is enhanced by the black spaces. 

For the next one try applying less wash (or better, water it down a bit) so it doesn't get so dark, then thin down your paint a little and apply it to about half of the red space.  That will preserve some mid tones and make it look faded rather than lined. 
« Last Edit: August 05, 2015, 05:47:36 PM by eBadger »

Offline BeorningTopic starter

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #1511 on: August 05, 2015, 06:57:39 PM »
Not always the same, no; basically, just test a bit and see what works (if you don't have old minis lying around, buy a package of green army men or something, prime the guys up and test out ideas).  I wash some reds and yellows with brown, and use black a ton, only mixing in color if I feel the difference in shading is too stark (or I'll just thin it down so it doesn't coat so heavily).  Colored inks/washes aren't necessarily dark enough (almost never are, in my experience) so you'll want black just for mixing.  It's also useful for metallics (I wash silvers with black, golds with brown) - the P3 black wash is named Armor Wash.

Hm. So, if I was to shade some red hair (like that of my Wych's), what should I use? Red wash, black wash, a mix of the two? What about the problem with black wash causing the hair to look dirty?

Quote
Read that linked article on priming ;)

"Have you ever assembled a model on a black gaming base and then applied so much primer to it that it's completely white and there is no hint of a black gaming base on the model anymore, just a white disk? Yeah, you've WAY over primed your model.

...What is considered priming properly, then? A very light dusting of primer. Even for tabletop models I don't worry about covering every little nook and cranny on a model.

...I apply until I can see primer on most of the model, not worrying if I see some metal through the primer in those deepest recesses."

I will :) I apply the primer with a brush and I really keep wondering how much of the stuff I should use...

Quote
Your Sister is a huge leap forward, nicely done!!!  You have some defined lines on the gun, and her armor detail is enhanced by the black spaces. 

Isn't there too much of the black, though? For me, she looks like she had tons of mud stuck in all these recesses...

Quote
For the next one try applying less wash (or better, water it down a bit) so it doesn't get so dark, then thin down your paint a little and apply it to about half of the red space.  That will preserve some mid tones and make it look faded rather than lined.

I'll try to do so :)

I wonder what to do with the Wyches, though? They don't have as many obvious recesses as the Sisters - most of their clothes are smooth bodysuits. How do you shade that?

BTW. As you can see, the Sister's is still looking rough, not smooth. Do you think it's because of non-thinned paint?

Offline Thorne

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #1512 on: August 05, 2015, 08:52:19 PM »
Hard to say, really - I do like both your new minis, I think they're coming along well. You're really improving - and no, I'm not just saying that. ;p
I don't really think about what I'm doing very much - I poke it until it looks right. Which is not the easiest technique to explain.

But, eh. Progress pics! Because I can do that. My workspace is messy. Try to ignore that. <.<

So, remember that gnoll I was modifying? I couldn't get the wings to work the way I wanted, so I scrapped that bit, but I figure I'll finish her off for the halibut.
I'm at the 'slap paint on at random' stage here, and since I was going to paint a white gnoll (... yah, there was a reason for that) and she's wearing metal armor, I just based everything Noir Black (Reaper). Reaper's paints are flat-finish, which I like just fine for this stage.
I'll work up the fur with grey and white (because white fur isn't really white, usually - it's transparent over black skin. That's how you get white horses with black noses), to give it depth, and the armor with metallic. The only thing you're not seeing is her shield, which I have primed, but not painted.


And, for something completely different .. uh. Mostly. I'm painting a minotaur for a friend. He wants a spotted brown-and-white minotaur (and here's me, praying I won't be talking to 'Bessie' in character, because, really dude).
Again, Reaper - Mahogany Brown for the body. Peacock Green for the kilt (both of which I'm going to dry-brush lighter), and more Noir Black for the metal and base.


For both of these, I do tend to start at the bottom and work my way up - skin first. Because I tend to do metallic and whites more or less the same, I did Ms. Gnoll all in black, pretty much.
The minotaur got his skin first, then the kilt. I'll probably start his horns in a lighter brown - Tanned Leather, maybe.

Annd.. the dragon there in the background, that's something I'm working on for the GM. I have to glue one of her horns back on. >.>

Offline eBadger

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #1513 on: August 06, 2015, 12:48:21 AM »
Hm. So, if I was to shade some red hair (like that of my Wych's), what should I use? Red wash, black wash, a mix of the two? What about the problem with black wash causing the hair to look dirty?

Black tends to look more like shadows, less like dirt.  However, caucasian hair tends to include brown, including red hair.  One tool for coming up with color combos is to find a picture and sample the different sections. 



As you see, even for this - which is definitely pushing the border of believably real - there's mostly browns, with only a mid tone that's really red. 



These are just GC bloody red, GW agrax earthshade, and a touch up of P3 red ink mostly because my clear coat frosted a bit.  They were a quick and dirty duo, with hair that I wanted a fake red - everything else on them is earth tone, and they needed to tie into a primarily red force (see Sorscha and Zerkova above).  If I wanted more realistic, I would have mixed a touch of light brown into the red, used a thinner Agrax wash (since there would have already been some brown) and highlighted with a tan/yellow.

I haven't painted much red hair, though.  Dhi, any suggestions you could provide?

I will :) I apply the primer with a brush and I really keep wondering how much of the stuff I should use...

BTW. As you can see, the Sister's is still looking rough, not smooth. Do you think it's because of non-thinned paint?

I've never used brush on primer.  Obviously some do, and it's certainly a thing, but I've been warned off of it for exactly that reason: your brush is probably going to put it on too thick. 



I'm not familiar with GW models these days (my sisters of battle are from the mid 90s...) but the lumpy roundness instead of crisp details indicates to me that the paint is way too thick.  If you're able, grab a spray primer and try it out.  Some WIP pictures (before primer, after, after paint) would also help us see what's going on.  Obscuring detail is going to make washes less effective, though, since there won't be all those nice crisp crevices to pool in. 

Isn't there too much of the black, though? For me, she looks like she had tons of mud stuck in all these recesses...

Hmm...the black doesn't read as mud to me at all.  Again, keep in mind what real armor will look like:



Notice how dark shadow outlines and defines almost every plate, and tarnish and oil bring out all the filigree.  Our mind reads it as solid silver, but without the shades it would look flat and formless. 

I wonder what to do with the Wyches, though? They don't have as many obvious recesses as the Sisters - most of their clothes are smooth bodysuits. How do you shade that?

That's where two brush blending comes into play, but not something I'd start you on now.  I'm frankly not really impressed with the sculpts; they look boring, with large plain surfaces and few variations in texture/material.  As I've mentioned, I would switch the bronze metal for a bright gold or silver and change either the hair or clothing color to something that isn't red.  Left to my druthers, I would add an accent color and make the costume quartered/particolor like this (model not mine):



Thorne, the models are looking nice; I like the gnoll model!  And looking forward to seeing how you pull off Bessie's spots. 

I always have a pile of WIP stuff, but right now I'm trying to finish up some dragons to make my Legion force playable.  I think I've settled on a color scheme, but I need to finish prepping the models: some need to be magnetized, while most of the others need their heads snipped off and swapped out for a more classic draconic look rather than alien dragons. 
« Last Edit: August 06, 2015, 12:53:29 AM by eBadger »

Offline Dhi

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #1514 on: August 06, 2015, 12:58:24 AM »
Hey Beorning, would you try putting some of your metallic paint on a palette, thinning it with an equal amount of water, and stirring it up with a toothpick or brush handle or something where you can identify clumps? If it does clump with that much water, then probably your metallics are just hardening from air exposure and need to be replaced. The rest of your colors don't seem to have this coarseness that's bothering you, so I do not think it's a primer issue.

I like the messy workspaces, the painting notes and the works in progress, Thorne. Don't disparage experimenting with your paint, that's how we get better. Anne Foerster practices a technique called wet blending which probably qualifies as slapping paint on at random, but there is absolutely a personality to it that can't be replicated by something like layering. Anne is the painter I look up to the most, and one bit of advice she gives is to find some small way to push yourself each time you paint. You seem to think about these things the way I do and the way Anne does, and if you ask me that is not a bad thing at all.

Offline BeorningTopic starter

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #1515 on: August 06, 2015, 04:06:30 AM »
Once again, thanks for all the advice, guys! And Thorne, thanks for the kind words - I do hope that I am improving :)

Regarding the primer issue - thankfully, I do happen to have a picture of the Wych taken after the primer was applied. She looked like this:



So, what do you think?

When it comes to thinning the paints, the problem is that I am a... bit of a miser when it comes to paints. I can't afford to buy too many of them, so I don't really put significant amount of paint on the palette. Usually, it's just a drop or two, so that I don't end up wasting too much of the stuff. I'm not sure how to thin such small amounts of paints?

When it comes to the colours on the Wyches - I would prefer to stick to deep red body suits, as this colour fits the theme / backstory I worked out for that particular Cult :)) Also, blueish / blackish colours on the DE are kind of default and I don't want mine to be too unoriginal... What I plan on doing is giving the Wyches different hair colours (there would be blacks, whites, reds... maybe even blondes - are there any examples of blonde DE in the canon?), as well as armour colours (silvers, bronzes, tins...). I certainly don't want all of the Wyches look the same.

Offline Dhi

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #1516 on: August 06, 2015, 06:21:21 AM »
When looking at your Wych paint job and what the issue might have been, I was looking at fine details like the hair furrows at the scalp. In some of the photos those details had been smoothed over. Looking at the same areas on your primer picture, those details are not covered up. I think this confirms that the thickness of your paint is obscuring some detail. Learning to thin down paints is something every beginning painter goes through, that's why it's so often touted as advice. My early paint jobs were way too thick as well, and I didn't realize how much detail I was obscuring until I started taking pictures.

In order to thin down paint some artists will get some water on their brush and mix it in. I don't like to take risks like that with my Kolinsky brushes. What I'll do is put down a drop or two of paint, and dip the tip of my little finger in the water. If it's a thick paint like Vallejo, I put the water drop directly on the paint. If it's something already thin, like Reaper Master Series, then I'll put the water drop down on the palette and scoop a bit over. This is ultimately something you have to get a feel for.

Regarding red hair, I've never done a real cherry red color for hair, but I'm interested to try it now. I did a lot of ginger red hair for my fire giants, and that was a fiery orange base, drab red and brown ink in the shadows, and highlights coming up to golden yellow. In hindsight, I should have gone deeper with the shadows. Hair, especially the supermodel hair, is rich in color. Mixing in some other hues like brown will help to bring it to life. You want the brown to look like it's a shade of your red, and one way to do that is to mix in a bit of your base color to your shadow and highlight colors.

Reaper makes a color triad called the auburn hair triad.

I've never used it for actual hair, but it's a super close match to eBadger's color swatch and some of my favorite colors for cherry wood and warm leathers. You could make them more red by mixing a bit of your Vallejo red in, or going back over the finished product with a glaze of red ink.

A glaze is like a filter put on over a color once it's been shaded and highlighted. About 12 parts water to 1 part paint should do it. Liquitex also makes a glaze medium I'd recommend, and it's either this or straight matte medium which goes into P3's Mixing Medium product. When you apply a glaze you shouldn't be able to see it at first, but after a few coats everything will start to take that uniform hue, highlight, base, and shadow alike. Ink is especially great for glazes because the pigment is so tiny.

Offline Thorne

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #1517 on: August 06, 2015, 04:08:48 PM »
Red hair? Brr.. I've tried it with browns and orange, and it didn't work so well - red hair is a real pain in the butt to paint. :/
I have a new set to try it with - that dark mahogany, and a light rust red for highlights. We'll see how that goes.

I am a little more careful with the brush-on primer than I am with the spray, even though the one I have (one of Reaper's) is pretty thin. I usually prefer a spray primer, honestly. ^^;

Progress! Ms. Gnoll, because she'd been the easier to paint right now..

First coat of grey - using a grey with a blue undertone - think it's Reaper's Concrete Grey.


And, white - I used P3's Morrow White for this - it's a good lot thicker, which means I can use it for a wash, so there won't be /quite/ so much exposed black. If I put a drop or so of grey in, it won't be /quite/ so stark.


Offline BeorningTopic starter

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #1518 on: August 06, 2015, 04:23:58 PM »
Thorne, only now I noticed: that Gnoll has breasts?

Dhi, thanks for the advice on thinning the paints :)

Guys, your kind word and advice gave me a boost, so I primed two more minis today (another Wych and a Sister with heavy flamer - which is one really big, complicated contraption that might be fun to paint). I'm eager to try out all of the advice you've given me :)

Offline arkhos

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #1519 on: August 06, 2015, 04:31:29 PM »
Guys, your kind word and advice gave me a boost, so I primed two more minis today (another Wych and a Sister with heavy flamer - which is one really big, complicated contraption that might be fun to paint). I'm eager to try out all of the advice you've given me :)

Tons of good advice here, so nothing really to add except this: you won't get better without practicing the things you read about. So prime those minis and get those brushes working! :)

-ark

Offline eBadger

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #1520 on: August 10, 2015, 01:40:57 PM »
Reaper makes a color triad called the auburn hair triad.

That looks fabulous, will have to pick them up! 

And we need more pics of models (should we be starting a new thread for this?) - I just assembled stuff this weekend and worked on a head swap for a legion dragon; I'll post pics later but halfway through atm, need to sculpt some lips and snout. 

Offline Dhi

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #1521 on: August 11, 2015, 11:28:52 AM »
This is the most recent thing I finished, a Gorax.

I started making heavy use of Liquitex glaze medium here for some smooth blends on the muscles. Beefy dude muscles are something I've always struggled with, it takes such a subtle transition from deep shadow to bright highlight for the piece not to look cell shaded to me. And a cell shaded look used to be something I was okay with, but I've been trying to work toward those photogenic display pieces that're more elaborate than they first appear, rather than less.

There's a podcast I listen to while painting called Fantasy Fiction, and about the same time they were doing stories themed around yeti. Mine's supposed to be a wendigo, but they look alike, don't they? I thought that was cool.


My partner liked this gorgon I painted from the Bones II line. I was trying out some rust effects, a fiery glow, and lapis lazuli tiles building on what I learned trying to paint marble. I had wanted to give him a glowing magmatic butthole to match his eyes and mouth, but chickened out. I always regret getting too explicit.


D.W.'s base was I think the first thing I crafted out of Sculpey. I wanted him to be perched on a hawk's head gargoyle Darkwing style, but my sculpting skills are unfortunately crude.


This week I received some zen garden basing materials from Wyrd Miniatures and have been drilling and pinning to hold all the pewter together. I also picked up a new pot of gesso, which I use to prime metals and resins, so no more worrying about clumpyness from the old pot. That was one of the things keeping me from assembling my Kingdom Death minis. Now I have nothing to blame but myself if I mess them up, and that's twice as intimidating.

I also opened up a new package of green stuff epoxy to fill some gaps. This green stuff was manufactured by Citadel, and I noticed that the package is not resealable. I can put them in another resealable container, and I'm going to have to, because epoxy does not stay malleable with air circulation. My Citadel paints all dried out very quickly, inside of a few months, due to the design of those containers. I haven't tried the newer flip-top pots. Does anyone else use them?

Offline Thorne

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #1522 on: August 12, 2015, 12:21:11 AM »
Hee! Darkwing Duck.. ^^
Dhi, your Wendigo/Yeti looks like a werewolf to me, but I really like the paintjob, all the same. Where'd you find him?

So, my present projects, Bessie and Ms. Whitegnoll:



As you can see, I had some fun with the spotz. ^^;
Ms. Whitegnoll has now her armor - I'm all pleased with myself, I got a good mix for Golarion Adamantine (which is described as being a dull purplish colour.. whaat) (a good squidge of Reaper Adamantine Black, a couple of drops of Imperial Purple (also Reaper) and a blob of P3 Quicksilver), and now all I need is to go after it with the inks and start doing a bit of shading for depth. And battle-damage.

I am generally displeased with Citadel paints - their pots are stupid, and the last one I managed to pick up was almost dead right out of the gate. Congealed and /gluey/. Rassenfrassen cheap *language*.... I added a little water and mixed the hell out of it, and I /think/ it will salvage. But for how long.. *grumble* And it was the only shade of dull bronze I could find. I'm displeased.

Offline Dhi

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #1523 on: August 12, 2015, 01:03:03 AM »
Gorax is a warbeast used by my Hordes faction, Circle Orboros. He's pretty indispensable for enhancing the already high melee power of our werewolves, so just about every Circle player has one.

Bessie's spots are perfect! How do you feel about Whitegnoll's coat? When you mentioned your color choices I was afraid you might end up with something that hits the eye as grey rather than white, but it looks white from what I can see.

Offline Thorne

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #1524 on: August 12, 2015, 01:19:06 AM »
I'm actually pretty pleased with Ms. Whitegnoll's coat - I need to do a little touching up - the shadows are a little /too/ deep-black, and I need to fix that, but overall, I am really happy with the way she's coming out.

Hm. I was looking at some of the Hordes stuff for modifying for D&D (.. pretty sure I'm not the only one who's thought about that, and I'm equally certain it goes both ways!). I really like his general 'look' - if I need more werewolves for something, or a Werewolf lord, maybe I'll see if my FLGS has one. Or hit the much-more-local GS shop... that might be fun in the 'shut up, yes, I'm a woman, yes, I am looking for a mini, no, I don't play THIS game, yes I paint go away' kind of sense... >.>

I was looking at a wholly different mini in that general line .. female, with batwings. Might have made a fantastic succubus, if I knew which one it was. I was going to ask, but by the time I had a free moment, they'd finished and packed up and gone. :/