You are either not logged in or not registered with our community. Click here to register.
 
December 06, 2016, 10:18:40 AM

Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?

Login with username, password and session length

Click here if you are having problems.
Default Wide Screen Beige Lilac Rainbow Black & Blue October Send us your theme!

Hark!  The Herald!
Holiday Issue 2016

Wiki Blogs Dicebot

Author Topic: WH40000 - what's your opinion?  (Read 53202 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Online Oniya

  • StoreHouse of Useless Trivia
  • Oracle
  • Carnite
  • *
  • Join Date: Sep 2008
  • Location: Just bouncing through. Hi! City of Roses, Pennsylvania
  • Gender: Female
  • One bad Motokifuka. Also cute and FLUFFY!
  • My Role Play Preferences
  • View My Rolls
  • Referrals: 3
Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #150 on: August 21, 2014, 06:21:56 PM »
Have you considered starting off by just going to a tournament to watch?  I have a difficult time meeting new people, but sometimes if you sit and observe them for a while, it becomes easier to interact with them.

Offline consortium11

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #151 on: August 21, 2014, 06:44:12 PM »
Without wanting to stereotype too much, you'd be far from the only person as "shy" to take up war-gaming or play in Games Workshop. I'd imagine their staff are pretty used to dealing with people who aren't exactly social butterflies.

To add to Oniya's suggestion, perhaps just going into a store, looking at the figures (and the prices so you know what stuff costs) and maybe chatting to one of the staff. They'll be able to answer your questions (although they'll have to follow the GW line so don't expect advice about unofficial figures or paints) and *touch wood* start a conversation. They can also play a couple of "introduction" games with you so you get a feeling for a flow of the game and rules which is hard to convey in text.

Offline BeorningTopic starter

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #152 on: August 21, 2014, 07:00:15 PM »
Gah! I might be too shy for that...

Seriously, I had a job interview today... and when I entered the office, I got very afraid. Because it turned out that there were a lot of people of my age at the office. Lots of *cool-looking* people. And I got this thought: "If I get employed, I'll have to talk to all of them! Help!"

And I get this kind of reaction whenever I pass a gaming shop. I see cool people playing and I feel too awkward to approach... even if this people are so young that I shouldn't really be afraid of them...

Offline HairyHeretic

  • Lei varai barbu - The true bearded one
  • Knight
  • Addict
  • *
  • Join Date: Dec 2006
  • Location: Ireland
  • Gender: Male
  • And the Scorpion said "Little frog .. I can swim."
  • My Role Play Preferences
  • View My Rolls
  • Referrals: 1
Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #153 on: August 24, 2014, 07:55:22 AM »
Well, there's always the option of just going in and watching how the game is played.

Offline BeorningTopic starter

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #154 on: August 24, 2014, 11:27:48 AM »
True. There is an official GW shop at my city, I might need to go there...

Okay! Here's something different:

I found a GM interested in running Black Crusade for me. The question is: what kind of heretic would I like to play? Predictibly, I'm attracted to the idea of a fallen Sororitas. The question is: what would make a Sororitas worship Chaos? Any suggestions?

Offline Hemingway

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #155 on: August 24, 2014, 11:35:32 AM »
I was wondering: what's your opinion on the WH40000 setting? Interesting? Not interesting? Does it lend itself to serious stories, or is it too silly for that?

I know I'm late to the party on this, but I want to give my opinion. Which is that 40K puts so much emphasis on how grim and dismal the future is, it almost seems like a parody of itself - and I can't tell if it's intentional or not.

That said, I recently got back into it. I'm working on putting together 1000 pts of Space Wolves at the moment. I used to play Tau, so having an army that doesn't fall apart in melee will be a nice change of pace. I'm working on a budget ( both money and time-wise ) at the moment, so it's going to be pretty basic. If I had the time, money and energy, though, I'd stick my entire army in drop pods.

And I get this kind of reaction whenever I pass a gaming shop. I see cool people playing and I feel too awkward to approach... even if this people are so young that I shouldn't really be afraid of them...

I have never in my life been to a gaming store filled with anything resembling 'cool' people. I have had everyone in the store seize up because there was a girl present and playing, though.

Also, GW staff - in my experience, at least - are incredibly helpful ( because they really, really want to sell you things ). It might not be the same everywhere, but this has been my experience ( in two different countries! ): If you need help getting started, they'll do that. If you want to see how they game plays, they'll probably show you. The store I used to go to would let you use their paint free of charge, too. GW really is like a drug dealer; they really want you to come back and buy more of their products.

The question is: what would make a Sororitas worship Chaos? Any suggestions?

Chaos, thankfully, isn't hard to come by. It's pretty much everywhere. Exposure to Chaos isn't healthy ( Unless you're a Space Wolf ).

Because the Sisters of Battle are part of the witch hunters ( and tend to get a bit zealous ), there's probably less chance of them falling to Chaos than ordinary marines - and even less of it being recorded. As far as I know, only the Grey Knights are supposed to be entirely incorruptible. And even that's not necessarily true.

Online Oniya

  • StoreHouse of Useless Trivia
  • Oracle
  • Carnite
  • *
  • Join Date: Sep 2008
  • Location: Just bouncing through. Hi! City of Roses, Pennsylvania
  • Gender: Female
  • One bad Motokifuka. Also cute and FLUFFY!
  • My Role Play Preferences
  • View My Rolls
  • Referrals: 3
Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #156 on: August 24, 2014, 11:38:37 AM »
There was that bit pointed out earlier about going so far into the anti-Chaos mindset that your methods become Chaos-like.  Justifying everything as 'for the good of ______'.

Offline Inkidu

  • E's Resident Girlomancer, Dedicated Philogynist, The Compartive of a Superlative, SLG's Sammich Life-Giver
  • Lord
  • Addict
  • *
  • Join Date: Jul 2008
  • Location: In a staring contest with the Void.
  • Gender: Male
  • My Role Play Preferences
  • View My Rolls
  • Referrals: 0
Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #157 on: August 24, 2014, 12:07:37 PM »
The only order of the imperium to never fall to chaos are the Gray Knights, but uh yeah... that comes with a host of other issues. :|

Chaos always wins: Every plan laid, every honorable battle fought, the natural entropy of the universe, hope for tomorrow, and every act of love further the goals of one or more chaos gods.

There's a god of hope in the WH40K and the god of hope is freaking evil.  :)
« Last Edit: August 24, 2014, 12:09:47 PM by Inkidu »

Offline HairyHeretic

  • Lei varai barbu - The true bearded one
  • Knight
  • Addict
  • *
  • Join Date: Dec 2006
  • Location: Ireland
  • Gender: Male
  • And the Scorpion said "Little frog .. I can swim."
  • My Role Play Preferences
  • View My Rolls
  • Referrals: 1
Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #158 on: August 24, 2014, 12:41:22 PM »
I found a GM interested in running Black Crusade for me. The question is: what kind of heretic would I like to play? Predictibly, I'm attracted to the idea of a fallen Sororitas. The question is: what would make a Sororitas worship Chaos? Any suggestions?

Matt Ward?

He wrote some fluff for the previous GKdex that had the oh so uncorruptable Grey Knight slaughter a batch of Sisters to bathe in their blood for extra uncorruptableness before going to battle a deamon that was rampaging around the city the Sisters were in.

On a slightly more useful note, have a read of this

http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Miriael_Sabathiel

Your character could be one of the Mission who tried to capture her and ended up swearing to her service instead.

Alternately, you could have someone who was so focused on finding and destroying any heretical behaviour / psychers that they went off the deep end and became sworn to Khorne.

To side with Nurgle, you could have her become infected with a plague while fighting against Nurgle forces, and in her feverish delerium she calls out for salvation .. and Grandfather Nurgle answers.


Offline BeorningTopic starter

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #159 on: August 24, 2014, 12:51:25 PM »
Matt Ward?

He wrote some fluff for the previous GKdex that had the oh so uncorruptable Grey Knight slaughter a batch of Sisters to bathe in their blood for extra uncorruptableness before going to battle a deamon that was rampaging around the city the Sisters were in.

I've heard this mentioned, but I don't this situation. If the Grey Knights are so uncorruptable, then why would they do something like this? Don't they realize it's an evil (and, probably, Chaotic) thing to do?

Quote
On a slightly more useful note, have a read of this

http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Miriael_Sabathiel

Your character could be one of the Mission who tried to capture her and ended up swearing to her service instead.

Hm. The bio doesn't explain how she ended up like that...

Quote
Alternately, you could have someone who was so focused on finding and destroying any heretical behaviour / psychers that they went off the deep end and became sworn to Khorne.

Nice idea, but... if someone is so focused on fighting heresy, then how does she end up swearing to Chaos? Doesn't she realize she's becoming a heretic herself?

Quote
To side with Nurgle, you could have her become infected with a plague while fighting against Nurgle forces, and in her feverish delerium she calls out for salvation .. and Grandfather Nurgle answers.

I once had an idea that a Sister might get a case of panic in the middle of the battle, so she would turn to Nurgle for protection. Nurgle is, in a way, a god of survival, right? The question is, *could* a Sister be so afraid..?

Online Oniya

  • StoreHouse of Useless Trivia
  • Oracle
  • Carnite
  • *
  • Join Date: Sep 2008
  • Location: Just bouncing through. Hi! City of Roses, Pennsylvania
  • Gender: Female
  • One bad Motokifuka. Also cute and FLUFFY!
  • My Role Play Preferences
  • View My Rolls
  • Referrals: 3
Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #160 on: August 24, 2014, 01:09:05 PM »
Nice idea, but... if someone is so focused on fighting heresy, then how does she end up swearing to Chaos? Doesn't she realize she's becoming a heretic herself?

It's not so much that she 'swears to Chaos'.  It's more that she gets so focused on 'the ends justify the means' that she ends up performing more and more Chaos-like actions.

Think of a computer that has been told that it cannot allow humans to come to harm.  Sounds pretty orderly, right?  Until you start overthinking 'harm'.  People eat bad things and damage themselves.  Put all humans on regulated feeding system.   People move about and injure themselves.  Don't allow people to move.  Humans get sick and infect other humans.  That's harming them.  People can't be allowed to get sick.  Remove all harmful microorganisms and get rid of infected people.

And so on and so forth.  All perfectly 'orderly and logical', but taken to an extreme, it becomes horrifying.

Offline BeorningTopic starter

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #161 on: August 24, 2014, 01:40:09 PM »
Good point. But I think that the characters in Black Crusade must consciously swear allegiance to Chaos in some way... Otherwise, they won't be getting any gifts from the Chaos gods etc. Hmmmm...

Offline Wajin

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #162 on: August 24, 2014, 02:16:35 PM »
Good point. But I think that the characters in Black Crusade must consciously swear allegiance to Chaos in some way... Otherwise, they won't be getting any gifts from the Chaos gods etc. Hmmmm...

A way you could have it go down is for her to have had some interactions with the Word Bearers. It was Lorgar, their primarch who wrote most of the teachings of the Ecclesiarchy. The Emperor never desired that anyone worship him, maybe somehow being told something along those lines shook her faith enough to allow her to fall
 

Offline TheGlyphstone

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #163 on: August 24, 2014, 03:33:23 PM »
I've heard this mentioned, but I don't this situation. If the Grey Knights are so uncorruptable, then why would they do something like this? Don't they realize it's an evil (and, probably, Chaotic) thing to do?
The answer is "Matt Ward sucks at writing fluff." There is no in-universe explanation for it.

Offline Hemingway

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #164 on: August 24, 2014, 03:46:05 PM »
WaaRRRRDDDD!

I read Ward no longer works for GW, so ... maybe there's hope.

Offline BeorningTopic starter

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #165 on: August 24, 2014, 03:52:27 PM »
This Ward person... he's GW equivalent of Chuck Austen, or something?  ;)

Offline HairyHeretic

  • Lei varai barbu - The true bearded one
  • Knight
  • Addict
  • *
  • Join Date: Dec 2006
  • Location: Ireland
  • Gender: Male
  • And the Scorpion said "Little frog .. I can swim."
  • My Role Play Preferences
  • View My Rolls
  • Referrals: 1
Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #166 on: August 24, 2014, 03:54:36 PM »
I've heard this mentioned, but I don't this situation. If the Grey Knights are so uncorruptable, then why would they do something like this? Don't they realize it's an evil (and, probably, Chaotic) thing to do?

Welcome to Matt Wards fluff.

Hm. The bio doesn't explain how she ended up like that...

No, but it does explain about the ones that were sent to capture her.

Nice idea, but... if someone is so focused on fighting heresy, then how does she end up swearing to Chaos? Doesn't she realize she's becoming a heretic herself?

No, she doesn't.

She takes one step after another, each logical and sensible at the time, and step by step she crosses the line til she looks back and realises she can't even see the line anymore.

And by then, well, who cares?

I once had an idea that a Sister might get a case of panic in the middle of the battle, so she would turn to Nurgle for protection. Nurgle is, in a way, a god of survival, right? The question is, *could* a Sister be so afraid..?

Could a Sister be afraid? Probably. For all their conditioning, they are still human.

Would they call on Nurgle for protection? Probably not.

I would see the plague angle a better one. They call on the Emperor and nothing happens. One by one they sicken and die. The handfull of survivors, the sole survivor calls on anyone who will listen ...

and Nurgle answers.

I'm pretty sure that one has been used to explain others fall to Nurgle. Possibly some of the original Death Guard, I think.

Offline TheGlyphstone

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #167 on: August 24, 2014, 03:56:00 PM »
This Ward person... he's GW equivalent of Chuck Austen, or something?  ;)

I was going to say more like GW's Joe Quesada. Looking over what Wikipedia has to say about Austen, he hasn't inspired nearly as much Raeg-controversy as Quesada did, he's just really pervy.

Offline consortium11

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #168 on: August 24, 2014, 04:12:49 PM »
Ward's a game designer/fluff writer who had a pretty significant impact on Games Workshop and has (rightfully) angered a lot of fans.

On the game design front he wrote one of the most woefully unbalanced army books for a previous version of Fantasy Battle which made one race significantly more powerful then any other.

On the fluff writing front he tends to turn whoever he's writing about into some form of ultimate badass... or, more accurately, a mildly disturbed, completely illogical 12 year old's version of a badass. His fluff repeatedly leads to actions that go against all cannon, make little sense and massively overpower his characters.




I'm not too familiar with Dark Crusade, so I don't know if a character hasto have fallen to Chaos or simply be working against the Imperium/declared a Heretic. If they have to actively worship Chaos then it limits your options somewhat but there are still quite a few approaches you can take.

1) First thing to note; while some Chaos Worshipers do choose to worship Chaos with their eyes open about what they're getting into, others frequently are seduced into it in a similar way to how Jedi fall to the Dark Side in Star Wars. Chaos plays upon people's strengths to create weaknesses; a zealot wishing to spread the Word of the Emperor would be tempted by the power to spread the word further/faster, someone who hates a certain enemy would be given the power to destroy them etc etc.

2) Which of the four Chaos gods are you tempted to go with? Each brings a rather different flavour and would likely include a different fall?

Khorne: A particularly zealous Battle Sister gets too caught up in the joy of burning heretics and falls to bloodlust and madness?

Tzeentch: A sister who goes too far in her pursuit for knowledge?

Slaneesh: A sister who rejects the strict rules of her order/a sister who finds a little too much pleasure in serving the Emperor?

Nurgle: A sister who seeks to use biological science to further her aims? A sister who seeks to use biological warfare to purge unbelievers?

3) The "enemy of my enemy is my friend/fuck you" approach. Maybe the Sister doesn't fall to Chaos subtly but instead chooses it... but not for the reasons most do. Have you ever hated someone so much that you side with their opponent regardless of what or who the opponent is? Perhaps the sister loses faith in the Emperor... or perhaps just the Imperium (there's been more than one 40K fluff character... hell, a whole Chapter of Space Marines... who have gone heretic because of their disgust with the Imperium)... and as a "fuck you" parting shot dedicates herself to tearing it down. The best way to do that in the 40k Universe? Align with Chaos, because every other side would kill/eat you.

Offline BeorningTopic starter

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #169 on: August 24, 2014, 04:47:29 PM »
I was going to say more like GW's Joe Quesada. Looking over what Wikipedia has to say about Austen, he hasn't inspired nearly as much Raeg-controversy as Quesada did, he's just really pervy.

Ooooh, you haven't been there when Austen was writing the X-Men and Avengers books, then  ;D His Wikipedia entry doesn't do justice to the amount of nonsense he introduced to the books, as well as to the amount of hate he generated.

Although, yeah, Quesada might be a better example, if Ward caused some long-term damage to the games.

Anyway...

Thank you for all the suggestions. They will be useful :)

Offline TheGlyphstone

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #170 on: August 24, 2014, 04:57:49 PM »
I guess if you consider 'totally screwing up every bit of non-Necron fluff and rules he got his hands on' to be long-term damage, since GW goes much longer between editions than Marvel goes between writers/storylines. Plus, even for the duration it's impossible to just ignore a stupid codex the way you can ignore a stupid story arc...so yeah, Quesada's probably a closer match.

Offline BeorningTopic starter

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #171 on: August 24, 2014, 05:53:40 PM »
Thinking... thinking... creative gears in B's head spinning...  ;)

Ha. I have two questions:

1. Why is Tzeentch evil, exactly? For all what I read about him, he's just a god of knowledge...

2. Do Sisters fight other things than heretics and Chaos cultists? Do they encounter Tau or Tyranids?

Offline TheGlyphstone

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #172 on: August 24, 2014, 06:08:18 PM »
Tzeentch is the god of Change, not simply Knowledge. Secrets, Mutation, Scheming, and Sorcery are all part of his purview. He thrives when everything is as complicated, contradictory, and random as it can possibly be, the very literal endpoint of utter chaos. Generally, he's depicted as unfathomable because of all the plots, schemes, and plans he has running simultaneously, many of which conflict or outright oppose/counteract each other, because it's not the victory that empowers him so much as the act of scheming in the first place - and because his plots are so convoluted, it requires equally complex counter-plots to defeat them, which also gives him strength.

There's a story from one of the old rulebooks that I think embodies Tzeentchian attitudes best. Imagine a factory worker in a hive, whose job is to pull a lever every time a bell rings, for his entire work shift. He doesn't know what the lever does, but his job is to pull it. Eventually, he starts wondering what the lever does, but can't find out. He's bored, wanting even a tiny bit of variety in his life, wanting something, anything, to change. So one day, he waits thirty seconds after the bell to pull his lever.

Now, that lever is part of a mechanism delivering fuel from a promethium refinery in the depths of the hive all the way up to the shuttleports at the top. The lever controls a valve that opens and closes to move that fuel around the pipe network, and needs to be regularly opened to lower pressure. When our simple worker delays his lever-pull, the pressure builds up just a bit too high, and part of the pipe network explodes. The explosion damages the secure cells of the local Arbites precinct, releasing dozens of violent criminals and heretics into the streets. Riots erupt in the slums, and forces are called in to contain them - but due to a lack of fuel because of a broken pipe, the vehicles needed to reinforce the slums cannot move, and the slums are overrun. The riots spread, and within months the entire hive is in total rebellion. Unable to quell the disorder, Imperial Navy warships are ordered to slag the hive from orbit and kill all two billion inhabitants before the rot can spread. All because a bored worker sought change in his humdrum existence by being slow to pull a lever.

Just As Planned.
(Tzeentch's catchphrase/memetic slogan, for reference.)




2. Sisters aren't usually deployed offensively against Xenos-style threats. Defensively, though, they're frequently called on by the local Imperial authorities to defend Imperial worlds from whatever is attacking them, which can often include aliens.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2014, 06:12:04 PM by TheGlyphstone »

Offline consortium11

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #173 on: August 24, 2014, 06:31:10 PM »
1. Why is Tzeentch evil, exactly? For all what I read about him, he's just a god of knowledge...

Knowledge is simply one aspect of him.

As TheGlyphstone says, he's really the God of Change and in colloquial terms could likely be described as the God of Scheming. Knowledge, notably forbidden knowledge, forms a major part of that for fairly obvious reasons; on a basic level discovering something new brings changes and if you know more than someone else you can out-plot them.

Now, is "change" necessarily evil? No... but neither is pleasure (Slaneesh), anger (Khorne) or mortality (Nurgle). What makes the Chaos Gods evil is that they follow such beliefs without balance or restriction. Tzeentch and his followers want change for changes sake (although Tzeentch will generally tie it into some wider scheme) just as Slaneesh and his followers want pleasure regardless of the consequences.

To apply some pop-Christian mythology to the four Gods, the Khorne-snake in the Garden of Eden would tell Eve to eat the apple because she should be angry that God isn't letting her, the Nurgle-snake because otherwise it will rot and eating it will sustain life, the Slaneesh-snake because it will taste nice and the Tzeentch-snake because it will change things.

Tzeentch is in essence the God of "what if I...?"

2. Do Sisters fight other things than heretics and Chaos cultists? Do they encounter Tau or Tyranids?

They're not generally sent directly against Tau or Tyranids (although they may be called in to purge a world which has agreed to the Tau's philosophy or picked up some Genestealer Cults... or to purge a world after the attack to prevent any hint of heresy) but if they're in the area during an incursion they may be called upon.

Offline BeorningTopic starter

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #174 on: August 25, 2014, 04:38:38 AM »
Thanks for the primer on Tzeentch, guys :)

To ask about something else: is Empire's society feudal? I mean, I know that there is the Emperor and the Ecclesiarchy - but are there nobles etc., too? Or is it more of an egalitarian society?

BTW. I dreamt about WH40K miniatures this night...