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Author Topic: WH40000 - what's your opinion?  (Read 53034 times)

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Offline BeorningTopic starter

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #1475 on: July 29, 2015, 02:55:44 PM »
Hm. Finished bases run the spectrum, but here's one from Reaper (I happened to have the forum open, it saved me a lot of googling): http://www.reapermini.com/Miniatures/warlord/latest/14673
whoever painted that flocked the base and added 'grass' and some other bits, so it looks like the archer's standing on a chunk of actual ground.

Ah, that sort of thing. I decided that I won't be bothering myself with details like that... maybe, sometime in the future, I'll add some grass or rubble, but that's a big "maybe".

Quote
I don't go that far. If I have something that isn't stable, I'll stick it on a base, so it doesn't fall over every time someone looks at it funny, but I don't generally go to the trouble of making the base all fancy. If it's textured, I'll bring that up, but if not? Flat black, and that's good enough for anybody.

I use "Parasite Brown" for ground, as I imagine WH40K battles as taking place in mud and dirt ;)

Quote
... and your sister can whistle. She doesn't have to like it, or approve of it. It's /your/ hobby. You don't have to be good at it, as long as you enjoy it.

I know, I know. And yet, somehow, her lack of approval hit me and I haven't painted anything since we had that argument...

Online arkhos

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #1476 on: July 29, 2015, 03:43:01 PM »
Yeah, lots of folks have a different idea what 'Tabletop quality' means. For me, it's pretty much meant anything that was below 'Show' or 'Competition' quality, and 'Unpainted'. So it's a pretty broad category. ;)

I only shade/detail/etc on important pieces - characters, special figs, etc. Grunts/basic troopers usually get the 'basic' treatment, and I spend more time on the pieces that attract more attention on the table. Or, if a piece is particularly cool, sometimes I feel the urge to put more work into it.

I -always- finish my bases, though. Some people don't care about the base, but I do. A little turf takes only a few minutes of time, and it really does 'finish' the piece, even for grunts and basic troops. I usually save up a few characters/units to all base at one time... not only does it save me time to do it all in one go, but then I am certain they will match up color and consistency-wise. :)
For special pieces, I like to get even more detailed with the base - or for bases for figs that are HUGE, where there's a lot of space, I love to add stuff whether it's rubble, rock, water effects, etc. You -could- sink hours into it, but 99% of the time, it takes me 2-3 minutes per base. Texturing adds a little bit of time since I use pumice and have to let it dry, but after that - 2-3 minutes and it's done.

I've never refused to play someone with unpainted figs (or bases), but I admit, I find it a lot more fun if they are. Not everyone in the hobby 'likes' painting, and I understand that. I love it, but I'm just slow as molasses in December. :)

-ark

Offline Dhi

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #1477 on: July 29, 2015, 06:55:00 PM »
Anyway... Dhi, feel free to post some photos of your stuff here :)
I've thought about making a thread for my work, but it's hard to get motivated. There's hours of work involved in setting up and shooting, and I'm not motivated to impress anybody so much as I am to share my love of painting. Just talking about it is a lot more satisfying and requires less work. But, this weekend I'll see if I can set aside the time.

This is a commission WIP from 2010 I happen to already have online:

Offline Thorne

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #1478 on: July 29, 2015, 07:05:19 PM »
Whatsherpants the Iconic Oracle! That is awesome, Dhi. I love all the bitty details, and that HAIR. Amazing!
I didn't know there was a metal version of that one. I have her in Bones, and I haven't gotten around to painting mine yet. ^^;

To wander back around to basing, the reason I don't generally bother to base mine is that, at least right now I'm painting a lot of Bones, and I can't be arsed to do a lot of extra work when I generally find that I like them as is, and when I stick an extra base to them, it's more for stability than looks (although me, a chunk of wood (pre-weighted and felted) and my Dremel might be getting into it for the metal PF Jabberwocky - that poor guy is so off-balance it's not even funny).
I might - maybe - take on some basing later, if I can find a good workshop. I've never done it, and I'd like to see it done a few times by someone I can pester with questions before I try it myself. ^^;

Offline Dhi

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #1479 on: July 29, 2015, 09:30:13 PM »
Yep! Alahazra. I did most of the Pathfinder iconics as they launched in metal, back around 2010. I kept Kyra for myself since she was always my favorite iconic and represented my first real attempts at painting tiny details like this. A few months ago I revisited Kyra with the Bones sculpt, and even though I like Bones generally, I got a really bad casting. The fingers on her right hand were misaligned and had to be lopped off and resculpted, and she had a hole where her nose should be.

Sculpting and basing are completely separate art forms from the painting, to me. The idea of basing a miniature often seems like a chore, and for commission pieces I'll often go for resin Micro Art base rather than something I've sculpted myself. But I'm trying out different things, and avoiding the flocking/cork bases.

My most recent experiment in basing has been Zen Buddhist with water effects koi ponds, Vallejo sandy paste rock gardens, lilypads of plasticard hole punch leavings, plaster footbridges, and little accents from Wyrd Miniatures.

Offline Lustful Bride

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Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #1480 on: July 30, 2015, 09:26:26 AM »
Im rather shocked to admit this, but my father has become fascinated with 40K, though he admits that hes kind of confused by it al and wants to buy a book to read.

Can anyone tell me of any novels with the Imperium that would be a good way to start him off? (I say imperium because I don't want him getting sympathies for the unholy Xenos)

Online arkhos

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #1481 on: July 30, 2015, 09:35:42 AM »
Im rather shocked to admit this, but my father has become fascinated with 40K, though he admits that hes kind of confused by it al and wants to buy a book to read.

Can anyone tell me of any novels with the Imperium that would be a good way to start him off? (I say imperium because I don't want him getting sympathies for the unholy Xenos)

!!!!!!!!!!

'Unholy Xenos'?!!!!? BAH!

But, I will still make a recommendation. :)

If he's interested in the Imperium, then a good basic starting point would be the Ultramarine series by Graham McNeill.

http://www.amazon.com/Ultramarines-Omnibus-Graham-McNeill/dp/1844164039/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1438266806&sr=8-1&keywords=ultramarine+omnibus

If you don't want an omnibus (even though it's cheap), you might look for the first novel 'Nightbringer' instead.

You can find more recommendations here:

http://www.forbes.com/sites/jenniferbosier/2013/04/03/getting-to-know-warhammer-40000-beginners-guide/

Pretty much anything written by Abnett or McNeill should be more than adequate starting points. :)


« Last Edit: July 30, 2015, 09:40:52 AM by arkhos »

Offline BeorningTopic starter

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #1482 on: July 30, 2015, 01:01:40 PM »
Dhi, I really like that mini you posted!

Any advice on shading? I have no idea how to do it aside from putting wash over various parts of my minis... I'd like to finally try doing some proper shading someday.

Offline eBadger

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #1483 on: July 30, 2015, 05:36:46 PM »
What does a tabletop standard involve for you?

Tabletop, to my understanding, means it's intended for presentation on the tabletop during play - where it's going to be seen amongst many other models from a meter or more away.  Thus, it's painted, with some recognizable contrasting colors, preferably with some technique (shading/highlighting via some technique) but doesn't involve detail or the nuance of a figure meant to be seen close up that would be mostly or entirely lost at a distance.  It's the opposite of display models, which are intended for close personal examination or photos showing them magnified and usually individually. 

There's no absolute standard to it.  My tabletop is better than the best painting others can do, and my best is nowhere near tabletop standard of many others.  Nor is it necessarily 'worse', it's just simpler and with a different goal. 

Offline BeorningTopic starter

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #1484 on: August 01, 2015, 03:57:59 PM »
Using these criteria, I can happily declare my minis to be of tabletop standard :))

No advise on shading, people? I'm going to have two free weeks now, so I'd like to come back to painting...

Online arkhos

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #1485 on: August 01, 2015, 04:12:34 PM »
Using these criteria, I can happily declare my minis to be of tabletop standard :))

No advise on shading, people? I'm going to have two free weeks now, so I'd like to come back to painting...

By no means am I a pro, or even good enough to give very good advice. ;)  BUT...



and



Might be good starting points for you! :)

-ark

Offline Dhi

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #1486 on: August 01, 2015, 06:42:15 PM »
Chris of AG Productions mentions in one of his reviews, I think for the Jeremie Bonamant Teboul, something like "this DVD is for truly advanced painters. If you still consider washing a good technique for shading your miniatures this is probably not for you."

Chris is an intelligent person and has a more lucid way of teaching than a lot of these guys who just sit behind a tripod and ramble, but if you watch more than a few of his videos you may pick up that he's a condescending guy with a very rigid way of thinking. Because he's trying to make a living selling these DVDs, it also pays to sow some seeds of doubt in the minds of the beginner to intermediate painters who are his target audience.

But there never comes a point where artists graduate from washes, which are an inherent part of the three dimensional medium. The models have crevices, and shadows typically pool in crevices. Of course thinning a darker shade so that it stains the crevices is a good way to do this. What else are you going to do? Carefully pick out every detail with a fine brush? No, that would be bollocks.

What Chris does is start with the darkest shade and layer up highlights. It isn't that he's graduated from washes, it's that he doesn't have a step for shading. His whole technique is building up layers of highlights. In the end his pieces are solid. They look clean. It takes a lot longer and in my opinion lacks the color variation or visual interest that makes a thing feel alive and textured and not just a colored plastic toy.

Here's one of his last Let's Paint projects for reference.

How you do washes is important. Often beginning artists will use a prepackaged brown wash from GW for everything, get a grimy earthy look. If and when you feel like this is no longer sufficient, you will need to make your own washes. I have a couple of emulsions I use for all washes. How much I use and how dark of a shade I use depends on texture. Cloth demands some pretty soft shadows, metal has very sharp highlights, skin and faces benefit from blending after washes.

Color variation happens naturally in things that aren't manufactured plastic. In some of their painting tutorials, Privateer Press talk about creating shade colors by mixing in a bit of a complementary color, like green to red, for the shadows. For even greater visual interest, try layering a couple of washes and with unusual mixes of color. Your base color becomes subtly tinted with these rich colors, and the shadows become more interesting, more alive, than just dark outlines. But you're still using washes, because there's nothing wrong with washes. They're a fantastic tool. It's how you use them that matters.

Offline Dhi

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #1487 on: August 02, 2015, 08:46:46 AM »
These are some things I've been trying for the first time.

Fabric translucency
Object source lighting
Marbling
Custom swaps

Reaper Bones and the quality of the plastic were being discussed in another thread. I've been working with Bones a lot for the last year or so. The stone golem above is a Bones piece. Here are some others I've finished, and the issues I've had with Bones.


Kyra had no nose; the fingers on her right hand were misaligned and had to be chopped off and resculpted. Details such as the bracers and the etching on the top of her helmet were too much for the plastic injection and needed to be painted on.


Candelabra would not straighten after repeated boiling. Some things can't be corrected by resetting and this was one of them. Given the choice of whether to drill all the way up through the core and support it with brass rod, I decided "this one is just going to lean."


Evil altar is squashed, and this is most apparent when looking at the misshapen skulls at the corners.


Tre Manor's gnoll is one of the initial run of Bones, before the Kickstarters, and the quality of detail is really close to the white metal. There is a little decay of crispness around the base of some of the armor spikes. That level of detail drops with each new run. It seems unlikely to improve so long as the quality control is taking place at an overworked Chinese plastic injection plant and out of Reaper's hands.

Offline CountessJess

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #1488 on: August 02, 2015, 10:04:06 AM »
Just want to pop in and say, Dhi's avatar's breasts are really something.

Offline Oniya

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Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #1489 on: August 02, 2015, 03:32:47 PM »
Love the marbling and the translucency, Dhi.  Did you hand-craft the veining or did you use an immersion technique?

Offline Dhi

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #1490 on: August 02, 2015, 07:15:29 PM »
I tried out three different techniques that came recommended for marbling with acrylics. The sea sponge technique seemed like it would work best since we use it on larger projects for visual interest, like verdigris on bronze tiles. Across such a small surface, the dappling just looked messy and weathered like a well handled miniature... it didn't communicate the smooth texture I wanted.

One artist did a video where he glazed on different tans and reds for a really stunning marble effect. He showed which colors he used and showed the final product, but didn't even talk about the technique, which is the most important part. Not everybody who makes videos is necessarily a good teacher.

Another was doing rings of paint by watering down acrylic and letting it dry so that the paint settles at the very edges. It's a neat effect, but as time consuming as it is on a flat surface, it simply doesn't work on a three dimensional surface. The water will pool into the crevices. So I made one base this way, but quickly decided it's not the technique for me.

Since none of these tricks were working, I ended up painting all of the veining by hand. The most important techniques were tracing the veins in highlights made translucent with matte medium, and once it was done going back over everything with green mixed with glazing medium to give the illusion that the veining goes below the surface instead of just being painted on.

Immersion is a cool effect and something I'd like to try with oils. I don't think there is a way to achieve the same effect with the acrylics we use, since they're miscible with water. After seeing some of the advantages of oil paints, they're something I'd like to try out in the future. I guess I'd need to use some craft store brushes for oils? I don't dare clean my expensive Kolinsky brushes in mineral spirits.

Offline BeorningTopic starter

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #1491 on: August 03, 2015, 08:28:15 AM »
Sea sponge? Immersion? Boiling? What does it all mean, people? *headsplode*

Anyway, the golem is amazing! I like the flames on the altar, too.

Offline Oniya

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Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #1492 on: August 03, 2015, 01:53:42 PM »
As Dhi pointed out, the sea-sponge and the immersion techniques do not work well on itty-bitty 3-D surfaces like minis, but if you ever wanted to paint something large and flat, you can learn about it here:



The paint is floated on top of the water (so acrylics won't work).  It is then swirled with a brush or stylus into patterns.

The sea-sponge is simply a coarse-grained sponge used to provide texture.  Again, with the size of a mini, the grain is a bit too coarse to make a proper marbling.


Offline Thorne

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #1493 on: August 03, 2015, 02:12:46 PM »
For large-surfaces it works fairly well. I used a small sponge to get a decent mottled-leather effect on the wing-fabric of the Clockwork Wyrm.
That's a fairly large area, and I used a small sponge, though.

Offline BeorningTopic starter

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #1494 on: August 03, 2015, 02:32:22 PM »
... okay, so what's the use of "marbling" the paper? Yes, it creates interesting patters. But the paper itself is ruined, as it becomes wrinkled etc. So... what's the point here?

BTW. I painted my first Wych today. Tried shading, failed again. Drat.

Offline Dhi

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #1495 on: August 03, 2015, 05:04:26 PM »
The guy in the video talks about teaching students something about science, so I assume the purpose is to demonstrate something about miscibility.

A practical immersion technique with a finished product looks something like this.


It's something I'd like to try, maybe for an agate or slate stone effect on a base.

Boiling is just prep work, not any kind of painting technique. Bones miniatures are made of soft plastic which unfortunately can warp when it's lumped into bags with a hundred other miniatures and shipped across the country. Dipping it in some boiling water softens the plastic and should make it relax back to the position it was cast in... then dipping it in cold water should cause it to harden in that position.

Unfortunately some just won't cooperate. The issue may be that not enough plastic was injected into the mould, so it becomes thicker on one side and wants to curve like a creeper vine.

What happened with your shading?

Offline Oniya

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Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #1496 on: August 03, 2015, 05:20:06 PM »
... okay, so what's the use of "marbling" the paper? Yes, it creates interesting patters. But the paper itself is ruined, as it becomes wrinkled etc. So... what's the point here?

BTW. I painted my first Wych today. Tried shading, failed again. Drat.

There's actually a Turkish painting technique called 'Ebru'  that involves floating paint as well, but I was specifically looking for a video that was more 'this is how it's done and why it works'.  There are some lovely examples of ebru painting here.

/hijack

Offline BeorningTopic starter

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #1497 on: August 03, 2015, 05:47:31 PM »
A practical immersion technique with a finished product looks something like this.


Wow. Amazing! Although I'm not sure how this guy's gadget doesn't get damaged by water? Electronic stuff is supposed to be vulnerable to it...

Anyway, that's definitely one cool technique...

Quote
What happened with your shading?

It just... didn't work out. I painted the Wych with a base colour, then applied the black wash. Some of the details became more pronounced, but the base colour became too dark. So, I tried to brighten it by re-painting most of the areas areas with the base colour again... but that destroyed the shading.

I also tried highlighting: Wyches have these bits of plate armour I thought I could paint that way. So, I painted the armour with a darker metallic colour and tried highlighting the edges with a lighter one... but I'm so imprecise that I actually covered all of the darker colour.  ::)

I also tried shading the hair, but it didn't work out too well, either. Somehow, the red wash I used for hair didn't enter too many of the crevices in the hairstyle, so not much of shading was done. I tried to add some more shades but painting some of the crevices with a darker shade of red with a detail brush, but the results are so-so. Hm.

There's actually a Turkish painting technique called 'Ebru'  that involves floating paint as well, but I was specifically looking for a video that was more 'this is how it's done and why it works'.  There are some lovely examples of ebru painting here.

Interesting! Thanks for a link :))

Regarding painting, I have a question: if I have an acrylic paint and add water to it, will the paint's colour be changed? I'm asking as, when painting the Wych, I ran into the annoying problem of Dark Eldar skin colour. They are supposed to be pale, but the "pale skin" colour from Vallejo is too lively for them (in fact, I use it as a normal skin colour for my Sisters). I was wondering whether adding a lot of water to that paint would make it lighter?

Offline Oniya

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Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #1498 on: August 03, 2015, 09:05:10 PM »
You'd probably want to add white and mix it.

Offline Dhi

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #1499 on: August 03, 2015, 09:32:59 PM »
Are you using a manufacturer's wash or making your own? No matter what, a wash is going to stain your surface a little bit. That's normal. So if you're applying black wash to a much lighter color, it is going to look grimy and noticeable. Ink has much more pigment than acrylic paint, making this tendency worse. If you're not sure, a manufacturer's wash that goes on very glossy is likely made with an ink.

Try to cut your black wash with a small drop of your basecoat, add another few drops of water, and see if that looks better.

Some practice with brush control will help you to not cover back up your shadows when highlighting, but could it also be possible you're working with a brush that's too wet or not waiting for the wash to fully dry? When artists thin down paint with water for those thin layers, they also dab excess water off the brush. When I was new to blending I must have watched a dozen videos and nobody even mentioned dabbing off the brush until I actually saw someone do it on camera. Even though you get rid of a lot of water that way, if the thinned paint has been fully mixed with the water, it'll still go on thin.

Water will not change the color of acrylic paint. What it may change is its coverage. This means if you have a white primer and apply a watered down Vallejo (and I would definitely recommend watering down Vallejo) some of the white primer may show through. It might give you a whiter color, or more likely it'll give you a blotchy, uneven coat until you bring it up to a uniform color. Try to mix your pale flesh color with a tiny bit of warm white or ivory or very light pink instead.

Ultimately all acrylic paint is a little bit transparent. Pale flesh over a black primer is going to be darker than pale flesh over white primer or a white undercoat. I use a white gesso for everything because I want bright, vibrant colors to show through.

Vallejo droppers will also separate, especially the Game Color line. You really have to shake them relentlessly before using, until your arm hurts. If the paint comes out of the dropper too dark, the issue may be that pale flesh's component colors have separated and you're getting mostly the dark pigment.