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Author Topic: WH40000 - what's your opinion?  (Read 53338 times)

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Offline HairyHeretic

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Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #1425 on: July 04, 2015, 04:27:31 PM »
We've all been there :)

Offline Thorne

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #1426 on: July 04, 2015, 06:13:10 PM »
Yes, we have.

And paints don't go bad overnight. You might not use them for this project, but they may come in useful for another project on down the line.
Nevermind the possibilities of mixing your own custom colours, for which you should /totally/ take notes and share. *sage nod*

Offline BeorningTopic starter

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #1427 on: July 05, 2015, 02:03:57 PM »
I know that the paints could turn out useful someday... Nevertheless, I just don't have that much money so that I would feel comfortable with such situation. Plus, I really would like to start painting that Wych sometime soon...

As for the custom colours, I'm trying that :) But I'm having trouble replicating the results of mixing. So, I don't want to base the main parts of the colour scheme on something so uncontrollable as mixing the paints.

Anyway! Anyone of you have any opinion on the new Fantasy Battle, AKA Age of Sigmar?

Offline HairyHeretic

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Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #1428 on: July 05, 2015, 04:23:45 PM »
From what I've heard, it's odd. Very, very odd. If I had to catagorise it, Warhammer Munchkin.

It sounds like it's playing at a smaller skirmish level, but there are quite literally insane special rules. For example

The gift of Tongues:
At the start of the combat phase, Wulfrik can issue an indelicate challenge in his foe’s tongue if there is an enemy Hero within 3".
Issue your opponent with a challenge of your own – you can be as mocking, rude or insulting as you dare; if your opponent rises to the bait and they change expression, even so much as crack a smile or a glimmer of shock, Wulfrik’s challenge is successful and you can re-roll failed hit rolls for any attacks he makes this phase against enemy Heroes

Supreme Vanity:
 Sigvald is narcissism personified, unable to go more than a few moments without seeking a mirrored surface. You can re-roll failed save rolls for Sigvald if you can see your reflection
or are holding a mirror when you roll the dice. However, if the result of any of these re-rolls is 1, Sigvald becomes entranced by his own perfection, and cannot pile in or make attacks for the rest of the phase.

Petrifying   gaze:
The magical gaze of a Cockatrice can transfix foes where they stand, turning them to stone. In your shooting phase, pick a visible unit within range, look your opponent in the eye and roll a dice. Add one to the roll if your opponent blinks first and subtract one from the roll if you do. If the result is 4 or more, the target unit is caught in the Cockatrice’s gaze and suffers D6 mortal wounds

and so on. There are similar things for all the different armies.

http://www.games-workshop.com/en-IE/age-of-sigmar-compendiums

GW appear to have put all the rules for AoS up for free to download on the website, and I'm told the core rules are only 4 pages. I haven't tried it yet, but I may give it a go to see how it plays.

Offline consortium11

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #1429 on: July 05, 2015, 09:31:25 PM »
I had a quick glance over the rules and... eh, yeah.

First, as far as I can tell there's no points for units or limit on what you can pick; want an army consisting of seven versions of your most OP hero? Absolutely legitimate. Obviously you can house rule around this but still...

Secondly, there seems to be a distinct lack of interaction between your units and the enemy. Take combat (ranged and melee use the same rules). If my unit attacks then its hit chances are dependent entirely on the weapon I use; the opponents skill (unless represented by special abilities) doesn't matter. Likewise my chance to wound... again, unless represented by a special ability then a Skavenslave wounds both a Giant and a Goblin on a roll of 4+. The only hint of interactivity is in saving throws; the player of a wounder unit rolls against their save score (i.e on 4+ you need a roll a 4 or higher) and detracts the oppositions "rend score" from it.

Having not played I'm not sure if this is just theory craft but ranged seems overpowered at the moment. To take a simple example, Empire Archers hit on 4+ and wound on 4+. They also have a special ability where a unit of 30+ can reroll all missed hits (units of 10 or more can reroll a 1, 20 or more reroll a 2). Taking the none gamebreaking interpretation so you can only roll once, that means a unit of 40 would land 20 hits immediately and another 10 on the reroll for 30 hits and 15 wounds. Dwarf Ironbreakers... a unit you'd assume would be one of the most defensively solid in the game... only save on a 4+ to begin with (while they have an ability which helps them negate rend the archers don't have rend to begin with) and a single wound that's likely somewhere between seven and eight Ironbreakers dead in a single turn to one (admittedly fairly large) group of basic archers.

Put a seemingly more elite unit of archers, such as the Wood Elf's Waywatchers in there? 40 (one of whom makes two shots to begin with) of them using one of their special abilities so they make an additional shot and fire yet another if they roll a six to hit, hitting on 3+ and wounding on 4+. That's 81 shots to begin with + an additional 13 or so for rolling sixes for a combined 94 shots and around 62 hits, 32 wounds and 16 dead Ironbreakers. Now, Waywatchers are clearly meant to be good archers and 40 is a huge group of them (although remember, officially no point restrictions)... but that's still a large amount of casualties. In addition as far as I can see there's no rules either against or giving negative effects for firing into units engaged in combat as long as they can see an enemy unit... so if you put a meatshield in front of those Waywatchers then they'll likely get at least three turns firing at the Ironbreakers (two while they get into range to charge and one when they're stuck in combat with the meatshield). That's an average of what, 48 dead Ironbreakers? That seems massively excessive.

You want an even more dramatic example? Put those 40 Empire Archers against a single giant. That's 15 wounds and the Giant only saves on 5+... so 10 wounds inflicted and a virtually dead Giant (with a mere two wounds remaining) in one turn of shooting. Or go back to the Waywatchers. 25 of them using the previously mentioned special ability fire 51 shots which becomes around 60 with rerolling sixes. 60 shots hitting on 3+ gives 40 hits, 20 wounds and around 13 wounds... enough to kill a giant in a single turn.

Perhaps the biggest thing that leaps out about balance is this however; turns aren't set. Instead of working out who goes first at the start of the battle and keeping that order now you roll at the start of each turn; whoever rolls highest gets to go first. That means that a player who goes second one turn but goes first the next essentially gets to have two turns in a row; that strikes me as quite possibly being game breaking.

Overall, even if you get rid of the stupid "do something in real life and gain a bonus" special rules the entire thing seems cobbled together and somewhat of a beta test.

Offline arkhos

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #1430 on: July 06, 2015, 05:16:19 AM »
I've gotten a few games of AoS in so far, and our results have been.... interesting.

The mechanics in general make for a fast game. We all had fun, as well. This is -not- Warhammer '9th edition'. In fact, it's best to simply think of it as a completely new game.

But the game has a couple HUGE flaws.

First - no army building rules. You can take whatever you want - even mix figures from different factions. You can also take as -many- as one thing as you want (on most warscrolls. Some do limit you to a single model). Want 100 Chaos Warriors? Go for it!

Second - Summoning is outrageous, and tons of armies have the ability to do it. The generic Chaos Lord, for example... every turn he can roll a d6 - on a 4+, he can call in reinforcements - one of various units with a certain tag. Yep, Chaos Knights and Chaos Warriors are on that list. AND,that unit can be as big as you want. The one game I saw him in, the guy failed the roll on turns 1-3, but made it roll on turn 4-5. POOF, virtually another entire army appears. Heck, I saw where one of the Lords of Change can summon... another Lord of Change! Ugh.

That being said, GW reps have mentioned that in the coming months, there will be 'force construction guidelines' coming out. Right now it's a virtual free-for-all as they wanted people to 'get used to' the new rules, as it's a pretty monumental change from their usual game standards.

The group I played with... they're non-munchkins, so we all agreed on certain number of models max, and a certain number of wounds max, and eliminating summoning altogether. Doing that... we actually had a fabulous time.

The biggest boon is - the rules and the army lists are free. You can use your current figs just fine. So really, you are only investing an hour or two to try it. But right now, trying it will likely give you a negative feeling, I am afraid.

My group still holds out hope that GW will get stuff rolling to the point where this game can be salvaged before it crashes and burns fresh from the womb!

Offline Samael

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Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #1431 on: July 06, 2015, 05:12:17 PM »
I'll just leave this here



*..carefully moves back out of the thread, then runs.*

Offline arkhos

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #1432 on: July 06, 2015, 05:19:38 PM »
I'll just leave this here

*..carefully moves back out of the thread, then runs.*

Yeah. That's like 15 special rules for very specific models... across a range of hundreds. They're goofy rules made as a 'send off' for the old edition/older models. Supposedly these types of rules will not be created for their -new- figs and factions, so we'll see. :)

Some of those aren't any big deal (the Skaven one can't even be accomplished - it's there for goofy fluff text). The guys I play with would all just accept it and let you have the benefit without looking (or sounding) silly.

Offline Oniya

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Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #1433 on: July 06, 2015, 08:55:57 PM »
I can think of at least five people in my circle that would not only require the full 'fluff performance', but would engage in it with great enthusiasm.  Meanwhile, someone would probably be uploading it all to YouTube.

Offline arkhos

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #1434 on: July 06, 2015, 08:56:55 PM »
I can think of at least five people in my circle that would not only require the full 'fluff performance', but would engage in it with great enthusiasm.  Meanwhile, someone would probably be uploading it all to YouTube.

And therein lies the TRUE danger of such rules! ;)

Offline HairyHeretic

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Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #1435 on: July 08, 2015, 05:57:36 AM »
I read a post this morning on my FB feed from one of the wargaming sites that makes it sound like the AoS rules (being aimed, apparently, at the early teen market) are airbrushing Slaanesh out of the game, going with the 'captured and imprisoned' angle. I can't say I care for that, if it's true. I'm not a major Slaaneshi fan, but Slaanesh is an integral part of Chaos, just as much as Khorne, Tzeentch and Nurgle.

Offline BeorningTopic starter

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #1436 on: July 08, 2015, 09:18:08 AM »
Nooooooooooo! Are they insane? Slaanesh is the only one of the Chaos gods that is actually scary...

Maybe the possible sexual implications of Slaanesh are making the GW uneasy?

Offline HairyHeretic

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Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #1437 on: July 08, 2015, 10:55:14 AM »
If they're aiming AoS at a young teen audience, Slaanesh isn't going to play well with that demographics parents and their credit cards :P

Offline TheGlyphstone

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #1438 on: July 08, 2015, 11:14:42 AM »
The blood-drenched slaughtermurder of Khorne, festering oozing disease of Nurgle, and rampant twisted insanity of Tzeentch are all good though. But SAVE THE CHILDREN from NAKED SKIN.

Why can't they reinvent Slaanesh as the God of Heavy Metal again? That would play to this generation of parents better.

Offline Oniya

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Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #1439 on: July 08, 2015, 11:20:59 AM »
The blood-drenched slaughtermurder of Khorne, festering oozing disease of Nurgle, and rampant twisted insanity of Tzeentch are all good though. But SAVE THE CHILDREN from NAKED SKIN.

Why can't they reinvent Slaanesh as the God of Heavy Metal again? That would play to this generation of parents better.

So glad I haven't started drinking my coffee yet.  Would be a shame to give my monitor a bath.  ;D

Offline BeorningTopic starter

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #1440 on: July 08, 2015, 11:24:00 AM »
Well, admittedly, I wouldn't want my children to play with toys openly associated with sex (especially perverted sex), either...

Offline HairyHeretic

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Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #1441 on: July 08, 2015, 11:26:40 AM »
Slaanesh isn't just about sex though. Slaanesh is about excess .. everything louder, faster, more intense. Sex just happens to be the easiest way to portray that.

Offline BeorningTopic starter

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #1442 on: July 08, 2015, 12:24:09 PM »
True, but sex does belong to his portfolio. And the daemonettes kind of drip with sex...

I don't know - I think that Slaanesh is one of the best things in Warhammer, so I don't want to see him gone. Still, I do agree he isn't for kids...

Offline HairyHeretic

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Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #1443 on: July 08, 2015, 12:52:31 PM »
To quote George R.R. Martin

“I can describe an axe entering a human skull in great explicit detail and no one will blink twice at it. I provide a similar description, just as detailed, of a penis entering a vagina, and I get letters about it and people swearing off. To my mind this is kind of frustrating, it’s madness. Ultimately, in the history of [the] world, penises entering vaginas have given a lot of people a lot of pleasure; axes entering skulls, well, not so much.”

Offline Oniya

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Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #1444 on: July 08, 2015, 01:23:28 PM »
Slaanesh isn't just about sex though. Slaanesh is about excess .. everything louder, faster, more intense. Sex just happens to be the easiest way to portray that.

Harder, better, faster... Wait.  Slaanesh is Daft Punk?!

Offline HairyHeretic

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Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #1445 on: July 08, 2015, 01:44:49 PM »
Harder, better, faster... Wait.  Slaanesh is Daft Punk?!

I had considered making that one myself :)

Offline BeorningTopic starter

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #1446 on: July 08, 2015, 02:47:28 PM »
To quote George R.R. Martin

“I can describe an axe entering a human skull in great explicit detail and no one will blink twice at it. I provide a similar description, just as detailed, of a penis entering a vagina, and I get letters about it and people swearing off. To my mind this is kind of frustrating, it’s madness. Ultimately, in the history of [the] world, penises entering vaginas have given a lot of people a lot of pleasure; axes entering skulls, well, not so much.”

True, but I really don't think that witnessing violence in media has such a detrimental effect on kids like witnessing sex. There's a reason we shield children from erotica / porn, right?

Offline Oniya

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Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #1447 on: July 08, 2015, 03:12:03 PM »
I'd say that's a bit beyond the scope of this thread.

Offline BeorningTopic starter

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #1448 on: July 08, 2015, 03:14:16 PM »
Yes, of course. Sorry!

Offline TheGlyphstone

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #1449 on: July 08, 2015, 04:09:47 PM »
There is in fact a whole separate thread about this sort of thing in PROC right now, I believe.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2015, 07:08:53 PM by TheGlyphstone »