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Author Topic: WH40000 - what's your opinion?  (Read 53096 times)

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Offline Oniya

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Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #1350 on: June 07, 2015, 01:21:50 PM »
Nice work on the little silver bits on the armor!

And while you might not have an overall color scheme, Hairy's 'assembly line' technique could still be applied to some degree.  I'm pretty sure I've mentioned the technique of 'dressing' your miniatures - painting the lowest level of the body first, and the outer layers in sequence.  You may have to clean your brushes more frequently with the different schemes, but you could still paint all the flesh first, then all the base armor, then all the fiddly bits (weapons and ornamentation), using the 'dry time' to work on a different model.

Offline BeorningTopic starter

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #1351 on: June 07, 2015, 03:04:47 PM »
I think that's the technique I'm using right now... With the Seraphim, I started with painting the face and hair. Then, I painted the armour - and then, the weapons and the robe (two colours). Of course, it resulted in quite a few places where retouching was needed, so that came next. The silver bits and the brown belt pouches were the last things painted.

Thanks for your compliments on the silver bits, Oniya :) I can do such things now, as I've purchased a 0/10 brush. I can't imagine that the first three minis I painted without it - it's so helpful!

The thing I'm most pleased is the shading of the jump pack's exhausts. For once, the shading had exactly the effect I wanted it to have!

Jess, I'll try thinning my paints. We'll see if that helps...

Offline HairyHeretic

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Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #1352 on: June 07, 2015, 03:08:54 PM »
From what I've heard, white is a bit of a bugger to work with and get looking good. Yet another good reason for me to paint my armies black :P

I'll see if I can take a couple of pics of the Kill Team I painted up, more or less using the technique I descibed.

Offline Oniya

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Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #1353 on: June 07, 2015, 03:49:42 PM »
I think that's the technique I'm using right now... With the Seraphim, I started with painting the face and hair. Then, I painted the armour - and then, the weapons and the robe (two colours). Of course, it resulted in quite a few places where retouching was needed, so that came next. The silver bits and the brown belt pouches were the last things painted.

*nodnods*  Just noting that you could do the 'face and hair' step on several models at once, and then when the first one's dry, start in on the armour, etc.  It basically turns the 'wait time' into 'productive time', and you'd end up with several models finished in the same amount of hours/days.

Online Thorne

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #1354 on: June 08, 2015, 01:15:10 AM »
I do black under anything metallic - especially silver/grey metal has a bad tendency to wash out, painted over white.

I've been painting a lot of dungeon furniture of late - stalagmites, as well as statuary and actual furniture. When I finish her though, I should probably take a picture of this marilith I'm working on. I'm all sorts of thrilled with her right now.

Offline BeorningTopic starter

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #1355 on: June 08, 2015, 11:46:39 AM »
From what I've heard, white is a bit of a bugger to work with and get looking good. Yet another good reason for me to paint my armies black :P

I'm growing tired of black, personally. Many of my Sisters will be black, but I'll have to choose something different for my DE. Something dark, but not completely black...

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I'll see if I can take a couple of pics of the Kill Team I painted up, more or less using the technique I descibed.

Can't wait for the pics! :)

*nodnods*  Just noting that you could do the 'face and hair' step on several models at once, and then when the first one's dry, start in on the armour, etc.  It basically turns the 'wait time' into 'productive time', and you'd end up with several models finished in the same amount of hours/days.

Interestingly, I... don't have too much of 'wait time' when painting. When I was painting the Seraphim, I painted the jump pack after painting the hair and face. Then, I painted the base... and then, the main mini was already dry. Overall, the paints I use tend to dry really fast... maybe because I don't add water  :P

I've been painting a lot of dungeon furniture of late - stalagmites, as well as statuary and actual furniture. When I finish her though, I should probably take a picture of this marilith I'm working on. I'm all sorts of thrilled with her right now.

Do post when you get her finished!

On another note - you know, I've long said that Eva Green played the perfect female deathknight / blackguard in 300: Rise of Empire, but... you could say that there's a bit of Dark Eldar in her there:



If a WH40K movie / TV series ever gets made, Eva must be in it! :)

Offline BeorningTopic starter

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #1356 on: June 10, 2015, 09:15:43 AM »
I keep reading the WH40K rulebook at work...

Today, I read the rules regarding characters. Is it me or... don't characters have too many rules? I mean, they move like every other infantry models. The difference is that some of them can join different units (or act on their own) and that they can part in challenges. That seems to be it... or am I missing something here?

Offline HairyHeretic

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Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #1357 on: June 10, 2015, 09:23:18 AM »
Individual codexes can add additional rules for characters, as can whatever wargear they take.

Offline BeorningTopic starter

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #1358 on: June 10, 2015, 01:17:58 PM »
Any examples? In the two codexes I've read, I haven't seen anything too special regarding the characters - they have access to some unique gear and that's it...

Offline HairyHeretic

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Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #1359 on: June 10, 2015, 04:50:44 PM »
A Chaos Lord has the 'Champion of Chaos' rule , which means he must always issue and accept challenges where possible. If he kills an enemy character he gets to roll on the Chaos boon table, which might grant him a reward for the remainder of the game (and generally another special rule because of that), or possibly turning him into a Chaos Spawn or Daemon Prince.

Also if they take a Mark, those will also grant additional special rules.
« Last Edit: June 10, 2015, 04:51:50 PM by HairyHeretic »

Offline BeorningTopic starter

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #1360 on: June 13, 2015, 11:33:24 AM »
I see, thanks.

Have you guys checked the GW webpage lately? They released new stuff for... Space Marines! As if there wasn't enough SM stuff already...

Where's new Sororitas stuff, I ask? I could use a model for Sororitas Rhino, for once... which is in the codex, but has no model (at least, not now).

Offline BeorningTopic starter

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #1361 on: June 14, 2015, 11:39:36 AM »
I was re-reading the DE codex today at work to get some ideas for a background for my future DE army (okay, I may be weird, but I can't resist working out a whole story for them). Aside from confronting me again with how twisted (but awesome) this race is, it gave me some crazy ideas for romance pairings. Like:

Succubus x Mandrake
Female Haemonculus x any other character type

and, the last but not least:

Female Wych x Deathwatch Space Marine

Come on, this last one could be a romance of the century!!! :D

Plus, don't you guys think that a repentant Dark Eldar warrior could make a cool acolyte for an Inquisitor of the Radical type?

Offline deadmanshand

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #1362 on: June 14, 2015, 12:14:42 PM »
You literally cannot have either of the last two happen. Deathwatch are the most xeno hating group in the Imperium. They are the fanatics of the fanatics. So strong in their zeal that they were sent to a group that only hunts and kills xenos. They don't even talk to the rare xeno they capture. They bind them, gag, and turn them over torturers for questioning. That's it.

And no Inquisitor would ever take a Dark Eldar as an acolyte - or anything really. You are talking about a race that literally must feed on the pain of others. They cannot deny the thirst or Slaanesh eats their soul. There are no repentant Dark Eldar. They would die. Either because their fellows would see them as weak and hate-fuck-murder them or because they would stop feeding and Slaanesh would eat their souls.

Not too mention the moment anyone else learned of your Deathwatch marine or Inquisitor they would be executed. With extreme 40k level harshness.

The Dark Eldar are inflexible by the very nature of their (terrible, terrible) fluff. There is literally no explanation for either of your ideas that does not immediately and irrevocably break canon in a massive way.

Offline BeorningTopic starter

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #1363 on: June 14, 2015, 12:21:32 PM »
The DE fluff isn't terrible! :) The newest codex is so full of win... But, of course, I am a horror fan.

As for the Wych / Deathwatch SM pairing: hey, I *know* it's a crack pairing. It's what makes it fun...  ;)

And when it comes to the Inquisitor idea... well, there are Inquisitors who employ mutants or summon daemons. Why couldn't one of them (a very Radical one, admittedly) employ a DE that has had a falling out with the rest of their race? There is a distinct advantage of having such a crazy killer in your retinue...

Offline Oniya

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Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #1364 on: June 14, 2015, 12:59:54 PM »
I think then you start to run into Drizzt Do'Urden levels of Gary Stu-ness.

Offline deadmanshand

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #1365 on: June 14, 2015, 01:15:15 PM »
The DE fluff isn't terrible! :) The newest codex is so full of win... But, of course, I am a horror fan.

As for the Wych / Deathwatch SM pairing: hey, I *know* it's a crack pairing. It's what makes it fun...  ;)

And when it comes to the Inquisitor idea... well, there are Inquisitors who employ mutants or summon daemons. Why couldn't one of them (a very Radical one, admittedly) employ a DE that has had a falling out with the rest of their race? There is a distinct advantage of having such a crazy killer in your retinue...

I'm a horror fan and I despise the Dark Eldar. There is literally not a single cool thing about them. But my objections are not based off of my personal feelings about these horrible shitbag S&M Space Elves. They are based around the fluff of the setting itself.

It's not crack. It's impossible for all the reasons I listed plus the fact that Space Marines are chemically neutered and psychologically conditioned to hate xenos. Especially ones labeled Xenos Diabolos - which means they are a threat to mankind by there very existence. There is no justification for it.

Mutants are different than xenos. Psykers, ogryn, and ratlings are accepted as long as they are useful by most inquisitors. The only Inquisitors who summon daemons are rogue Inquisitors. Not radical. Those ones get hunted down by the Imperium. And they have better options for killers. Officio Assasanorum exists for a reason. Just as trained, better equipped, and absolutely loyal to the Imperium. No trying to figure out if they are trustworthy or finding some explanation for how they fell out with their race. Just a call to an office and absolute loyalty.

There are a lot of things you could justify DE's with - Slaanesh cultists and marines (who would find the DE's attempt at debauchery cute), Orks (who plain don't give a shit), Tau (mistakenly trying to convert them to the Greater Good) - but not Deathwatch or Inquisitors. They are literally the worst, most canon breaking pairings you could possibly make for them.

Offline BeorningTopic starter

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #1366 on: June 14, 2015, 01:39:52 PM »
I'm a horror fan and I despise the Dark Eldar. There is literally not a single cool thing about them.

Out of curiosity: what's your opinion on the Hellraiser franchise? This is not as unrelated as it might seem...  8-)

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It's not crack. It's impossible for all the reasons I listed plus the fact that Space Marines are chemically neutered and psychologically conditioned to hate xenos. Especially ones labeled Xenos Diabolos - which means they are a threat to mankind by there very existence. There is no justification for it.

Well, I tend to believe that there's nothing impossible in the world of fiction :)

Also, the pairings I listed are pairings for use in the type of stories we tell here on E. I mean, how many ideas for Jedi / Sith pairings are floating around here?  ;) I do agree that these pairings are unusual and I wouldn't necessarily want to see them in canon fluff, but as E stories, why not?

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Mutants are different than xenos. Psykers, ogryn, and ratlings are accepted as long as they are useful by most inquisitors. The only Inquisitors who summon daemons are rogue Inquisitors. Not radical.

I'd say that both the WH40K 7E rulebook and the Dark Heresy 2E material suggests otherwise. But I do agree that it'd take a very radical Inquisitor to employ a xenos warrior, true. Still, some Inquisitors might just be that weird...

Also, note that some groups of Inquisitors utterly hate all kind of mutants and want to seem all of them annihilated... So, it's not like mutants are "accepted". Heck, even psykers aren't necessarily accepted... just tolerated.

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And they have better options for killers. Officio Assasanorum exists for a reason. Just as trained, better equipped, and absolutely loyal to the Imperium. No trying to figure out if they are trustworthy or finding some explanation for how they fell out with their race. Just a call to an office and absolute loyalty.

Good point, but aren't the OA more of High Lords of Terra's servants, not the Inquisition's?

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There are a lot of things you could justify DE's with - Slaanesh cultists and marines (who would find the DE's attempt at debauchery cute), Orks (who plain don't give a shit), Tau (mistakenly trying to convert them to the Greater Good) - but not Deathwatch or Inquisitors. They are literally the worst, most canon breaking pairings you could possibly make for them.

As I said, I realize there pairing are kind of canon-straining, but...

And why do you think that the Slaanesh cultists are more debauched than the DE?  I tend to think it's the other way around ;D

I think then you start to run into Drizzt Do'Urden levels of Gary Stu-ness.

Really? It's not like I'd drop the DE's addiction to inflicting pain and make the character into someone harmless. It'd be more akin to the character being a reluctant monster - someone who needs to kill and torture, but chooses to direct these needs at the people who kind of deserve it...

Ever read the Hack/Slash comic? The lead character is a Buffy-esque hunter of slasher killers. But there's this question whether she actually might be a slasher in the making herself, as she is *very good* at, well, slashing and hacking, and she seems to find pleasure in it. Also, in NWoD's Hunter: the Vigil, there is this concept of some hunter groups employing slashers to kill other monsters. This DE character could be just it: a "slasher" who chooses to work for the right side (as long as there is a "right side" in the WH40K universe)...

Offline deadmanshand

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #1367 on: June 14, 2015, 02:25:08 PM »
Out of curiosity: what's your opinion on the Hellraiser franchise? This is not as unrelated as it might seem...  8-)

Clive Barker is my favorite living author. Other than chains and an element of S&M the two have no relation. The base concept of the Dark Eldar does not offend me. It's their execution of the idea that offends me. They could have been something interesting but instead were turned into what they are. Slaanesh cultist wannabes with a fetish for leather.


Also, the pairings I listed are pairings for use in the type of stories we tell here on E. I mean, how many ideas for Jedi / Sith pairings are floating around here?  ;) I do agree that these pairings are unusual and I wouldn't necessarily want to see them in canon fluff, but as E stories, why not?

No. They don't work here either. You want a chemically neutered (i.e. can't get it up and doesn't experience any form of sexual desire) xenos hating (to the point of joining an order dedicated to wiping out xenos) to fall for a sadistic, utterly malevolent xeno that feeds on pain and suffering. It literally has no justification. None. You cannot make a basis for that story that does not make the story not Warhammer 40K.

I'd say that both the WH40K 7E rulebook and the Dark Heresy 2E material suggests otherwise. But I do agree that it'd take a very radical Inquisitor to employ a xenos warrior, true. Still, some Inquisitors might just be that weird...

Also, note that some groups of Inquisitors utterly hate all kind of mutants and want to seem all of them annihilated... So, it's not like mutants are "accepted". Heck, even psykers aren't necessarily accepted... just tolerated.

No. Every Inquisitor who summons daemons is considered rogue and hunted down. Every Inquisitor who consorts with a xenos diabolus is considered rogue and hunted down. Without question. That is canon. There is no justification for either.

And I said most accepted mutants. Not all.

Good point, but aren't the OA more of High Lords of Terra's servants, not the Inquisition's?

Every thing in the Imperium that isn't AdMech or Astartes works for the Inquisition. Even barring that Inquisitors are the most frequent employers of assassins from the Officio Assasanorum. Canon.

As I said, I realize there pairing are kind of canon-straining, but...

Not straining. Breaking violently. This isn't a crack pairing where one character is made gay or ends up with someone who hates them in the show. This breaks the very basis of who the characters and setting are.

And why do you think that the Slaanesh cultists are more debauched than the DE?  I tend to think it's the other way around ;D

You would be wrong per canon again. The DE are very basic when it comes to debauchery. Rape, torture, rinse and repeat. Congratulations. Slaanesh followers start at that and move up in the world. Which makes sense since they are guided by the Chaos God of pleasure and excess who is stated to have moved far beyond what it was at the time the eldar created it. Especially when it has been stated that the DE's are much less debauched than there ancestors who created Slaanesh. Even the though of comparing what a DE considers debauchery to what a Noise Marine considers debauchery is laughable.

Really? It's not like I'd drop the DE's addiction to inflicting pain and make the character into someone harmless. It'd be more akin to the character being a reluctant monster - someone who needs to kill and torture, but chooses to direct these needs at the people who kind of deserve it...

Ever read the Hack/Slash comic? The lead character is a Buffy-esque hunter of slasher killers. But there's this question whether she actually might be a slasher in the making herself, as she is *very good* at, well, slashing and hacking, and she seems to find pleasure in it. Also, in NWoD's Hunter: the Vigil, there is this concept of some hunter groups employing slashers to kill other monsters. This DE character could be just it: a "slasher" who chooses to work for the right side (as long as there is a "right side" in the WH40K universe)...

Except that that reasoning doesn't work for Dark Eldar. They aren't just humans with a penchant for rape and torture. It's an inherent thirst where they can feel Slaanesh reaching for them. And they aren't vampires. They were never human. They don't have a scale of right and wrong to even begin to approach that kind of idea. They don't feel bad about what they do. Especially when it comes to humans. Humans are food. Little mayfly lives running around pretending to have meaning and impact. They literally feed off of their pain and fear and have done so for centuries. Millennia. From the time theyr were children.

How do you feel bad about that?

Write these stories if you want to. It's not like I'd be your partner. It has been established that the people on Elliquiy have very different opinions on what is good about 40K and what is bad about it from the vast majority of people who like the setting. Citing that Dark Eldar and Tombcrons are two of the least popular armies in 40K. DE's being the single least popular. So I know my tastes in the setting are not compatible with anyone here. Which is a shame because the writers here are much better than the ones on RPOL. I am just stating why from canon perspective these ideas would not work and why they would throw off most fans of the setting.

Offline Wajin

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #1368 on: June 14, 2015, 02:30:23 PM »
´Enough tears now, little maiden. You have the look of the frostborn about you. What tribe, huntress?’
‘The Broken Tusk, Great King.’ Her voice was a mouse’s, no louder than that.
‘I still remember them. Vicious bastards, every one. A blessing in a battle if they were on your side, and a curse if they weren’t. Awful sailors, though. That’s the sad truth.’
The Dreadnought stepped back, releasing her cheek. ‘No finer sight on any world than a frostborn maiden. Especially a beauty with black hair. Rare back when I had eyes to stare, and surely even rarer now.’
I stared at the towering figure, wondering if there was some difference in the process by which gene-seed was once cultivated compared to the method now. He seemed to be able to determine that Annika was attractive. I wasn’t sure I could make that perception myself, and I had a thousand other questions to ask: about the warrior’s experiences in the age of the Heresy; about witnessing the Emperor in person; about the classes of vessels that once sailed the stars and now no longer saw use…


A very good example in the fiction of why space marines don't have sex, other than them being chemically (and possibly surgically) neutered

Offline BeorningTopic starter

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #1369 on: June 14, 2015, 02:52:53 PM »
Clive Barker is my favorite living author. Other than chains and an element of S&M the two have no relation.

Well, considering that S&M and body modification are *the core* of Hellraiser, I'd say there's a lot of relation, actually... Seriously, Haemonculi and Wracks? They are the Cenobites gone sci-fi.

And Mandrakes are just your basic horror movie slashers...

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The base concept of the Dark Eldar does not offend me. It's their execution of the idea that offends me. They could have been something interesting but instead were turned into what they are. Slaanesh cultist wannabes with a fetish for leather.

Actually, they don't necessarily wear leather... And they don't worship Slaanesh.

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No. They don't work here either. You want a chemically neutered (i.e. can't get it up and doesn't experience any form of sexual desire) xenos hating (to the point of joining an order dedicated to wiping out xenos) to fall for a sadistic, utterly malevolent xeno that feeds on pain and suffering. It literally has no justification. None. You cannot make a basis for that story that does not make the story not Warhammer 40K.

Well, if you ask me, only the "chemically neutered" part seems like a real obstacle. The rest is... probability. It just takes *one* Space Marine that isn't *completely* xenos-hating and one xeno that is capable for feeling something else than bloodlust. And I'd argue that the DE *can* feel other emotions - they aren't Daleks, who had every emotion other than hate bred out of them...

As I said, people play around with Jedi x Sith pairings, which may be similarly improbable. And how many angel x demon pairings are there? Not only here on E, but in published fiction (for instance, Garth Ennis wrote that very pairing into two separate, critically-acclaimed comic series...)

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No. Every Inquisitor who summons daemons is considered rogue and hunted down. Every Inquisitor who consorts with a xenos diabolus is considered rogue and hunted down. Without question. That is canon. There is no justification for either.

WH40 Rulebook, page 28: "If you want your Astra Militarum Psyker to summon a new unit of Daemons during the game, then it's fine, although the Psyker in question might have some explaining to do after the battle (...) If, for example, the Inquisitor in your narrative is harnessing forbidden knowledge to further his cause, you and your opponent might agree before your game begins that it is perfectly appropriate for him to manifest Malefic powers."

Just saying :)

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Not straining. Breaking violently. This isn't a crack pairing where one character is made gay or ends up with someone who hates them in the show. This breaks the very basis of who the characters and setting are.

We'll have to agree to disagree here...

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You would be wrong per canon again. The DE are very basic when it comes to debauchery. Rape, torture, rinse and repeat. Congratulations. Slaanesh followers start at that and move up in the world. Which makes sense since they are guided by the Chaos God of pleasure and excess who is stated to have moved far beyond what it was at the time the eldar created it. Especially when it has been stated that the DE's are much less debauched than there ancestors who created Slaanesh. Even the though of comparing what a DE considers debauchery to what a Noise Marine considers debauchery is laughable.

Okay, now you made me really curious. What do the Noise Marines do, then?

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Except that that reasoning doesn't work for Dark Eldar. They aren't just humans with a penchant for rape and torture. It's an inherent thirst where they can feel Slaanesh reaching for them. And they aren't vampires. They were never human. They don't have a scale of right and wrong to even begin to approach that kind of idea. They don't feel bad about what they do. Especially when it comes to humans. Humans are food. Little mayfly lives running around pretending to have meaning and impact. They literally feed off of their pain and fear and have done so for centuries. Millennia. From the time theyr were children.

How do you feel bad about that?

I know it'd be unusual... Still, as long as there's sentience, there's potential for self-examination and growth.

And I'd like to note that there are people who *are* feeling bad about killing flies.

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Write these stories if you want to. It's not like I'd be your partner. It has been established that the people on Elliquiy have very different opinions on what is good about 40K and what is bad about it from the vast majority of people who like the setting. Citing that Dark Eldar and Tombcrons are two of the least popular armies in 40K. DE's being the single least popular. So I know my tastes in the setting are not compatible with anyone here. Which is a shame because the writers here are much better than the ones on RPOL. I am just stating why from canon perspective these ideas would not work and why they would throw off most fans of the setting.

I don't know, there seems to be a lot of DE-related material on DeviantArt and Youtube, for once. So, *somebody* likes them...

Offline deadmanshand

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #1370 on: June 14, 2015, 03:29:15 PM »
Well, considering that S&M and body modification are *the core* of Hellraiser, I'd say there's a lot of relation, actually... Seriously, Haemonculi and Wracks? They are the Cenobites gone sci-fi.

And Mandrakes are just your basic horror movie slashers...

Actually, they don't necessarily wear leather... And they don't worship Slaanesh.

No there isn't. Neither of those are Cenobites. They are base level sadists with a fetish for body modification. The Cenobites are so much more than that. Seriously have you even read the Hellbound Heart or the Scarlet Gospels? The Cenobites are the Theologians of the Order of the Gash. Explorers in the furthest reaches of sensation. They are about so much more than S&M and body modding. The book and the movies are not built around those concepts. They are built excess and passion and the lengths that one goes to achieve those.

'Cause horror movies slashers are so interesting.

And I never said they worship Slaanesh. I said they are Slaanesh cultist wannabes. Big difference.

Well, if you ask me, only the "chemically neutered" part seems like a real obstacle. The rest is... probability. It just takes *one* Space Marine that isn't *completely* xenos-hating and one xeno that is capable for feeling something else than bloodlust. And I'd argue that the DE *can* feel other emotions - they aren't Daleks, who had every emotion other than hate bred out of them...

As I said, people play around with Jedi x Sith pairings, which may be similarly improbable. And how many angel x demon pairings are there? Not only here on E, but in published fiction (for instance, Garth Ennis wrote that very pairing into two separate, critically-acclaimed comic series...)

You will not find a single Space Marine like that in Deathwatch. At all. It is a group you go to if you hate xenos to the point of wanting to exterminate them. And you will not find a Dark Eldar with anything approaching the emotions necessary to do this. The best a human - even a Marine - would be to them is a toy. DE's aren't bloodthirsty humans. They are aliens who can only barely relate to humans. World's different than a Jedi and a Sith getting together - which are just people from two different religious orders. Angels and demons are the same thing. Two similar beings on two different sides of a war.

DE's and humans is much closer to a love affair between a man and a cow. They have as much in common. The human will outlive, out think, and eventually kill and eat the cow.

WH40 Rulebook, page 28: "If you want your Astra Militarum Psyker to summon a new unit of Daemons during the game, then it's fine, although the Psyker in question might have some explaining to do after the battle (...) If, for example, the Inquisitor in your narrative is harnessing forbidden knowledge to further his cause, you and your opponent might agree before your game begins that it is perfectly appropriate for him to manifest Malefic powers."

Just saying :)

Go read more about the Inquisition and understand what happens next. The psyker and the Inquisitor are both put to death.

Okay, now you made me really curious. What do the Noise Marines do, then?

So you've been saying that Chaos worshippers have nothing on the DE but you don't know anything about the Chaos worshippers? Fantastic. Go look them up.

I know it'd be unusual... Still, as long as there's sentience, there's potential for self-examination and growth.

They aren't fucking human. They will never consider killing humans to be bad or wrong because they aren't fucking human. They literally do not have the capacity to give a shit about humans. They do not fall in love. Not even non-Dark Eldar do that (and I would still buy one of these ideas with them a thousand times before them with DE's). They don't have the function. They were literally made for war. That is the origin of the Eldar race. Genetically bred to not have compassion for the enemy. That is canon. They cannot feel that way about a human. At all. Because they can't feel that way about each other.

I don't know, there seems to be a lot of DE-related material on DeviantArt and Youtube, for once. So, *somebody* likes them...

A small number of loyal fans does not make up for the fact that it is the lowest selling and least played major faction in the game. Everyone who likes them likes them because they are S&M Space Elves. I wish people would just be honest about this instead of trying to say that they have a great story or are just really, really badass ...because they don't and they aren't. They are a cheap attempt to be edgy and sexy. That's it. No meat to their fluff at all. Not a single interesting character for them.

Offline BeorningTopic starter

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #1371 on: June 14, 2015, 04:15:59 PM »
No there isn't. Neither of those are Cenobites. They are base level sadists with a fetish for body modification. The Cenobites are so much more than that. Seriously have you even read the Hellbound Heart or the Scarlet Gospels? The Cenobites are the Theologians of the Order of the Gash. Explorers in the furthest reaches of sensation. They are about so much more than S&M and body modding. The book and the movies are not built around those concepts. They are built excess and passion and the lengths that one goes to achieve those.

And the DE are *not* about excess and passion? As for the Cenobites, they do explore sensation through body modification. I haven't read the original novella, but other material from that setting makes it pretty clear. The Cenobites craft and modify their bodies, just like the Haemonculi do.

Of course, they aren't exactly the same, but I think that the inspiration is pretty clear.

Quote
'Cause horror movies slashers are so interesting.

They can be. Especially if they are female!  ;)

And Mandrakes are, for me, slashers of the interesting variety. The descriptions of them in the codex are pretty stimulating to the imagination. If I was to run a Dark Heresy game, I'd definitely use this guys in some adventure...

Quote
You will not find a single Space Marine like that in Deathwatch. At all. It is a group you go to if you hate xenos to the point of wanting to exterminate them. And you will not find a Dark Eldar with anything approaching the emotions necessary to do this. The best a human - even a Marine - would be to them is a toy. DE's aren't bloodthirsty humans. They are aliens who can only barely relate to humans.

In some circumstances, "barely" could suffice... ;)

As for Deathwatch - okay, then swap it with some other SM chapter...

Quote
World's different than a Jedi and a Sith getting together - which are just people from two different religious orders. Angels and demons are the same thing. Two similar beings on two different sides of a war.

The Jedi and the Sith hate each other, though - not to mention, the Sith are corrupted by the dark side of the Force... As for angels and demons being similar - that really... depends. During his run on Hellblazer, Ennis had his succubus character declare that she loved stuff like torture etc. How's that in any way similar to any angel?

Quote
DE's and humans is much closer to a love affair between a man and a cow. They have as much in common. The human will outlive, out think, and eventually kill and eat the cow.

Now that's just what a relationship between a vampire and a human is. And still, there are so many vampire x human pairings...

Quote
Go read more about the Inquisition and understand what happens next. The psyker and the Inquisitor are both put to death.

The psyker? True. But an influential Inquisitor could do such stuff and get away with it. Of course, many other Inquisitors would try hunting him down, but he *could* survive. My reading of Dark Heresy is that these guys can be very resourceful and hard to put down, even if they clearly go rogue.

Quote
So you've been saying that Chaos worshippers have nothing on the DE but you don't know anything about the Chaos worshippers? Fantastic. Go look them up.

I've been doing some reading on Chaos, but I don't know everything. That's why I asked. You could help broaden my knowledge :)

Quote
They aren't fucking human. They will never consider killing humans to be bad or wrong because they aren't fucking human. They literally do not have the capacity to give a shit about humans. They do not fall in love. Not even non-Dark Eldar do that (and I would still buy one of these ideas with them a thousand times before them with DE's). They don't have the function. They were literally made for war. That is the origin of the Eldar race. Genetically bred to not have compassion for the enemy. That is canon. They cannot feel that way about a human. At all. Because they can't feel that way about each other.

And yet, Vect and Lelith Hesperax seem to be very fond of each other, even though the millenia pass... So, they feel *something*.

Quote
A small number of loyal fans does not make up for the fact that it is the lowest selling and least played major faction in the game. Everyone who likes them likes them because they are S&M Space Elves. I wish people would just be honest about this instead of trying to say that they have a great story or are just really, really badass ...because they don't and they aren't. They are a cheap attempt to be edgy and sexy. That's it. No meat to their fluff at all. Not a single interesting character for them.

Now you're making some very big generalizations.

I like the DE, because I think that their models look interesting and aesthetically pleasing. They have a nice selection of units that capture my imagination and that are diverse enough to make army-building interesting. Also, they are one of few WH40K armies that have a good quota of female models, which is, personally, quite important to me. Finally, I find their fluff engaging - reading the new codex was very... inspiring.

So... no, I don't like the DE for being S&M Space Elves. I like them, as they appeal to me as a horror fan.
« Last Edit: June 14, 2015, 04:20:38 PM by Beorning »

Offline deadmanshand

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #1372 on: June 14, 2015, 04:51:07 PM »
And the DE are *not* about excess and passion? As for the Cenobites, they do explore sensation through body modification. I haven't read the original novella, but other material from that setting makes it pretty clear. The Cenobites craft and modify their bodies, just like the Haemonculi do.

Of course, they aren't exactly the same, but I think that the inspiration is pretty clear.

They took superficial inspiration from Hellraiser. They didn't take inspiration from any of the parts of them that make them interesting. If you had read the Hellbound Heart or the comics or anything besides watched the movie you would understand this. As it is you arguing something with me that I know inside and out when you have seen pictures of it.

They can be. Especially if they are female!  ;)

And Mandrakes are, for me, slashers of the interesting variety. The descriptions of them in the codex are pretty stimulating to the imagination. If I was to run a Dark Heresy game, I'd definitely use this guys in some adventure...

Not a single horror movie slasher has ever been interesting. If you think anything in the Dark Eldar codex is stimulating then we have very different meanings for the word.

As for Deathwatch - okay, then swap it with some other SM chapter...

And you don't even know that the Deathwatch aren't a chapter...

The Jedi and the Sith hate each other, though - not to mention, the Sith are corrupted by the dark side of the Force... As for angels and demons being similar - that really... depends. During his run on Hellblazer, Ennis had his succubus character declare that she loved stuff like torture etc. How's that in any way similar to any angel?

Jedi aren't allowed to hate or love anyone. Both are against their code. Sith aren't corrupted because they are Sith. They are corrupted by what they do with the Force. Canon has good Sith. But at the core of it both are fundamentally human. They are just members of an order. The fact that you cannot understand that the situation is radically different is baffling.

Angels and demons biblically are the same kind of creature. Their hobbies don't change the fact that they are the same fucking species. That is how a succubus is similar to an angel. Especially in Ennis' run on Hellblazer.

Now that's just what a relationship between a vampire and a human is. And still, there are so many vampire x human pairings...

With one huge, monumental fucking difference. The vampire started off as human. However old he gets he started off as the same thing. A DE has nothing in common with a human. At all. No shared emotions. They feel nothing humans feel. They are called alien and inhuman for more reasons than their biology.

The psyker? True. But an influential Inquisitor could do such stuff and get away with it. Of course, many other Inquisitors would try hunting him down, but he *could* survive. My reading of Dark Heresy is that these guys can be very resourceful and hard to put down, even if they clearly go rogue.

No they can't. Your own statement says that if they do it they go rogue and are hunted down. Try not to contradict your own arguments.

I've been doing some reading on Chaos, but I don't know everything. That's why I asked. You could help broaden my knowledge :)

All I've been doing is broadening your knowledge. This one you are just gonna have to read for yourself.

And yet, Vect and Lelith Hesperax seem to be very fond of each other, even though the millenia pass... So, they feel *something*.

Feeling something is not the same as feeliing love.

Now you're making some very big generalizations.

I like the DE, because I think that their models look interesting and aesthetically pleasing. They have a nice selection of units that capture my imagination and that are diverse enough to make army-building interesting. Also, they are one of few WH40K armies that have a good quota of female models, which is, personally, quite important to me. Finally, I find their fluff engaging - reading the new codex was very... inspiring.

So... no, I don't like the DE for being S&M Space Elves. I like them, as they appeal to me as a horror fan.

I made generalizations based off playing and following the game for 20 years. Based off of experience and an immense amount of interaction with the community. Army building for them is pointless because they have the fewest options and the weakest units. There is a reason no one plays them. So you like them because they are pretty and they have "inspiring" fluff about how evil they are?

Sounds like you like them because they are S&M Space Elves to me. I don't see what part of them appeals to a horror fan.

And this is my last fucking post in this thread. I don't know why I bother looking at it when it pops up. Does anyone know how to not make a thread show up on your Show New Replies To Your Posts page?
« Last Edit: June 14, 2015, 05:11:01 PM by deadmanshand »

Offline BeorningTopic starter

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #1373 on: June 14, 2015, 05:10:53 PM »
Hm. I guess it'd be best for me to drop this discussion, DMH... *backs off politely*

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Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #1374 on: June 14, 2015, 05:33:47 PM »
And I think it's time to take a chill-pill here.  There are ways to make your points without resorting to incivility.

Does anyone know how to not make a thread show up on your Show New Replies To Your Posts page?

At present, there is not a way to remove threads from that page.  When I find a thread that I no longer wish to participate in, I simply don't read it.  Once you've read all the 'new posts' on that particular page, you can always select 'Mark all messages as read' and clear all the ones you're no longer interested in following.