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Author Topic: WH40000 - what's your opinion?  (Read 53081 times)

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Offline CountessJess

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #1325 on: June 02, 2015, 05:05:43 PM »
Trying to play WAAC with 40k is an exercise in madness, anyway.

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Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #1326 on: June 02, 2015, 05:50:06 PM »
Its a good part of the reason I don't go to tournaments.

I'd much rather play Kill Team, or run something like the Horus Heresy campaign from those books, or redo the 13th Black Crusade or something. Something with an actual story and a point :)

Offline BeorningTopic starter

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #1327 on: June 03, 2015, 10:14:22 AM »
What's a WAAC?

BTW. Does any of you know some webpages with painting guides? I'd really like to try becoming a better painter...

Oniya once directed me to an awesome guide for painting flames... I could use more of such stuff.
« Last Edit: June 03, 2015, 10:19:09 AM by Beorning »

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Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #1328 on: June 03, 2015, 01:19:27 PM »
WAAC = Win At Any Cost / Win At All Costs

The list that I saw take the last tournament I played in was a Chaos / Necron 'Alliance' that had 3 helturkeys (pre nerf) and 3 necron fliers, a couple of minimum sized troops and I think a winged Greater deamon.

It's the same kind of mentality that will field 2 flying Hive Tyrants in a 1000 point game (something else I faced back around that time).

Offline Kevben Battleheart

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #1329 on: June 03, 2015, 05:28:51 PM »
It's the same kind of mentality that will field 2 flying Hive Tyrants in a 1000 point game (something else I faced back around that time).
I really hate the Flyrant. My brother runs a Nid army and he fields that with a bunch of Biovores, a Exocrine and that Spore they have with a bunch of Devilgaunts (I think is what they were called?) and a few other units he tends to swap out. It's probably an easy to beat list, I just play too defensively to actually beat it lol.

Offline BeorningTopic starter

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #1330 on: June 03, 2015, 05:45:16 PM »
WAAC = Win At Any Cost / Win At All Costs

The list that I saw take the last tournament I played in was a Chaos / Necron 'Alliance' that had 3 helturkeys (pre nerf) and 3 necron fliers, a couple of minimum sized troops and I think a winged Greater deamon.

It's the same kind of mentality that will field 2 flying Hive Tyrants in a 1000 point game (something else I faced back around that time).

I can see why that would be annoying...

As we're speaking of battles, I was wondering lately: let's say we have two players and two armies. We put these armies on the kitchen table and... what then? How do we make the battle interesting / engaging, instead of all units just crashing together into one big pile-up resolved by rolls?

BTW. I started painting my first Seraphim today...
« Last Edit: June 03, 2015, 05:49:43 PM by Beorning »

Offline consortium11

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #1331 on: June 03, 2015, 06:01:20 PM »
I think my favourite WAAC/beardy tactic was back in the day in Fantasy Battle.

Champion (i.e. mid level hero) + Pegasus (or any other cheap flying mount) + Heart of Woe (when he died he exploded with damage and range determined by his strength) + Potion of Strength (bonus strength for one turn). Turn one fly into the air (at the time flying meant to went off the board for a turn and then reappeared anywhere you wanted), turn 2 land and challenge the opponents most dangerous unit (i.e. have one on one combat), if they accepted you likely died, if they did they suffered negative effects and you then used your own magic to kill the character. Result? Nuclear bomb in the middle of the opposition army, likely killing the majority of it on turn two.

In fact Fantasy Battle used to be so easy to abuse. Cockatrice's were cheap mounts that turned people to stone (i.e died) if they failed an initiative check without any other saves allowed. They were also cheap mounts for hero characters. Buy about seven, turn one fly, turn two land and turn about a third of their army (or more) to stone, turn three repeat etc etc etc. Or an all flying army... turn one fly, all other turns stay in the air, last turn land and steal as many victory points as you can without the opponent really being able to respond. Or the old Goblin army which basically consisted of nothing but pump wagons and simply ran over the enemy on turn one. Hell, if I recall correctly there was a banner which made the unit carrying it invulnerable to magic and neutralised any magic items from anyone touching the model (so magic weapons would stop working). Combine that with Wraiths (an undead unit that was immune to non-magic weapons, couldn't flee etc etc) and a badass mounted vampire to solo kill any one with magic weapons who managed to avoid touching the standard bearer (for super beardy tactics you could equip him with a weapon that disables magic items in contact with him) and you had an almost literally invincible block to hurl into the middle of the opponent's lines.

It's actually somewhat amazing that any balanced games of FB happened with the amount of cheese one could use.

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Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #1332 on: June 03, 2015, 06:30:14 PM »
Ever seen the Realms of Chaos books, Slaves to Darkness and The Lost and the Damned? Would have been about 3rd ed of WFB. The Bloodthirster used to have demonic pacts where it could call on other demons, and summon them into the fight. And it's axe contained another Bloodthirster that could be released in battle.

My favourite though was the Khornate reward of Technology. I had my Lord of Khorne on a griffin .. with a multimelta. 3" blast radius, strength 9, 36" range, give or take. You're at long range, behind hard cover, I'm still hitting you on a 2. And killing every model in your unit on 2s as well.

He also had 3 dark elf followers with heavy bolters, which back then had following fire. If you scored a hit, you got to roll again, and again and again, til you missed.

That being said, he also had an obesely fat dark elf assassin (half speed and initiative), a Minotaur with Cowardice (which worked by the number of models in the opposing unit, regardless of what they were .. one 1dragon, easy ... 3 goblins, erm, not so sure about this, boss) and to crown it all off, a Champion of Khorne who received the reward Fear of Blood. For every wound taken with 2" he had to make a cool check, or faint. He'd go berserk, charge into combat, slaughter all round him, see the blood, scream like a little girl and pass out.

Very entertaining, very silly in places, and the only fair fight for a Realms of Chaos chaos army was another Realms of Chaos chaos army. It did have some fantastic fluff though. :)

Offline consortium11

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #1333 on: June 03, 2015, 06:54:14 PM »
I think those were before my time; I really got into 40K with Second Edition and FB with fifth edition and then dropped out again around the time the Tau came out; Third Edition 40K was toned down and simplified far too much for my liking and I largely lost interest.

5th edition Dwarf volley guns deserve a mention in the FB cheese stakes as well. Dirt cheap and each could fire as five small cannons. Yes, they officially only had a 24 inch range but because of the artillery rules back in the day the shots could not only go further on random rolls but also bounced and so could easily travel twice that. Have 10 of them plunked in your army. On turn one that's 50 cannonballs hitting the opposition, bouncing through units, destroying pretty much any characters that aren't parts of units and generally laying waste to everything. If that doesn't work then you need a turn to reload and then you can do it again. Scared of the enemy getting too close by the third turn? Pick four or five tiny units of Trollslayers (can't be broken) and use them to tie up the enemy and then shoot them in the back with your cannon barrage again.

Offline TheGlyphstone

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #1334 on: June 03, 2015, 07:01:28 PM »
I remember the pinnacle of cheese in 4th or 5th ed Fantasy being mass Ratling Gun spam with Slaves as tarpit blocks, just hosing your opponent (and your own units) down with ridiculous numbers of shots.

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Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #1335 on: June 03, 2015, 10:08:52 PM »
My favourite though was the Khornate reward of Technology. I had my Lord of Khorne on a griffin .. with a multimelta. 3" blast radius, strength 9, 36" range, give or take. You're at long range, behind hard cover, I'm still hitting you on a 2. And killing every model in your unit on 2s as well.

He also had 3 dark elf followers with heavy bolters, which back then had following fire. If you scored a hit, you got to roll again, and again and again, til you missed.

That being said, he also had an obesely fat dark elf assassin (half speed and initiative), a Minotaur with Cowardice (which worked by the number of models in the opposing unit, regardless of what they were .. one 1dragon, easy ... 3 goblins, erm, not so sure about this, boss) and to crown it all off, a Champion of Khorne who received the reward Fear of Blood. For every wound taken with 2" he had to make a cool check, or faint. He'd go berserk, charge into combat, slaughter all round him, see the blood, scream like a little girl and pass out.

The cat is now looking at me funny.  That's brilliant!

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Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #1336 on: June 05, 2015, 08:19:47 AM »
The cat is now looking at me funny.  That's brilliant!

d1000 tables for mutations could make for some rather interesting results :)

Offline BeorningTopic starter

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #1337 on: June 05, 2015, 10:20:44 AM »
A funny thing happened today at work...

We're not having much to do lately, so we (meaning, the people from my team) keep bringing books to read while waiting for phonecalls. Lately, I keep bringing the WH40K rulebook - I made a resolution to finally read it and make some solid notes on the rules. So, today, I keep reading it... and my manager spotted it.

"What are you reading?", he asked.
"Warhammer", I replied, fully expecting to be met with confusion.
"Ah, yes", the manager said causally, "I've played Fantasy Battle for years. I've been meaning to switch to 40K for some time. I'll be collecting the Imperial Guard..."

My jaw kind of dropped :)

The second time my jaw dropped when he complained that painting an army takes "a lot of time" for him. "About 1 hour a model", he said, "When I use only basic shading, that is."

I mean, I don't do any shading at all and, still, painting a model takes me three times as long!  ::)

BTW. I was reading the Assault Phase's rules today... they kind of made my mind blow. It's all so complicated!  :o

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Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #1338 on: June 05, 2015, 10:57:40 AM »
Painting is one of those things that the more you do, the more tricks you'll pick up, and the better you'll get. I don't think of myself as anything more than a tabletop standard painter, and in all honesty, that's good enough for me. For me, writing, converting and the gaming itself is of far more interest than painting.

Best way to work out the assault rules is to do it. Take two small squads of your basic troops and run through a few assaults with them. Get a feel for each step and it should help clear things up for you.

Offline consortium11

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #1339 on: June 05, 2015, 10:58:26 AM »
BTW. I was reading the Assault Phase's rules today... they kind of made my mind blow. It's all so complicated!  :o

Believe it or not the 40K rules have actually been massively simplified over the years. I never really played Rogue Trader so I can't attest to how complex that was but Second Edition was exponentially more detailed and involved then at least third and seemingly everything that's come after.

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Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #1340 on: June 05, 2015, 11:10:18 AM »
Rogue Trader was almost as much roleplaying game as wargame in some places.

2nd ed was a lot more complex, that's true. Games took longer, but weapons were far more individual. There were pros and cons to taking a chainsword over a chainaxe, for example.

3rd changed the overall rules a LOT, and there were a lot of complains that the game was dumbed down at that point.

The basic rules have stayed fairly similar from 3rd ed through to present, though obviously they get revised here and there with each new edition. Some rules I like, some I don't, and there are things I think could be done different or better (at least better by how I would judge it :) ).

I've occasionally toyed with the idea of doing up my own ruleset for 40k, but I normally limit myself to rewriting the Chaos dex to make it what I think it should be :)

Offline BeorningTopic starter

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #1341 on: June 05, 2015, 11:45:46 AM »
Painting is one of those things that the more you do, the more tricks you'll pick up, and the better you'll get.

*shakes Hairy*

Give up all your tricks! I need them!!!!

Quote
Best way to work out the assault rules is to do it. Take two small squads of your basic troops and run through a few assaults with them. Get a feel for each step and it should help clear things up for you.

Hm. Good idea... although I don't a single squad ready yet. But I can some simulation with coins...

The basic rules have stayed fairly similar from 3rd ed through to present, though obviously they get revised here and there with each new edition. Some rules I like, some I don't, and there are things I think could be done different or better (at least better by how I would judge it :) ).

One thing I don't understand is why, when attacking a unit, it's the unit's most common T that's taken into consideration? It means that you might have a powerful character with very high T, who gets wounded nevertheless, because he's a part of a unit with many weak soldiers. It's counterintuitive...

Also, I admit that I have no idea what "Consolidation" is supposed to be...

Offline TheGlyphstone

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #1342 on: June 05, 2015, 11:47:00 AM »
A funny thing happened today at work...

We're not having much to do lately, so we (meaning, the people from my team) keep bringing books to read while waiting for phonecalls. Lately, I keep bringing the WH40K rulebook - I made a resolution to finally read it and make some solid notes on the rules. So, today, I keep reading it... and my manager spotted it.

"What are you reading?", he asked.
"Warhammer", I replied, fully expecting to be met with confusion.
"Ah, yes", the manager said causally, "I've played Fantasy Battle for years. I've been meaning to switch to 40K for some time. I'll be collecting the Imperial Guard..."

My jaw kind of dropped :)

The second time my jaw dropped when he complained that painting an army takes "a lot of time" for him. "About 1 hour a model", he said, "When I use only basic shading, that is."

I mean, I don't do any shading at all and, still, painting a model takes me three times as long!  ::)

BTW. I was reading the Assault Phase's rules today... they kind of made my mind blow. It's all so complicated!  :o


Nerds...they're all around us...they look just like everyone else...and some of them...they post here...

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Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #1343 on: June 05, 2015, 12:23:16 PM »
*shakes Hairy*

Give up all your tricks! I need them!!!!

The main thing I have for speeding up my painting is something of an assembly line approach.

Let's say I'm going to paint up a new squad for my Night Lords.

Omega Claw are a last chance unit. All the members came from other Claws, did something to screw up really badly, and now they all bear the red guantlets that mark a condemned marine. They always get the nastiest missions, the ones with the words odds of survival, but through luck, skill and an inordinate ammount of dirty tricks, they keep coming through.

Leader has a Nostramoan chainglaive, and a bolt pistol.
One marine has a missile launcher
One has a combi weapon (which I'll use in a 'counts as' as flamer, meltagun, plasmagun, or whatever I need it to)
The remainder are armed with with bolters, bolt pistols, and close combat weapons, so some combination there of.

First step, undercoating. Spray everything black, let them sit til they're dry.
Next up, base colour. Use a larger brush and get the base colour on the armour. I'm not overly worried at this point about it going on the weapons and such, as those will be painted over anyway.
I'll work through the entire squad doing the base colour, so by the time I'm done with the last model the first one will probably be ready for the next bit of work.
Let's say the next colour I decide to use is red. This will go on the gauntlets, the wings of the shoulder pads insignia, and the helmet eyepieces. Again, I work through the whole squad.
Next, bone. This will go on the insignia and will be used on the helmets, either marking the skull helms from the terror squads or being used to create a skull like appearance on the other helmets. If there are any skull trophies on the models, they get done here.
Next up, metal. Weapons and grenades, stuff like that.
That's probably most of the work done. At this point I'd go back over the models, see where I've painted too far, gotten one colour where it isn't supposed to go, and touch them up.
Lastly, try and do a few lightning effects on the larger armour pieces. A bright blue, jagged line or two. Once that dries a bit, a finer white line down the middle of it.

Rather than working on a single model, I'm working a bunch in sequence, doing the same painting (more or less) on each as I go.

It's not going to win me any Golden Deamons, but it's good enough to put on the table when I'm finished :)

Hm. Good idea... although I don't a single squad ready yet. But I can some simulation with coins...

Yep. Or anything else you have handy.

One thing I don't understand is why, when attacking a unit, it's the unit's most common T that's taken into consideration? It means that you might have a powerful character with very high T, who gets wounded nevertheless, because he's a part of a unit with many weak soldiers. It's counterintuitive...

Honestly I'd need to sit down with the rules myself before I got into that with you. I haven't played a lot of the current edition. Generally speaking though, an entire squad will have the same toughness in the vast majority of cases, so it shouldn't come up all that often.

Also, I admit that I have no idea what "Consolidation" is supposed to be...

A follow up move. You've just lopped one guys head off, you need to move a few feet along to get to the next one.

Offline TheGlyphstone

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #1344 on: June 05, 2015, 12:27:34 PM »
Or for a more literal interpretation, the idea is that during a big melee, your squad gets all spread out while it's mixing it up in a gigantic confused fight with the bad guys (this is 40K, they're not literally lining up to receive a charge like medieval infantry). So after you win (or escape a loss), your squad needs to consolidate, get back into a coherent group before you engage a new target.

Offline BeorningTopic starter

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #1345 on: June 05, 2015, 03:11:27 PM »
Thanks for the painting advice, Hairy :) Although I can't do this assembly line approach currently, as my Sisters don't have a unified colour scheme... I want each of them to be a unique combination of the Order colour scheme with hair, skin and weapon colours. But I might use this approach in the future for my Dark Eldar...

Regarding Consolidation: the rules state that it's a move in *any* direction. So, in theory, I could use it to spread my soldiers even further... *scratches head*

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Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #1346 on: June 05, 2015, 04:04:58 PM »
Towards or away from the enemy. Towards cover. The coherency rules mean you troops have to stick close to each other, so two widely separated groups could use that movement to get closer to each other and back into squad coherency again.

Offline TheGlyphstone

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #1347 on: June 05, 2015, 06:10:49 PM »
You can move in any direction, but the rules for Coherency prohibit you from voluntarily breaking coherency (it can be broken by enemy fire or an assault, for instance). So while you could spread them out further (which can be good if you're facing an enemy with lots of artillery), there is a limit on how far they can get from each other. They're still 'consolidating' in the sense of getting back into a recognizable group instead of chaotic individual fighters.

Offline BeorningTopic starter

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #1348 on: June 07, 2015, 06:28:08 AM »
I see. Thanks :)

Meanwhile... the Seraphim is ready:




I'd risk saying that it's the best mini I've painted so far, at least when it comes to it not having any obvious errors, imprecisely painted places. Although the face is still a nightmare and I still don't know why my minis don't look so smooth as other people's...

Anyway - seven done, thirty to go! Not counting the DEs, which I haven't bought yet...

Offline CountessJess

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #1349 on: June 07, 2015, 06:46:15 AM »
I see. Thanks :)

Meanwhile... the Seraphim is ready:




I'd risk saying that it's the best mini I've painted so far, at least when it comes to it not having any obvious errors, imprecisely painted places. Although the face is still a nightmare and I still don't know why my minis don't look so smooth as other people's...

Anyway - seven done, thirty to go! Not counting the DEs, which I haven't bought yet...

Try thinning your paints. It's a meme in some parts, but I think that's actually would help your painting. Mix around 75% paint and 25% water; it's a consistency that works best for me. It'll make your paint much more smooth.