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The Elliquian Herald & Post
Issue 74 (Autumn) ~ August thru October 2017

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Author Topic: WH40000 - what's your opinion?  (Read 88559 times)

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Online HairyHeretic

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Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #1150 on: May 05, 2015, 06:42:34 PM »

Offline deadmanshand

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #1151 on: May 05, 2015, 06:46:15 PM »
He wrote the Newcrons, and I will defend them to the death as vastly superior to Oldcrons, as a Necron player since their WD article. I won't try to defend any of his other 40K creations.

And the Newcrons are why I hate him so.

Online HairyHeretic

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Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #1152 on: May 05, 2015, 06:50:36 PM »
The Newcrons I don't particularly care about one way or the other. The Grey Knights acting worst than a bunch of World Eaters, the BA-Necron bro-fist moment and the whole 'every marine wants to be a Smurf' are far worse abuses of the lore in my opinion.

Offline TheGlyphstone

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #1153 on: May 05, 2015, 06:58:05 PM »
And the Newcrons are why I hate him so.

Trollzyn and Zandrekh 4 Life, yo.

Offline deadmanshand

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #1154 on: May 05, 2015, 07:36:51 PM »
Old school Necrons were - and still are - my favorites. I liked the faceless alien doom carrying out the will of star gods so much more than the Tomb Kings n Space. More thematic and more in keeping with the tone of Warhammer 40K in my opinion.

Offline TheGlyphstone

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #1155 on: May 05, 2015, 07:48:34 PM »
Whereas I felt that the Tyranids occupied that thematic design space first and better, as faceless alien dooms go - all the Necrons had going for them was 'but this faceless alien doom is also ROBOTS!!!111'. Even for a setting like 40K where an apocalyptic threat lurks behind every corner, the Necrons just had nothing interesting or unique going for them, and even their 'gods' were singularly unimpressive. Now they're Tomb Kings IN SPACE, like the Eldar are High Elves IN SPACE, the Dark Eldar are Dark Elves IN SPACE, the Orks are...Orcs IN SPACE, the Squats are Dwarves IN SPACE eaten by Tyranids, so hardly unprecedented or out of place.

...didn't we have this exact arguement like 10 pages ago upthread, anyways?

Offline deadmanshand

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #1156 on: May 05, 2015, 08:04:00 PM »
We did. It's not an argument I have any interest in rehashing.

Offline Inkidu

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Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #1157 on: May 05, 2015, 08:33:53 PM »
Since THQ folded it seems like Games Workshop is passing out the 40K license like candy. Warhammer 40K Regicide looks pretty good and it's only 12 bucks. It is early access, but it looks strong.

Offline BeorningTopic starter

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #1158 on: May 06, 2015, 03:52:37 PM »
Haven't been paying much attention to 2nd ed DH. I did get a game of 1st ed though, a VOIP one with some of the guys in my Planetside outfit. We learned that walking into plasmagun fire is Not A Good Thing, and our Arbitor may be looking at a new set of bionic legs to go with her bionic arm. At this rate she'll have more augments than the Tech Priest soon. 3 of the 5 characters got set on fire, my Adept had a read of a very interesting book on deamonology and has gone slightly more insane than he already is :)

Maybe you should pay more attention to DH 2E, then, as I'm reading the book right now :) Maybe, then, I'll run a DH game here on the forums... I mean, there has to be some way to run an Elli game of WH40K that lasts! :)

On the other hand... I'm trying to come up with DH plots and I've run into a problem: in this game, there's no-one to root for. I mean, the setting has many opportunities for horror, with strange cults, mysterious aliens etc. The problem? The protagonists of this game are as dark as the threats they face. How to elicit horror from the characters, when it's the characters that kill people just for being different? When a solution to a threat may well be "burn the whole planet"?

Online Oniya

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #1159 on: May 06, 2015, 04:07:40 PM »
Judging from the popularity of shows like 'Hannibal' and games like World of Darkness, there's definitely a niche for it.  From my WoD table-top and LARP experience, the idea of 'this one's worse than any/all of us' is a good starting point.

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Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #1160 on: May 06, 2015, 04:12:07 PM »
Maybe you should pay more attention to DH 2E, then, as I'm reading the book right now :) Maybe, then, I'll run a DH game here on the forums... I mean, there has to be some way to run an Elli game of WH40K that lasts! :)

I'd be very happy to see one last :)

At the moment I'm playing a VoIP game with a handfull of the guys in my Planetside outfit. Two sessions so far (I had to miss the first). The lesson from the second session is that plasmaguns HURT. Our Arbitor took a round from one, almost killed, and looks like she may end up with bionic legs to go with her bionic arm.

On the other hand... I'm trying to come up with DH plots and I've run into a problem: in this game, there's no-one to root for. I mean, the setting has many opportunities for horror, with strange cults, mysterious aliens etc. The problem? The protagonists of this game are as dark as the threats they face. How to elicit horror from the characters, when it's the characters that kill people just for being different? When a solution to a threat may well be "burn the whole planet"?

Well, it may be that destroying the planet is actually a better outcome than what would happen if you didn't. 40k is dark, there's no two ways about that. But no matter how bad the PCs may be, what they're facing is worse (usually).

Offline TheGlyphstone

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #1161 on: May 06, 2015, 04:13:58 PM »
40K games on E seem to be cursed. Clearly the influence of Slaanesh at work.

Offline BeorningTopic starter

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #1162 on: May 06, 2015, 04:24:32 PM »
Judging from the popularity of shows like 'Hannibal' and games like World of Darkness, there's definitely a niche for it.  From my WoD table-top and LARP experience, the idea of 'this one's worse than any/all of us' is a good starting point.

Ha! That's one problem I have with WOD, actually. I like the setting, but playing stuff like their vampire games? It's a bit heady for me, as these games' protagonists are kind of bastards...

I admit that, out of the WOD games, I like the new Changeling the most, as the main characters aren't really monsters there... just traumatized humans. I also like the new Hunter - it's very dark and the heroes aren't necessarily innocent there... but the thing, it's kind of a deliberate theme there. "He who fights monsters may become a monster" etc. Meanwhile, in Dark Heresy, the heroes are expected to do awfully dark things... and it's actually presented as *good*.

At the moment I'm playing a VoIP game with a handfull of the guys in my Planetside outfit. Two sessions so far (I had to miss the first). The lesson from the second session is that plasmaguns HURT. Our Arbitor took a round from one, almost killed, and looks like she may end up with bionic legs to go with her bionic arm.

What's VoIP?

Quote
Well, it may be that destroying the planet is actually a better outcome than what would happen if you didn't. 40k is dark, there's no two ways about that. But no matter how bad the PCs may be, what they're facing is worse (usually).

See, I really have trouble wrapping my head around this kind of stories. They are too far removed from my personal attitudes...

40K games on E seem to be cursed. Clearly the influence of Slaanesh at work.

We need to break the curse, then!

Online eBadger

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #1163 on: May 06, 2015, 04:27:06 PM »
The problem? The protagonists of this game are as dark as the threats they face. How to elicit horror from the characters, when it's the characters that kill people just for being different? When a solution to a threat may well be "burn the whole planet"?

That's ultimately my issue with the 40k fluff.  There's only so much pointless butchery and evil that can be compounded before one just shrugs and loses interest in who wins. 

As for games...most of them on E seem rather cursed.  I'll never quite understand the culture of joining games just to leave them after two posts. 

Offline Inkidu

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Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #1164 on: May 06, 2015, 04:29:32 PM »
40K games on E seem to be cursed. Clearly the influence of Slaanesh at work.
I think it's the general lack of focus on any matter sexual or romantic in 40K that generally dooms them.

If not that, then it's probably the fact that it's got a dense lore and heavy emphasis on rules, even in their more general RP versions of the game.

Just conjecture on my part.


Should I blam myself now for heresy or will a commissar be along shortly?

EBadger: That's called darkness-induced audience apathy. You can only have so much bad crap piled on you before you just don't care.

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Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #1165 on: May 06, 2015, 04:35:19 PM »
What's VoIP?

Voice over IP. Like our Mumble server.

See, I really have trouble wrapping my head around this kind of stories. They are too far removed from my personal attitudes...

*chuckles* So are a lot of the stories I write on here. Part of the enjoyment of roleplaying is being something you're not.

Besides, the Acolytes don't have to be evil types. I think one of the themes of Dark Heresy is corruption ... the acolytes may start as puritans, full of the noblest intentions, but sooner or later, expediency intrudes. They have to make a literal deal with a devil to prevent something worse. And after that first time, it becomes easier to cross the line again. And again. And again. Then one day they look round, and its xenos tech and bound deamonhosts as far as the eyes can see :)

Think of it as the literal embodiment of that old saying about staring into the abyss.

We need to break the curse, then!

I'm always game.

Online eBadger

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #1166 on: May 06, 2015, 06:34:35 PM »
EBadger: That's called darkness-induced audience apathy. You can only have so much bad crap piled on you before you just don't care.

The interwebs provide: "You can't support any factions or hold on to any ideals after this effect has set in. All you can do is sit agape as the writers apparently attempt to outdo themselves at making the setting even worse and more unpleasant and more nihilistic."

That does actually sum up 40k quite nicely, yes. 

Offline Warlock

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #1167 on: May 07, 2015, 12:45:29 AM »
Should perhaps include more Orks in any given campaign as a comic relief? Think they're perhaps the only race that are actually happy, genuinely so, with the state of affairs as is in the WH40k universe, them and Tyranids that eagerly munch away at the Imperium.

Offline Inkidu

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Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #1168 on: May 07, 2015, 08:21:02 AM »
Should perhaps include more Orks in any given campaign as a comic relief? Think they're perhaps the only race that are actually happy, genuinely so, with the state of affairs as is in the WH40k universe, them and Tyranids that eagerly munch away at the Imperium.
Remember that orks are only funny from the player's perspective. In universe they're terrifying virus-like creatures that infest everything, kill everything, are big, strong, green monstrosities that warp the very fabric of reality.

There's an anecdote in one of the books where an imperial guard squad is pinned down by one flashgitz ork with a machine gun and when they finally kill it they look at it's gun and it's firing mechanism was in backwards. One of the guardsmen commented something to the effect of how insane and nigh on impossible it is to fight something like that.

They don't even need ammo if they're caught up in the moment, the ammo just manifests. 

Offline TheGlyphstone

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #1169 on: May 07, 2015, 09:18:26 AM »
Indeed. And their speech patterns are copied from British football hooligans, after all - for all intents and purposes gangs of violent thugs who nominally wreak havoc and/or riot to 'support' their team. That's not scary at all for anyone who actually lived through a football riot, from what I understand, and as with everything else in 40K, that gets turned up to 11.

The models don't show it well, but an Orc is supposed to be roughly the same height as a Space Marine when they're not hunched over. You've got a massive horde of eight foot tall green monsters who are nearly indestructible (they can canonically survive head transplants), utterly fearless, and capable of insane and bizarre things that defy reality as you know it. And once a planet has been attacked by Orks, even if the defenders win they will be fighting off periodic infestations of these horrors for the rest of time.

Offline Inkidu

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Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #1170 on: May 07, 2015, 09:45:18 AM »
Also note that while to us it sounds like hooligan talk, to the High/Low Gothic-speaking peoples of the IoM the pidgin of the Ork is nigh on incomprehensible, roaring guttering bastardization of civilized speech.

Offline BeorningTopic starter

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #1171 on: May 07, 2015, 03:35:51 PM »
I think it's the general lack of focus on any matter sexual or romantic in 40K that generally dooms them.

It's a possibility, yes... But there are a few of us here that are actually interested in non-erotic WH40K games. And we are, I think, relatively consistent players. So, I think that we might get together and make it work...

*chuckles* So are a lot of the stories I write on here. Part of the enjoyment of roleplaying is being something you're not.

Ah, but see: it's not about the characters being RPed, it's about the ethical foundations of the whole setting. I can stomach playing dark characters... but the thing is, it's the *setting* that's dark and poorly compatible with my moral convictions. It's not just that the Acolytes go around shooting people for being different... it's that the whole idea behind the setting is that they are *right* to do so.

Another problem I'm having: the setting is so dark that it's a bit hard for to see why heresy, Chaos etc. should be considered evil and dangerous. Yes, worshipping Chaos gods makes people insane, mutated and, overall, miserable. But... the lives of most of the people in this setting already *are* miserable. The Acolytes save humans from being killed or mutated by Chaos... only for these people to be killed or exploited in the name of Imperium instead. So... what's the point?

In other words: the Acolytes are supposed to be the bulwark between the darkness and the Imperial society. But the Imperial society is *awful*. So... it's a bit hard for me to root for the Acolytes...

Should perhaps include more Orks in any given campaign as a comic relief? Think they're perhaps the only race that are actually happy, genuinely so, with the state of affairs as is in the WH40k universe, them and Tyranids that eagerly munch away at the Imperium.

Meh. Personally speaking, Orks are funny, but they feel way too cartoony for me to include in a DH game...

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Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #1172 on: May 09, 2015, 06:29:45 AM »
The setting is one of extremes, though it does vary somewhat depending on the authors writing. See if you can get hold of Dan Abnetts Inquisiton books, the Eisenhorn and Ravenor trilogies. They might give you a good perspective both on Imperial life in general, and the Inquisition.

Offline Inkidu

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Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #1173 on: May 09, 2015, 03:29:36 PM »
Are there any books that detail the eras before The 41st Century? Like around the height of mankind, the Iron Men period? I know there's a whole Horus Heresy series that handles the Rise of the Emperor and all that, but I wonder how far back anyone actually bothered to go.

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Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #1174 on: May 09, 2015, 08:46:30 PM »
I can't think of anything that goes further back than the Horus Heresy.