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Author Topic: WH40000 - what's your opinion?  (Read 52935 times)

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Offline BeorningTopic starter

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #1125 on: April 21, 2015, 02:59:00 PM »
Thank you, Jess!

Two questions:

1. I know that the existence of Chaos is a secret. So, do average people in the Imperium know of the Warp, sorcerers etc.?

2. If they know of them, do they consider these things to be supernatural - or do they see them in scientific terms?

On another note: Enemies Within is oooooout! Now I'll be able to play a Sister in Dark Heresy 2E :)
« Last Edit: April 21, 2015, 03:11:24 PM by Beorning »

Online HairyHeretic

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Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #1126 on: April 21, 2015, 04:17:27 PM »
The average citizen might know of the warp as something ships pass through in order to move between planets. Knowledge about warp entities, daemons, would be known to those who travel but the average hive city worker drone might not.

Pretty much everything in the Imperium is seen in supernatural terms ;)

Online TheGlyphstone

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #1127 on: April 21, 2015, 04:25:03 PM »
The existence of Chaos is not a secret. Details about Chaos are secrets. Everyone in Imperium knows Chaos Exists, Chaos is Evil, and only The Emperor can protect you from Chaos if you serve him loyally.


Offline BeorningTopic starter

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #1128 on: April 22, 2015, 11:32:05 AM »
The existence of Chaos is not a secret. Details about Chaos are secrets. Everyone in Imperium knows Chaos Exists, Chaos is Evil, and only The Emperor can protect you from Chaos if you serve him loyally.

Waaaait. Back here, Hairy said:

Quote
A lot of people in the Imperium aren't happy with their lot. If they knew Chaos existed, some could consider that a viable alternative, and hence turn to it.

Furthermore, similar things are said both in the Dark Heresy rulebook and the WH40K rulebook...

Stop messing with me, guys :)

Offline CountessJess

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #1129 on: April 22, 2015, 12:55:32 PM »
Waaaait. Back here, Hairy said:

Furthermore, similar things are said both in the Dark Heresy rulebook and the WH40K rulebook...

Stop messing with me, guys :)

It varies from planet to planet. In places where they have to fight Chaos as an everyday matter, like Cadia, or Mordia, the citizens there all know Chaos, and Chaos cults pop up very often. In other places, like shrine worlds like Ophelia VIII, Chaos is a distant enemy that Imperial citizens know as the Most Evil Enemy that the Emperor protects them from. But information on Chaos is so restricted to the average Imperial citizen has very little understanding of what Chaos is. Whatever truth they know is mixed with exhortations from the local cathedral, stories swapped while working at the manufactorum, and so on. But I think Hairy's wrong - while many of the Imperium aren't the happiest with their life, it doesn't mean that they'll throw their lot in with Chaos the moment that they can. Chaos is a pretty brutal institution.

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Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #1130 on: April 22, 2015, 02:06:33 PM »
There's a difference between knowing the devil exists, and knowing just how to go about summoning him :)

Offline BeorningTopic starter

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #1131 on: April 22, 2015, 02:33:15 PM »
Waitwaitwait.

I just check the Dark Heresy rulebook and in the setting overview, it specifically describes the Chaos gods as "the dark secret man is not meant to know". A bit further, it describes how awful it is to the Ordo Mallues guys to actually know of the dangers of the Warp and of Chaos...

The book says that yes, the Ecclessiarchy warns against evil forces etc... but, in truth, an average priest doesn't really know what they are actually talking about...

Offline deadmanshand

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #1132 on: April 22, 2015, 02:38:44 PM »
The Imperium of Man is built upon ignorance and suppression of knowledge. Entire worlds have been wiped out because people saw a demon. 

Offline CountessJess

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #1133 on: April 22, 2015, 03:04:35 PM »
The Imperium of Man is built upon ignorance and suppression of knowledge. Entire worlds have been wiped out because people saw a demon. 

Considering that there have been daemonic outbreaks because some kid sneezes and Nurgle liked the sound of it (actual fluff, btw), I'd say that it's kinda understandable that the Imperium gets jumpy at the mention of some demons. I mean, I don't understand people who say that the Imperium of Man's ignorance and suppression of knowledge is wrong - this is a setting where daemons can take root if you literally feel too happy, and saying the names of daemons can cause actual physical pain. I think that's pretty good grounds for controlling such information.

Waitwaitwait.

I just check the Dark Heresy rulebook and in the setting overview, it specifically describes the Chaos gods as "the dark secret man is not meant to know". A bit further, it describes how awful it is to the Ordo Mallues guys to actually know of the dangers of the Warp and of Chaos...

The book says that yes, the Ecclessiarchy warns against evil forces etc... but, in truth, an average priest doesn't really know what they are actually talking about...

The truth is obfuscated and confused enough through layers of misinformation that the average imperial citizen or low ranking priest, or imperial guard junior officer just has to know that Chaos = Bad, which is kinda all they need to know to carry out their job without too much of a risk of demons appearing. People who actually have to punch daemons back into the warp, like the Ordo Malleus, or the Grey Knights, or guardsmen like Cadian Shock Troops who fight them on a regular basis know them a lot more intimately. And even so, they often get corrupted and fall - which is why it's awful to actually know the danger of the Warp and of Chaos, because you often get screwed over by daemons for that knowledge.

Except for Grey Knights, because they wear Sororitas hats and are So Pure.

Offline deadmanshand

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #1134 on: April 22, 2015, 03:07:58 PM »
Considering that there have been daemonic outbreaks because some kid sneezes and Nurgle liked the sound of it (actual fluff, btw), I'd say that it's kinda understandable that the Imperium gets jumpy at the mention of some demons. I mean, I don't understand people who say that the Imperium of Man's ignorance and suppression of knowledge is wrong - this is a setting where daemons can take root if you literally feel too happy, and saying the names of daemons can cause actual physical pain. I think that's pretty good grounds for controlling such information.

Never said it wasn't a good idea. I was just explaining in shorthand fashion.

Offline consortium11

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #1135 on: April 22, 2015, 06:31:51 PM »
So, while you weren't paying attention, Warhammer Fantasy Battle ended.

The result?
As you'd expect from GW related fluff Chaos won. Big ritual, entire world consumed, even the Chaos Gods eventually got bored and toddled off, a handful of people escaped to a new reality. Outside of that handful everyone died, normally in deeply silly and uninspiring ways.

So, in fluff terms that's it. The old FB universe is gone. It literally no longer exists.

Perhaps more interestingly it appears to be the end in crunch terms as well. While nothing has been confirmed most rumours point to any new version of FB being a skirmish level game featuring a lot less troops (and round bases) rather than the formation based (and square bases) version we all know. Again going by rumours the simple issue was the FB wasn't selling enough with only a couple of novels being profitable at all. FB always had higher costs associated with it than the already ruinously expensive 40K simply due to the scale; you can play small-scale games of 40k with 20-40 miniatures a side, 20-40 miniatures is generally one of two units in FB which certainly doesn't help but you have to wonder if it became a self-fulfilling prophecy; with lackluster updates and GW prioritizing 40K over FB is it surprising that people spent less money on FB?

Online TheGlyphstone

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #1136 on: April 22, 2015, 06:56:06 PM »
Wow, they actually did it. I didn't think they would seriously kill their 2nd flagship game line, though if the sales were as lackluster as you say, it makes more sense.

Offline CountessJess

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #1137 on: April 22, 2015, 06:58:11 PM »
It's a buildup to the new Total War: Warhammer that just got spoiled.

Offline consortium11

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #1138 on: April 22, 2015, 07:27:55 PM »
It's a buildup to the new Total War: Warhammer that just got spoiled.


That seems unlikely; End Times spoilers
The trailer explicitly shows Emperor Karl Franz (the guy riding a griffin with KF on his chestplate) while End Times is equally explicit that Karl Franz is dead; killed by a Nurgle worshiper and when "resurrected" it was actually Sigmar come back to life; Sigmar and the Chaos Gary Stu Archaon then do the old trope of wrestling each other and falling into a mystical rift.

Likewise Mannfred and the Vampire Counts are name dropped as a playable faction and their leader in the press releases. The Vampire Counts don't exist in the End Times (having been absorbed into the Undead Legion) while Mannfred basically threw a "why does no-one care about me!" strop and was directly responsible for efforts to save the world failing before being stabbed and incinerated shortly after. Both other named faction leaders (Grimgor for the Orcs/Goblins and Thorgrim for the Dwarfs) are explictly killed during the End Times

Offline CountessJess

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #1139 on: April 22, 2015, 07:34:37 PM »
*shrugs* I'm not familiar with Warhammer fluff, I just thought it would be logical that if a big name game series was trying to adopt the setting of a failing franchise, GW would wipe the slate clean to let Creative Assembly's design team work from scratch for a greater chance of success.

I'll take your word for it, whatever you think is more likely to be the case. I just like the Warhammer aesthete; never really got into the fluff.

Offline BeorningTopic starter

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #1140 on: April 23, 2015, 11:33:05 AM »
So, while you weren't paying attention, Warhammer Fantasy Battle ended.

The result?
As you'd expect from GW related fluff Chaos won. Big ritual, entire world consumed, even the Chaos Gods eventually got bored and toddled off, a handful of people escaped to a new reality. Outside of that handful everyone died, normally in deeply silly and uninspiring ways.

So, in fluff terms that's it. The old FB universe is gone. It literally no longer exists.

Out of curiosity, where can one read the story of what happened? Was it published as some sort of novel or supplement?

Anyway... kind of sucks to be a WFB player, I guess. I especially feel it for these new guys who started collecting the game recently... I'm sure people like that exist. They must be pissed off right now...

Also, I'm wondering... WFB ended. The Tolkien game will probably end sometime in the future, considering that Jackson finished his second trilogy. So... does that leave GW only with WH40K? It looks kind of sad...

Offline consortium11

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #1141 on: April 23, 2015, 12:41:49 PM »
Out of curiosity, where can one read the story of what happened? Was it published as some sort of novel or supplement?

For a brief overview one can look at the Warhammer Wiki or, for a more humorous/meme-based overview check out the 1d4Chan wiki.

The End Times was officially released in a series of 10 book (Nagash 1 and 2, Glottkin 1 and 2, Khaine 1 and 2, Thanquol 1 and 2 and Archaon 1 and 2). The odd numbers are fluff books telling the story, the even numbers deal with the crunch. In addition I believe existing novel series are tied in... think of it largely like the big comic events we get each summer where there's a "core book" that deals with the main plot and other titles do tie-ins.

Anyway... kind of sucks to be a WFB player, I guess. I especially feel it for these new guys who started collecting the game recently... I'm sure people like that exist. They must be pissed off right now...

It's clearly a shame, especially if GW stop supporting the products. That said rumors over FB's demise have been circling for a long time so people should likely have gone into it with their eyes open.

Also, I'm wondering... WFB ended. The Tolkien game will probably end sometime in the future, considering that Jackson finished his second trilogy. So... does that leave GW only with WH40K? It looks kind of sad...

Pretty much; 40k and the derivative games. It looks like GW are focusing in on their most profitable franchise rather than, as previously, having a whole host of options than ranged from space battles (Gothic) to sports (Bloodbowl) to naval combat (Man-o-war) to cyber-punk gangs (Necormunda) to Mad Max (GorkaMorka) to more traditional RPG games (Warhammer Quest).

Online Changingsaint

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #1142 on: April 23, 2015, 01:49:36 PM »
Warhammer fantasy is more than likely getting some form of reboot. I don't see GW abandoning it completely. Changing it to compete with Warmachine/hordes, Malifaux, Infinity, etc? I can definitely see them doing that.

Currently the only video game being tied into the end times is Vermintide aka 'Left 4 rats' which is about a group of various peoples trying to infiltrate an empire city that has been taken over by Skaven.

On another video game note, is anyone else looking forward to Space hulk: Deathwing? It's a game being made by Streum On, who made EYE Divine Cybermancy (An incredibly bizarre FPS game that's basically 40k). You play a dark angels librarian in a space hulk, and theres also 4 player coop with a terminator squad. I'm really looking forward to it given how unique EYE was.

Offline Inkidu

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Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #1143 on: April 23, 2015, 02:27:24 PM »
Actually the smart move would be to retool Warhammer fantasy as a sci-fantasy thing that takes place in the 40K universe (they've done this before).

That way you can piggyback the figures into the larger canon of the WH40K universe. The only difference would be that New Warhammer Fantasy would take place on chaos-storm isolated planets.

That's just me though, how I'd run it. It allows you to turn it into supplements, and leave the general world layout up to the player.

Online Changingsaint

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #1144 on: April 23, 2015, 02:49:32 PM »
Actually the smart move would be to retool Warhammer fantasy as a sci-fantasy thing that takes place in the 40K universe (they've done this before).

That way you can piggyback the figures into the larger canon of the WH40K universe. The only difference would be that New Warhammer Fantasy would take place on chaos-storm isolated planets.

That's just me though, how I'd run it. It allows you to turn it into supplements, and leave the general world layout up to the player.

I would hate that because we already have a sci-fantasy game thing taking place in the 40k universe. It's called warhammer 40k.

Offline Inkidu

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Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #1145 on: April 23, 2015, 03:17:35 PM »
I would hate that because we already have a sci-fantasy game thing taking place in the 40k universe. It's called warhammer 40k.
Well, I suppose, but 40K puts the emphasis on the sci part, and my idea would put it on the fantasy aspect, but allows them to not have to split their attention.

Though that's assuming they don't just drop the Fantasy thing completely.

Honestly, I'd like to revisit that Warhammer Steampunk idea I had a long while back. ;3

Offline consortium11

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #1146 on: April 23, 2015, 03:58:20 PM »
Until relatively recently the idea of the FB world being part of the 40K universe was actually canon. GW stepped back from it somewhat in more recent fluff but it wasn't until End Times made it basically clear that it was a separate universe there were no outright denials of it.

Online Changingsaint

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #1147 on: April 23, 2015, 04:22:50 PM »
Well in end times, Skaven did contact Eldar, and elves in the warp were helped by Kaldor Draigo, as well.

Offline BeorningTopic starter

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #1148 on: May 03, 2015, 01:22:35 PM »
So... did anyone of you pick up the Enemies Within sourcebook for Dark Heresy 2E? I received my copy on Friday. The book is quite useful, as it gives the option of playing a Sororitas character (not necessary a Sister of Battle), as well as a Inquisition-employed mutant!

It also has a handy "cult generator" :)

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Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #1149 on: May 04, 2015, 07:11:48 AM »
Haven't been paying much attention to 2nd ed DH. I did get a game of 1st ed though, a VOIP one with some of the guys in my Planetside outfit. We learned that walking into plasmagun fire is Not A Good Thing, and our Arbitor may be looking at a new set of bionic legs to go with her bionic arm. At this rate she'll have more augments than the Tech Priest soon. 3 of the 5 characters got set on fire, my Adept had a read of a very interesting book on deamonology and has gone slightly more insane than he already is :)

On the toy soldiers side, I did see a couple of interesting bits on the rumour mill. The plastic Heresy era stuff could be showing up with a month or so, and the Deathwatch and Genestealer Cult lists could be some sort of box set / mini campaign (which would fit together pretty well). The Deathwatch kill team will use the Sternguard box set as a base, with another sprue of Deathwatch specific heads, shoulder pads and weapons. The Sternguard box set is already great for getting conversion bits, so if that's true it would make that set even better.