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Author Topic: WH40000 - what's your opinion?  (Read 53671 times)

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Online HairyHeretic

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Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #100 on: August 14, 2014, 04:41:52 AM »
Can we get rid of the Blood Angels / Necrons bro-fist too?

Offline Wajin

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #101 on: August 14, 2014, 04:52:39 AM »
Can we get rid of the Blood Angels / Necrons bro-fist too?

NO!


Jk. Yeah that needs to be sorted out rather fast too...

Offline BeorningTopic starter

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #102 on: August 14, 2014, 05:40:18 AM »
I can only say that I'm impressed that WH40K canon is so big...

Now, can anyone explain ForgeWorld miniatures for me?

Offline consortium11

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #103 on: August 14, 2014, 06:15:48 AM »
I can only say that I'm impressed that WH40K canon is so big...

There's an element of false depth there; there's a lot of cases where a planet, action, character, battle or campaign is mentioned but that's it. To paraphrase, you fairly frequently come across stuff like "Captain Talos distinguished himself in the Heridian IV campaign and defeated the Warlock Mordirion on Ultar II"... there's no further (or at most very basic) information about Heridian IV, the campaign there, Mordirion or Ultar II.

That said, Games Workshop is a company that's been around since the 1970's and has been bulding the 40K Universe since the late 80's. Each new edition and each new army book/codex brought in more fluff (and each race tends to get a new army book every two or three years these days) and once GW realised the additional revenue streams through novels and comics yet more of them were produced.

If anything... and as much as I like some aspects of the 40K canon despite the ridiculousness of much of it... I actually think the canon isn't as developed as it should be considering the vast amount of time put into it and the efforts that have gone into it.

Now, can anyone explain ForgeWorld miniatures for me?

Games Workshop on steroids.

Basically, imagine your best mate could make detailed models (far more detailed then the "basic" 40K stuff) and create playable rules for them. Forge World is basically that, except they'll charge an arm and a leg for their models. They're semi-official; the rules are technically legal but generally seen as optional; a player can legitimately refuse to play against them.

Offline Wajin

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #104 on: August 14, 2014, 07:18:42 AM »
Games Workshop on steroids.

Basically, imagine your best mate could make detailed models (far more detailed then the "basic" 40K stuff) and create playable rules for them. Forge World is basically that, except they'll charge an arm and a leg for their models. They're semi-official; the rules are technically legal but generally seen as optional; a player can legitimately refuse to play against them.

To be precise, Forgeworld is a small subdivision of GW who specialize in more... out there game styles like Apocalypse, Battlefleet Gothic, Epic 40k, Epic Fantasy etc.

As of late they've been putting out a Horus Heresy line that I've been purchasing a lot from, as I mentioned before. I also have a few of their more unique Tau units because I'm a sucker for giant robots

(Edit)

This is what happens when you tell the forge world guys to make a new Tau HQ option
« Last Edit: August 14, 2014, 07:21:42 AM by A Japanese Dane »

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Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #105 on: August 14, 2014, 07:46:34 AM »
Newcrons I can accept, but holy hell we need someone competent to rewrite the wardmarines, and find some way to quietly tell everyone that Draigo is gone for good
Yeah, I like the Ultramarines (mainly because my first real exposure to the WH40K world was Space Marine) and even I don't like some of the suishness going around them because of Ward. I mean by the book should come with its own problems, and sure everyone looks good in their own books, but man too far.

Offline Wajin

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #106 on: August 14, 2014, 07:56:46 AM »
Yeah, I like the Ultramarines (mainly because my first real exposure to the WH40K world was Space Marine) and even I don't like some of the suishness going around them because of Ward. I mean by the book should come with its own problems, and sure everyone looks good in their own books, but man too far.

He still to this day refuses to admit that he fanboyed when he got the chance to do the codex and as such fucking ruined a otherwise tolerable codex.

Offline BeorningTopic starter

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #107 on: August 14, 2014, 08:55:12 AM »
Games Workshop on steroids.

Basically, imagine your best mate could make detailed models (far more detailed then the "basic" 40K stuff) and create playable rules for them. Forge World is basically that, except they'll charge an arm and a leg for their models. They're semi-official; the rules are technically legal but generally seen as optional; a player can legitimately refuse to play against them.

Ah, I see. And where are these additional rules for models included? Are they sold with the FW models?

Offline Wajin

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #108 on: August 14, 2014, 09:02:52 AM »
Ah, I see. And where are these additional rules for models included? Are they sold with the FW models?

As a rule of thumb, no.

Offline BeorningTopic starter

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #109 on: August 14, 2014, 09:29:43 AM »
So... where one does get them?

Offline Wajin

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #110 on: August 14, 2014, 09:32:47 AM »
So... where one does get them?

Either they're released in White Dwarf, or the models are a part of a greater campaign, which means their rules come from there. That being said, most of the Tau units made by Forge World has only experimental rules, that are on their website for free. While a lot of the Horus Heresy stuff, you need the rulebook to have the rules.

Point is, before you even begin to think about perhaps wanting to think about getting forge world stuff, try some of the regular minis first and see if the hobby is to your taste.
« Last Edit: August 14, 2014, 09:35:00 AM by A Japanese Dane »

Offline BeorningTopic starter

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #111 on: August 14, 2014, 09:38:18 AM »
I see.

What about FW's models that have equivalent models madel by GW/Citadel? For example, I think there are two versions of the Exorcist tank. Could I, say, use FW Exorcist in a game against normal GW models? Assuming that no optional rules (if they exist) are applied?

Offline Wajin

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #112 on: August 14, 2014, 09:42:41 AM »
I see.

What about FW's models that have equivalent models madel by GW/Citadel? For example, I think there are two versions of the Exorcist tank. Could I, say, use FW Exorcist in a game against normal GW models? Assuming that no optional rules (if they exist) are applied?

Yes, you could. Any FW model with a twin in the regular GW line can be used, if you apply the GW rules to them.

Offline BeorningTopic starter

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #113 on: August 14, 2014, 02:40:16 PM »
I see.

Is there a place on the web when you could look a list of which miniatures and models are currently canon, as well as take a look at the miniatures? I tried looking at the GW website, but I don't think they have all miniatures in their shop currently...

Also: what's your opinion on the fantasy Warhammer wargame? Is it much different from WH40K?

Finally, are there other games out there in WH40K's mold?
« Last Edit: August 14, 2014, 02:41:43 PM by Beorning »

Offline Wajin

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #114 on: August 14, 2014, 03:37:24 PM »
I see.

Is there a place on the web when you could look a list of which miniatures and models are currently canon, as well as take a look at the miniatures? I tried looking at the GW website, but I don't think they have all miniatures in their shop currently...

GW's page would have been my first suggestion, since they're the manufacturer it's usually what I default to when not buying from my local shop.

Also: what's your opinion on the fantasy Warhammer wargame? Is it much different from WH40K?

Wade has been at work in Fantasy too, don't know how much damage he caused there, but from what I know from friends who play it, it isn't very balanced anymore. In terms of playstyle, it revolves around lines of units much more than squads. While Fantasy battles can look insanely awesome, I don't find it a very engaging game when I see it played or when I read the rules, could just be fanboyness though.

Finally, are there other games out there in WH40K's mold?

Warmachine which is, at least here in Denmark, considerably cheaper to play, but lacks a lot of the fluff of WH40k.

Offline BeorningTopic starter

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #115 on: August 14, 2014, 03:44:31 PM »
I see.

BTW. What does it mean that WH40K is built around squads? What does it mean, specifically?

BTW.2: a cool video:


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Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #116 on: August 14, 2014, 03:44:53 PM »
With regard to Forgeworlds models, a lot of them get rules released on the Forgeworld site as experimental rules. From there, they will get included in different books .. Imperial Armour, the Horus Heresy books and so on. Some of them will get rules updates saying 'This unit can be taken in codex X as a unit type Y'.

There's also the ability to proxy or 'counts as' a unit. For example, I have one of these. It's not in my Chaos codex, so I can't use it. I can say that it 'counts as' a Vindicator, so I can still use the model.

Or I can use the Space Marine codex instead of my Chaos codex and use it there. My Marines are newly turned to Chaos, so while they look different to normal marines, they still have the same rules and equipment.

40k gamers, in my experience, are quite happy to bend the rules in order to justify fielding the things they want to. When that's done purely to powergame, it's not so nice, but if someone wants to do it for fluff reasons, I'm unlikely to have any objections.

Almost all the models that have been out previously are still viable. A few special characters have disappeared, but if you still have the model, you just field it as a standard commander or what have you.

I don't play Warhammer Fantasy (WFB) much, but I understand it's been hit a lot harder from time to time when army book revisions come out, and entire regiments of models are now no longer legal.

There are a few other games along the lines of 40k.

Infinity is one that plays at a somewhat smaller size, from what I understand it, with a smaller model count on each side. Some very nice models too.

Warzone has just been redone and rereleased with a new rules set and new models. It'd be similar to 40k in terms of model count, and has some models that could swap over quite nicely with 40k lines.

There used to be a Starship Troopers game, but it's out of production I believe.

That's all I can think off, off the top of my head.

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Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #117 on: August 14, 2014, 03:46:33 PM »
40k is built around squads and vehicles, WFB around unit blocks. The 40k squad has much more freedom of movement than the WFB ones. Think of 10 guys in a dispersed skirmish formation, against a unit of 50 spearmen, 10 men wide and 5 ranks deep.

Offline Wajin

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #118 on: August 14, 2014, 03:53:53 PM »
I see.

BTW. What does it mean that WH40K is built around squads? What does it mean, specifically?

It's easier to show you



That's the blocks Hairy was talking about, I suspect you've seen a WH40k army, or atleast seen a battle force

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Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #119 on: August 14, 2014, 04:05:37 PM »
And while Warmachine is a lot of fun, I'm not sure we could call it that close to 40k.

The models do move in a similar skirmish formation, but fluff-wise you have magi-tech steam powered dreadnought sized robots, supported by infantry and cavalry. It's more a WFB skirmish game than a 40k one.

I have a Cryx army (undead magi-tech steampowered evil robots and zombies FTW  ;D )

Offline consortium11

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #120 on: August 14, 2014, 04:25:03 PM »
Also: what's your opinion on the fantasy Warhammer wargame? Is it much different from WH40K?

I like it.

The basics are roughly the same as 40K; you'll be rolling the same sort of dice in the same sort of manner for characters using basically the same format of stats. As such if you get comfortable with 40K you'll be pretty comfortable with Fantasy Battle.

As you'd expect the change between a sci-fi shooter with huge guns and tanks and a feudal wargame with a focus on close combat means there are some differences. Units being in ranks, flank attacks and the dangers of running away all play a bigger role in FB then 40K.

As such FB comes out as both more and less tactical than 40K. In 40K different armies within the same race, let alone different race, can go into battles with radical different strategies and tactics. In FB pretty much all tactics come down to some variation of hammer and anvil... but the tactical struggle comes from making sure the right unit is the anvil and one of yours gets to be the hammer.

Wade has been at work in Fantasy too, don't know how much damage he caused there, but from what I know from friends who play it, it isn't very balanced anymore. In terms of playstyle, it revolves around lines of units much more than squads. While Fantasy battles can look insanely awesome, I don't find it a very engaging game when I see it played or when I read the rules, could just be fanboyness though.

He wrote an army book for Daemon's in seventh(? I think) edition that is generally considered to be one of the worst ever crunch-wise, making Daemon's ridiculously overpowered and, as the rumours say, causing eighth edition to be brought forward a year or two in an attempt to fix the damage. That said Ward worked on the core eighth edition rules and they've generally been well received and seen a significant improvement on pretty much everything that's come before.

Offline Wajin

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #121 on: August 14, 2014, 04:27:35 PM »
He wrote an army book for Daemon's in seventh(? I think) edition that is generally considered to be one of the worst ever crunch-wise, making Daemon's ridiculously overpowered and, as the rumours say, causing eighth edition to be brought forward a year or two in an attempt to fix the damage. That said Ward worked on the core eighth edition rules and they've generally been well received and seen a significant improvement on pretty much everything that's come before.

Thanks for the correction, haven't seen the new rules as I don't really find Fantasy interesting, the lore I like, the game, not so much

Offline BeorningTopic starter

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #122 on: August 14, 2014, 04:31:57 PM »
Tell me more about squads in WH40K. Does it mean that can't have my soldiers Marines move around freely and independent on each other?

BTW. This talk about editions makes me wonder: 7th edition of WH40K is the current one, right? So... let's say I manage to buy the game and some codexes this year. What's the chance that, in 2015, a new edition will come and will make my hard-paid-for books completely useless?

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Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #123 on: August 14, 2014, 04:35:54 PM »
Thanks for the correction, haven't seen the new rules as I don't really find Fantasy interesting, the lore I like, the game, not so much

I used to like WFB more in the past. I had a Chaos army that was a mixture of Warriors, Beastmen and Deamons. Then they split each of those off into their own armies.

Tell me more about squads in WH40K. Does it mean that can't have my soldiers Marines move around freely and independent on each other?

Each model in a unit has to remain with 2" of another model in the same unit. As long as they're not further away than that, you can have them in any kind of formation you want.

BTW. This talk about editions makes me wonder: 7th edition of WH40K is the current one, right? So... let's say I manage to buy the game and some codexes this year. What's the chance that, in 2015, a new edition will come and will make my hard-paid-for books completely useless?

Unlikely. Generally a edition lasts about 5 years, though the jump from 6th to 7th was .. 2? That was fairly unusual.

The army books themselves are considered legal from edition to edition until a new book for the same army is released to replace it.

Offline consortium11

Re: WH40000 - what's your opinion?
« Reply #124 on: August 14, 2014, 04:46:29 PM »
Tell me more about squads in WH40K. Does it mean that can't have my soldiers Marines move around freely and independent on each other?

Your army can basically be broken into three parts; characters, squads and vehicles (there can be some crossover but that's over-complicating things for this purpose). Characters and vehicles move independently but while squads as a whole move independently, the individual members of a squad have to stick together.

To take the Sister's of Battle, the Cannoness is a character and as such can move independently of the rest of the army. Your Immolator is a vehicle and can thus move independently as well. But your groups of "grunt" battle sisters are a squad. While the squad as a whole can move independently, each individual member of the squad has to remain in close proximity to the others.

BTW. This talk about editions makes me wonder: 7th edition of WH40K is the current one, right? So... let's say I manage to buy the game and some codexes this year. What's the chance that, in 2015, a new edition will come and will make my hard-paid-for books completely useless?

Over recent editions Games Workshop have been fairly good at "future proofing" codexes so they can work with the next editions rules. Even back in the day they included very basic army lists with new editions of the game (one of the last mentions of the dearly departed Squats was in the 2nd edition basic army lists) so you can continue to play, although they're frequently lacking anything but the bare bones and thus tend to be underpowered to codex armies.