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Author Topic: Marvel Vs. DC on the Silver Screen  (Read 4294 times)

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Online Oniya

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Re: Marvel Vs. DC on the Silver Screen
« Reply #50 on: August 19, 2014, 02:48:17 PM »
Winter Soldier Stuff
I wouldn't necessarily discount HYDRA just yet.  Sure, SHIELD cut off one of its heads, but the outro showed that the group wasn't down for the count.  I'm not even entirely certain that we've seen the real leader.

Regarding Falcon - is it possible that they might expand on him in the next Cap movie?  Serums and mutagens have a tendency to seep out of the woodwork just when comic readers think they might be lost forever.

Offline MathimTopic starter

Re: Marvel Vs. DC on the Silver Screen
« Reply #51 on: August 19, 2014, 02:58:12 PM »
Winter Soldier Stuff
I wouldn't necessarily discount HYDRA just yet.  Sure, SHIELD cut off one of its heads, but the outro showed that the group wasn't down for the count.  I'm not even entirely certain that we've seen the real leader.

Regarding Falcon - is it possible that they might expand on him in the next Cap movie?  Serums and mutagens have a tendency to seep out of the woodwork just when comic readers think they might be lost forever.

Thanks for responding.

Spoiler: Click to Show/Hide
I know HYDRA isn't down for the count and I guess neither is SHIELD (not completely, but they've lost a lot, and most of their best and brightest) so it just seems like with HYDRA still skulking around and a depowered SHIELD being left without the kind of resources and manpower it would need to shut them down, there's a huge imbalance in power that's shifting in favor of the bad guys.

And yeah, they can always expand him later but I would have thought his character would be more interesting, and would have been better used, if they'd have gone that route in this film rather than waiting. I mean, if they were able to give Bucky super soldier powers, they could have given Sam Wilson a mutant version that gives him the Falcon powers in addition to being super. I wrote an interesting alternate version of the film that would have made things a little more amped up and satisfying action-wise.

Was anyone else bothered by all the jump-cut editing during the fights between Cap and Bucky? I just thought if neither man knows how to 'film fight' then the solution is to hire a fight choreographer rather than use rapid, motion-sickness-inducing editing to fake it.

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Re: Marvel Vs. DC on the Silver Screen
« Reply #52 on: August 19, 2014, 03:10:43 PM »
Thanks for responding.

Spoiler: Click to Show/Hide
I know HYDRA isn't down for the count and I guess neither is SHIELD (not completely, but they've lost a lot, and most of their best and brightest) so it just seems like with HYDRA still skulking around and a depowered SHIELD being left without the kind of resources and manpower it would need to shut them down, there's a huge imbalance in power that's shifting in favor of the bad guys.

And yeah, they can always expand him later but I would have thought his character would be more interesting, and would have been better used, if they'd have gone that route in this film rather than waiting. I mean, if they were able to give Bucky super soldier powers, they could have given Sam Wilson a mutant version that gives him the Falcon powers in addition to being super. I wrote an interesting alternate version of the film that would have made things a little more amped up and satisfying action-wise.

Was anyone else bothered by all the jump-cut editing during the fights between Cap and Bucky? I just thought if neither man knows how to 'film fight' then the solution is to hire a fight choreographer rather than use rapid, motion-sickness-inducing editing to fake it.

Spoiler: Click to Show/Hide
Giving the bad guys a perceived advantage is probably a way of generating drama so that the next movie has something to work with.  We see that HYDRA has these big guns waiting, and it's almost like there should be a voice-over of Stan Lee saying 'Tune in next time, true believers!' 

While the editing did give my stomach the jolts, I found it easier to deal with than the camera work in movies like Gladiator.  Maybe it was because - with the action taking place at fatally high elevations above the Potomac - there's an expectation of vertigo.  The fear of falling is primal, and while Bucky might have been able to ignore it because of whatever else HYDRA did to him, I don't think Cap is completely immune to it.

Offline MathimTopic starter

Re: Marvel Vs. DC on the Silver Screen
« Reply #53 on: August 19, 2014, 03:20:29 PM »
Meh, I don't think that's a good enough excuse for it.

Something funny for you guys to check out, but beware there's still spoilerfication; if you click 'play' it's on your own head.


Online Neysha

Re: Marvel Vs. DC on the Silver Screen
« Reply #54 on: August 19, 2014, 07:53:21 PM »
I thought that youtube channel was clever when it first started and dealt with things like Avatar and whatnot, but it's become so formulaic that now they're just making the video equivalent of tedious nitpicking and other associated nerdisms most people don't care about. So... as vanilla humor goes, it's okay.
« Last Edit: August 19, 2014, 08:24:43 PM by Neysha »

Offline Top Cat

Re: Marvel Vs. DC on the Silver Screen
« Reply #55 on: August 20, 2014, 12:57:02 PM »
Didn't see this thread when it started...

I've discussed this with a coworker who is a long-time DC fan, and we both agree on the same fundamental state of affairs:

  • Marvel, since it took over their movie production, has been knocking movies out of the park, while DC has been floundering.
  • DC has been consistently making fun, interesting TV shows (both animated and live-action), while Marvel's TV offerings have mostly been lackluster.
  • Both companies are floundering badly in their print comics, with too much focus on mega-cross-title events, too much sliding toward darker, edgier storytelling, and the apparent dismissal of stories/comics that are fun and silly.

DC's biggest problem on the movie side of things is that they hit the cultural conscious too hard with Superman and Batman in the past, while neglecting the rest of their library. They relied too heavily on those two characters, because they were the ones that became popular and known; they chose to go with the sure-fire profitable asset, rather than building awareness of more of their less-known characters. Marvel, at least, experimented in the 70's with the Spider-Man and Captain America light movies they ran in the summer for several years. They've been making up some of this problem with their television offerings, with Justice League and Teen Titans helping broaden the awareness of their characters, but in the box office, they're still relying too much on Superman and Batman.

Marvel, on the other hand, is putting all of its eggs on the movies, and the animated TV shows are, at best, "passable." The only out-of-the-park TV show they've had in the past two decades is the first X-Men animated series, and while it certainly helped bring the X-Men into the public awareness, their follow-ups have been less powerful and less interesting... and it ended almost two decades ago, in 1997. Looking at their list of shows, it's clear that they've been trying to claim some presence in the television world, but as the majority of their shows have been 1-2 season flops, it's hard to say that they're succeeding.

But both companies are having a serious problem with converting their fans from TV and movies to comics, and a large part of that is that they're either basing the movies off of old versions of their comic history - there's a distinct disconnect between what they're doing with their comics characters, and how they're using them everywhere else. There have been dozens (if not hundreds) of blogs complaining about DC's treatment of Starfire in the New 52, but one of the most significant is one I can't find again - someone talking about their teenage daughter, who loved the Teen Titans animated show, being thrilled to find out that Starfire, her favorite character, was going to be in a new comic, in the New 52, and being horrified that the character was essentially a brainless sex doll. Yes, they've partially rolled back some of that, but she's still a very different character in the New 52 than she was back in the 80's, or in the animated series.

But that's not only DC, as I said - both companies have this problem. Marvel has made a huge success with their Avengers movie, by taking characters that people already knew about thanks to other movies, and threading the movies all together, rather than each one standing alone. So what's wrong with that? Well, let's take a list of who is in the Avengers movie. Iron Man, Captain America, Thor, The Hulk, Black Widow, and Hawkeye. That's a solid line-up of characters, right? But if someone who loved the movies goes and picks up an Avengers comic today, what do they get?

Spoiler: Click to Show/Hide


No Hulk, Hawkeye or Black Widow at all. Female Thor. Black Captain America. 8 other characters that they may or may not know from other sources (Scarlet Witch has been in quite a few animated series, Winter Soldier is obviously in the most recent Captain America movie, Deathlok was heavily-featured in Agents of SHIELD). The only character that's consistent is Iron Man... and from all reports, he goes from egotistical to tyrannical in this story arc.

Now, don't get me wrong. I actually have no objection to the Femme-Thor* or Black Captain America**, or adding new and different characters to the Avengers (but how the heck are they accepting Angela, who is a VERY new face in the Marvel world?), just that this is a terrible time to be doing it. By having such a dramatic difference between what they're showing in the movies and what's going on in the comic, they run a very strong risk of turning away potential new readers. The bigger the difference, the stronger the effect... and man, is this some huge difference.

Both companies need to balance better between attracting new readers and not alienating the long-time fans, and both are failing on both of those now.

* The new woman using Thor's hammer has several appearance traits very similar to Valkyrie. That's my guess, but I'm not confident enough in that guess to bet money on it. ;)

** Sam Wilson, AKA Falcon, is arguably one of the BEST people to pick up the Captain America mantle if Steve Rogers is busy playing super-spy since he's spent years as Cap's partner, and people can identify him from Falcon's appearance in the Winter Soldier movie.

Offline MathimTopic starter

Re: Marvel Vs. DC on the Silver Screen
« Reply #56 on: August 20, 2014, 02:50:21 PM »
^

Damn, bro, that's the best objective examination of the topic yet! Bravo *applauds*. I agree, the Avengers may be the moneymaking kingpin of the cinema world but neither company's record is spotless and they're going to continue facing problems they don't have any easy solutions to. Pandering to young money at the expense of older, more devoted fans who made them what they are today (and let's face it: This pandering to children is ludicrous given these are PG-13 movies). DC should have taken more risks earlier and it's causing them to suffer, and the failure of Green Lantern to please most audiences didn't help them decide to do what Marvel did with things like Guardians of the Galaxy and Ant-Man, bringing in more obscure or less-popular properties and seeing how well they fare with the public. Guardians is almost up to $450 million which would at least be semi-close to the other Phase 2 box office receipts (other than IM3).

DC Vertigo comics have inspired a lot of films (really want them to make a film series or at least TV series out of things like Preacher and Y: The Last Man already) but while some may receive positive reviews, they aren't really box office smashes. Jonah Hex, for example, wasn't critically acclaimed or financially successful (and I personally thought it mostly boring despite Michael Fassbender playing such a fascinating character before switching to Marvel to play Magneto).

Offline Top Cat

Re: Marvel Vs. DC on the Silver Screen
« Reply #57 on: August 20, 2014, 06:24:41 PM »
Thanks, Mathim. =^_^=

I've got strong hopes that DC pulls its editorial head out of its publishing ass, but there's too much inertia, and too many very bad things in their history, that make me think that their attempt to follow Marvel's example and make a powerful Justice League live-action movie won't end up being very good. But I'm an optimist, so I'm holding my fingers crossed all the same.

One thing that I was going to mention in the earlier post, but forgot about (and didn't really have room for) is DC's treatment of Wonder Woman in the past few years. They changed her costume along with the New 52 Reboot, and attempted to make a TV show using the new outfit. It was cancelled before the pilot episode was even completed. But while they were doing this new, "hip," modern look for her, they were still using the classic Wonder Woman image in lots of other venues - advertising channels for other products, humanitarian ads for charities, the Justice League animated show, and so on. So the question was, "Are they really getting rid of the classic look, or is this just a temporary thing?" Interestingly, some photos of Wonder Woman from the Superman/Batman movie have been leaked, and she's in something very close to the classic look, not the New 52 design. So that may be a good sign for the future of DC movies.

Time will tell. =^_^=

Edit: The woman playing Wonder Woman is named Gal Godot, and here's one of the leaked photos:
Spoiler: Click to Show/Hide
« Last Edit: August 20, 2014, 06:29:27 PM by Top Cat »

Online TheGlyphstone

Re: Marvel Vs. DC on the Silver Screen
« Reply #58 on: August 20, 2014, 06:47:12 PM »
When I saw that picture for the first time, my faith in Dawn of Justice eroded even further. Wonder Woman's costume is as much the colors as the design; red, blue, and gold. That Wonder Woman is GRITTY and BROWN and MODERN and BROWN and DARK and BROWN. Call of Modern Battlefield Duty wishes it could be so BROWN.

(technically, I think it's supposed to be bronze coloring. But the lighting and background...just makes it BROWN.)

Offline ShadowSlider

Re: Marvel Vs. DC on the Silver Screen
« Reply #59 on: August 20, 2014, 06:57:11 PM »
When I saw that picture for the first time, my faith in Dawn of Justice eroded even further. Wonder Woman's costume is as much the colors as the design; red, blue, and gold. That Wonder Woman is GRITTY and BROWN and MODERN and BROWN and DARK and BROWN. Call of Modern Battlefield Duty wishes it could be so BROWN.

(technically, I think it's supposed to be bronze coloring. But the lighting and background...just makes it BROWN.)

Yeah, that was pretty my reaction as well. And it wasn't helped at all by the casting. I've got nothing against Gal Gadot, but I fear for what her Wonder Woman will be like if her performance in the Fast and Furious movies are anything to judge by. I really feel like she was cast because of her looks, and not her actual acting abilities.

God I hope I'm proven wrong about that...

Offline Top Cat

Re: Marvel Vs. DC on the Silver Screen
« Reply #60 on: August 20, 2014, 07:06:01 PM »
IMO, that picture is better than the early New 52 costume:

Spoiler: Click to Show/Hide


Red, gold, and black... revised to red, gold, and blue. I believe that the more recent comic outfits have dampened the gold down to white/silver.

Honestly, I think their biggest problem with trying to do a new live-action Wonder Woman (in any sense) is that they can't even come close to Lynda Carter's look. Costume be damned, they need someone who can meet her style.

Edit for clarity: What I like about the movie leaked pic is that she looks like a warrior, as I think Wonder Woman should regardless of how her clothes look. The biggest problem with the ill-fated TV show is that the actress they chose NEVER looked heroic or strong. Similarly, the New 52 outfit looked... "trendy" and "hip," not "serious" or "combat-capable."
« Last Edit: August 20, 2014, 07:12:33 PM by Top Cat »

Offline Pumpkin Seeds

Re: Marvel Vs. DC on the Silver Screen
« Reply #61 on: August 21, 2014, 06:13:01 AM »
I have a few problems with the leaked photograph.  The first is that the woman here is not a strong, built warrior type that Wonder Woman portrays.  Honestly the new 52 comics do show a well built and strong woman, not just a sexy body that throws people around.  This is a seriously new take on beauty and the feminine body.  Honestly that is a very brave avenue to wander down, especially considering many of DC’s other women seem to be more “sex doll” in appearance.  Wonder Woman definitely breaks that mold there, but not here in the movies.  My other problem is that little stands out from this image and say Xena Warrior Princess.  While nothing is wrong with the warrior princess motif, other than being cliché, there should be something here that screams “Wonder Woman.”  I mean, this is the iconic image for women in comics.  You would think DC would make sure to hit a homerun with this one as this would actually be the first, true female super hero on the big screen with this new generation of movies.  Instead we have a model, dressed up in a Xena costume that is playing third fiddle to Superman and Batman.

DC is not being adventurous or risk taking in letting Wonder Woman stand on her own, but is instead making a safer bet that their two main male characters will carry through to the box office.  The reboot of the Tomb Raider video game series should have shown them that not only can a female action lead carry the product, but can carry that product to great income.

Online Neysha

Re: Marvel Vs. DC on the Silver Screen
« Reply #62 on: August 21, 2014, 09:07:12 AM »
Wonder Woman looks like a fashion model dressed in leather. Couldn't they have hired someone with a bit of a muscular build? And nothing against Gal Gadot, but she's not exactly a well renowned actress and hasn't particularly impressed me in anything she's done. And her bikini scene in Fast Five made me hungry for a cheeseburger. Is DC even trying to market Wonder Woman seriously as a character with that effort?

The MCU has thrown higher regarded female acting talent at far more minor comic book characters. Zoe Saldana as Gamora, Glenn Close as Nova Prime, Emily VanCamp as Sharon Carter, Scarlett Johannson as Black Widow, Gwynneth Paltrow as Pepper Potts, Rene Russo as Frigga, Natalie Portman as Jane Foster, Jaime Alexander as Lady Sif, Liv Tyler as Betsy Ross, Hayley Atwell as Peggy Carter, Kat Dennings as Darcy... all of those actresses are at least as popular and have a more impressive quality of work then Gal Gadot who is basically the most famous superheroine... period.

I'm not saying that Gal Gadot is going to fail. I hope she succeeds spectacularly. But while there have been (unfortunately) several iterations of a waifish or thin Wonder Woman, I was hoping they wouldn't cast a thin actress from the fashion industry and little establishment from a body of quality work to be portraying the premier heroine in the history of comic books. I cast further doubt on her success because I don't think Zack Snyder has the directorial talent to bring out the best from his actors like I would think others could.

Offline Chris Brady

Re: Marvel Vs. DC on the Silver Screen
« Reply #63 on: August 21, 2014, 01:57:06 PM »
The other issue with the DC films is that Warner Brother execs have a direct hand in how they're made, and like Video Game execs, they have no idea what it is to make a movie.  Often hiring people who don't know, like or have ever read a comic.  Worse, they seem afraid of letting their superheroes be superheroes.

Marvel on the other hand, seems to understand, and gets directors and producers that are fans, or who've worked in the comic industry.

In the animated front, I'm not sure but as long as they Andrea Romano handling the casting and actors, DC seem to be doing pretty well.

Offline MathimTopic starter

Re: Marvel Vs. DC on the Silver Screen
« Reply #64 on: August 21, 2014, 02:21:54 PM »
The other issue with the DC films is that Warner Brother execs have a direct hand in how they're made, and like Video Game execs, they have no idea what it is to make a movie.  Often hiring people who don't know, like or have ever read a comic.  Worse, they seem afraid of letting their superheroes be superheroes.

Marvel on the other hand, seems to understand, and gets directors and producers that are fans, or who've worked in the comic industry.

In the animated front, I'm not sure but as long as they Andrea Romano handling the casting and actors, DC seem to be doing pretty well.

I love Andrea, she does such a great job casting voice talent.

Lots of new developments on the Ant-Man front; looks like a few cast members have been added but without who they'll be playing, though some are fairly obvious. I really want more press releases on this since I don't think any MCU pic has had this kind of strife involved in its development. Does anyone think these kinds of details should be spoiler-censored or what? Like for stuff about Avengers: Age of Ultron and Ant-Man and Batman Vs. Superman, the big titles coming out but that aren't here yet and haven't got trailers.

Offline Top Cat

Re: Marvel Vs. DC on the Silver Screen
« Reply #65 on: August 21, 2014, 02:39:54 PM »
With regard to the Ant-Man movie, I have one huge problem with it, based on early information that may get changed before the movie is released.
Spoiler: Click to Show/Hide
From what I've heard, Janet Van Dyne (Wasp) ends up being killed off-screen as part of the early story or pre-story. WTF, people? Come on, Marvel, you should know better than to Fridge a popular female character.

This is one of my biggest problems with DC, although they seem to have mostly learned from their lessons - killing off other characters, especially female characters, solely as a way to get some pathos for a protagonist is uncool. Wasp was one of the FOUNDING members of the Avengers, and has been the Leader more than once (and a very solid, capable leader, at that). There's just too much face-palm here... that's a terrible way to start a new movie.

Offline MathimTopic starter

Re: Marvel Vs. DC on the Silver Screen
« Reply #66 on: August 21, 2014, 02:47:45 PM »
With regard to the Ant-Man movie, I have one huge problem with it, based on early information that may get changed before the movie is released.
Spoiler: Click to Show/Hide
From what I've heard, Janet Van Dyne (Wasp) ends up being killed off-screen as part of the early story or pre-story. WTF, people? Come on, Marvel, you should know better than to Fridge a popular female character.

This is one of my biggest problems with DC, although they seem to have mostly learned from their lessons - killing off other characters, especially female characters, solely as a way to get some pathos for a protagonist is uncool. Wasp was one of the FOUNDING members of the Avengers, and has been the Leader more than once (and a very solid, capable leader, at that). There's just too much face-palm here... that's a terrible way to start a new movie.

I have to say I completely agree.
Spoiler: Click to Show/Hide
Not only that, but the fact that they're taking the approach of having an elderly, retired Hank Pym take a backseat to Scott Lang as the introduction to Ant-Man is a really strange, potentially shitty idea. Making up a daughter that never existed to presumably take up the mantle of Wasp and again, presumably be Scott's new love interest, is also dubious. What would have been the problem with just using Hank Pym and Janet Van Dyne? I know the idea of Ant-Man isn't exactly screaming 'wow cool' but team him up with Wasp and you've got potential since then you have more than one hero even if their combined set of abilities isn't as impressive as some we've seen so far. Nobody's mentioned Ant-Man's ability to become Giant Man in the film yet, so hopefully that's just going to end up being a very nice, well-kept secret surprise for us later on.

A different spoiler-related thing I just found out follows for those who don't want Ant-Man spoilers but more of a general Marvel-related spoiler.

Spoiler: Click to Show/Hide
I also hear that, after Ant-Man and the good Doctor Strange (Possibly even before Strange, actually), Marvel Studios is dumping the whole origin story format. So any new major characters, including Black Panther, Ms. Marvel and others, are going to be more or less in media res by the time they make appearances. Do you guys agree with this or are you all still fond of getting to know these wonderful people(ish) all over again?

Offline Top Cat

Re: Marvel Vs. DC on the Silver Screen
« Reply #67 on: August 21, 2014, 02:57:50 PM »
I have to say I completely agree.
Spoiler: Click to Show/Hide
Not only that, but the fact that they're taking the approach of having an elderly, retired Hank Pym take a backseat to Scott Lang as the introduction to Ant-Man is a really strange, potentially shitty idea. Making up a daughter that never existed to presumably take up the mantle of Wasp and again, presumably be Scott's new love interest, is also dubious. What would have been the problem with just using Hank Pym and Janet Van Dyne? I know the idea of Ant-Man isn't exactly screaming 'wow cool' but team him up with Wasp and you've got potential since then you have more than one hero even if their combined set of abilities isn't as impressive as some we've seen so far. Nobody's mentioned Ant-Man's ability to become Giant Man in the film yet, so hopefully that's just going to end up being a very nice, well-kept secret surprise for us later on.

Honestly, early Ant-Man and Wasp, with Hank and Janet, would make some good story-telling; they could explore the spousal abuse that broke them up as a subplot in movie # 2 or 3, if they wanted to touch on such an issue. That's one of the cases where Marvel had a near-fridging situation, and resolved it brilliantly, in that Janet was strong enough emotionally to kick Hank to the curb over it.

Quote
A different spoiler-related thing I just found out follows for those who don't want Ant-Man spoilers but more of a general Marvel-related spoiler.

Spoiler: Click to Show/Hide
I also hear that, after Ant-Man and the good Doctor Strange (Possibly even before Strange, actually), Marvel Studios is dumping the whole origin story format. So any new major characters, including Black Panther, Ms. Marvel and others, are going to be more or less in media res by the time they make appearances. Do you guys agree with this or are you all still fond of getting to know these wonderful people(ish) all over again?
Call it 50-50. I'd like to see new origins for the Marvel MovieVerse, since it's clearly not the same as the comic universes, and it gives the writers an opportunity to stretch their legs and explore a known story in new ways. But if they're going to make good movies, I can accept having them dump the origins, and simply acknowledging, "There's super heroes in this world, move on."

On a completely different subject: I think what DC needs to do to really set the stage for a new attitude on their movies is to skip the Supes/Bat things (deal with them later), and go with one of the other characters that has been dealt with in animation. Say, make a live-action Static Shock movie, or Booster Gold.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2014, 02:59:53 PM by Top Cat »

Offline MathimTopic starter

Re: Marvel Vs. DC on the Silver Screen
« Reply #68 on: August 21, 2014, 03:18:25 PM »
Honestly, early Ant-Man and Wasp, with Hank and Janet, would make some good story-telling; they could explore the spousal abuse that broke them up as a subplot in movie # 2 or 3, if they wanted to touch on such an issue. That's one of the cases where Marvel had a near-fridging situation, and resolved it brilliantly, in that Janet was strong enough emotionally to kick Hank to the curb over it.
Call it 50-50. I'd like to see new origins for the Marvel MovieVerse, since it's clearly not the same as the comic universes, and it gives the writers an opportunity to stretch their legs and explore a known story in new ways. But if they're going to make good movies, I can accept having them dump the origins, and simply acknowledging, "There's super heroes in this world, move on."

On a completely different subject: I think what DC needs to do to really set the stage for a new attitude on their movies is to skip the Supes/Bat things (deal with them later), and go with one of the other characters that has been dealt with in animation. Say, make a live-action Static Shock movie, or Booster Gold.

Agree about the Hank Pym wife-beating thing, that would certainly portray him as a hero with more than his fair share of character flaws and really make any redemption they decide to have him go for be all the more significant but this was discussed in another thread a while ago and it was widely believed that while we could forgive Tony Stark for the equivalent of drunk driving, an awful crime that kills numerous people every day, America was too squeamish to forgive slapping one's wife/girlfriend whether drunk or otherwise. Marvel did decide to puss out on that one too apparently, a black mark on their record of being willing to take bold risks.

I don't like the idea of losing the origin story format if only because Marvel Studios doesn't have dibs on many of their popular properties and so the heroes they do have,
Spoiler: Click to Show/Hide
especially for characters like Guardians of the Galaxy whom they were unavoidably forced to fudge the origins on just a bit
, kind of do need origins to establish them since without that, the only choice for pointing out things would be using flashback sequences which will end up getting as repetitive as the formula of using origin stories, in my opinion.

DC did not have a lot of success with Steel way back in the '90's and Green Lantern didn't perform as well as they projected so them dropping their biggest names in favor of other stuff right now, even if they could get away with a minimal budget and maximum effect, they'd still never greenlight it. If they just did the smart thing and follow Green Lantern with another solo Justice League member movie like the Flash or something, they'd be in a much better position. But they fucked that up by acting all butt-hurt about Green Lantern and bullshitted about it still being part of a trilogy which is never going to happen. Hell, if they'd at least made a sequel by now they'd be in a better position to give more credibility to Batman Vs. Superman.

Offline Jmorty33

Re: Marvel Vs. DC on the Silver Screen
« Reply #69 on: August 21, 2014, 03:49:35 PM »
I'm gonna throw my two scents in on the whole Gal Gadot/ Wonder Woman topic. As for the costume itself... yeah it's a bit lackluster in the color department and does call to mind the whole warrior princess motiff that's been done before. But this is just the first costume. Hell, Diana's probably not even going to be called "Wonder Woman" in the movie! The costume works logically though. Diana would be from Themyscira, an amazon nation. Amazons are from Greece meaning that the main metal they have to work with would be bronze, gold, silver, and iron. Not metal that's red, white, or blue. So the armor of course would be made of the metal they have and the leather they work with, which would be a predominantly brown and bronze color pallet. She's dressed in the armor from her homeland, it works. Perhaps after the movie, where Diana comes in contact with the outside world, the armor will change to reflect that and we could see the red and blue stuff come out in a later movie. But for her first appearance, it fits. Plus who's to say they won't change her costume in between movies? Captain America has gone through about four costume changes in three movies, and he's getting a new one in Age of Ultron, so that makes five.

Offline Chris Brady

Re: Marvel Vs. DC on the Silver Screen
« Reply #70 on: August 21, 2014, 04:09:43 PM »
Honestly, early Ant-Man and Wasp, with Hank and Janet, would make some good story-telling; they could explore the spousal abuse that broke them up as a subplot in movie # 2 or 3, if they wanted to touch on such an issue. That's one of the cases where Marvel had a near-fridging situation, and resolved it brilliantly, in that Janet was strong enough emotionally to kick Hank to the curb over it.
Spoiler: Click to Show/Hide
  IT WAS ONE TIME!  ONLY ONE TIME AND IT WAS AN ARTIST'S MISTAKE!  I'm sorry but that total BS that Henry Pym in the 616 universe is a 'wife beater' is just that BS!  This is the blog of the man who wrote the comic HIMSELF:  http://www.jimshooter.com/2011/03/hank-pym-was-not-wife-beater.html

Gah, I HATE this perception.  I'm sorry Mathim, I promised not to bring it up...  But...  I'm going to spoiler it, apologies.

Offline Top Cat

Re: Marvel Vs. DC on the Silver Screen
« Reply #71 on: August 21, 2014, 04:51:00 PM »
Spoiler: Click to Show/Hide
  IT WAS ONE TIME!  ONLY ONE TIME AND IT WAS AN ARTIST'S MISTAKE!  I'm sorry but that total BS that Henry Pym in the 616 universe is a 'wife beater' is just that BS!  This is the blog of the man who wrote the comic HIMSELF:  http://www.jimshooter.com/2011/03/hank-pym-was-not-wife-beater.html

Gah, I HATE this perception.  I'm sorry Mathim, I promised not to bring it up...  But...  I'm going to spoiler it, apologies.

I understand not liking it, but that's how Marvel took the story. Even if it was caused by one artist misunderstanding and/or misrepresenting the writer's intentions, it was supported and carried on even in that same issue, with Janet showing her black eye in the "court martial." And they ran with that well beyond that one issue, including an eventual reconciliation and friendship between the two. Hank made a pretty big mistake, and eventually learned and grew from it. Marvel, for once, did the responsible thing with it, and kept it as it was first printed, rather than retconning it down the line.*

And it's kind of hard to really work around this:
Spoiler: Click to Show/Hide


There's a lot of discussion that could be had over how much power a writer has after their work sees print (see, "Han Shot First," for an iconic example of that), and how much "belongs" to the public that reads/watches your work, but that's getting too far off-field, I think. I'll try to make a new thread to discuss that later.

* Incidentally, this one one of my beefs with both Marvel and DC. DC's solution to the problem of ever-growing canon backstory is to occasionally crash all, or most, of it to the ground, making the past no longer canon so that they have the freedom to write new stories without having to risk countering something that was established years or decades before. Marvel's solution is that canon beyond the last year is less relevant, and writers can outright retcon known events if the new story benefits. I don't think that either of these is the best solution for dealing with monolithic canon, but I don't have an easy solution, either.

Offline Chris Brady

Re: Marvel Vs. DC on the Silver Screen
« Reply #72 on: August 21, 2014, 05:49:29 PM »
For the record, Marvel has never run with it in the 616 universe.  In the Ultimates I think they did, but that didn't fare all that well.  It's the comic fans that have taken up the arms and painted Pym.

As for the Ant-Man movie, here's the thing, let's assume that Marvel is going to shy away from that, but still keep Janet dead.  Bear in mind that Hank Pym never wanted to be a hero.  He always wanted to be stuck in the lab working with his friends, the bugs.  Now, in theory, given that Pym also has a tendency to focus entirely on his failures, despite having made some pretty big advances in science that helps others (although they're removing Ultron, which he considers his biggest), and that Janet has been successful at everything she's done, there was likely a break up of their relationship, which likely would never have a harsh word thrown about.  Just she realizing that no matter how much they love each other, it's just not going to work out.

So what she does she do?  Goes adventuring and superheroing by herself.  And unfortunately, the truth of the matter is, neither Ant-Man or Wasp is actually that powerful, and neither are well trained fighters.  So, maybe, Wasp got in over her head, without the Avengers or just Hank watching her back (they could EASILY make the opposite happen.  Wasp and Ant-Man still break up, but he dies in a lab accident, or tries to be a hero, but like I said, not that well trained for it) and got killed.  Boom, done.  Now Hank has to deal with the guilt (on top of all the other failures in his life) that he wasn't there when the woman he loves was in danger.

I'm hoping they go that route and ignore the fan fueled apparent hatred of Hank Pym, over a small mistake made by an artist.  Which I'd like to point out is the only time in all of the 616 Universe's portrayal of Hank Pym hitting an unsuspecting Janet Van Dyne.  I cannot speak for the Ultimates.

Offline Top Cat

Re: Marvel Vs. DC on the Silver Screen
« Reply #73 on: August 21, 2014, 06:07:32 PM »
For the record, Marvel has never run with it in the 616 universe. 
I suppose that depends on what is meant by "run with it." Did they make a huge issue out of it? No. Did they treat it as something that had happened? Yes, very much so. But they treated it as something that happened once, not an OMG HE CAN'T BE TRUSTED!!!! drama fest, which (you're correct) was a vast overreaction by the fan base.

He was in severe sleep deprivation (having been awake for 3 days), frustrated, depressed - it was a cocktail for overreaction and poor choices. He did it; he regretted it later. I seem to recall something in West Coast Avengers where he was talking with another woman (Tigra?) about his mistake that night - more concerned about having punched Janet than loosing a killer robot on the Avengers!

My point, overall, is that Marvel handled the disintegration of the marriage and relationship between Hank and Janet fairly well, pretty maturely. Which is a noticeable difference from how Scott Summers tarts himself all over the place...  >:)

Offline Chris Brady

Re: Marvel Vs. DC on the Silver Screen
« Reply #74 on: August 21, 2014, 09:51:29 PM »
You didn't read the blog did you?  Nevermind, I'm done with this topic.