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Author Topic: The Draft?  (Read 6062 times)

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Offline InkiduTopic starter

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The Draft?
« on: September 16, 2008, 04:48:03 PM »
So I was sitting in Business Law this morning and our professor was going over Con (Constitutional) law. (Keep in mind this is the U.S. Constitution)

Now he posed this question with all the things that have been amended in the U.S. constitution wouldn't an all-male draft into the military be unconstitutional? I think so from a legal standpoint.

Offline RubySlippers

Re: The Draft?
« Reply #1 on: September 16, 2008, 05:27:28 PM »
feminism.eserver.org/workplace/professions/women-in-the-military.txt

Looking at this information and its seems accurate women can do ALOT of military position is some branches all of them and in others a bit over half so I would say in our current military a Draft could include and should include women. I know some will say women shouldn't fight as a Libertarian and a woman I find that offensive like we can't defend this nation. It should be easy to channel women into branches where they have zero problems doing duties and favor men for ones like the Army. As for the problems of pregnancy military persons in service have few rights there make them take a implanted form of birth control or a shot during their service to avoid that. Not that I approve of forced service ideally the US would only defend the nation property and real vital interests so the needs should be not needed but with these warmongers and interventionists we get into office if we have one, everyone should serve. Even I could do a desk job allowing an able bodied man or woman to serve in a more active role, with my service done inside the country.

Offline Trieste

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Re: The Draft?
« Reply #2 on: September 16, 2008, 06:15:03 PM »
Oooh, this subject makes me want to stomp my feet. Whenever I see someone agitating for women to be able to be just as draftable as men and required to register with the selective service, I want to jump up and down and scream, "No! Wait! You're going the wrong way!"

Nobody should be draftable. Not women, and not men either.

Offline Sherona

Re: The Draft?
« Reply #3 on: September 16, 2008, 06:17:36 PM »
what got me was women being forced to take Birth Control. That is just as bad as outlawing Birth Control, or Outlawing ALL abortions....

Offline RubySlippers

Re: The Draft?
« Reply #4 on: September 16, 2008, 06:21:12 PM »
I ,as a Libertarian, agree with you 100% but IF they are going to force people to serve then under our Constitution and the needs of the military by what the genders can do allow no excuses. In other wars such as WWII men did most of the duties so women when they served filled roles that were generally not combat related. Its different now.

And soldiers can be forced to take vaccinations and shots especially in a general war setting which would have to be in place for a Draft to be even excusable, birth control likely implants could be coerced. Its no different than shots for various illness if your being sent to serve in an area with tropical diseases.

Offline Trieste

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Re: The Draft?
« Reply #5 on: September 16, 2008, 06:26:00 PM »
I have been told by several ex-mil types that the US Government technically owns you when you sign into service. Usually they do not exercise this right but the most common example I have heard of is when guys go on a drinking binge and put themselves in the hospital. That merits a charge of intentional damage to government property/resources.

This is second-hand, but I've heard it from several places, and when I checked it for urban legend-ness, it came up neg.

In that light, they already can force you to take shots and whatnot. They technically can experiment on you, I believe. It's very scary. But it puts the issue of "My body, my choice" out the window.

After that, it's really the most wise course, if you think about it.

Offline RubySlippers

Re: The Draft?
« Reply #6 on: September 16, 2008, 06:47:44 PM »
Well they would likely argue in courts that due to the state of active major war and the women being drafted its necessary to coerce the use of long term birth control by women, and men if they had an option there. I'm a military brat my uncle was a JAG lawyer so I called him and he said it would be an interesting case but this is likely the case they would make. If men decided to challenge the draft law as unconstitutional he said it would likely succeed and force the draft of women but the military would decide where to send them based on what duties are needed. So they would be more channeled into the branches where they may serve in any position more than the others to meet "necessary military areas of major needs".

Offline Sherona

Re: The Draft?
« Reply #7 on: September 16, 2008, 07:42:03 PM »
While going on Birth control is the most wise choice, if tehy are going to FORCE me to join or serve in teh army then they by damned will not take away any reproductive rights. Now I don't want any more children so yeah free BC that my husband can't say no to? GREAT but thats not going to help those women who aer wanting children, trying to with their husband andthen be forced to join teh army, and the forced to throw everythng off for BC (becase the hormones stay in t he body after discontinuation and reduces pregnancy chances for a while after removal.)

Draft= NO

Forced reproductive policy= NO.

Thats just my thoughts about it.

Offline RubySlippers

Re: The Draft?
« Reply #8 on: September 16, 2008, 07:51:44 PM »
Well then you will get a choice of prison or going to Canada or Mexico.

When we are in a general war the courts will rarely side against the needs of the country during such a time, so just hope we don't invade Iran that happens we may all get into this for real.

Offline Sherona

Re: The Draft?
« Reply #9 on: September 16, 2008, 08:14:41 PM »
naw ever since the draft was abolished there have been scare tactics and rumors that the government is going to bring back the draft. It hasn't happened yet, and I highly doubt it will happen any time soon. Besides with my medical hsitroy I am unfit to serve so I, myself, won't have anything to fear but you would find me marching in protest.


You act as if this is actually going to happen, do you have sources that state that a re-instatement of the draft and forced reproductive policies are up for a vote in congress?

Offline Trieste

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Re: The Draft?
« Reply #10 on: September 16, 2008, 08:22:54 PM »
No, the draft is not likely to be re-instated anytime soon. The last draft taught us better - soldiers who don't WANT to be fighting don't fight well. They have very low morale. They aren't courageous or willing to stick their necks out. It's like rounding up a prison and asking them to knit doilies for charity. Yeah, okay, whatever there, sparky.

It would be political suicide BUT many people on the very far left (at least, that's how it works around here) have been making it out like it's about to be reinstated, like, tomorrow. Intentional or not, I view it as scaremongering... that energy that's spent worrying about and trying to prevent the draft would be much better spent elsewhere.

Offline RubySlippers

Re: The Draft?
« Reply #11 on: September 16, 2008, 08:25:22 PM »
No but we are stretched thin its just common sense we bomb Iran this will open up a higher level of violence int he region so its possible they will be forced to do so. As for Congress under war powers if the courts rule the current draft laws unconstitutional and that would be very likely they would have no choice but to force women into the draft that could be under presidential order like when they desegregated the military. And my uncle said with the risk of pregnancy exempting women they would have to enforce birth control just like they do immunizations.

Its going to come down to how much more strain we force the military to bear they are already on the edge now, one more front its going to perhaps be too much.

Offline Sherona

Re: The Draft?
« Reply #12 on: September 16, 2008, 08:34:54 PM »
Which makes it more logical that the next administration wont be bombing Iran without pulling out somewhere then to put in a poorly thought out policy that would just mean political suicide.

Offline RubySlippers

Re: The Draft?
« Reply #13 on: September 16, 2008, 08:46:02 PM »
Have you been keeping up with the thought certain military planners think we can just bomb Iran into submission and if Israel decides its in their national interest to do so they will do so, either case might unleash Iran. They could easily reinforce and expand efforts against us in Iraq, Afghanistan and Pakistan as in a full general war backed by a real nation that will not be likely to back down. And we would have legitimized them a Muslim nation attacked first would elicite massive support. Could you envision what they can do send troops into these other nations, unleash terrorism backed by their support or cut off the waterways. You don't think they would do a draft if they needed the troops and warm bodies.

And the draft was successful in WWII so its not like it cannot work, but we have to have troops believe in what they are fighting for.

Offline Destiny Ascension

Re: The Draft?
« Reply #14 on: September 16, 2008, 09:54:58 PM »
I have been told by several ex-mil types that the US Government technically owns you when you sign into service.

This is off a bit. When you enlist you sign a series of contracts and service papers. These basically say, you are willing to abide by any lawful order given to you by superior officers of your command, or any command you are under. So technically, they do kinda own you, but they also kinda don't, like they can' tell you to do anything thats not a lawful order(Like...ordering you to commit suicide or run out into machine gun fire as a distraction, as that would likely ensure death)

I don't agree with a draft, its not necessary, and honestly, as a former Marine, I wouldn't want some punk kids that DONT wanna be here, fighting along side me with that type of attitude. Its just...kinda distracting when someone complains that they don't wanna be there.

As for women in the military, they SAY non-combat, but in the Iraq war, there are NO non-combat roles. Everyone not Arabic is a target. Cooks, doctors, reporters, EVERYONE. Women have been targeted and killed in duty, I've been targeted, though thankfully not killed. There are no front lines, and really no rules, in Iraq or Afghanistan. So really, regardless of what you do, your likely going to see combat. I was a radio operator, so technically I shouldn't have ever seen combat, but like most service women, I still did anyways.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2008, 09:59:33 PM by Destiny Ascension »

Offline Sherona

Re: The Draft?
« Reply #15 on: September 16, 2008, 10:44:17 PM »
Have you been keeping up with the thought certain military planners think we can just bomb Iran into submission and if Israel decides its in their national interest to do so they will do so, either case might unleash Iran. They could easily reinforce and expand efforts against us in Iraq, Afghanistan and Pakistan as in a full general war backed by a real nation that will not be likely to back down. And we would have legitimized them a Muslim nation attacked first would elicite massive support. Could you envision what they can do send troops into these other nations, unleash terrorism backed by their support or cut off the waterways. You don't think they would do a draft if they needed the troops and warm bodies.

And the draft was successful in WWII so its not like it cannot work, but we have to have troops believe in what they are fighting for.

Again scare tactics. Still no proof that they are even contemplating a draft. Number 1. Bombing is done without sending n troops to occupy countries when necessary, it has happened before and will happen again.

Number 2. I could also say that Martians are likely to land and send terrorist cells into Pakistan and Afghanistan but without solid evidence I doubt anyone will be sending troops to mars...good god I hope the next administration will have learned /that/ lesson from our current one.

number 3. Just because the enemy might or might not employ the draft does not mean that US is going to stoop to that level..as Destiny so eloquently put it, no one wants someone who doesn't want to be there to be the one they put their life into their hands.

Number 4. WWII was FAR more widely supported then say Vietnam, Iraq...note that when the wars are very low in support from the homeland (United states here) the amount of draft dodges went sky high...The congressional leaders will realize that there will be no point in putting in a draft when those who DONT dodge, will end up getting them or their platoons killed for lack of will to be there.

Just my opinions, don't really ahve sources to back these up as they are just my views on history. Though I could come up with sources on draft dodgers of Vietname, I could come up wtih sources that state that WWII was far more supported then Vietnam (both actions taken during draft).


Offline Caehlim

Re: The Draft?
« Reply #16 on: September 17, 2008, 06:17:43 AM »
I agree that no one should be drafted. If, as the political powers that be, the people are not willing to lay down their lives for your country then you have to wonder what you're doing wrong rather than try to force them to fight.

I would gladly sign up to the military if I ever believed my country were under serious military threat, because I like my country and would like to keep it the way it is. I don't sign up now because there is absolutely zero danger to my country and I think serving in the military wouldn't achieve much.

Please note: I am not American. I'm Australian.

Offline Sherona

Re: The Draft?
« Reply #17 on: September 17, 2008, 07:01:16 AM »
On that note Caehlim, I would serve my military if need be though in the US military (this was true abotu 12 years ago, not sure now) but history of mental illness, such as chronic depression, is enough to keep me out.


Offline Caehlim

Re: The Draft?
« Reply #18 on: September 17, 2008, 07:27:26 AM »
On that note Caehlim, I would serve my military if need be though in the US military (this was true abotu 12 years ago, not sure now) but history of mental illness, such as chronic depression, is enough to keep me out.

I like to sleep with other men...

Offline Sherona

Re: The Draft?
« Reply #19 on: September 17, 2008, 07:31:05 AM »
I like to sleep with other men...

Wow, what a coincidence, I like to sleep with men too....which should be a standard reply in the military unfortunately that too would be "You TOLD!! Get out ya homosexual deviant.." *sigh*...

I hate the bs sometimes..I really do.

Offline Oniya

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Re: The Draft?
« Reply #20 on: September 17, 2008, 07:35:35 AM »
I wouldn't pass the physical, myself.  And as far as forced birth control - if they make it mandatory for women, they should make it mandatory for men, too.  (That'll put a wrench in the system ;D)  Not to mention, I know the real code phrase to get out when you're drafted.

"You walk in to the shrink whenever you are, just walk in, say, 'Shrink -- You can get anything you want at Alice's Restaurant.' -- and walk out."

Offline InkiduTopic starter

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Re: The Draft?
« Reply #21 on: September 17, 2008, 08:03:39 AM »
Oooh, this subject makes me want to stomp my feet. Whenever I see someone agitating for women to be able to be just as draftable as men and required to register with the selective service, I want to jump up and down and scream, "No! Wait! You're going the wrong way!"

Nobody should be draftable. Not women, and not men either.
The U.S. government reserves the right to instate the draft. So whether you believe its wrong or right, it's constitutional. So you have a very off topic answer.  :-[

Offline InkiduTopic starter

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Re: The Draft?
« Reply #22 on: September 17, 2008, 08:06:05 AM »
what got me was women being forced to take Birth Control. That is just as bad as outlawing Birth Control, or Outlawing ALL abortions....
Stay on topic for the first page at least.  :-\ Abortions while an issue of ethics is not defined black-letter or otherwise in the U.S. Constitution so come, drafting just men, unconstitutional?

Offline Sherona

Re: The Draft?
« Reply #23 on: September 17, 2008, 08:10:23 AM »
Number 1. it was on topic as it was related to the draft. It was not a tangent on abortion, I just used that as an example of why drafting women and forcing BC on them is wrong...which is again, on topic to constitionality of the draft of only men.


As far as only men, taht was constitutional before the sexual revolution. Now there are admendments that make women equal to men, so no it is now unconstitutional.

Offline InkiduTopic starter

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Re: The Draft?
« Reply #24 on: September 17, 2008, 08:14:32 AM »
Number 1. it was on topic as it was related to the draft. It was not a tangent on abortion, I just used that as an example of why drafting women and forcing BC on them is wrong...which is again, on topic to constitionality of the draft of only men.


As far as only men, taht was constitutional before the sexual revolution. Now there are admendments that make women equal to men, so no it is now unconstitutional.
But whether or not women are forced to take birth control in the military when drafted isn't the point. The second part of your answer is.