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Author Topic: How do you know that Satan is the evil one?  (Read 1236 times)

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Offline Oniya

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Re: How do you know that Satan is the evil one?
« Reply #25 on: July 28, 2014, 02:49:08 PM »
Ah But you are forgetting a key fact had they not eaten from the tree How would we have known the difference?  So really you can not say whether or not we would have been better off or not.

Slight side-track that this reminded me of:  I once read a short story in one of those old sci-fi monthly magazines (possibly Analog), where a guy dies at the same moment that Lucifer and the 'rebel angels' decide to ask forgiveness.  As a result, he encounters a St. Peter that is so flustered that the guy gets sent to Hell for something pathetically menial.  But Hell is empty.  As a result, the guy essentially becomes the 'ruler' of Hell by default, with the ability to punish sinners and create Hell as he sees fit.  When the mistake is finally discovered, he's told that he actually should have been given the opportunity to repent and go to Heaven - but as he's never seen Heaven, he doesn't feel the loss of not being there (which was supposedly Lucifer's big punishment).  And he's discovered that he likes his new role just fine. 

Offline Beorning

Re: How do you know that Satan is the evil one?
« Reply #26 on: July 28, 2014, 03:25:21 PM »
The beauty of philosophy is that the origin or source of a philosophical assertion is irrelevant.  It's the words that matter, and the concept they represent.

Yeah, but the difference is that Bible is supposed to be true. Meanwhile, Demon: the Fallen is a work of pure fiction...

I wouldn't use White Wolf as a citation in a college paper, (and I'm guessing it's one of the World of Darkness expansions from the 'Noun: the Descriptor' format) but to quote a certain little green bard, 'Somebody thought of it, and someone believed it' - which is about the best description of a philosophy as I've seen.

Actually, I'd say that Demon's creators didn't believe in what they were writing...

(and for information's sake: Demon: the Fallen is a game from the Old World of Darkness. It's about fallen angels. It shouldn't be confused with the recently-published Demon: the Descent, which is set in New World of Darkness and is about rebelling agents of cosmic supercomputer...)

Self determination, intelligence, rationality, and freedom...

...or...

...endless servitude to a sadistic creator in a paradise devoid of fulfillment?

Actually, you're forgetting that there's no sign in the Bible that God was cruel to humans in the garden of Eden.

Offline Chaosfox

Re: How do you know that Satan is the evil one?
« Reply #27 on: July 28, 2014, 03:28:32 PM »
Slight side-track that this reminded me of:  I once read a short story in one of those old sci-fi monthly magazines (possibly Analog), where a guy dies at the same moment that Lucifer and the 'rebel angels' decide to ask forgiveness.  As a result, he encounters a St. Peter that is so flustered that the guy gets sent to Hell for something pathetically menial.  But Hell is empty.  As a result, the guy essentially becomes the 'ruler' of Hell by default, with the ability to punish sinners and create Hell as he sees fit.  When the mistake is finally discovered, he's told that he actually should have been given the opportunity to repent and go to Heaven - but as he's never seen Heaven, he doesn't feel the loss of not being there (which was supposedly Lucifer's big punishment).  And he's discovered that he likes his new role just fine.


Just another slight side track: that sound like an interesting story I will have to try and see if I can not find it else where surly it  must be floating around the internet somewhere. Thank you for mentioning it.

Offline Silk

Re: How do you know that Satan is the evil one?
« Reply #28 on: July 29, 2014, 05:12:02 PM »
My question is a simple one. "If god is all knowing, and can see all, then why didn't he stop Satan? Surely it was perfectly within his power to just go "Yeah Satan, shut the hells up" or just Sparta him out of the garden, why wait until after? Surely he knew right? I mean he's god, he's perfect he knows all? I can only conclude he did know, and it was some kind of test, one that he knew Adam and Eve would fail, which just further makes god to be a Douchebag. It's the whole Punish the homosexual because I made them homosexual thing.

Offline SabbyTopic starter

Re: How do you know that Satan is the evil one?
« Reply #29 on: July 29, 2014, 05:19:33 PM »
This is why you can just go ahead and dismiss anything that begins with the premise "God is all knowing and all powerful". The only way to reconcile a flawless being creating a flawed world is by saying "Oh, he meant for that to happen", which means you also have to reconcile all the 'evils' of the world as the intentional design of a loving creator. It's a mess.

Offline TaintedAndDelish

Re: How do you know that Satan is the evil one?
« Reply #30 on: July 29, 2014, 05:33:10 PM »
In that case, you argue that good and evil are merely two aspects of this god. This god is neutral, or takes both sides simultaneously. It is equally pleased with the birth, bliss, misery and destruction of its creation.

It told Adam and Eve not to eat those yummy apples because it wanted to fuck with them. It took great pleasure in creating them, and in punishing them. Later on in history, it would make their offspring suffer, make sacrifices ( which are pleasing ), and repent. This god is probably into S&M too ^_^
« Last Edit: July 29, 2014, 05:36:55 PM by TaintedAndDelish »

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Re: How do you know that Satan is the evil one?
« Reply #31 on: July 29, 2014, 05:41:12 PM »
All knowing and all powerful is not necessarily something we understand in the same way as God.  While it's certainly not a canonical representation of God, one of my more favorite depictions of Him is as seen in Bruce Almighty.  A man is invested with all of God's power...and he proceeds to screw things up so that at the end of the movie, he has to undo everything he's done.  Knowing something isn't enough.  Power isn't enough - Dr. Who fans in the house?  I'm totally calling a 'School Reunion' scenario here.  And to just pile on more pop culture references, look at the Legend of Zelda - three Triforces: Courage, Power, Wisdom (which is not to be confused with knowledge!).  Which are the heroic ones, again?

Back to Bruce Almighty.  God gives Bruce one rule to abide by while he's God - you can't mess with free will.  And at the end of the movie, Bruce asks God: "How do you make someone love you without affecting free will?"  And God essentially replies: you don't.

If you read Genesis, it's made very clear that we were made with all of our potential, for good and evil, right from the get-go.  We just lacked the ability to understand it.  God gave man free will - to choose to accept or reject God as we so see fit.  Yes, God is all-powerful.  He could make us love Him if that's what He wanted.  But that's not how God operates - God wants us to freely chose to follow, because as I'm sure a lot of people here have learned, when you force someone to do something they don't want to do, then they look for the first exit out.

And Paul talks about, in his letters, that God does not tempt men, not some sort of sadistic tyrant that enjoys when we fail.  So by no means did God 'mean' for the fall of man to happen any more than he meant...pick a 20th century atrocity.  Even one committed in God's name, if you have to.

Offline Serephino

Re: How do you know that Satan is the evil one?
« Reply #32 on: July 29, 2014, 05:45:22 PM »
Lucifer isn't the 'bad guy'.  He was created as a balance.  You can't really have good without bad.  It's like... if you have a bad day, but come home and your partner/family member did something sweet for you, it cheers you up.  You feel good.  But if nothing bad ever happened there would be no warm and fuzzy feelings; only the same old crap different day.  Good would be normal and therefore nothing to be excited about.  There has to be a balance, and that is where Lucifer comes in.

I'd say if the Garden of Eden thing did happen, perhaps God sent Lucifer to tempt Adam and Eve because he was bored with the way they were.  After all, I don't believe God = good either.  God is a being just as we are beings.  I think we're a science experiment.  He makes stuff like the apple happen to see what we'll do. 

Offline SabbyTopic starter

Re: How do you know that Satan is the evil one?
« Reply #33 on: July 29, 2014, 06:09:43 PM »
Okay, before I start this, I'd like to be very clear on something, just to save any misunderstandings. I am by no means trying to say "God's not perfect, so he sucks", or "Bad things happen, so there's no God". This is not my intended meaning, though I realize it could look like it on a casual glance over, so I ask you read it thoroughly if you plan to respond. I am an Atheist, but I don't consider All Powerful and All Loving to be necessary qualities for a Deity, if one were to exist. I have no problem accepting (if presented with proof, of course) a Deity that is capable of making mistakes and doing things that hurts us for no benefit. I may not love such a being, but I can definitely accept their existence.

I am only addressing one single concept of a Deity, one which is All Powerful, All Knowing, and credited with creating the existence we experience. These are three things often attributed to Yahweh, though I recognize that not all Christians consider God to have all of these qualities.

I just find the assertion that any being capable of creating the world as we see it being both All Powerful and All Loving to be illogical in the extreme, and I will explain why.


Okay, with that disclaimer out of the way (I know how this board can get heated when things aren't made clear xD) here I go.

In that case, you argue that good and evil are merely two aspects of this god. This god is neutral, or takes both sides simultaneously. It is equally pleased with the birth, bliss, misery and destruction of its creation.

Of course, that premise works. I'm only referring to any God that is described as both All Powerful and All Loving. I consider it to be logically inconsistent because pain and suffering exists, and must either be an error on Gods part, rendering him flawed, or intentional design, rendering him merely loving at best, and negligent/cruel at worst. You can make the argument that, much like a parent getting their child stitches or an injection, God may have to hurt us sometimes in order to do what's best for us, but that argument falls flat in my opinion. If that were true, only necessary suffering would exist, where all pain and hardship not only had the potential for humanity to grow, but always produced an improvement equal to or greater to the suffering inflicted. That doesn't exist. The world at times (some more then others) is full of suffering and pain that is much greater then whatever lesson or improvement it may impart. Example, a hardship, whether it be a plague, a natural disaster or a war, that kills off majority of a population, rendering the damage caused far greater then the development of the survivors. Another example would be anything that kills all involved, rendering development impossible.

So either God dropped the ball and allowed too many hurricanes to exist, or he was purposefully excessive in the amount of hurricanes he used. Either one, there goes the All Powerful/All Loving qualities.


Offline Passion and Desire

Re: How do you know that Satan is the evil one?
« Reply #34 on: July 29, 2014, 06:25:00 PM »
[...] But that's not how God operates - God wants us to freely chose to follow, because as I'm sure a lot of people here have learned, when you force someone to do something they don't want to do, then they look for the first exit out.

And Paul talks about, in his letters, that God does not tempt men, not some sort of sadistic tyrant that enjoys when we fail.  So by no means did God 'mean' for the fall of man to happen any more than he meant...pick a 20th century atrocity.  Even one committed in God's name, if you have to.
Are you really, really sure about that? Because the bible says otherwise.

Quote from: Exodus 9:12
And the LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh, and he hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had spoken unto Moses.
and
Quote from: John 12:40
He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

Also, regarding Bruce Almighty: a quick thought experiment. Would God have given his powers to Hitler? If no, why not?

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Re: How do you know that Satan is the evil one?
« Reply #35 on: July 29, 2014, 06:37:24 PM »
I have no problem accepting (if presented with proof, of course) a Deity that is capable of making mistakes and doing things that hurts us for no benefit. I may not love such a being, but I can definitely accept their existence.

That would be more in your school of Greek/Norse/Egyptian gods, then - gods that are personal but not powerful - like what we'd probably be thought of back in the days of those ancient civilizations if we came with all our powerful technology and such.

Sab, what you're asking for for acceptance is impossible from the God of Christianity, because what you asked for is a divine being that is capable of making mistakes, and one of the cornerstones of the religion is that God is infallible.  He never makes mistakes, etc.  Even if you look at the other Abrahamic religions - Judaism and Islam - Yahweh/God/Allah is written as being perfect.  No mistakes.  No screwups.  To remove that from the table is to basically dismantle those religions, mainly because the source of God's authority is that He doesn't make mistakes - if God is mistake-possible, then we aren't obligated to listen to God any more than we are to any other person on the street.  Removing God's infallibility removes God's moral authority.

If a Divine Being - any Divine Being - is capable of making mistakes, and errors, and such lapses in good judgment, then the only reason we would be compelled to follow such a being, who may or may not be as flawed as we are, is out of fear of being pulverized with the next stray bolt of lightning.  In which case, divine beings aren't heavenly or good at all, but devilish tyrants that we appease each day so that we can go on with our lives.

...I'm sure there's an Immanuel Kant-like saying somewhere in there...



@Passion: Please, please don't do that.  That's cherry picking the Bible for quotes so that you can prove your point.  I don't agree with the 'All Hail God' guys I meet on the street when they do it, I don't agree with the guys I see on Fox News when they do it, I don't agree with my real life friends when they do it (so they've learned wisely not to - I'm still working on Fox News.  Damn you Steve Doocy!).

The bit from Exodus - the Ten Plagues - was about one thing.  That Pharoah was being a dick to the Jews, the chosen people of God at that time, and God punished the Egyptians for their dickery.  God said that the Jews would be His people, and that He would be their God.  Things have changed, changed a lot.  The Old Testament way of doing things is long past.  So, I'll very politely ask you not to mix the Old Testament in here, because God (in form of Jesus) said that the old ways are gone.  God doesn't have a chosen people anymore - He has promises that He made to the Jews, and because of the nature of God, God will keep those promises - but the Jews do not have a monopoly on this God anymore.

Offline TaintedAndDelish

Re: How do you know that Satan is the evil one?
« Reply #36 on: July 29, 2014, 06:44:19 PM »
This is where religion gets really foggy for me. People start attributing stuff to the action of said god.

"And the LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh, and he hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had spoken unto Moses."

Did anyone stop to think critically and ask how the writer knew this, or did they just assume that this writer was the mind and mouth of god? I'm sure they said that what they were saying was legit, and I'm sure their friends backed them up, but it sounds like rampant assuming to me.

"He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them."

This is nice, but this is the writer giving his opinion on a situation. How do separate this from any other opinion?

My point is not to knock down your rebuttal, Passion, which is a good rebuttal if we assume that all this bible stuff is true for the sake of analysing the story, but is rather to point out how in the bible, there are statements that just cannot be validated.  It's one man's word against another's. For this reason I find it very hard to believe this sort of stuff.


Offline SabbyTopic starter

Re: How do you know that Satan is the evil one?
« Reply #37 on: July 29, 2014, 09:45:54 PM »
Reiji, I went to great lengths to make my post as clear as possible because I didn't want someone to cherry pick one sentence and then base their entire response on a misunderstanding of that sentence and its context. Never did I say that I expected the God of Christianity to be like what I described there in the sentence you quoted. That was literally the least relevant sentence in the entire post. It was a small aside on my position of a fallible Deity. I don't consider infallibility and infinite love to be necessary qualities of a Deity. I explained this to try and give a little context to the major point, that being an infallible creator.

I don't know whether you meant to do that or if it was an honest mistake, but I really don't like having spent 40 minutes refining a post just to be strawmanned. Please read more carefully.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2014, 10:11:06 PM by Sabby »

Offline Euron Greyjoy

Re: How do you know that Satan is the evil one?
« Reply #38 on: July 30, 2014, 12:39:09 AM »
What if Satan doesn't exist, but God does and is indeed watching us? More importantly what if God a sick and twisted voyeur who gets off watching us suffer and slowly destroy ourselves? Not to mention he sent his only son to earth, only to be tortured and crucified for our sins. However, we still sin and unless we repent, we'll go to hell even though we were absolved of sin when Jesus died. Then there is this one of my favorite quotes.

Quote
“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?”
- Epicurus
« Last Edit: July 30, 2014, 12:41:29 AM by Euron Greyjoy »

Offline Prototype

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Re: How do you know that Satan is the evil one?
« Reply #39 on: July 30, 2014, 07:52:18 AM »
I havent followed the entire thread and I am sorry in advance if anyone has already stated something I might bring up but I recently had this conversation with a person regarding good and evil; Satan and God.


In my eyes I cannot see a being often described as vindictive, cruel and destructive as the embodiment of good. It is stated and even quoted by 'God' that he is the creator of all that is good as well as all that is evil.  God is the reason Satan exists as well and he allows it hence its questionable if Satan is all evil why not just get rid of it.

God and in his name there have been many genocides, and all disbelievers were killed including women and children and even animals.

He had his own son crucified.

God commited first murder and tortute.
Okay so Satan;  His main negative atribute is pride. He was once Lucifer which stands for " The Light Bringer " or " The Illuminated " and he saw what god did to his creatures ( Us ) hence he tried to step against him and for that he was banished to the lake of fire. Now I dont see how that reflects to Satan in a negative way.

Satan gave humans knowledge of good and evil, due to Adam and Eve not knowing what was good an evil they wouldnt had known eating the fruit was bad, and for that they were punished. Once again I dont see how that makes Satan bad.

There is a huge cap and lack of explination in any of the piblical records regarding Satan and what he did wrong, why he stood against god other than to stop his evil on us humans.

Satan by no piblical records has never killed or tortuted a human being.

Satan will not hold a festifal of death and blood on the return of his son on earth, god apparently will.


Satanism is belief in life before death, belief in your own self and choices you make rathet than allowing yourself be enslaved beneath a tyrant that is God. It is often misconcepted to Devil Worship unfortunatly.

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Re: How do you know that Satan is the evil one?
« Reply #40 on: July 30, 2014, 10:02:10 AM »
If a Divine Being - any Divine Being - is capable of making mistakes, and errors, and such lapses in good judgment, then the only reason we would be compelled to follow such a being, who may or may not be as flawed as we are, is out of fear of being pulverized with the next stray bolt of lightning.  In which case, divine beings aren't heavenly or good at all, but devilish tyrants that we appease each day so that we can go on with our lives.

As someone who does honour the Norse Gods, I have to say you have a very ... unique ... perspective on why I might choose to do so.

I consider the Abrahamic God far more of a tyrant than the Aesir and Vanir, and that's at least part of why I abandoned Christianity many years ago.

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Re: How do you know that Satan is the evil one?
« Reply #41 on: July 30, 2014, 10:18:10 AM »
Then let's hear it - if you have another reason for following the Aesir than the (more or less universal) one that I listed, I'd like to know what it is.  Although, I will say that Odin?  Total rules munchkin.  I mean, everything but Epic Strength, Dexterity, and Appearance?  Please.  :P

Offline Ironwolf85

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Re: How do you know that Satan is the evil one?
« Reply #42 on: July 30, 2014, 10:35:53 AM »
hm
Didn't expect this when I returned.

You guys do realize the devil only appears a few times and never as a major player.
He only appears twice in the bible, once in the old testament with Solomon summoning him among the other dark spirits, demons, ect.
Once to tempt Christ with worldly power if he would surrender his morals.

That's it.

The rest of it is basicly centuries of catholic monks and bishops publishing what amounts to fan fiction, sometimes really damn well written fan fiction mind you. Miltion's paradise lost was good stuff with redemption of man, rebellion, high stakes of the world, the temptation, and so forth written from a "Behind the scenes" angle.

His role in the torah is more "The prosecution lawyer" in the personal battle for a man's soul, Not the big ass evil threat to god, ect.
In the Christian New Testiments he appears ONCE as a tempter of worldly desires.

But he was assembled into this big bad boogy man by centuries of popular culture adding layers and their fears to what is essencally a guy with no backstory and little power in scripture but fanboys being fanboys they had to start writing stuff about their own local religious heroes overcoming his warty little dipshit ass...

This should throw ya for a loop, there is no hell either, more fanfiction, followed by years of fire and brimstone backwoods preachers. The only time it's mentioned in the King James bible is due to a mistranslation. The word the aposle used was "Ghenna" the jewish word for afterlife.

I say all this as a Christian myself.

Also freaking revelations... that was too late in the game to normally make it into canonical text but the early Christians loved the vivid imagery so much that the church fathers had to include it. I don't believe much of that.


and what's this "Tyrant" stuff I'm reading? That's why I dislike hardcore athiests or "Satanists" they pick and choose from the old testament to prove their point in the same way fundie preachers who found one little line about homosexuality being bad (right next to the shellfish) and went "this means we have to stone gays." or the southern preachers who opposed Martin Luther King who drew on the line about adam having dominion over the beasts of the earth as carte blanche to oppress women and minorities. Meanwhile MLK used more advanced reading of the same book as religious proof that all men are equal before the eyes of god.

Christ taught and preached about compassion, human decency, and forgiveness. I don't see why people just can't get that you are closer to god giving a can of food and shelter to a homeless person for a night than you are donating to FOX approved church charities.
If Christ came back today there would like be a lot of "Moral Majority" "religious" preachers out for his blood, the same way it happened the first time.

Fundies don't even make up the majority of Christians but like with muslims they are the loudest, most fanatical, and least likely to read the whole damn text, therefore the most entertaining and likely to do shit that gets them on the 11:00 news.

_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Okay rage rant done, I get tired of the intellectual echo chamber of smug self satisfaction that these "God VS Devil" or "God VS athiesim" boards become. The hardcore atheistic / humanistic argument against the existence of God or the immorality thereof has not moved forward a since the early 90's Meanwhile for every argument the faithful have a counterpoint, and they have continued moving on in various directions. Some good, some not. Notice the majority of the newest generations of Christians support Stem Cell research, believe in evolution, and supported gay marrage laws. Much to the chagrin of the old guard in the fundie camp.

So there's my two cents.
satan's a minor player without a backstory, so humanity made one up in renaissance fan fiction.
Christ taught and acted as a kind healer who preached humility, honesty, charity, worthiness of all in the eyes of god, and forgiveness of your fellow man. He also nullified the opressive old testament doctrines. For this heresy was executed by religious and civil authorities... yeah...
These forums often become an echo chamber where people bash my faith with only a minor understanding of the doctrine and internal culture and political struggles among Christians and Christian communities worldwide.

Offline Oniya

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Re: How do you know that Satan is the evil one?
« Reply #43 on: July 30, 2014, 10:40:47 AM »
Okay so Satan;  His main negative atribute is pride. He was once Lucifer which stands for " The Light Bringer " or " The Illuminated " and he saw what god did to his creatures ( Us ) hence he tried to step against him and for that he was banished to the lake of fire. Now I dont see how that reflects to Satan in a negative way.

More trivia:  Biblical use of Lucifer as a proper name is found exclusively in the King James Version of the Bible, where it is used to translate a name in Isaiah:  הילל בן שחר (hęlęl ben šāḥar).  The Rabbinical interpretation of Isaiah does not conflate Lucifer with Satan (it might even have been a mortal king of Babylon, and as late as 430 C.E., Lucifer had not been included among the names for Satan.  There are even a few hymns of that vintage that use the word lucifer to refer to Christ himself with lines like 'Tu verus mundi lucifer' - You are the true bringer of light to the world.

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Re: How do you know that Satan is the evil one?
« Reply #44 on: July 30, 2014, 10:47:30 AM »
I don't follow them out of fear, which seems to be the main reason you gave. I follow them because I can relate to them. I see them as kin. Older, wiser, more powerful, but still kin. Someone I can speak with, or indeed argue with if it comes to that. Someone who isn't going to tell me "Do this, don't do that, end of story", but "You do what you think you have to, but make damn sure you're prepared to deal with the consequences." They have qualities I can relate to, characteristics I'd want to emulate.

I'm closer to some than others, but that's the same with any family. I'd call myself a Tyr's-man primarily, though over the years I've become closer to Freya as well. I'm perfectly happy not to attract the All-Father's gaze. I understand he has a tendency to test the worthiness of those he takes an interest in, and I have quite enough interesting events in my life already, thanks :)

I wasn't actually looking for anything when I came across Asatru. I found it by accident, but the more I read into it, the more it resonated with me. Here was something that matched who I was. It simply felt right, in a way that Christianity never had.

It's been 20 years now, give or take, and I haven't regretted the choice I made.

Offline Oniya

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Re: How do you know that Satan is the evil one?
« Reply #45 on: July 30, 2014, 10:51:55 AM »
I wasn't actually looking for anything when I came across Asatru. I found it by accident, but the more I read into it, the more it resonated with me. Here was something that matched who I was. It simply felt right, in a way that Christianity never had.

That's actually much the way that I stumbled into Wicca and Paganism in general.  Just sorta kept cropping up in random places.

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Re: How do you know that Satan is the evil one?
« Reply #46 on: July 30, 2014, 11:08:01 AM »
God

•God takes away Adam and Eve's eternal life, thus commiting the first murder, and holds their descendants responsible and visiting Adam and Eve's punishment down on their children. In today's moral standards, the sins of the father die with the father.
•God destroys all life on Earth in a great flood, except for a drunk (Noah) and his family, for failing to worship him.
•God's tenth plague upon the Israelites was the unjustified murder of all firstborn sons in Egypt, which undoubtedly included little children.
•Before sending the plagues to Egypt, God "hardened Pharaoh's heart" so that he wouldn't let the Israelites go, so he could have an excuse to visit horrible plagues upon them, like boils, killing cattle and murdering all firstborn sons. (Exodus 4:21)
•God orders the Levites to kill their "every man and his neighnor" for worshipping another god. This cost 3000 lives. (Exodus 32:27)
•God sends a plague to the Israelites, apparently feeling that mass-butchery wasn't enough of a punishment. (Exodus 32:35)
•God kills Onan for refusing to impregnate his late brother's (whom God also slew) wife and instead "spilling his seed on the ground." (Genesis 38:8-10)
•God kills the entire populations of Soddom and Gammorah (again, including women, children and infants) for practicing certain sexual techniques.
•God gives all Philistines hemorrhoids in their pubic areas. (1 Samuel 5:9)
•God kills over 50,000 people for looking at an ark. (1 Samuel 6:19)
•God kills 70,000 people because King David decided to have a census. (1 Chronicles 21:7-14)
•God approves of slavery, and instructs owners to beat their slaves. (Proverbs 29:19)
•And, finally, God makes sure that if you are guilty of even the smallest transgression, you shall suffer endlessly for all eternity, following a dramatic homecoming for Jesus, who will be extremely pissed off at everyone for putting him to death, even though it was just the Romans and even though he knew what was going to happen beforehand, and he could have easily avoided it by using his power as God to perform a miracle and prove who he was. (See the entire book of Revelation)

Satan

•Satan, like Prometheus, gave knowledge to humanity by giving Eve the fruit from the forbidden tree. Because of Satan, humanity gained knowledge of good and evil, according to Genesis. Since we couldn't have possessed knowledge of good and evil before eating the fruit, Adam and Eve couldn't have known that eating the fruit was evil, so it seems a little harsh to punish them as severely as God did. Satan gave humans true capacity for moral judgment, unlike God, who simply expected everyone to mindlessly obey his orders.
•There is no biblical record of Satan engaging in the murder of torture of any human being, unlike God, who is guilty (and proudly guilty) of commiting genocide.
•There is no biblical record of Satan ever ordering someone to kill someone else, unlike God, who has repeatedly demanded the deaths of those who commit even the smallest of offenses.
•Satan will not be holding a massively dramatic ceremony full of blood and death for the return of his son to Earth. God apparently will.

Can make your own conclusion. I tried to explain this before.

Offline Ironwolf85

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Re: How do you know that Satan is the evil one?
« Reply #47 on: July 30, 2014, 11:20:04 AM »

Okay so Satan;  His main negative atribute is pride. He was once Lucifer which stands for " The Light Bringer " or " The Illuminated " and he saw what god did to his creatures ( Us ) hence he tried to step against him and for that he was banished to the lake of fire. Now I dont see how that reflects to Satan in a negative way.

Satan gave humans knowledge of good and evil, due to Adam and Eve not knowing what was good an evil they wouldnt had known eating the fruit was bad, and for that they were punished. Once again I dont see how that makes Satan bad.


Two problems, Except in newly printed "satanic" texts created in the 1900's and internet forums. it's a VERY different story.

1. Islam is the only one in which he features prominently, and is where his fall from grace is recorded, and Milton's amazing work of fanfiction, his fall wasn't from standing between god and man on man's behalf. His pride and jelliously when god brought home the new kids (mankind) and told the angels to bow before them.
It reads like a kid throwing a temper tantrum.

G"You shall bow before and take care of my newest and greatest creation my children, mankind, cast in my image."
D"But they are so flawed, why should I bow to creatures made of mud when I am made of light?"
G "Because they are my greatest creation and because I said so"
D "you're wrong about this, so I'm better screw you dad, comeon guys anyone with me on this!"
G "Oh for the love of... stop picking on the new baby and go to your room."
D "Screw you dad MAKE ME"
G *grabs him by the ear* "okay Lucy that's enough"
D "But but but"
G "Now stay in your room and think about all the people you hurt!"
Read the Koran, it's the only book where he has any backstory at all. Even then he's not the cause of evil, he's just held up as an example of a child being punished for pride making him go against god.

2. The snake being the devil is not in canonical texts, but as both are tempters it was fashionable for Victorian era christians to connect the two, and thus Victorian "Anti-Christians" embraced the idea as much as their more numerous counterpart since it cast their particular favorite fan-made character in a better light
there's no basis for it.

Offline Formless

Re: How do you know that Satan is the evil one?
« Reply #48 on: July 30, 2014, 11:31:13 AM »
Two problems, Except in newly printed "satanic" texts created in the 1900's and internet forums. it's a VERY different story.

1. Islam is the only one in which he features prominently, and is where his fall from grace is recorded, and Milton's amazing work of fanfiction, his fall wasn't from standing between god and man on man's behalf. His pride and jelliously when god brought home the new kids (mankind) and told the angels to bow before them.
It reads like a kid throwing a temper tantrum.

G"You shall bow before and take care of my newest and greatest creation my children, mankind, cast in my image."
D"But they are so flawed, why should I bow to creatures made of mud when I am made of light?"
G "Because they are my greatest creation and because I said so"
D "you're wrong about this, so I'm better screw you dad, comeon guys anyone with me on this!"
G "Oh for the love of... stop picking on the new baby and go to your room."
D "Screw you dad MAKE ME"
G *grabs him by the ear* "okay Lucy that's enough"
D "But but but"
G "Now stay in your room and think about all the people you hurt!"
Read the Koran, it's the only book where he has any backstory at all. Even then he's not the cause of evil, he's just held up as an example of a child being punished for pride making him go against god.

2. The snake being the devil is not in canonical texts, but as both are tempters it was fashionable for Victorian era christians to connect the two, and thus Victorian "Anti-Christians" embraced the idea as much as their more numerous counterpart since it cast their particular favorite fan-made character in a better light
there's no basis for it.

As a Muslim ... I must say I found your impression quite amusing. * lost his breathe from genuine laughter. * No pun intended I swear. ;D

But yes , Ironwolf did provide the Islamic tale of Satan's fall from grace.

Now Allow me to portray it in a serious manner.

God created the Angels from light. And later on created man from mud. Upon Adam's creation , God ordered the angels to bow before Adam. All did except Lucifer. And his reason was that they were created from light , they were pure , they were god's first children. And human's were created from dirt.

And because of Lucifer's disobedience God was about to cast him down unto hell. However , Lucifer asked god for one last favor. Or rather , challenged God.

Lucifer said that can prove to God that Mankind is no better than him. And he'll show him how readily they'll be to disobey God himself. So he asked him to give him til the end of time. And by then , he'll show him how many of mankind he'd ruled to hell.

And this is how the Muslims view Lucifer. Lucifer's mission is to lead us astray from our path.

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Re: How do you know that Satan is the evil one?
« Reply #49 on: July 30, 2014, 11:41:35 AM »
Also, I believe the correct term in Islam is 'Iblis' (bringer of despair)?  With a pre-fall name of 'Azazael'?  (Might have too many z's there...)