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Author Topic: Do You Believe In God?  (Read 6686 times)

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Offline LostInTheMistTopic starter

Do You Believe In God?
« on: June 11, 2014, 02:30:53 AM »
I am 100% sure this has been asked before. But I do ask you. Do you believe in God?

Starting from Descartes' "I Think Therefore I Am" my college roommate and I came up with a 38-step logical progression that ended with the statement "God Exists". However, I cannot remember that logical progression. I know that it involved the ability to conceive of things that did not exist, which Descartes denied was possible.

In any case, I'm going to state right here that:

    I believe in God,
    the Father almighty,
    Creator of heaven and earth,
    and in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord,
    who was conceived by the Holy Spirit,
    born of the Virgin Mary,
    suffered under Pontius Pilate,
    was crucified, died and was buried;
    he descended into hell;
    on the third day he rose again from the dead;
    he ascended into heaven,
    and is seated at the right hand of God the Father almighty;
    from there he will come to judge the living and the dead.
    I believe in the Holy Spirit,
    the holy catholic Church,
    the communion of saints,
    the forgiveness of sins,
    the resurrection of the body,
    and life everlasting. Amen.

I am a (Protestant) Christian man, and I believe God exists. What's more, I KNOW he exists, because I have felt his presence in my life. He has aided me in more ways that I can count, and in ways that... well, ways that I feel uncomfortable discussing in person.

The point is, that to my mind, God exists. But I don't care if you do or don't believe in God. I believe that through the power of Jesus Christ, ALL souls are saved, not just those who believe in him. I cannot accept a God who would condemn a man (or woman) to hell, just because his (or her) beliefs don't happen to coincide with the true faith. So maybe I'm a heretic, maybe I'm doomed to hell.... But when you die... if I've already died.... I'll argue with St. Peter that you should be allowed entry. Win or lose.... I'm with all nonbelievers. :)

Online Blythe

Re: Do You Believe In God?
« Reply #1 on: June 11, 2014, 02:37:14 AM »
I do not believe in any deity, but good for you for being secure and proud in your faith.

Just a quick clarification, though:
    I believe in the Holy Spirit,
    the holy catholic Church,

I am a (Protestant) Christian man, and I believe God exists. What's more, I KNOW he exists, because I have felt his presence in my life. He has aided me in more ways that I can count, and in ways that... well, ways that I feel uncomfortable discussing in person.

I just wanted to inquire--you mentioned believing in your post in the Catholic church, but then stated you were Protestant? To my knowledge, the Protestant branch of Christianity came about when they wanted to reform what they saw as errors of the Catholic church, so I did not think these two were the same branch? I had assumed one could not be Protestant and Catholic at the same time?
« Last Edit: June 11, 2014, 02:38:54 AM by Blythe »

Offline LostInTheMistTopic starter

Re: Do You Believe In God?
« Reply #2 on: June 11, 2014, 11:55:43 AM »
It's the holy catholic church, not the holy Catholic church.

The word "catholic" means "including a wide variety of things; all-embracing". I know it can be a little confusing. It just means that I believe in larger body of faith than myself or the worshippers at my church alone.

And yes, the Protestant church came about when Martin Luther nailed his ninety-five theses to the door of All Saints' Church in Wittenberg on 31 October 1517. Though there had been movements against the Catholic church before, it was Luther's theses that really sparked the Reformation.

I'm a Lutheran (ELCA, not Missouri Synod), and some of the major differences between my faith and the Catholic faith are that Lutherans believe man is saved through God's grace alone, and Catholics believe that man is saved through a combination of god's grace and good works.

The Catholic church has seven sacraments (a religious ceremony or act of the Christian Church that is regarded as an outward and visible sign of inward and spiritual divine grace, in particular.) Those sacraments are Baptism, Confirmation, the Eucharist (also known as Communion), Reconciliation (Penance), Anointing of the Sick (formerly called Extreme Unction, one of the "Last Rites"), Holy Orders and Holy Matrimony.

The Lutheran church only has two sacraments, Communion and Baptism.

Some Protestant churches number the commandments differently and take "no graven images" more literally, meaning that you can't have pictures or stained glass windows or figures representing Jesus, but the Lutheran church doesn't follow that particular numbering of the commandments.

There are some other technical differences. In communion catholics believe in transubstantiation, that the bread and wine in holy communion become literally the blood and flesh of Jesus.

Lutherans believe that the bread and wine remain fully bread and full wine while also being fully the body and blood of Jesus.

Now you know! And knowing is half the battle. :)
« Last Edit: June 11, 2014, 12:33:51 PM by LostInTheMist »

Online Blythe

Re: Do You Believe In God?
« Reply #3 on: June 11, 2014, 12:18:39 PM »
Ah, thank you for the clarification; I had just been confused when you'd stated you'd believed in the Catholic church and were also Protestant, but your explanation clarifies that you are Protestant! Thank you for the explanation about the differences between the branches; it was very educational.  :-)

Offline Drake Valentine

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Re: Do You Believe In God?
« Reply #4 on: June 11, 2014, 12:21:43 PM »
What I believe?

I believe in the concept of there being a creator(and/or creators.) I just do not believe in Religion.

So I suppose I technically fall in an 'Agnostic' category, but more so on the wing of believing there may be some form of deity(ies), divinity, or whatever one wishes to perceive such forces.

Offline LostInTheMistTopic starter

Re: Do You Believe In God?
« Reply #5 on: June 11, 2014, 04:53:13 PM »
What I believe?

I believe in the concept of there being a creator(and/or creators.) I just do not believe in Religion.

So I suppose I technically fall in an 'Agnostic' category, but more so on the wing of believing there may be some form of deity(ies), divinity, or whatever one wishes to perceive such forces.

I don't know that "agnostic" is the right word if you believe in god or gods. Some people would call this "spiritual". If you neither believed nor disbelieved in God, then agnostic would be the right word for it. Of course, I may have read your post wrong.

Offline Oniya

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Re: Do You Believe In God?
« Reply #6 on: June 11, 2014, 05:27:48 PM »
I don't know that "agnostic" is the right word if you believe in god or gods. Some people would call this "spiritual". If you neither believed nor disbelieved in God, then agnostic would be the right word for it. Of course, I may have read your post wrong.

Technically, 'agnostic' means 'not knowing', from the Greek 'gnosis'. 

I am Pagan.  I believe in many gods.  I believe in male and female aspects to Deity.  Sometimes simultaneously.

I believe that your method of worship is just as valid as mine, as is your view of the afterlife.  I believe that when we die, we go to that place where we truly believe that we will go - heaven, hell, nothingness, the Summerlands, or even to the back of the admission line for another turn on the ride.  I know where I'm going, and no one will need to plead for me.  :-)


Offline Lux12

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Re: Do You Believe In God?
« Reply #7 on: June 11, 2014, 05:33:23 PM »
I believe there is at least one Deity with many faces in this world.  I see it's complex architecture in all the world around me even if it did not actively create it. I'm not a Christian but to quote the Rig Veda, "Cosmic reality is one, but the wise perceive in many ways." The Divine is so vast that I do not believe one vision can accurately sum it up. I do believe in Paradise and hell though. We are not actively sent there based on a verdict, but rather the sum of our actions in life reaps a karmic destiny.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2014, 05:34:53 PM by Lux12 »

Offline Aislinn

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Re: Do You Believe In God?
« Reply #8 on: June 11, 2014, 05:35:27 PM »
I generally stay out of PROC....mainly for my own sanity and peace! However, this topic caught my eye so I decided I wanted to weigh in.

I was raised Irish Catholic but not hardcore although my parents claim to not believe in God. Now, when I say 'raised', I mean by my extended family and not necessarily my parents. The standing rule in my house growing up was that if I wanted to go to church or explore religion/spirituality, I had to make my own arrangements to do so. I thought it odd...but I now understand that my parents were giving me space to develop my own spiritual beliefs without interference. This is a gift that I've extended to my own children.

Starting in my college years and to this day, I consider myself 'spiritual' without an organized religion. I've studied and continue to study the world's religions and spiritual concepts. I find the subject of religion and spirituality fascinating from an intellectual standpoint. I take bits and pieces from different religions and 'ways of life' and adapt them to my own when I find something that inspires me. I've taken quizzes from time to time and they always score me almost dead center in spiritual beliefs...a spiritual straddler, so to speak.

So back to the question at hand....do I believe in God? I believe in something of a higher power and I believe that there are simply things that we can not understand or comprehend but I'm not going to put a name to it.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2014, 05:38:36 PM by Aislinn »

Offline Pumpkin Seeds

Re: Do You Believe In God?
« Reply #9 on: June 11, 2014, 05:50:59 PM »
For the most part I was given the label of Deist in high school by a priest in my religious studies class.  He said the word with some disgust, but I looked up the definition and rather liked the meaning.  To this day I still remain under that label.  For me God is an idea and an entity.  I see God as a grand architect and also as a distant figure that does actually have compassion for this world.  Still, I do not think that our values and viewpoints are in line with an eternal figure.  I do believe that science is our greatest way to understand God, because by understanding the creation we can understand some of the creator.  Organized religion is something I view as useful and beneficial to society, but I myself do not belong to any organized group.  On some level I do not like to align myself with people that enjoy speaking for me, especially to a deity that can receive word from all of us. 

Offline Oniya

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Re: Do You Believe In God?
« Reply #10 on: June 11, 2014, 05:51:47 PM »
I believe Thomas Jefferson identified as a Deist, so you're in excellent company.

Offline LostInTheMistTopic starter

Re: Do You Believe In God?
« Reply #11 on: June 11, 2014, 06:04:37 PM »
Organized religion is a touchy subject for me. While I believe that most of the time, organized religion is a force for good, some of the greatest evil in the history of the world came out of religious belief. And even now, there are religious people who allow their children to die of treatable diseases because they believe in faith over medicine. There are also many people out there who hate homosexuals (or really any sexuality other than 100% straight as a razor), or black people, or white people, or muslims, and use religion to cloak their ignorance and their fear and to justify that hatred.

That said, I belong to my church, which is a part of my city's community of churches, which are all part of the state synod, which is part of the ELCA. I'm baptised, confirmed, and I am an active and voting member of my church. I even served on the Council for a year way back when.

Even so, I'm not usually comfortable with identifying as anything other than a Lutheran. Saying "I'm a Christian" often causes peole to leap to the wrong conclusion. I hate Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson.... I'm terrified of any leader who believes he or she is acting at the behest of God.... I don't think God causes natural disasters, or intervenes in sporting events, or saves one person from a train crash while allowing 200 others to die. (People who say "God was looking out for me" after surviving some horrific ordeal in which other people died really irk me.)

So you could say that I'm an "uncomfortable Christian". I've found my church, my little niche in society, my seat in the back of the room, and I like it.

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Re: Do You Believe In God?
« Reply #12 on: June 11, 2014, 06:07:45 PM »
I am Hindu, and believe that god is the intrinsic energy that fuels the existence of the universe, our emotions, and our being.  When I pray, I am meditating to tap into this rich energy that I believe permeates within everything and every being in life. It has helped me to get through some very tough periods in life.

It gives me a lot of peace of mind, and I accept every belief system as simply other interpretations of this.

Offline mia h

Re: Do You Believe In God?
« Reply #13 on: June 12, 2014, 06:08:40 AM »
Starting from Descartes' "I Think Therefore I Am" my college roommate and I came up with a 38-step logical progression that ended with the statement "God Exists". However, I cannot remember that logical progression. I know that it involved the ability to conceive of things that did not exist, which Descartes denied was possible.

I think you might have missed the point of the cogito which is to set up the idea that we can't "know" anything except that we exist as thinking things. I can't "know" that I am typing this and you can't "know" that you are reading this.

The problem word is obvious "know", because it many different meanings. There is a huge gap between "having belief in...." and "having absolute certain knowledge of..." and it's that second one that Descartes was after.

I know that it involved the ability to conceive of things that did not exist.

And here's your problem, just because you can conceive of something doesn't mean that it exists with absolute certainty. Because you can't be certain, Descartes' methodic doubt would reject it, or if you turn your textbooks to the writings of David Hume :
Quote
When we run over libraries, persuaded of these principles, what havoc must we make? If we take in our hand any volume of divinity or school metaphysics, for instance, let us ask, Does it contain any abstract reasoning concerning quantity or number? No. Does it contain any experimental reasoning concerning matter of fact and existence? No. Commit it then to the flames, for it can contain nothing but sophistry and illusion

So I would suggest that you "knowing" God exists is closer to you having absolute belief in God rather than you having absolute certain knowledge of God.
Having said that, you don't need your 38 steps, Descartes took a much shorter route:
The idea of God, exists.
In that idea God is perfect.
Descartes has no experience of perfection, so couldn't have created that idea.
Therefore only God could have created the idea of God

Online SweetSerenade

Re: Do You Believe In God?
« Reply #14 on: June 12, 2014, 10:19:16 AM »
I myself rarely step into this section of the site, but the title got my attention and I decided that I would step in.

Do I believe in God -

Yes, I do believe in God.

BUT, I do not believe he is MY God. Nor do I believe he is the appropriate God for me to follow. The religions that sprang from this God are ones I do not feel I fit in or belong. I had a very rough childhood with the Church. My Gifts and Talents often left me ostrasized and demonized. I was raised Roman Catholic, but I have been Catholic, Baptist, Christian, and finally Protestant. In all of these findings, all of these churches, not one felt like the right fit.

Then I found my fit, through dreams that lead me to the Faith of Gods I could truly believe in. I was brought to the Faith of the Celts, I do not say Religion for a reason (more on that later), I was lead to being a Druid. Many of us realize very quickly where we do and do not belong, some of us take a longer path learning as we go.

I believe that each Faith perceives the Deitic faces differently. But Religion differs based on what makes it a Religion. The biggest aspect of Religion, in my eyes, is Conversion. You are driven to the conversion of other individuals, most of the Mono-Deitic Religions are based around 'saving' people and 'opening' their eyes to the One True God. But for me, this does not feel right. My Faith allows me to share my wisdom and knowledge with others, to speak of certain things and share what I know. I do not ever try to convert people, but always leave an open door for learning.

As was said long ago "Who are we to judge another based on the God they follow? When all Gods are one God and all Goddesses are one Goddess. It matters not what we believe in, it simply matters that we believe."

Offline Retribution

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Re: Do You Believe In God?
« Reply #15 on: June 12, 2014, 10:31:03 AM »
It has been about 30 years since I had the college discussion on Descartes I recall it was a rather deep debate. I am Catholic and attended Catholic high school but that was more to get a private school education than for religious reasons. Oh as for the prayer when we say it, it is "Catholic Apostolic Church" for the differentiation between Catholic and catholic.

On to the question at hand, yes I believe in God. But even though I am Catholic I am probably more 'Spiritual' or however you would describe it. My children for example are much more religious than I am. My main issue with "church" is the people in the church. Honestly I see many who are pretentious and do not practice what they preach and I feel like they are more there to put on airs than anything having to do with God. Quite frankly it pisses me off. I am also a biologist by trade so I kind of have to believe in evolution and the like, but I am not so arrogant like the hard core creationists that I feel like I am qualified to tell God how he had to make the universe.

In short we all have to find our own truths so what works for me will probably not work for anyone else. But when I see the sun rise over a duck marsh I feel like there is certainly someone or something out there in charge and greater than me.
« Last Edit: June 12, 2014, 01:47:32 PM by Retribution »

Offline Beguile's Mistress

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Re: Do You Believe In God?
« Reply #16 on: June 12, 2014, 12:01:19 PM »
Do I believe in God?  Yes.

God has many faces and most people I know see one of them.  God has many names and most people I know use one of them except for my Jewish friends who don't say His name.  Those people I know who have the point of view that there is no God/god still respect the faith and beliefs of others.  Does it matter to me if you believe in God/god(s)?  No.  All that matters to me is how you treat yourself, others and their feelings.

My faith and belief has kept me going when I was a death's door, physically broken to bits, homeless and alone and broke.  Belief inspired two people who had more than enough to deal with in their personal life to make a home for me, help me heal and get me on my feet.  I've repaid the money they spent to keep me but I can never repay what they did for me when as trans* individuals they looked past their own problems to help someone in need.  They are the personification of Charity and taught me that no matter what someone else may do to us you need to be forgiving or you become bitter, you need to listen or you never understand and you need to respect others and what they believe even when, or especially when, they don't agree with you or you have no right to ask for respect for yourself and your beliefs.  You can do that without God/god(s) but they have chose to do it with God's help and so have I.

I'm approaching death a lot sooner that those who have 40 or 50 years left in their life span and with the help of God or what ever higher power or entity guides me I hope to do it with grace and dignity.
« Last Edit: June 12, 2014, 12:03:10 PM by Beguile's Mistress »

Offline DTW

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Re: Do You Believe In God?
« Reply #17 on: June 12, 2014, 12:20:54 PM »
I'm a straight up Apatheist as of the moment. I don't know. I change between Apatheism/Ignoticism/Pantheism but I despite atheism. How strange. I don't know. I like Apatheism. The idea that god's existence or non-existence is in material to society. It's true to an extant. We all debate our beliefs  , wage wars based on them , hate each other but our species continues grow and  prosper. What do we need God For? Or why do we need to debunk God? What does the debate add to our existence at the end of day? I don't see anything. It's just an argument for sake of arguing in my opinion.

I think that's why I dislike Htichen and Dawkins's so much. They argue and write books about their disbelief. So what? You don't believe in god. Yay! Or even better , you've disproved his existence. Who cares? Why does it matter? People will still go to church. They'll still read the bible. That's just human nature. To look the sky for answers that you can not find on the ground. That's why there's so many different religions. You can't debunk them all.
 People are going to believe what they , why try to change that if it's not hurting anyone? It's one thing to stop religious extremism but that's not what Hitchen or Dawkins does in my opinion. They take it too far. It stops being about the dangerous christian and about the quiet ones.

Offline Wajin

Re: Do You Believe In God?
« Reply #18 on: June 12, 2014, 01:04:14 PM »
I am a Zen Buddhist of the Sōtō Zen, or Sōtō school of Zen Buddhism. While I believe in he Buddha as a enlightened teacher, I, unlike some other Mahayana  Buddhist don't see him as anything but a human who achieved nirvana.  I don't feel entirely comfortable with the thought of there being vastly superior beings out there who find themselves unwilling to directly influence and guide humanity.

That being said, I do respect Christians, Muslims, Jews, Pagans, Hindus, those Buddhists who worship devas and other divine beings as well as  other worshippers of religions with gods, for their conviction and their faith, having myself converted from Islam to Zen Buddhism.

Offline mia h

Re: Do You Believe In God?
« Reply #19 on: June 12, 2014, 01:32:40 PM »
I think that's why I dislike Htichen and Dawkins's so much. They argue and write books about their disbelief. So what? You don't believe in god. Yay! Or even better , you've disproved his existence. Who cares? Why does it matter? People will still go to church.

There are two things that really annoy me about Dawkins :
1 - He clings onto Darwinism more tightly than Evangelical Christians hang on to their Bibles. There was a time when everybody knew that the Earth was the centre of the universe, just because a scientific theory holds right now doesn't mean that's always going to be the case.

2 - As a so-called scientist, Dawkins should use the correct tools to sway people to his viewpoint, things like evidence, reason & logic. But when you call your book "The God Delusion" then reason & logic have gone right out the window and you're not trying to convince anyone who doesn't already agree with you.

Offline Mathim

Re: Do You Believe In God?
« Reply #20 on: June 12, 2014, 03:12:30 PM »
There are two things that really annoy me about Dawkins :
1 - He clings onto Darwinism more tightly than Evangelical Christians hang on to their Bibles. There was a time when everybody knew that the Earth was the centre of the universe, just because a scientific theory holds right now doesn't mean that's always going to be the case.

2 - As a so-called scientist, Dawkins should use the correct tools to sway people to his viewpoint, things like evidence, reason & logic. But when you call your book "The God Delusion" then reason & logic have gone right out the window and you're not trying to convince anyone who doesn't already agree with you.

I really hope this doesn't come across as offensive. I want this to be truthful and critical but not condescending or mean.

About the half-baked Dawkins criticism (shit, I just blew it, didn't I? But calling him a so-called scientist was going way over the line, in my opinion), there's a critical point being missed here: A truly, dogmatically observant religious believer will almost always ignore the evidence presented against their side of the argument (primarily because something that is irrationally derived is indefensible in terms of empirical evidence), so ultimately if it doesn't mesh with their beliefs, it becomes invalid and that's all there is to it (think of what you'd try to do to argue against the Flying Spaghetti Monster, whether you are religious yourself or not, and you'll see my point).

Dawkins admits that if evidence of any sort to disprove either evolution or his disbelief in god, he will be forced, whether he likes it or not, to accept the evidence and change his mind which, as I pointed out, it not the method observed by those who base beliefs in nonmaterial existences. Also, Dawkins said it IN the God Delusion that he would be horribly presumptuous to believe even a single person would be converted by his book. It is intended for those who are wavering in their faiths to be able to make sense of why they might be slipping and why it might not be such a bad thing, but he doesn't have the attitude that it should then guide them into actual atheism afterwards (he actually considers author Douglas Adams to be his only convert, from a different book he wrote earlier). And I've listened to the audiobook repeatedly over the last several weeks, and there IS evidence presented of both a tangible and philosophical nature contributing to the argument against the existence of deities. If you take the dictionary definition of a delusion you'll see it's actually quite apt even if it offends people. He actually devotes some of the book to how language has this sort of effect in many other cases.

Anyway, for me the bottom line is, if we don't have an all-encompassing explanation of what the deal is with existence and all that, we don't have the right to posit a solution and leave it at that, not without evidence to support it; at best we can say it is our working hypothesis and that we should, in all fairness, be ready to gravitate elsewhere when the experiments prove unfruitful. So to assert this sort of belief is, however benign it may be in practice, rather arrogant and, understandably, makes the non-believer feel that they're surrounded by some rather skewed minds (when in the minority, it does make one a bit tense). The question this raises does seem inescapable: Why, of all the things in life, does this one thing get to slide by with no good explanation, and yet every other thing, from the opinions of the carpenters who built your sturdy, long-lasting shelter to the doctors who save your life when you'd otherwise keel over stone dead, needs so much reassurance from physical experimentation? I've never received a satisfactory answer to this, and for the reasons stated (revolving around the argument lacking any rational basis) I feel like I never will. I could, obviously, be wrong and would be happy to be proven wrong. But I won't hold my breath.

What I would like to ask of any and all believers, if I may, is: If you were to start tomorrow with the mindset of, "I'm just going to go about my business as if I didn't believe a god was there and never had been", would you really be tempted to act any differently, any more or less morally, any more or less concerned about the future, or the past? I was never so devout or indoctrinated as a child and so never felt the need to do this before discarding faith but I just wonder, for those not in that position, is this even a thought you might consider, even if you decide not to pursue it as a trial run? I would venture that it would not only be possible to live life as your normally do, but it would open your eyes to how easy it is to do just that for the everyday atheist; taking a leaf from Dawkins' book, I am aware of how presumptuous this would be, but the message about raising one's consciousness is something that we should all try to be optimistic about.
« Last Edit: June 12, 2014, 03:32:56 PM by Mathim »

Offline Sabby

Re: Do You Believe In God?
« Reply #21 on: June 12, 2014, 03:30:49 PM »
I don't believe in God, or any Diety for that matter, for one simple reason.

It is an extraordinary claim without sufficient evidence.

I think I'll limit my answer to that for now, as these topics tend to explode if you add too many personal thoughts :P

Offline Pumpkin Seeds

Re: Do You Believe In God?
« Reply #22 on: June 12, 2014, 04:30:16 PM »
Mathim, that seems a bit presumptuous though.  Just give up your beliefs and see how easy it is.  Just give up what you feel is important to yourself, your family and your friends and there you go.  That selfish arrogance is one thing atheists do share with their counterparts in the religious sections.  Just do what I say and see how much better everything is.

Offline Sabby

Re: Do You Believe In God?
« Reply #23 on: June 12, 2014, 04:39:40 PM »
Mathim, that seems a bit presumptuous though.  Just give up your beliefs and see how easy it is.

It's actually pretty easy. I've discarded beliefs that were important to me, simply because I received new information that showed me they were wrong. Belief doesn't have to be comforting to be correct. If you have trouble discarding a belief, you likely don't hold it for logical reasons.

I believed for years, with all my heart, that UFO's were real. Later in life, I reviewed that belief logically and found I had no basis for that belief. So I discarded it. Simple as that. It's not heart wrenching.
« Last Edit: June 12, 2014, 04:41:57 PM by Sabby »

Offline Beguile's Mistress

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Re: Do You Believe In God?
« Reply #24 on: June 12, 2014, 04:40:43 PM »
Some people are arrogant and selfish but not all of them.  Most people I know are of the live and let live variety because I can't abide any sort of person who tries to bully people for any reason so I avoid them.