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Author Topic: Minimum Wage Jobs (was Things that make you feel negative)  (Read 2516 times)

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Offline BAMF

Re: Minimum Wage Jobs (was Things that make you feel negative)
« Reply #25 on: June 11, 2014, 01:11:12 AM »
They did do something.

Something valuable and important.

Something you owe, owe greatly, to an extent you can never repay.



They raised you.

This, so much this. Thank you Cycle for saying what I was thinking.

My family? What mattered most to them was family. And I think that's the case for a lot of blue collar workers. They didn't necessarily care about the things going on around them as long as their family was taken care of. And you know what? They made my mom, who went back to school in her late 40's, and is now pursuing her doctorate. Know what her parents did? Her dad was a farmer, and her mom was a nurse. But they worked blue collar jobs so their children were able to have a good life of their own to choose what they wanted to do.

Just because someone doesn't have a thirst for knowledge or higher education or activism or a cause greater than their home doesn't make them less than. Instead, they are just as important. Without them, the people who are making a noticeable change in the world wouldn't exist. And if you want to be one of those people, you might want to think about thanking your family for providing you with what they did. You wouldn't be able to be the change you want to be without them.

Offline Iniquitous

Re: Minimum Wage Jobs (was Things that make you feel negative)
« Reply #26 on: June 11, 2014, 01:24:11 AM »
Want to know something?

My parents never raised me to understand you don’t judge a person by the color of their skin. Matter of fact, I grew up hearing the N word every time I turned around. I learned not to judge a person by the color of their skin on my own - by going to school and becoming friends with those not like me. My parents never taught me anything about trying to better the world. I learned it on my own. I reached a certain age, I grew curious, I started learning on my own. Do I blame them for their views? No - they are a product of their generation and at their age change is not going to happen.

And you know what? My dad served two tours in Vietnam. Nearly died on his second tour. What did he get when he got back? Spit on. Insulted. Called a murder. Hell, they don’t even teach Vietnam as a war anymore. It’s taught now that it was a conflict and the thousands that died are disrespected by those that say it was wrong to send our boys and men over there. You know who I think are bad people? The ones who can disrespect those that served because they think it was wrong.

Your grandfather is not a bad person because he focused on his life, his world. And again - you do not know what his reasons were. You do not know why he lived his life the way he did. You do not know what his thoughts and his beliefs were. A lot of people were content to keep such things to themselves. And that does not make them bad people.

Here’s my take on this. You are going to go on saying anyone that doesn’t devote their lives to what you think needs to be done is going to be a bad person. You have high ideals that no one is going to live up to. Maybe when you get a few years under your belt and your start seeing what life is really like you’ll look back and realize that your grandfather wasn’t this horrible man just because he focused on providing for his family.

Offline Sel Nar

Re: Minimum Wage Jobs (was Things that make you feel negative)
« Reply #27 on: June 11, 2014, 01:40:43 AM »
The Only Thing Necessary for the Triumph of Evil is that Good Men Do Nothing.

I'm going to Dissect this one point at a time, using what I know of those points in time.

Quote
This isn't about a Job. This is about our responsibility as humans. My Grand Father sat idly by as nineteen year old kids were sent off to die alone in a foreign. Don't tell me that because I think that makes him a bad person , That I need to grow up.

You say your grandfather sat idly as young men fought and died in foreign lands; assuming he was working in a factory during World War 2, He would be considered Essential Personnel, and not allowed to enlist; skilled workers, able to make parts for tanks, planes, ammunition, or even ships were always in short supply for the duration of the war, and skilled factory workers were basically told that the best thing they could do for the war effort was to help retool their factories as per the needs of the nation's military.

Quote
My Grand Father sat idly by as people pelted MLK with rocks and bottles. Swore at him , spit on him and what he do? Nothing. He didn't even explain to his own daughter that that was wrong. That treating people differently because of the color of their skin was incorrect and you all want to paint him as some sort of hero?

When MLK's civil rights movement started gaining traction, it was not considered 'wrong' to consider people of colour to be second-class citizens, at best. Remember, it had been barely a century since Slavery had been abolished, and, assuming your grandfather was born in the 20's or early 30's, he had spent essentially all of his formative years being taught that people with different skin colour were, at best, beneath his notice. As far as John Q. Public cared, what was going on with black men and women meant slightly less than a note in the morning newspaper, as they were busy being concerned about making enough money to feed his kids.

Quote
And I'm just looking at the 60s. He lived during the 70s ,  Women's Liberation and what he did do? What did he do for his daughter? Nothing. Let her get a job in a factory at seventy. In the 80s when AIDS plagued the gay community , what did he do? Go to a luncheon? No. Give money? No. Anything? No. He sat by while the world around him suffered and did nothing and by asking him to do anything to find any cause in his life worth fighting for makes me a bad person?

Shall I assume that your mother was old enough to make her own decisions at that point, considering you mentioned her getting a factory job? Was he deliberately preventing her from doing things like providing for her family, or was he encouraging her to stay at home, barefoot and pregnant? If neither of those assertions were true, which can be inferred by your stating that he 'let' her get a factory job, well, he did more to support women's rights by the simple expedient of not saying 'no, you can't get a job at a factory.'

In regards to HIV/AIDS, did he have any family members that were infected? Did he have friends that were infected? Did you expect him to overturn 60-some years of ingrained cultural bigotry overnight simply because of a disease that, according to all the news sources of the time, only affected 'Ankle-grabbers', when he was probably wondering how he'd have enough money saved for his likely-impending retirement? Speaking as someone whose father died from complications from HIV/AIDS, I can honestly say that your grandfather's position at the time is wholly unsurprising, and hardly something to condemn him for. If were were to condemn everyone that didn't do a damn thing about HIV/AIDS when it was first announced, then there'd be some 99% or more of the world in the prison made up of scorn and hostility that you seem to espouse.

Quote
It's not even about fighting. It's just about sleeping. The fact that he could sleep easily at night knowing that this was the world he had given his childern bothers me. It truly does. Maybe I'm wrong though. Maybe it did but my mother  didn't tell me. From what I've been told none of this bother. None of it matter to him. MLK , Robbie Kennedy , John Lennon , Jonestown , The Challenger. None of these tragedies. Real honest to gooodness tragedies bothered him or a caused a moments  hesitation in his daily routine. That's not right in my eyes. It's not acceptable.

In my opinion, he could sleep easily at night knowing that he did what was In His Power to try and make things a better place for his children. MLK's death was sad, yes, but it's not something he could have predicted, or prevented. Nor Robbie Kennedy (Speaking as a Canadian, by the by, Who the Hell is he?). Lennon was killed by a nutcase; Did your grandfather know either man personally? I doubt it. Was he at Jonestown, or did he read about it in the newspaper, or hear about it on the radio? The Challenger. Did he work on it? You point at moments in history which had a large public outcry, and blame your grandfather for not weeping, wailing, and gnashing his teeth when it would have amounted to nothing.

Would you castigate me for not donating money to survivors of the 9/11 attacks? I mean, I was only in high school at the time, and I live only a thousand kilometres away from New York, so clearly it must have been a massive formative event that completely changed my worldview, instead of me watching the TV in the school library for an hour, then returning to my homework because I wanted an A grade in my chemistry class. We remain detached from major events, because we are almost never involved in major events. I cannot find it in me to blame your grandfather for doing what it human nature; saying 'not my problem' to something that happens hundreds or thousands of kilometres away, and trying to get enough money to feed his family.

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Re: Minimum Wage Jobs (was Things that make you feel negative)
« Reply #28 on: June 11, 2014, 07:50:21 AM »
It's unusual to approach this topic from such a negative standpoint to judge people living their own lives for not doing more good. I think a lot comes down to the fact they are or were these people's lives to lead any way they saw fit. At any time in history, you could choose a significant event or a debate and say 'this person isn't contributing to it'. Not everyone wants to involve themselves in these, and that's where free will comes into it, at least some of the time. I'm guessing that you may have been heavily judged in the past, otherwise why judge another for doing their own thing?

There's a difference between not contributing to a certain conflict, issue or debate when you're an active part and someone is standing in front of you, and just choosing not to be involved in it and leading a quiet life, minding your own business. I'm one of those with degrees left, right and centre and it hasn't done me a lot of good in my day-to-day life. I get questions from relatives, 'you've studied all of these things. Why aren't you putting them to use? I tried to explain to 'so and so' about how your job relates to what you studied." Oh, it didn't. Not even remotely. A solid job and experience doing it can be worth more than a degree, because that's what a lot of employers look for. It is possible to educate yourself into a corner, where people don't want to hire you because you've specialised in something else and they don't think you're interested/content in whatever job it is they're offering. It's also possible to be educated and not care less about politics. I don't vote. No interest whatsoever and I don't live in my home country.

I genuinely think it's more a matter of free will, though. A man has a right to lead his life, the way he sees fit. You can judge all you want but this isn't about you. Just as what you have is important in your life, what he has is important in his. He may not have done things that bolstered the family's status or anything like that, but it sounds like he did what was expected of him, which was mainly looking after his family. I don't think a man can really be faulted for that.

I was one of those when I was younger who was going to do this, that and the other. As time passed, I kind of came to think that what does success even mean? You define it for yourself. Society doesn't care what you do and who is worth impressing? It's a collective of people doing their own thing, and caring what others think or not. Instead of aiming for that, I'm more dedicated to doing what makes me happy and those things I enjoy.

As uneventful as his life might seem to you, maybe he had that covered.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2014, 07:52:29 AM by AmberStarfire »

Offline ThePrince

Re: Minimum Wage Jobs (was Things that make you feel negative)
« Reply #29 on: June 11, 2014, 09:09:08 AM »
To answer your question DTW, you dont have to deal with your family if you dont like them. You get a job, get your own place and become independent then you never have to hear from them again.

I only deal with my family a few times a year and thats when I want to see them.

Offline consortium11

Re: Minimum Wage Jobs (was Things that make you feel negative)
« Reply #30 on: June 11, 2014, 09:54:33 AM »
It's unusual to approach this topic from such a negative standpoint to judge people living their own lives for not doing more good.

It's a fairly common one in moral philosophy pretty much regardless of the branch. Kantian ethics (or other duty theories), utilitarianism, even virtue ethics. In truth, one of the biggest criticisms of pretty much all moral theories is that in the end they view the vast, vast, vast majority of the human race as having been, in short, scum.

Offline DTWTopic starter

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Re: Minimum Wage Jobs (was Things that make you feel negative)
« Reply #31 on: June 11, 2014, 01:22:57 PM »
I'm going to Dissect this one point at a time, using what I know of those points in time.

You say your grandfather sat idly as young men fought and died in foreign lands; assuming he was working in a factory during World War 2, He would be considered Essential Personnel, and not allowed to enlist; skilled workers, able to make parts for tanks, planes, ammunition, or even ships were always in short supply for the duration of the war, and skilled factory workers were basically told that the best thing they could do for the war effort was to help retool their factories as per the needs of the nation's military.

When MLK's civil rights movement started gaining traction, it was not considered 'wrong' to consider people of colour to be second-class citizens, at best. Remember, it had been barely a century since Slavery had been abolished, and, assuming your grandfather was born in the 20's or early 30's, he had spent essentially all of his formative years being taught that people with different skin colour were, at best, beneath his notice. As far as John Q. Public cared, what was going on with black men and women meant slightly less than a note in the morning newspaper, as they were busy being concerned about making enough money to feed his kids.

Shall I assume that your mother was old enough to make her own decisions at that point, considering you mentioned her getting a factory job? Was he deliberately preventing her from doing things like providing for her family, or was he encouraging her to stay at home, barefoot and pregnant? If neither of those assertions were true, which can be inferred by your stating that he 'let' her get a factory job, well, he did more to support women's rights by the simple expedient of not saying 'no, you can't get a job at a factory.'

In regards to HIV/AIDS, did he have any family members that were infected? Did he have friends that were infected? Did you expect him to overturn 60-some years of ingrained cultural bigotry overnight simply because of a disease that, according to all the news sources of the time, only affected 'Ankle-grabbers', when he was probably wondering how he'd have enough money saved for his likely-impending retirement? Speaking as someone whose father died from complications from HIV/AIDS, I can honestly say that your grandfather's position at the time is wholly unsurprising, and hardly something to condemn him for. If were were to condemn everyone that didn't do a damn thing about HIV/AIDS when it was first announced, then there'd be some 99% or more of the world in the prison made up of scorn and hostility that you seem to espouse.

In my opinion, he could sleep easily at night knowing that he did what was In His Power to try and make things a better place for his children. MLK's death was sad, yes, but it's not something he could have predicted, or prevented. Nor Robbie Kennedy (Speaking as a Canadian, by the by, Who the Hell is he?). Lennon was killed by a nutcase; Did your grandfather know either man personally? I doubt it. Was he at Jonestown, or did he read about it in the newspaper, or hear about it on the radio? The Challenger. Did he work on it? You point at moments in history which had a large public outcry, and blame your grandfather for not weeping, wailing, and gnashing his teeth when it would have amounted to nothing.

Would you castigate me for not donating money to survivors of the 9/11 attacks? I mean, I was only in high school at the time, and I live only a thousand kilometres away from New York, so clearly it must have been a massive formative event that completely changed my worldview, instead of me watching the TV in the school library for an hour, then returning to my homework because I wanted an A grade in my chemistry class. We remain detached from major events, because we are almost never involved in major events. I cannot find it in me to blame your grandfather for doing what it human nature; saying 'not my problem' to something that happens hundreds or thousands of kilometres away, and trying to get enough money to feed his family.



He  was  a child during world war two. I was talking specifically about Vietnam. and our people here really justifying his behavior as  righteous? A selfish life is alright because others were selfish when he was raised? How does that make it  right? So what if society saw racism as acceptable during MLK Jr's Rise , it was and is not acceptable.  Simply following the  crowd is not an excuse. This is the same tired lie people use to justify the horrendous actions of  certain German Citizens in World War Two. It's 2014. Stop making excuses for  bad people or people who allow the world to get worse. I'm not saying they should be in prison. What I'm saying is that they should not be seen as heroes or decent folk. My Mother should see her father for what he truly was , a selfish man who only  cared about himself and his family. That he never worried a second about others or the future of his own people. Of his own country. Of his own family.

Human nature isn't an excuse! Come on! It's human natures for dogs to be violent but when they bite the faces off of their owners we don't shrug and go on our way as if nothing happened. And will  most people ever live up to my ideals? No but I'd rather die wishing  for my species to improve then to  live a man who saw nothing but greed and conceit when he looked into the faces of his generation.


By making excuses for people who do bad things and allow bad things to happen , we allow them to happen ourselves. What ever happened to Personal Responsibility? What ever happened to Civil disobedience  and   Nonconformism? By pretending my grandfather is pious for simply going to work and raising his kids , we devalue the actions of people who have purposely tried to improve the human condition.


And I'm not going to change with a few years under my belt because five or ten years from now there's still going to be suffering in the world and  it will still be a product of the malignant indifference people like my grandfather has for others.


And human nature? Really? If it was human nature , then why do humans like Rosa Parks and Bobby Seale exist?  Magic? Divine intervention? Aliens? Come on. That's a cop out and you know it. And no I don't respect my grandfather for create because he didn't. I'm more a child of Thoreau and Camus worker who ignored the suffering of his people.

Offline Callie Del Noire

Re: Minimum Wage Jobs (was Things that make you feel negative)
« Reply #32 on: June 11, 2014, 03:32:08 PM »

 The Only Thing Necessary for the Triumph of Evil is that Good Men Do Nothing.

And how do you know he didn't? Not every evil is foiled by big acts.. some are countered daily by folks simply communicating with one another. You dismiss a life you didn't have to live. You didn't see what acts of kindness that might have been done by simply helping out someone or holding a door or speaking up in the work place.

You claim that he did nothing? How do you know? Did you walk the long trail of your grandfather's life and know every moment of it? My grandfather worked sixty years in the same drug store, till the mill was shut down and nothing came to town for a decade or more. He's been in the ground a decade.. and every time I go home I hear stories from folks I never met during the 35 years of life I knew him in. "Bill served me at the counter, no matter what part.' (A black woman who surprisingly knew him after all these years) or the folks he held out when they were short ("Bill had a kind word and wasn't afraid to step up and be heard')

Your outlook on a life you never lived, and dealing with things you never had to deal with is astonishingly shallow. In your grandfather's time terrible things changed. I would have gone to jail for dating on of my girl friends, because she was of 'other ethinic background' (She was african american) and doing it across state lines. (The Mann Act). We had no rights or protections when the police took you into custody (The Miranda statement).

There is a truism.. 'Judge not least you be judged'. Don't assume you know what he did/didn't do because his life doesn't fit in yours.

I'm done.. there is no merit to debating/discussing this any further in my opinion. You clearly are looking for an affirmation on your outlook that you won't get here without further evidence beyond the vague commentary on the lives of those in your family you clearly don't understand.

Or to quote my grandmother, to whom you might look on as a 'nobody' having spent 80 years as a mother and housewife..

'Big actions require a foundation of small ones to take root'
.. Her comment on the civil rights movement.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2014, 03:43:32 PM by Callie Del Noire »

Offline Formless

Re: Minimum Wage Jobs (was Things that make you feel negative)
« Reply #33 on: June 11, 2014, 03:55:04 PM »
They did do something.

Something valuable and important.

Something you owe, owe greatly, to an extent you can never repay.



They raised you.

This. I can't say it any better.

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Re: Minimum Wage Jobs (was Things that make you feel negative)
« Reply #34 on: June 11, 2014, 04:16:06 PM »
I normally try to stay out of discussions in this forum, but I wanted to ask a question of the OP.

In your life up to this point, what sort of things have you accomplished? You are so down on your family for merely 'existing', I'm curious if you've done any of the things you've mentioned they should have done? 

By your definition, my life is pretty meaningless.  I'm have been a stay home mom for almost 10 years.  Before I quit my job to raise my children, I worked a low paying job for nearly eight years.  I've not done any of the things that you demean your family of.

However, in my opinion, I am still doing good deeds for society.  I like to think of myself as a good person.  I am caring and compassionate.  I will do everything I can to help out someone in need if I'm able.  No I'm not famous, I've never done anything of major consequence.  I am a mother and a homemaker, and I think I am doing a good thing.  I am trying my best to raise kids that will one day be good people. 

They may never do any of the things that you've listed.  They may, like so many others in the world, struggle to get by, but so long as they grow up to be good people, that's good enough for me. 

I think you do your mother a great disservice by saying that her life had no meaning.  She raised you.  How you can say that is meaningless boggles my mind. 


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Re: Minimum Wage Jobs (was Things that make you feel negative)
« Reply #35 on: June 12, 2014, 12:33:11 AM »


 ;D

Offline roulette

Re: Minimum Wage Jobs (was Things that make you feel negative)
« Reply #36 on: June 12, 2014, 12:49:07 AM »


 ;D

I've been trying not to post in this topic, but I had to leave this +1 here!

Online Dashenka

Re: Minimum Wage Jobs (was Things that make you feel negative)
« Reply #37 on: June 12, 2014, 03:09:00 AM »

They're just losers. They did nothing for anyone. Not even their kids.

What did you do for anyone? What job do you have?




Offline Blythe

Re: Minimum Wage Jobs (was Things that make you feel negative)
« Reply #38 on: June 12, 2014, 10:48:11 AM »


 ;D

I love The Onion! I hadn't expected that one of their vids would be so oddly on-topic here, either!  ;D

Offline meikle

Re: Minimum Wage Jobs (was Things that make you feel negative)
« Reply #39 on: June 12, 2014, 06:48:03 PM »
Why? You are here. That implies that you write  and create and think. They didn't.
They didn't think?  That seems unlikely.  They didn't create?  You just went on a rant about someone whose job was working in a factory.  Do you know what factories are for?

Quote
No interest in learning about Anne Frank and her struggle
Do you go out of your way to learn the history of every civilian who keeps a journal in wartime, or is it just the ones whose censored diaries are published that are important?

Quote
I struggle with the reality of this species everyday. The Wars , The Famines , The  Bigotry and I try my best to fix it. Whatever little I can do.
If the best you can do is whine that not literally every single one of hundred billion humans to grace the Earth were storied scholars, you might want to do some self-reflection and figure out how you can actually start improving things.
« Last Edit: June 12, 2014, 07:16:27 PM by meikle »

Offline BlueMaiden88

Re: Minimum Wage Jobs (was Things that make you feel negative)
« Reply #40 on: June 12, 2014, 07:29:54 PM »
You speak as if your family was the scum of the universe just because they worked hard, tirelessly to care for their family, provide them with a warm, safe home, food, and love.  You act as if they were supposed to go out blazing banners and crusading against every cause.  Do you know, working for a factory job is TIRING. 
I have worked since I was 14, something rare for someone my age, but I did it because I knew that I had a little extra energy and my family needed the money.  Presently, I work retail, making just over minimum wage, even though I have a college degree, and I'll tell you what: 8 hours of unpacking freight makes me feel like a ghost of a person.  There have been times that I've come home from work, resolving to clean something or to try to make something and I find myself waking up next to a bucket of ice cold mop water, asleep in the laundry basket, or curled up around my craft supplies because I simply did not have the energy or the strength to do anything else.  I have 7 books that I've bought and intended to read, but I'm so tired after work that I can't read more than a few sentences before I find myself asleep.
The fact that they worked in a factory and still had time to see about their children, to raise and love them, to clean the house, mow the law and cook for them says a great deal about their strength.  They did not know anything about working a desk job that would have afforded them more energy to 'do something great' with themselves.  They only knew to work, provide and care for their family and they did what they knew to do with gusto.

It doesn't mean that they are some sort of lesser subhuman.  It only means that they didn't KNOW or have the means to do anything else.  Don't judge them for what they didn't do.  Judge them by their deeds.  They were good at being parents and providers for their children.  They didn't beat each other or waste the money on alcohol or drugs.  They spent it on their kids.  They spent it on building a life.

If you really, truly think of them as lesser people because they didn't go to college, get degrees, or go running around fighting for change instead of taking care of their house and home, then take a long look at yourself.  You came from THEM.  That means that everything you find disgusting about them made it into you, whether you like it or not.  It makes you who you are.  You can make it look like you've been victimized, or you can see the value in what's been passed down to you.

Your worth isn't the sum of your parts, it is what you do with what you were given.  I imagine your grandparents had nothing or close to it.  They clawed their way to a better place so that their children might have a better opportunity.

Offline Iniquitous

Re: Minimum Wage Jobs (was Things that make you feel negative)
« Reply #41 on: June 12, 2014, 08:01:17 PM »
They did not know anything about working a desk job that would have afforded them more energy to 'do something great' with themselves. 

I wanted to address this one sentence. A desk job does not afford the worker more energy. I work a desk job and by the time I get home I am mentally dead and feel just as drained as someone who works a physically demanding job. Work is work is work and the end result on the human body is the same - exhaustion.

Offline BlueMaiden88

Re: Minimum Wage Jobs (was Things that make you feel negative)
« Reply #42 on: June 12, 2014, 08:22:04 PM »
I've worked both.  I find physical labor to be more draining, but that could be because I'm always worried that I'll have a seizure while I'm lifting something and accidentally kill myself.

Offline Ebb

Re: Minimum Wage Jobs (was Things that make you feel negative)
« Reply #43 on: June 12, 2014, 08:30:13 PM »
You know, in all of my time here on Elliquiy I don't think I've ever read a thread in the "Politics, Religion and Other Controversies" board that evidenced such a unified consensus of opinion. I don't think there's been one post in this thread that supports a single aspect of DTW's original post.

DTW, members of Elliquiy tend to be, in my experience, thoughtful individuals with a very wide range of personal experience and personalities. What would it take for you to consider the possibility that you might be just dead wrong here?

Offline roulette

Re: Minimum Wage Jobs (was Things that make you feel negative)
« Reply #44 on: June 12, 2014, 09:29:38 PM »
Okay, I'm not sure DTW is dead wrong. Or rather — I'm making allowances that there's been a grievous miscommunication.

DTW knows his family, and we don't. While I wildly disagree with the outrage toward the traits he's described to us, I'm curious as to whether that outrage is misplaced. I wonder if there really is something "scummy" about his relatives and lack of ambition is the only thing he can actually recognize or denote. D has complained that we're painting his family members to look like heroes, and we are. We're outraged that he would say such things about such common and rather acceptable traits and are defending the idea of what those traits mean.

I think that's what he should be hearing. Maybe your grandfather is lazy, D. Maybe he's bigoted, careless, whatever you'd like to call him. We don't know and can't possibly know that. Honestly, I'm not sure that you can either, since it seems your struggling to form an image from what you've heard from your mother. But the fact is we don't know. So we also shouldn't be acting as if he's a valiant hero. He might have been an everyday hero. He might have been a total dirt bag.

But you didn't just say you don't like your family. Maybe that's all you meant to say, but you also said that lack of ambition and lack of involvement makes people losers. The reality is that a lot of people here work for low-wage jobs and don't really look to trouble themselves with the world's burden. You associate that with being a loser. You just called a bunch of us losers.

So really, I do think DTW is wrong. I don't know if he's wrong that his family sucks, but I'm fairly certain he's wrong about why.

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Re: Minimum Wage Jobs (was Things that make you feel negative)
« Reply #45 on: June 12, 2014, 10:59:22 PM »
Dear DTW,

As someone who worked a service desk at Wal Mart for several years before being a stay at home mother for the following 4, I have to say I am rather upset by this rant of yours. It's not necessarily because it inspires offense either. Achievement in ones life is entirely subjective, and it is not the slightest of stretch to assume that a normal, stable life in the generations before us, was the goal for most people. Heck, it still is the goal for most people. I know it was for me.

I never even had the prospect of college, because my parents simply didn't have the money. And you know what;? Not once did I ever hate them for that, because I knew they'd fought to get where we were, in a good life with a home and happiness. I wanted to be an artist or a singer, but considering my appearance I trashed the latter option, and fiddled with the first, coming to realize quickly that neither option would give me the life I really wanted. I still draw now and then, but my dreams simply did not fit my means or my circumstance, thus my goals had to change. I had always had the vague goal of being helpful, though I never aspired to be 'great' the way prominent figures of our past are deemed to be. I certainly feel no shame at all in my aspirations, nor should I be made to.

I eventually found my path to contribution in a rather unlikely place, one that gets completely ignored most of the time due to still overwhelming stigma. Mental illness is pegged to every rampage it seems these days, but no one knows how those afflicted with illness are really treated now, no one wants to know. But I learned it rather quickly out of nessecity, and, after a hiatus when I thought I would never be right for such a role, I settled into the place of Caretaker of some of the most swept under the rug people in the world.

Is it glamorous?; No, I had to collect a client's stool samples myself not too long ago....
Is it influential? ; Yeah actually, I effect the lives of people who really need help, and it keeps me coming back every day. Not everyone appreciates their existence the way that I, or my husband do though. In fact, there are cameras watching us from across the street, because apparently we're a negative presence, because you know, dem 'crazies'. >:[

Point is, change does not have to be massive to count. And, some measure of respect to those who made you, raised you and cared for you and taught you how to be this upstanding, passionate person is kind of due to be given from my perspective. But I would be foolish to assume you are just flat ungrateful, and so I will give you credit where it is due. You seem very driven, very solid in your beliefs. Just be sure all of that passion and drive is pointed in the proper direction.

Offline BlueMaiden88

Re: Minimum Wage Jobs (was Things that make you feel negative)
« Reply #46 on: June 13, 2014, 10:56:24 AM »
Okay, I'm not sure DTW is dead wrong. Or rather — I'm making allowances that there's been a grievous miscommunication.

DTW knows his family, and we don't. While I wildly disagree with the outrage toward the traits he's described to us, I'm curious as to whether that outrage is misplaced. I wonder if there really is something "scummy" about his relatives and lack of ambition is the only thing he can actually recognize or denote.

While I can usually appreciate an open mind, on this particular topic, I don't think you or the OP fully grasp how his argument is wrong.  You claim that we don't know anything about his family's character, but you cannot make that argument without knowing his family's character yourself.  Drawing speculation as evidence is weak and in court, would have your case thrown out.  All we have to go on is the OPs descriptions.  If you want to argue in favor of his stance, you need to use the evidence he's provided.  Other commenters have even ASKED for clarification as to what he meant by his statements.  He provided more weak 'evidence' as to their lack of worth to society.

You cannot pay me to believe that he can't articulate the flaws of his family because he is OBVIOUSLY much better at writing and constructing a well-planned point than some of the people here who older than him.  He claims they had a lot of children and that all they did was work.  He complains that they weren't key figures in big political events during the era they lived in, as if it's a crime to want a normal, safe life for your family.  He points out their work as uninspiring, tries to claim that the lack of education made them lesser human beings without grasping the other sides of the equation that was their life. 

Just because your grandparents aren't rich, public figures, who were pictured in the newspaper under headlines for the civil rights movements doesn't mean they are worthless.  And just because you don't know someone's life story, detail by detail doesn't give you the right to claim that they are 'horrible people'.  The only horrible thing is judging them for doing the best they could and supporting someone's rights to judge them.

Offline Iniquitous

Re: Minimum Wage Jobs (was Things that make you feel negative)
« Reply #47 on: June 13, 2014, 12:08:56 PM »
I am going to go through this point by point.


“It’s hard as someone like myself to deal with the fact that my grandfather worked at a factory. He only graduated high school. He did nothing with life and I look back and I bring it up  conversation with my mother that maybe he could have set a better example for her and she gets made and I don’t get why. He was not good at all. He did nothing with his life. He worked in a factory his whole life and so did he wife. He wasn’t even like supervisor.”

I seriously doubt his grandparents were “lazy”. They held down jobs in a factory.  No mention of either of them constantly changing jobs - matter of fact, the impression given is this couple held down the same job till retirement.

“He didn’t read. He never volunteered for anything. He was uncultured… degenerate essentially. He wasn’t a drunk and didn’t beat his wife but he did nothing good. He just existed and wasn’t a  good dad because I said to her, Did you dad ever tell you to go college and tell you to make something and he didn’t. My mom went to work at 16. That’s pathetic and she worked at a factory. Thankfully during my childhood she bettered herself and went to work at a hospital but I mean this family is a bunch of loses. They don’t own business. They don’t have degrees. They’re not good people and it’s hard for me to deal with that and know how to talk about them without sounding like I dislike them… because I do.”

One. I would suggest a dictionary.  Degenerate: An immoral or corrupt person. To quote Princess Bride ‘I don’t think that means what you think it means.’  The only  way degenerate applies as a descriptor of the grandfather is if the man was immoral and/or corrupt. Nothing in the opening post gives off the feel that this man was a degenerate. Two. ‘Not a good dad’ based solely on the fact that he did not tell his daughter to go to college and better herself. I’ll just flat out say this is a line of bullshit. The man worked as hard job (yes, factory work is HARD) to put clothes on his children’s backs. To put food on the table and a roof over their heads. He worked to pay his bills, buy gifts for his family. He raised them to be responsible adults. How do I know he raised them to be responsible adults? His mother got a job at 16. And by the way, it’s most assuredly NOT pathetic to get a job at 16. I was working as the neighborhood babysitter at 13, went to work part time at McDonald’s when I was 16. I’ve been working for  28 years. There is nothing pathetic about that - it’s actually commendable.

“They’re just losers. They did nothing for anyone. Not even their kids. It’s sad and I find it annoying that she doesn’t find at sad. She thinks it okay that this guy just did nothing with his life. Just had two kids and a wife and went to work for minimum wage in a factory and then died in his 60’s. Jesus Christ. That’s harrowing and she has no problem with that. ‘

Comes across as he thinks he has the right to tell other people how to feel. If they do not feel as he does, then they are wrong and he gets annoyed at it. Based on everything that he has posted so far nothing has been stated that would make me think his family is a bunch of losers. However, by this point I am offended because, well, I really do not like the implication that I am a loser because my life mirrors that of his family and if he thinks so little of them then I know what he thinks of me - and he doesn’t even know me.

“They were all terrible people too. Not just my grandfather. My Grandfather and Grandmother had like eight brothers and sisters a piece and they did nothing. I don’t have one great uncle who like climbed a mountain or became a mayor or a doctor or anything. They just popped more awful children and went to work for minimum wage. Nobody in this family for literal generations had done anything to make the world a better place or ease the suffering of others. They just did nothing and it drives me crazy. You would think … one of them would like go to college or open a soup kitchen or work at the ASPCA. NO! None of them. They are all just losers.”

Again, he needs to use a dictionary because nothing he has said up to this point makes his family members “terrible” They are not “bad”. He also needs to learn that most people do not look at the entire world. Their world is what is directly around them. Not too mention he simply DOES NOT KNOW if they did anything to ease the suffering of others. Did they go to church? If so churches will help those in need within the community and chances are good that his family members did help to ease the suffering of others. And chances are good that to them, ‘the world’ was their community. Why on earth would they think it imperative to stress, wail and gnash their teeth about people starving in Africa when they had to stress and worry about themselves? Guess what - it sucks that people out there  have such horrible lives. I hate hearing about the starving people, the people being killed because we humans haven’t figured out how to live together peacefully, the people dying because they have no access to doctors and medicine. But you know what? I can’t help them all. I have my own life, the lives of my children, my family to worry about. I have to take care of myself and my family first and there is precious little left over after that - and what is left over goes to the guy who sells “street newspapers” near work or the food pantry for the people in my community. Not to people halfway across the planet where I cannot even be sure the help would get to them.  And again, he is back to calling his family, and anyone like them, losers.

“Nothing good came from there existence. No donations to charity, no running a mile for cancer, no inventing the can opener. Just nothing. Didn’t even fight in any wars. They just came and didn’t do anything of note.

I can’t stand them. I really don’t like them and I don’t know how to deal with it. They’re just failures. That’s the only word for it. They didn’t do anything worth a damn at all and I don’t know how to reconcile with the fact that I should feel bad when bad stuff happens to them or feel bad that like seventy five percent of them are dead. Honestly, The difference between them being dead and alive is nill. They did nothing! Nothing at all! Nothing. Not a single thing in their life was important. Didn’t read my mother Shakespear or take her to a play or leave her a small fortune or paint! I would take a painter at this point. You don’t have to be a good painter. Just paint impressionism and you’d be the best person in my family for at least three generations.”


One. He has no way of knowing if any of them donated to charity - they could have put canned food in a box for a food drive at work or church. Pretty damn sure they didn’t have cancer/diabetes/whatever runs during that time. So he’s blaming them for something that didn’t even exist at that time. He is utterly incapable of empathy - to his way of thinking he should only feel bad for people if those people meet his criteria for being “good”. This is actually something that I would suggest seeing a doctor about - a complete lack of empathy towards those around you is worrying.  He completely misses the point that if his family had not existed then HE would not be here now to  disrespect them so heinously. 

And we end this fine little rant with him yet again leaving the impression that he views anyone and everyone who fails to live up to his standards as worthless. What I want to know is what has HE done with his life. How is HE any better than his family he hates so much,

DTW is flat out wrong here. He ignores the fact that someone cared enough to carry him to term, go through immeasurable amount of pain to bring him into this world, worked herself to the bone to give him a place to live, food for him, clothes for him, gifts for him - not too mention love him unconditionally. In his eyes none of that is important. Nope! They didn’t go to college. They didn’t have a small fortune to pass on. They didn’t have good jobs . They weren’t famous nor did they do anything he views as more important than love and provide for their family.

What he needs to learn is respect for his elders, some manners and some empathy for those around him.

Just sayin.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2014, 12:11:50 PM by Iniquitous Opheliac »

Offline roulette

Re: Minimum Wage Jobs (was Things that make you feel negative)
« Reply #48 on: June 13, 2014, 12:19:29 PM »
Blue, I clearly did not make my point very well. You only quoted the first half of my post. Did you read the rest of it?

I was making a sort of tongue in cheek statement by saying "Well let's be fair, he's not 100% wrong, just 99%." I then went on to explain how his familial relations with people we have never met may have distorted his views. I'm not excusing them, and nor am I trying to make a case in court. This is a discussion, not a criminal trial. I'm simply speculating on why he might mistakenly make the assumption that these traits make for losers.

If I want to agree with D, I know what image to call to mind when he says loser. Someone lazy and complacent, who passes on their complacency to others. Someone who is probably not particularly kind or open minded. Selfish and short sighted.

If I want to disagree, I can conjure the opposite: an unfortunate hero stuck in a rut, hard working and exhausted who only has energy left to think about his world, someone who greatly values his family and passes on those values.

I think there's a very real possibility that D's family is more like the first, in which his personal, original dislike of them can be warranted. The problem is that we're all arguing about something that is close to him and not to us. I haven't heard him actually say anybody who looks for and can't get a better job is a scumbag, specifically that anyone who was trapped in their circumstances was a loser.

I'm NOT agreeing with him, and I stated as much. But I figure we should take into consideration the circumstances that prompted him to say these things and that we do not know his family as well as he does. The descriptions he have given us are insufficient cause to dislike someone so strongly, but there may be deeper reasons he hasn't explained and possibly doesn't even recognize.

What I know for certain is we're not going to get anywhere trying to convince him his family is good people. It's too personal. It's personal to him. And I don't know what you guys want, but I don't care if he dislikes his family.

What I care about is that he realize why his rant was offensive to many of us (myself included) and hopefully that he realize the traits he listed do not a loser make. That people can legitimately have different values from fortune and fame and good will toward man and still be passionate and successful individuals that are still good for the rest of the world. They can be. They aren't always.

"Throw out the evidence" if you like, but I'm not here to win a court case. I only came here to discuss.

As far as I'm concerned, the rant was snobbish, entitled, whiny, and offensive. I just didn't see the need to repeat what everyone else has already said. It was an ill advised rant.


Edit: IO, this post doesn't take into account yours, but all I have to say is yes, for the MOST part, I agree. Just not 100%, and I thought I would mention my 1% dissent. But yes, guys, I hear you and mostly I agree. I'm only trying to give this guy the benefit of the doubt which may very well be too generous, I'm aware.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2014, 12:29:44 PM by roulette »

Offline Envious

Re: Minimum Wage Jobs (was Things that make you feel negative)
« Reply #49 on: June 13, 2014, 02:32:34 PM »
What an awful and ignorant rant. You have a misguided notion of worth, of accomplishment, and a wildly inaccurate sense of reality. You ooze resentment and uneducated entitlement. Your ill constructed outburst is a terrible habit of many 'uncultured degenerates' I might add. I find it hard to believe that this much pent-up angst is over your granddaddy's lack of motivation. Looking past your poorly articulated arguments, I'm going to say that the real cause of your abhorrence is that there aren't enough people working towards the betterment of themselves and mankind in general.

If such is the case, I would suggest locking this thread and starting anew. Also, I really wouldn't use family members as your evidence. Your blip of an existence does not set the pace for the rest of us, and it only opens you up to personal attacks (the veiled argument in the background here is that you're blaming grandpa for not inspiring mom, which is why you currently lead such a pointless existence right now). The only thing you've accomplished here is creating an arena where we fight on inconsequential ideas (using mostly a foundation of assumption) that don't really hit the point you're trying to make.