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Author Topic: Not another lame lefty thread  (Read 10543 times)

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Offline MethosTopic starter

Re: Not another lame lefty thread
« Reply #75 on: September 09, 2008, 04:50:25 AM »
You have to be kidding if you can tell me that mankind, as a whole, is morally the same as it was a thousand years ago. For every North Korea there is a South Korea. For every Saudi Arabia there is a England, A France, A Newfoundland, ect. ect. ect.

That is a stark contrast to the days where pretty much everyone was universally boned.

Did I ever say 'save the world', no, I said try to make an effort, dammit. If a man falls off a high ledge and hangs onto it for dear life- do you run over to pull him up, or do you stand by and do nothing?

By the looks of it, you're condemning humanity to fall off that ledge.

At the very least, grab his arm. Even if he still falls, you tried.

It's not imposing order. It's that instead of PREVENTING violence, you begin to seek ways to combat it. (Against your own people, no less)

Both are valid strategies... but if you should never omit prevention.

No I'm not kidding. I think people tend to do exactly as much as they think they can get away with. The only difference between people in a barbaric country and one in an orderly one is what they think they can get away with. Fear poses restraint upon the dark impulses which lurk within people. As I just pointed out "everyone" wasn't always as you put it 'just boned'.

Nor do I view the world through such simplistic scenarios as people hanging off a cliff. If you can't accept the reality of the world and its deficiencies that's your hang up not mine. I see the world as it is, imperfect and full of suffering and deem that unlikely to change with or without my intervention.

I don't share your adversion to violence. If its necessary so be it. I don't believe ridiculous lengths need to be gone to appease people to prevent it.

Offline MethosTopic starter

Re: Not another lame lefty thread
« Reply #76 on: September 09, 2008, 04:54:04 AM »
Exactly, as of now there is only one chance to reattach his fingers.

It's a very good chance. Quite certain to succeed perfectly.

And this story is told every single day.

Only if people like you have a say in making sure it continues. I'd rather it not.

Are you completely and utterly unfamiliar with the problem of mistreated diseases?

But again you said yourself that emergency care is already covered, his being rushed to the hospital emergency room would have been your opporunity to reattach the fingers. So really your advocating for the status quo with that particular scenario.

Many maladies are misdiagnosed mostly because a variety of illnesses present similair symptoms. But still I'm left asked "what's your point here?"

In any case further responses from me will have to wait till tomorrow. Its about 4 am.

Offline Vekseid

Re: Not another lame lefty thread
« Reply #77 on: September 09, 2008, 04:57:45 AM »
But again you said yourself that emergency care is already covered, his being rushed to the hospital emergency room would have been your opporunity to reattach the fingers. So really your advocating for the status quo with that particular scenario.

No, the emergency room will make sure he doesn't bleed to death.

Offline Inerrant Lust

Re: Not another lame lefty thread
« Reply #78 on: September 09, 2008, 05:05:16 AM »
No I'm not kidding. I think people tend to do exactly as much as they think they can get away with. The only difference between people in a barbaric country and one in an orderly one is what they think they can get away with. Fear poses restraint upon the dark impulses which lurk within people. As I just pointed out "everyone" wasn't always as you put it 'just boned'.

And yet that restraint (that an orderly society provides) has instilled a sense of justice and ethics in many people that would maintain such restraint even outside of society.

Even IF we're all bastards who would murder and rape at the first opportunity, the effect of society and government keeping us in line is undeniably more positive than the anarchy and/or immoral governments of previous generations.

Quote
Nor do I view the world through such simplistic scenarios as people hanging off a cliff. If you can't accept the reality of the world and its deficiencies that's your hang up not mine. I see the world as it is, imperfect and full of suffering and deem that unlikely to change with or without my intervention.

Indulge me in a better metaphor, then. :P

But...again, you label me an idealist. I KNOW how crummy the world is, that is why I strive to change it.

Clearly you're not an ignorant idealist- so that just makes you apathetic, which is far worse.

Quote
I don't share your adversion to violence. If its necessary so be it. I don't believe ridiculous lengths need to be gone to appease people to prevent it.

You misjudge me once again. I believe war and violence can be, at times, neccesary. But the scenario was defined thusly;

Cause: Getting rid of welfare.
Effect: People turn to banditry to feed themselves. Or open rebellion. Violence.

Riduculous lengths? Please.

Offline ShrowdedPoet

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Re: Not another lame lefty thread
« Reply #79 on: September 09, 2008, 10:20:12 AM »
Oh, how cute, I bet you're proud of yourself.

So you have no intention of discussion, reason, or debate, just trying to rile people up when people on these forums are watching friends and family suffer and die before their eyes?

You wonder why discussion here might get a little heated, or a little left leaning?

When I read your post I thought of one of them in particular. This person is a light to my life and one of the reasons Elliquiy exists, but they can't afford basic medical care. The world has given them nothing but suffering. My heart breaks every moment that I can do nothing for them.

But you don't care. You don't even know them. As far as you know, they don't exist. You haven't experienced a thousandth of the torment they have gone through, nor do yo have a thousandth of their cares, reading your posts.

You just come on, spit in their faces and make empty posts like that one. You haven't bothered to address a single point that I've made, and Heritikat is only seriously contesting one. And you know what? I was pissed off.

I still am. A lot of people are. People are dying, people are suffering, and people are starving. The economy has grown but most Americans are making less than they did eight years ago, and that's with two years of growth since the Democrats retook the House and Senate.

It's only natural for me to be a bit surprised and incensed when someone does not care. Don't you think?

This made me cry and it's very true. 

People are quasi-ego centric, they care about themselves, their family and their friends. The rest of the world by and large can go hang itself. 

system that guarantees people an equal result is simply designed to benifet the stupid or the lazy.

You know, this is why I look at the world and feel sick to my stomach.  This is the type of thing I think about when I'm deep in the darkness of depression.  You make me sick!

I am not lazy, I work HARD and for all my hard work I have NOTHING!!!  I burn day in and day out cause I know, KNOW, that I can't afford to live!  I can't afford to breathe!  And It HURTS!!!!  I am far from lazy!  And as for Stupid, I'm far from vane but I consider myself highly inteligent!

Instead of putting the engine into the plane and going "Well, I did my best. Let's hope it doesn't blow up in mid-air and kill 400 people." why don't we just take steps to make a better engine?

If by stupid and lazy, you mean those who find the idea of exploiting other human beings deplorable. Capitalism breeds greed and underhanded tactics before hard work and ingenuity. Because it works.

DAMN RIGHT!!!!

« Last Edit: September 09, 2008, 10:25:53 AM by ShrowdedPoet »

Offline Sherona

Re: Not another lame lefty thread
« Reply #80 on: September 09, 2008, 10:27:51 AM »
Quote
You know, this is why I look at the world and feel sick to my stomach.  This is the type of thing I think about when I'm deep in the darkness of depression.  You make me sick!

Do please calm down and keep the personal attacks away from the threads. thank you.

Offline Celestial Goblin

Re: Not another lame lefty thread
« Reply #81 on: September 09, 2008, 11:31:54 AM »
Social welfare states only worked in Western capitalist democracies because capitalism provided a functioning economy to pay for the socialist programs.

Akhem, this is quite true, though for fairness sake I have to mention that Russia was in a shitty situation even before USSR.
But anyway, a mix of capitalism and socialism(not what soviets did!) is probably the easiest and safest solution.

After my country freed itself from Russian-imposed communism, people didn't ask for ruthless anarcho-capitalism like Methos advocates but indeed, were quick to show support for moderate solutions. Many veterans of anti-communist activism became activists for social justice when democracy was attained. A man named Jacek Kuron comes to my mind. Political prisoner under communism, under democracy he created a program of goverment-funded kitchens dispensing free soup for poor and unemployed. He accomplished many other things of course, though the 'Kuron soup' remained a particularly popular term.

When people bring up USSR and it's failings as an argument against either modern socialism, redistributive policies in a capitalist state or goverment regulations of bussines practices, it shows really huge ignorance.

Also, to adress Kongming's comment that you responded too. Lenin didn't exactly limit his persecution to 'rich people who wouldn't let go of their money'. Lenin was a Bolshevik and Bolsheviks intensely persecuted all the other revolutionary factions whose ideology didn't mesh with theirs. Amongst those were democrats, moderate socialists, anarchists and others. The Russian revolution against the Tsar was not fought solely by communists, despite later propaganda claiming so!

Finally, as for Methos, I won't go to deep into argument. Vekseid said most things I would and he's more of a debater than I am. And I don't come to this forum for this sort of discussion in the first place.
I'll just add three criticisms:
1)At this point Methos seems to backpedal from his usual position. Of course help for those disabled to the point of being unable to work is admirable, but he seems to contradict everything else he wrote here. Why?
As for the poor? Were it up to me I'd eliminate welfare for all those except those that are disabled to the point of being unable to work.
2)Methos argues how humanity is no different than savages and how nothing in life is guaranteed and no one owes nothing to no one. But he seems to except the right to property from this. To property he clings as to a sacred right and feels 'entitled' to a society that enforces his rights at expense of everything else. While i don't oppose the idea of private property, it's important to bear in mind that private property is a human created concept, like everything else.
3)I've got family in Canada and talked to quite a few people from Canada on the internet. They don't claim their healtcare system is anywhere bad. I guess Methos's view is colored by his personal dislike of a socialized system.

Offline Inkidu

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Re: Not another lame lefty thread
« Reply #82 on: September 09, 2008, 11:54:08 AM »
Ves, I don't think it's right to say that only capitalism breeds greed. Greed doesn't stem from government, it stems from people not having everything they want, and lets face it that's not going to happen in any realistic economic model. Not even communism or socialism. Someone's always going to have something that someone else wants.

The idea behind capitalism is that a competitive market makes things fair. It was supposed to breed hard work and entrepreneurship. Which it does when everyone plays right, but not everyone plays fair and people cheat the system. People breed greed not an economic model.

If I trade with you some material for another material and it makes your standard of living 20% better and mine only 5% better this is one of the places capitalism breaks down. People don't see it five percent I didn't have before they see it as why did he get twenty? So is it capitalism's fault. Not by the long shot.


Offline Krule

Re: Not another lame lefty thread
« Reply #83 on: September 09, 2008, 02:30:32 PM »
Interesting discussion going on here, I feel a bit like I have to weigh, in part, due to some sympathies with Methos, at least with regards to not likly Obama's ideas all that much, but generally, I tend more toward the conservitive side of things then otherwise.  I do believe you can go too far with goverment sponsered health care, and welfare, but a good number of people who end up on those things are desperate, not lazy, I know, I've seen it... and my heart goes out to them.  Personally, I believe it is the responsiblity of careing individuals to do what they can for others.

However, I do disagree with several of his ideas, though my opinion of humanity is general is low, and I do believe that man has a tendacy toward evil, I must disagree with the moral aspect.  Most people are decent, or at least act decently... and more so then a thousands of years ago.   If this was not the case, then hospitals and schools would never haved reached the point they have today.

Compassion and caring are as much a part of human nature as revenge and anger, love as much as hate, hope as much as despair, laughter as much as tears, joy as much as agony, humans are capable of terrible evil, and yet amazing goodness.  People have given thier lives for others, out of love for humanity, or for God, and sometimes even people they never knew.  People have also killed, murdered and tortured others for power or pleasure. 

Offline Inkidu

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Re: Not another lame lefty thread
« Reply #84 on: September 09, 2008, 08:28:48 PM »
I don't think people are more apt to being evil, over good. I believe people are more willing to do what's easier over what's right and that makes them more susceptible to what is wrong. 

Offline MethosTopic starter

Re: Not another lame lefty thread
« Reply #85 on: September 12, 2008, 01:21:44 AM »
To return to an earlier point of mine regarding Europe and their failed experiment..Eurostats basically comes out and says its 7 years till Europe starts shrinking.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20080905.wreckoning0906/BNStory/International/

Briefly

"Eurostat, the European Union's statistics body, created a continent-wide frisson of alarm over the Aug. 31 weekend with a study bearing the innocuous title “Population and social conditions.”

The statisticians discovered that it will be only seven years – not 20 or more years as previously thought – until a population milestone is reached, the point at which deaths will outnumber births across the continent, something that has not occurred since the disease-ridden years of the 18th century.

In other words, as of 2015, Europe's population will no longer increase naturally. And, even with immigration at its current levels, that means that within the next generation, the European population will begin shrinking."


Further down

"The year 2060, as we shall see, is something of a demographic black hole. At the moment, 1 in 5 people on the continent is over 65. This means that the pension costs, public-health and transportation needs (and sometimes the housing and social-welfare requirements) of each senior citizen must be supported by taxes and other deductions from the incomes of just four working-age people (aged 15 to 64), presuming they have incomes.

As birth rates stay low and longevity increases, this gap will widen. By 2060, there will be 50 million fewer workers and 67 million more seniors, so the ratio will have changed to 1 in 3 – in other words, there will be only two working-age people to support each senior.

The costs of supporting the over-65 population are already the largest government expenses in many European states. This doubling of the ratio means that taxes will either have to increase dramatically – some speculate they may have to double – or the quality and level of public services will have to be slashed harshly without any commensurate tax cut. Either choice would badly wound the economy."

I'm going to raise a glass now to socialist non-breeding itself out of existance.

Offline OldSchoolGamer

Re: Not another lame lefty thread
« Reply #86 on: September 12, 2008, 01:48:23 AM »
I'm going to raise a glass now to socialist non-breeding itself out of existance.

So should we in capitalist countries keep breeding large families until we're eating Soylent Green wafers?

I'm not exactly sure what the motivation is for gloating over a population trend that's pretty much standard in every developed country.

Offline Sabby

Re: Not another lame lefty thread
« Reply #87 on: September 12, 2008, 06:09:05 AM »
O__O Did... I just step into Venezuala? Because this place suddenly erupted into a war.

Offline Celestial Goblin

Re: Not another lame lefty thread
« Reply #88 on: September 12, 2008, 08:44:58 AM »
"Another prophet of disaster, who says this ship is lost
 Another prophet of disaster, leaving you to count the cost
 Taunting us with visions, afflicting us with fear
 Predicting war for millions in a hope that one appears."

Lower population growth is a natural outcome of rising standarts of life, increased sexual freedom, gender equality and individualism. Switching Europe from it's current 'socialistic' policies to anarcho-capitalism or similar would do nothing to reverse the trend in itself. Some people just plain aren't into the whole 'penis into vagina' thing, you know?

The only challenge Europe faces right now is to overcome racism amongst it's populace and not only open the gates for immigrants but also let them assimilate, rather than ghettoize.

Otherwise, I think that offering many 3rd-worlders a chance for a better life is historical justice considering how many European countries were once colonizing the 3rd world and thus retarding it's progress.

Offline Valerian

Re: Not another lame lefty thread
« Reply #89 on: September 12, 2008, 08:52:54 AM »
Also, current predictions are that by about 2030, the U.S. will be in exactly that position itself, so if they're non-breeding themselves out of existence, we're only about twenty years behind.  Gloat while you can.

Offline Vekseid

Re: Not another lame lefty thread
« Reply #90 on: September 12, 2008, 01:42:57 PM »
Also, current predictions are that by about 2030, the U.S. will be in exactly that position itself, so if they're non-breeding themselves out of existence, we're only about twenty years behind.  Gloat while you can.

I'm pretty sure that is ignoring the US government's management of immigration rates. We draw up fifty-year plans for a reason and increasing (or, much more rarely, decreasing) legal immigration rates plays a huge factor.

Raw socialism is not the sole source of the EU's troubles. For a long time, Europe had some of the harshest immigration policies in the world, and when they finally open up, not only is it too late, but employment laws prevent many of the new immigrants - especially Muslims - from becoming gainfully employed for various reasons.

Offline Celestial Goblin

Re: Not another lame lefty thread
« Reply #91 on: September 12, 2008, 06:03:39 PM »
For a long time, Europe had some of the harshest immigration policies in the world, and when they finally open up, not only is it too late, but employment laws prevent many of the new immigrants - especially Muslims - from becoming gainfully employed for various reasons.
And racism, sadly.

Anyway, I won't likely be contributing to the discussion since I'll be gone (or barely lurking) for a few months.