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Author Topic: Not another lame lefty thread  (Read 10545 times)

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Offline kongming

Re: Not another lame lefty thread
« Reply #50 on: September 09, 2008, 02:39:32 AM »
Exactly, IL. And Methos has just proven what I suspected: that he's one of the born-into-a-good-position kind who are too self-centred to accept that the majority of people in poverty or even just "not that well off" are stuck where they are, and nothing short of random fate will enable them to break out of it and rise. The system is designed to keep them there, while the upper class float to the top like fecal matter, blissfully unaware of the problems and just assuming that their success is a result of hard work.

Occasionally someone does well as a result of hard work and/or clever thinking, although even then they're usually born into a lifestyle that lets them do that. I am one of those lucky ones, I was given the chance and I may end up becoming a pharmacist or even a doctor, using hard work and clever thinking to succeed and to help others. And some of that help will be going to people who can only afford it because our government feels it wasn't actually their fault for being born with debilitating health conditions or the like.

But it's rare that it happens as a result of their own work.

Likewise, there are plenty of people in poverty too lazy to try. But you know what? There are so many more who are trying, and their lack of results are sending a clear message to the others, encouraging the laziness. And then there are those who are simply rendered unable to help themselves.

But Methos has convinced me that he was born into a life of upper-middle class pseudo-luxury, and had the easy ride from there, and gets to play with the rules used for rich people.

Offline MethosTopic starter

Re: Not another lame lefty thread
« Reply #51 on: September 09, 2008, 02:39:41 AM »
No, but it would be economically beneficial for everyone else in the country to do so, which is the great irony of it. Returning a productive worker to the economy enriches everyone, while trapping them in nonproductive agony does nothing.

It's similar to the reason behind public education - it's a right in the United States and other countries because an educated workforce is economically beneficial to everyone.

Not to say that they aren't horribly mismanaged - both education and health care, but the primary driver of an economy is a productive workforce.

...not to mention, it's absolutely silly. You pay for emergency care anyway, research into odd and new diseases is always beneficial to those who come later. It does not make sense to outright deny care to people.

And yet cures for many forms of cancer have already been found, and one of my best friends just survived an episode of a very rare cancer. Alive today because of those who sought treatment before.

And everyone who doesn't, everyone who is forced to wait until it's too late, ends up depriving the world of someone who could have made something.



Please discuss Hitler / the Nazis in the new thread, thanks.

No offense Vekseid but a truly productive worker would be compensated to an extent that would allow them to afford health insurance. If you can't your likely an entirely replaceable worker.

Is it beneficial to keep everyone healthy? Perhaps but health care systems aren't designed to keep everyone healthy and working, they're designed to treat illnesses. A large portion of the money is thrown at the elderly who are not going to be made into productive workers again, or even ever be made well again. The claim that its an economic benefit is thus in my mine entirely unsubstantiated.


Offline Schwarzepard

Re: Not another lame lefty thread
« Reply #52 on: September 09, 2008, 02:49:16 AM »
Michael Moore is a complete tool. Most left-wing people know that. Yes, he's probably good at getting teenage rebels on his side, the ones that are sure that their parents are to blame for the state of the world, but in general, he talks a load of shit, makes things up to suit his agenda (much like any politician in that regard), and is generally annoying. Seriously.

We agree.


I can totally justify Lenin deciding an important factor of communism was to round up and kill all the people who were too attached to their wealth. I don't condone his decision to actually go ahead and do that, and he did many other things wrong, but I can see where he was getting at.

This is my response:

Quote
Oh, how cute, I bet you're proud of yourself.

So you have no intention of discussion, reason, or debate, just trying to rile people up when people on these forums are watching friends and family suffer and die before their eyes?

The soil of the Rodina drank the blood of millions because of people who think like you.  And it didn't even make socialism work. 

Communism ended hunger in Russia, not for Russians but for the rats and cockroaches that feasted on their corpses.

Social welfare states only worked in Western capitalist democracies because capitalism provided a functioning economy to pay for the socialist programs.


Offline MethosTopic starter

Re: Not another lame lefty thread
« Reply #53 on: September 09, 2008, 02:50:17 AM »
Exactly, IL. And Methos has just proven what I suspected: that he's one of the born-into-a-good-position kind who are too self-centred to accept that the majority of people in poverty or even just "not that well off" are stuck where they are, and nothing short of random fate will enable them to break out of it and rise. The system is designed to keep them there, while the upper class float to the top like fecal matter, blissfully unaware of the problems and just assuming that their success is a result of hard work.

Occasionally someone does well as a result of hard work and/or clever thinking, although even then they're usually born into a lifestyle that lets them do that. I am one of those lucky ones, I was given the chance and I may end up becoming a pharmacist or even a doctor, using hard work and clever thinking to succeed and to help others. And some of that help will be going to people who can only afford it because our government feels it wasn't actually their fault for being born with debilitating health conditions or the like.

But it's rare that it happens as a result of their own work.

Likewise, there are plenty of people in poverty too lazy to try. But you know what? There are so many more who are trying, and their lack of results are sending a clear message to the others, encouraging the laziness. And then there are those who are simply rendered unable to help themselves.

But Methos has convinced me that he was born into a life of upper-middle class pseudo-luxury, and had the easy ride from there, and gets to play with the rules used for rich people.

I'm two generations removed from being a poor Eastern European peasant, so I can't help but laugh at your suggestion that I'm 'to the manor born'. I'm middle class and my education was financed through hard work, scholarships and debt. I have no particular sympathy for those that bemoan endlessly the fate of the lower class - the question is what are those in the lower class doing to better their situation? Far to few of them make use of the opporunities given to them, and instead lead lives riddled with crime, drugs and alcohol. They aren't early trying to grasp the brass ring and improve their life so why should I give them anything? If they wish to improve their situation, let them take steps to do so. Rarely does hard work go unrewarded. And if you think its unfair that some are not as clever as others, well then what can they do but work harder to try and make up for it? Ambition is not genetic its a personal choice.


Offline Vekseid

Re: Not another lame lefty thread
« Reply #54 on: September 09, 2008, 02:53:18 AM »
No offense Vekseid but a truly productive worker would be compensated to an extent that would allow them to afford health insurance. If you can't your likely an entirely replaceable worker.

You are making several assumptions:

1: This person has had the time to do so. A child is supposed to amass $10,000 for medical costs?
2: That you're in a system where emergency care is only for those who can afford it. That is not currently the cast. You pay for emergency treatment anyway, and honestly, it can't be permitted any other way - if someone is mugged, or loses their ID, or some similar mishap occurs, there simply isn't time to determine those things. A lot of money goes into this at the moment.
3: There is no such thing as an epidemic in your world. I mean this quite literally - it is rather imperative that we make sure people don't ignore a strange illness. Or worse, become unable to afford the full treatment for a deadly but once curable disease...

Quote
Is it beneficial to keep everyone healthy? Perhaps but health care systems aren't designed to keep everyone healthy and working, they're designed to treat illnesses. A large portion of the money is thrown at the elderly who are not going to be made into productive workers again, or even ever be made well again. The claim that its an economic benefit is thus in my mine entirely unsubstantiated.

The only elderly I care deeply about are extremely well off. They've certainly earned their money and I doubt you've been nearly as productive in your life. I don't begrudge them one dime of their millions. Their parents were impoverished after all.

But yeah, I'm all for limiting social security to several years, etc. I believe there are reasons for government provided programs, but there is no argument that things are are less than perfect in many ways.



And as for your comment about the lower class not doing enough to better themselves, what are they going to do when they don't know any other way, but to impose themselves on you? One way or another?

Again, this is something I mentioned before - it isn't enough for there to be opportunity, people must understand how to take hold of it.

Offline Inerrant Lust

Re: Not another lame lefty thread
« Reply #55 on: September 09, 2008, 02:54:25 AM »
Your missing the point entirely Inerrant - the point being there is no sense wishing for a better engine. People are what they are and fundamentally haven't changed much over the course of thousands of years of human history. They are flawed creatures subject to greed, laziness, brilliance and insanity. Expecting them to be anything more than a mixed bag is simply wide eyed idealism that has no foundation in reality. If that's cynical fine, but cynicism most often closely resembles reality.

I didn't say wishing for a better engine, I said working to make it better.

Are you seriously saying humankind hasn't progressed in the ten thousand years it has been on this earth? Cause I can't tell you how many times those damn vikings/mongols/huns have raided my city, killing all the men and raping all the women. I wish someone was smart enough to illegalize slavery. I wish the draft was gone. I wish women weren't considered property. And so on. And so on.

Human nature may lean towards raping and pillaging and exploiting, but you are a fool if you think that mankind is incapable of overcoming such base instincts. The very existence of such 'useless' things as art and philosophy defy all concepts of darwinism, and by extention, human nature.

Quote
As for saying capitalism is unfair that's generally the mark of someone whose really not interested in trying to advance their own place in the world and instead wants a handout.

Because it's entirely my fault that my mother got a disease that prematurely ended her career, and I'm likely to suffer the same fate. Thanks. Thanks alot.

Quote
Is it beneficial to keep everyone healthy? Perhaps but health care systems aren't designed to keep everyone healthy and working, they're designed to treat illnesses. A large portion of the money is thrown at the elderly who are not going to be made into productive workers again, or even ever be made well again. The claim that its an economic benefit is thus in my mine entirely unsubstantiated.

Health is a concept above such petty things as wealth. I would rather be poor and healthy, than rich and dying. You may dissagree, but you should NEVER make that choice for another human being.

Offline MethosTopic starter

Re: Not another lame lefty thread
« Reply #56 on: September 09, 2008, 03:03:02 AM »
You are making several assumptions:

1: This person has had the time to do so. A child is supposed to amass $10,000 for medical costs?
2: That you're in a system where emergency care is only for those who can afford it. That is not currently the cast. You pay for emergency treatment anyway, and honestly, it can't be permitted any other way - if someone is mugged, or loses their ID, or some similar mishap occurs, there simply isn't time to determine those things. A lot of money goes into this at the moment.
3: There is no such thing as an epidemic in your world. I mean this quite literally - it is rather imperative that we make sure people don't ignore a strange illness. Or worse, become unable to afford the full treatment for a deadly but once curable disease...

The only elderly I care deeply about are extremely well off. They've certainly earned their money and I doubt you've been nearly as productive in your life. I don't begrudge them one dime of their millions. Their parents were impoverished after all.

But yeah, I'm all for limiting social security to several years, etc. I believe there are reasons for government provided programs, but there is no argument that things are are less than perfect in many ways.



And as for your comment about the lower class not doing enough to better themselves, what are they going to do when they don't know any other way, but to impose themselves on you? One way or another?

Again, this is something I mentioned before - it isn't enough for there to be opportunity, people must understand how to take hold of it.

The child's family should have had an insurance plan that would have added them to their coverage. Furthermore, a child that is already acruing that great an expense in medical care may never be a productive worker. So it rather goes against your point that it would be an economic benefit for everyone to cure them if that's even possible.

Actually there are such things as epidemics in my world. I just rather doubt that we can stop them. I view death as a constant that you can't stop with a really good social program. If there is an epidemic it may be necessary to contain it. On the other hand what the hell does that have to do with a national health care system? That's an emergency.

As for the poor? Were it up to me I'd eliminate welfare for all those except those that are disabled to the point of being unable to work. Everyone else would be left to their own devices to make their way in the world as best they can. Be given the option of comfortable poverty as opposed to truly having to wander where their next meal is coming from if they don't seek gainful employment leads to complacency and welfare recipients breeding more welfare recipients. Malthus has been right for several centuries, the grain dole and its sucessor welfare only results in a greater number of poor people than should otherwise have existed.

Offline MethosTopic starter

Re: Not another lame lefty thread
« Reply #57 on: September 09, 2008, 03:11:00 AM »
I didn't say wishing for a better engine, I said working to make it better.

Are you seriously saying humankind hasn't progressed in the ten thousand years it has been on this earth? Cause I can't tell you how many times those damn vikings/mongols/huns have raided my city, killing all the men and raping all the women. I wish someone was smart enough to illegalize slavery. I wish the draft was gone. I wish women weren't considered property. And so on. And so on.

Human nature may lean towards raping and pillaging and exploiting, but you are a fool if you think that mankind is incapable of overcoming such base instincts. The very existence of such 'useless' things as art and philosophy defy all concepts of darwinism, and by extention, human nature.

Because it's entirely my fault that my mother got a disease that prematurely ended her career, and I'm likely to suffer the same fate. Thanks. Thanks alot.

Health is a concept above such petty things as wealth. I would rather be poor and healthy, than rich and dying. You may dissagree, but you should NEVER make that choice for another human being.

My point is that you aren't going to make people better. People are people and they are imperfect. Always have been always will be. Expecting otherwise is non-sensical and ignores the entire evidence of human history.

Are people different today than they were ten thousand years ago? No not really, there are still good people and bad people. Some customs and practices change but people remain the same creatures they always have been. You can say that no one like the Huns or the Vikings exist these days but then you probably haven't been hanging around with the Taliban. They would have fit right in with Atilla.

I didn't say I thik people are incapable of overcoming their base impulses. I said they will always have base impulses. Mankind will never be idealic. They will never be perfect. You cannot base a system of economics or government around the assumption that they will be. Its silly, it won't happen, never has, never will.

Medicine is just another service along with any other. Some people have nicer cars, better houses, better education, better entertainment, and inevitably better medicine. Inequality will always exist as the talents of people for accumulating resources will always be divergent.

Offline Inerrant Lust

Re: Not another lame lefty thread
« Reply #58 on: September 09, 2008, 03:34:48 AM »
My point is that you aren't going to make people better. People are people and they are imperfect. Always have been always will be. Expecting otherwise is non-sensical and ignores the entire evidence of human history.

For someone who says that hard work is the paragon of human worth, you're quite eager to give up. I am, by no means, an idealist. Yet I work towards making the world perfect, even if it shall never be accomplished. If I can change one thing for the better, that is progress.

Quote
Are people different today than they were ten thousand years ago? No not really, there are still good people and bad people. Some customs and practices change but people remain the same creatures they always have been. You can say that no one like the Huns or the Vikings exist these days but then you probably haven't been hanging around with the Taliban. They would have fit right in with Atilla.

Call me when Al Qaeda or the Taliban amass enough power to exert their control over entire continents in the way that the Mongols did.

Quote
I didn't say I thik people are incapable of overcoming their base impulses. I said they will always have base impulses. Mankind will never be idealic. They will never be perfect. You cannot base a system of economics or government around the assumption that they will be. Its silly, it won't happen, never has, never will.

Please tell me you don't find me so naive as to believe in perfection. Please don't tell me you think I would just let someone walk all over me because I believe mankind is inherently progressing.

Quote
Medicine is just another service along with any other. Some people have nicer cars, better houses, better education, better entertainment, and inevitably better medicine. Inequality will always exist as the talents of people for accumulating resources will always be divergent.

A service? Does a human life really have a price?

Health is, as I said, a concept that is ethically superior to all else. Forget education, forget welfare, forget everything.. A government should not let its people suffer in the name of 'fiscal responsibility.'

Offline Vekseid

Re: Not another lame lefty thread
« Reply #59 on: September 09, 2008, 03:44:53 AM »
The child's family should have had an insurance plan that would have added them to their coverage.

Actually, the child I'm thinking of did have them on insurance.  Family went into bankruptcy anyway. Your point?

I mean, above and beyond the ridiculousness of having to be privileged by birth.

Quote
Furthermore, a child that is already acruing that great an expense in medical care may never be a productive worker. So it rather goes against your point that it would be an economic benefit for everyone to cure them if that's even possible.

Waitwaitwait.

Are you even familiar with medical costs in the US here?

You have got to be kidding me. The average American makes several million dollars over the course of their lives.  To deny a child or even someone under the age of forty a hundred thousand dollars in medical care, you need to make the claim that less than one in ten will go on to live fully productive lives.

To put another way, even with the ridiculously inflated costs of modern medical care, a pretty simple exercise shows it's worth it:

1: 40 year old, below average American makes $40,000 per year. Over the next 25 years until their retirement - if they retire then - they'll make about ~1 million dollars, before taxes. Regardless, their employer - whomever they are - considers them to be worth it.
2: Person gets into an accident, loses all of their fingers on one hand, total cost after insurance is willing to pay - $250,000.
3: This person is useless to their job if they don't get their fingers back.

Let's make this your 'capitalist' world, though. He doesn't get any form of health care or support, he's let go from his job and completely on his own due to no fault of his own. In your perfect world, there's no such thing as food stamps.  He needs food, he needs to support his family. He can't afford another education.

He has a gun. What is he going to do when he finally gets desperate?

In your scenario, society is out three quarters of a million dollars worth of productivity.

Quote
Actually there are such things as epidemics in my world. I just rather doubt that we can stop them. I view death as a constant that you can't stop with a really good social program. If there is an epidemic it may be necessary to contain it. On the other hand what the hell does that have to do with a national health care system? That's an emergency.

Epidemics can only be contained if caught early. But more seriously, our current health care system actively promotes their creation - not a good way to be.

Quote
As for the poor? Were it up to me I'd eliminate welfare for all those except those that are disabled to the point of being unable to work. Everyone else would be left to their own devices to make their way in the world as best they can.

In a nation where there is a gun for every man, woman and child, is that really what you want? Think hard.

Quote
Be given the option of comfortable poverty as opposed to truly having to wander where their next meal is coming from if they don't seek gainful employment leads to complacency and welfare recipients breeding more welfare recipients. Malthus has been right for several centuries, the grain dole and its sucessor welfare only results in a greater number of poor people than should otherwise have existed.

And so does failing to provide ladders for them to escape from poverty.

1: They need to know how (education)
2: They need to be capable (healthy)

As I mentioned, very early on in this thread, capitalism implies that people are making informed decisions and have the full capacity to do so. You are actively denying people this.

Offline MethosTopic starter

Re: Not another lame lefty thread
« Reply #60 on: September 09, 2008, 03:45:01 AM »
For someone who says that hard work is the paragon of human worth, you're quite eager to give up. I am, by no means, an idealist. Yet I work towards making the world perfect, even if it shall never be accomplished. If I can change one thing for the better, that is progress.

Call me when Al Qaeda or the Taliban amass enough power to exert their control over entire continents in the way that the Mongols did.

Please tell me you don't find me so naive as to believe in perfection. Please don't tell me you think I would just let someone walk all over me because I believe mankind is inherently progressing.

A service? Does a human life really have a price?

Health is, as I said, a concept that is ethically superior to all else. Forget education, forget welfare, forget everything.. A government should not let its people suffer in the name of 'fiscal responsibility.'

I happen to believe Edmund Burke had the right of it when he said that its foolishness to ever think the world can ever be vastly improved. We can only strive to make some minor improvements.

Well if you want examples of barbaric backwaters how does most of Africa and the Middle East strike your fancy? They still stone women in the middle east for having allowed themselves to be raped.

Medicine is a service. Your hiring a professional to give you advice on a problem. And yes there is a price tag on that whether you expect it to be paid through taxes or insurance premiums, its horribly naive to expect it to be free.

There is nothing sacred about health. In fact its fairly fickle. But if you want a shoulder to cry on regarding it, I'd recommend taking up religion.

Offline MethosTopic starter

Re: Not another lame lefty thread
« Reply #61 on: September 09, 2008, 03:56:36 AM »
Actually, the child I'm thinking of did have them on insurance.  Family went into bankruptcy anyway. Your point?

I mean, above and beyond the ridiculousness of having to be privileged by birth.

Waitwaitwait.

Are you even familiar with medical costs in the US here?

You have got to be kidding me. The average American makes several million dollars over the course of their lives.  To deny a child or even someone under the age of forty a hundred thousand dollars in medical care, you need to make the claim that less than one in ten will go on to live fully productive lives.

To put another way, even with the ridiculously inflated costs of modern medical care, a pretty simple exercise shows it's worth it:

1: 40 year old, below average American makes $40,000 per year. Over the next 25 years until their retirement - if they retire then - they'll make about ~1 million dollars, before taxes. Regardless, their employer - whomever they are - considers them to be worth it.
2: Person gets into an accident, loses all of their fingers on one hand, total cost after insurance is willing to pay - $250,000.
3: This person is useless to their job if they don't get their fingers back.

Let's make this your 'capitalist' world, though. He doesn't get any form of health care or support, he's let go from his job and completely on his own due to no fault of his own. In your perfect world, there's no such thing as food stamps.  He needs food, he needs to support his family. He can't afford another education.

He has a gun. What is he going to do when he finally gets desperate?

In your scenario, society is out three quarters of a million dollars worth of productivity.

Epidemics can only be contained if caught early. But more seriously, our current health care system actively promotes their creation - not a good way to be.

In a nation where there is a gun for every man, woman and child, is that really what you want? Think hard.

And so does failing to provide ladders for them to escape from poverty.

1: They need to know how (education)
2: They need to be capable (healthy)

As I mentioned, very early on in this thread, capitalism implies that people are making informed decisions and have the full capacity to do so. You are actively denying people this.

No I mean quite simply that if someone is that sickly at an early age, its quite likely that they will be sickly for the duration of their life and be a continued drain on the system assuming the government is footing the bill. If they require that much money to rectify their situation now, its unlikely they will reach the income projections your offering.

And in the example of your 40 year old worker, losing the fingers of one hand doesn't necessarily prohibit you from working although it may require you to change employment. In your scenario the fellow is probably also married and a homeowner which leaves him with the options of his spouse working if she is not already or alternatively borrowing against his own equity while he retrains for other employment.

The health system actively promotes their creation? Oh what a load of bunk Vekseid. The next time a bought of dysentry or the plague breaks out in the United States let me know. The only epidemics we have these days are stemming from chinese backwaters where they live to close to their farm animals and have poor sanitation.

If everyone has a gun Vekseid I don't see the problem. Its difficult to rob another armed person. If your suggesting insurrection I shouldn't think that a rifle would be much use against a Blackhawk helicopter or a tank.

Offline Inerrant Lust

Re: Not another lame lefty thread
« Reply #62 on: September 09, 2008, 04:03:33 AM »
I happen to believe Edmund Burke had the right of it when he said that its foolishness to ever think the world can ever be vastly improved. We can only strive to make some minor improvements.

...Isn't that what I said? :P A single raindrop is insignifigant, yet enough of them can flood entire cities.

Quote
Well if you want examples of barbaric backwaters how does most of Africa and the Middle East strike your fancy? They still stone women in the middle east for having allowed themselves to be raped.

A minority. That's 2 of the 6 populated continents? In previous centuries, 6 of the 6 populated continents were barbaric.

Besides, not all of Africa and the Middle-east is a crapshoot, and there is certaintly people trying (some successfully) to improve it- which is more than you can say for yourself.

Quote
Medicine is a service. Your hiring a professional to give you advice on a problem. And yes there is a price tag on that whether you expect it to be paid through taxes or insurance premiums, its horribly naive to expect it to be free.

There is nothing sacred about health. In fact its fairly fickle. But if you want a shoulder to cry on regarding it, I'd recommend taking up religion.

And what if you were stricken by some illness tommorow, that costs some obscene ammount of money that you could never afford. Is your response 'Tough luck'?

You are incredibly callous. No offense, but I pray you never become the head of a state. "The world's a shitty place, but I'm not gonna go anything about it."

Quote
If everyone has a gun Vekseid I don't see the problem. Its difficult to rob another armed person. If your suggesting insurrection I shouldn't think that a rifle would be much use against a Blackhawk helicopter or a tank.

Are you kidding?

Your first response isn't "We should avoid as much violence as we can"

...but instead, "We can handle it."

Really?

Offline Mia

Re: Not another lame lefty thread
« Reply #63 on: September 09, 2008, 04:10:45 AM »
its horribly naive to expect it to be free.

Strangely enough, in most modern countries (and others) it is. And don't come to me screaming about Cuba and so on... just look how most countries in EU has solved it and you get a good picture.

Offline Vekseid

Re: Not another lame lefty thread
« Reply #64 on: September 09, 2008, 04:13:24 AM »
No I mean quite simply that if someone is that sickly at an early age, its quite likely that they will be sickly for the duration of their life and be a continued drain on the system assuming the government is footing the bill. If they require that much money to rectify their situation now, its unlikely they will reach the income projections your offering.

I know three who have incurred costs over a hundred thousand dollars as children, though mostly borne by insurance. All of them are productive.

Being in Canada you probably just don't know how easy it is to run up a $10,000 bill here. Or even $100k.

Quote
And in the example of your 40 year old worker, losing the fingers of one hand doesn't necessarily prohibit you from working although it may require you to change employment. In your scenario the fellow is probably also married and a homeowner which leaves him with the options of his spouse working if she is not already or alternatively borrowing against his own equity while he retrains for other employment.

Possibly. It could be that that support net exists, it might not. Society is still out his productive net if he cannot find work for one reason or another.

Quote
The health system actively promotes their creation? Oh what a load of bunk Vekseid. The next time a bought of dysentry or the plague breaks out in the United States let me know. The only epidemics we have these days are stemming from chinese backwaters where they live to close to their farm animals and have poor sanitation.

I was referring to resistant strains, of course. I figured you'd understand that but I guess not.

Quote
If everyone has a gun Vekseid I don't see the problem. Its difficult to rob another armed person. If your suggesting insurrection I shouldn't think that a rifle would be much use against a Blackhawk helicopter or a tank.

I am not suggesting insurrection, I'm suggesting that given a gun and no other perceived way to obtain food, the gun will become the tool.

Offline MethosTopic starter

Re: Not another lame lefty thread
« Reply #65 on: September 09, 2008, 04:15:40 AM »
...Isn't that what I said? :P A single raindrop is insignifigant, yet enough of them can flood entire cities.

A minority. That's 2 of the 6 populated continents? In previous centuries, 6 of the 6 populated continents were barbaric.

Besides, not all of Africa and the Middle-east is a crapshoot, and there is certaintly people trying (some successfully) to improve it- which is more than you can say for yourself.

And what if you were stricken by some illness tommorow, that costs some obscene ammount of money that you could never afford. Is your response 'Tough luck'?

You are incredibly callous. No offense, but I pray you never become the head of a state. "The world's a shitty place, but I'm not gonna go anything about it."

Are you kidding?

Your first response isn't "We should avoid as much violence as we can"

...but instead, "We can handle it."

Really?

I'm afraid that made me laugh. What's two continents? That's a third of the world and a large percentage of the populaton.

And its inaccurate to say all of the world was previously barbaric. Alexander the Great brought much of the world under a relatively civilized Hellenic rule briefly. The Roman Empire imposed rather orderly rule on much of Europe, Northern Africa and the Middle East. There was a period when the Islamic Caliphate was rather civilized before it was overun by Turks. China had a stable civilization for centuries while the rest of the world was comparitively backward. Barbarism and order come and go.

So what the fact I don't believe I can't save the world is suposed to make me feel bad? Guess what it doesn't.

As for the tough luck bit, yea for most people "tough luck" is pretty much what it winds up to. Either that or "Man I'm glad I kept my premiums current". Although in Canada its more along the lines of "I hope I don't die while waiting for medical treatment or test results."

If by your standards the fact I don't have any messianic program is a condemnation of my political suitability, I'll actually take that as a complement. Politicians who think they can save the world are generally a) a disaster b) delusional and c) bound to waste a lot of other peoples money.

I really don't have any problem with the use of violence to impose just order.  So yes "we can handle it" would be my response to that unlikely scenario.

Offline MethosTopic starter

Re: Not another lame lefty thread
« Reply #66 on: September 09, 2008, 04:17:07 AM »
Strangely enough, in most modern countries (and others) it is. And don't come to me screaming about Cuba and so on... just look how most countries in EU has solved it and you get a good picture.

The EU won't exist within several generations. Its an aging and shrinking population that can't afford its entitlements.

Offline Mia

Re: Not another lame lefty thread
« Reply #67 on: September 09, 2008, 04:23:03 AM »
The EU won't exist within several generations. Its an aging and shrinking population that can't afford its entitlements.

So you say... that was a interesting concept since the only country that is actually shrinking within EU is Italy. But in the real long run neither EU nor US will be on top, we have had our fun and 21st century and later on will belong to China and India.

Offline Vekseid

Re: Not another lame lefty thread
« Reply #68 on: September 09, 2008, 04:26:35 AM »
So you say... that was a interesting concept since the only country that is actually shrinking within EU is Italy. But in the real long run neither EU nor US will be on top, we have had our fun and 21st century and later on will belong to China and India.

There's a class / religious warfare brewing in the EU (and India, and China, and the US) that he's hinting at.  That said, I have more confidence in Brazil's potential as a superpower than India and maybe even China.

Offline MethosTopic starter

Re: Not another lame lefty thread
« Reply #69 on: September 09, 2008, 04:27:51 AM »
I know three who have incurred costs over a hundred thousand dollars as children, though mostly borne by insurance. All of them are productive.

Being in Canada you probably just don't know how easy it is to run up a $10,000 bill here. Or even $100k.

Possibly. It could be that that support net exists, it might not. Society is still out his productive net if he cannot find work for one reason or another.

I was referring to resistant strains, of course. I figured you'd understand that but I guess not.

I am not suggesting insurrection, I'm suggesting that given a gun and no other perceived way to obtain food, the gun will become the tool.

I really don't see there as being any epidemics in the Western World at this point in time. All we occasionally have are imported ones.

As far as medical costs go, those who maintain decent insurance have access to reasonable medical care. All that suggests to me is that its incumbent upon people to look after and provide for their families. Which really they should be doing anyway. If some fail to do so, its unfortunate but its the nature of life. I'm not going to let my heart bleed over the lack of medical care of one person because they are fecudent, as opposed to the the millions in the world that live in a truly wretched state. We all live priveleged lives in the western world, however, not everyone is as priveleged as others. However, even the least fortunate among us wouldn't trade his life for that of your average Zimbawean.

And I can't really respond to 'for some reason or another' its a might bit vague.

Offline MethosTopic starter

Re: Not another lame lefty thread
« Reply #70 on: September 09, 2008, 04:30:53 AM »
Take a look at the demographic trends in Europe Mia, the replacement birth rate is 2. The birthrate for every European country is below that and in many its below 1. A socialist system requires a stable tax paying population, they have a declining population. It won't work out for them. The smart ones are leaving already.

Offline Vekseid

Re: Not another lame lefty thread
« Reply #71 on: September 09, 2008, 04:34:33 AM »
I really don't see there as being any epidemics in the Western World at this point in time. All we occasionally have are imported ones.

That was part of my point, we haven't had one in 90 years now.

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As far as medical costs go, those who maintain decent insurance have access to reasonable medical care. All that suggests to me is that its incumbent upon people to look after and provide for their families. Which really they should be doing anyway. If some fail to do so, its unfortunate but its the nature of life. I'm not going to let my heart bleed over the lack of medical care of one person because they are fecudent, as opposed to the the millions in the world that live in a truly wretched state. We all live priveleged lives in the western world, however, not everyone is as priveleged as others. However, even the least fortunate among us wouldn't trade his life for that of your average Zimbawean.

I really don't thin Zimbabwe is a good comparison. I have pity for the people Mugabe is driving out, I have pity for the people in Darfur...

But ultimately we can only do so much at a time. America's hands are a bit tied at the moment.

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And I can't really respond to 'for some reason or another' its a might bit vague.

There are a million potential reasons why he may not be able to find work again. And certainly,  it's not unreasonable to expect a 50% paycut in such a situation. Like I said, the economy nets less with a worker in a crippled state, in all but the most egregious circumstances.


Offline Inerrant Lust

Re: Not another lame lefty thread
« Reply #72 on: September 09, 2008, 04:39:27 AM »
And its inaccurate to say all of the world was previously barbaric. Alexander the Great brought much of the world under a relatively civilized Hellenic rule briefly. The Roman Empire imposed rather orderly rule on much of Europe, Northern Africa and the Middle East. There was a period when the Islamic Caliphate was rather civilized before it was overun by Turks. China had a stable civilization for centuries while the rest of the world was comparitively backward. Barbarism and order come and go.

You have to be kidding if you can tell me that mankind, as a whole, is morally the same as it was a thousand years ago. For every North Korea there is a South Korea. For every Saudi Arabia there is a England, A France, A Newfoundland, ect. ect. ect.

That is a stark contrast to the days where pretty much everyone was universally boned.

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So what the fact I don't believe I can't save the world is suposed to make me feel bad? Guess what it doesn't.

Did I ever say 'save the world', no, I said try to make an effort, dammit. If a man falls off a high ledge and hangs onto it for dear life- do you run over to pull him up, or do you stand by and do nothing?

By the looks of it, you're condemning humanity to fall off that ledge.

At the very least, grab his arm. Even if he still falls, you tried.

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I really don't have any problem with the use of violence to impose just order.  So yes "we can handle it" would be my response to that unlikely scenario.

It's not imposing order. It's that instead of PREVENTING violence, you begin to seek ways to combat it. (Against your own people, no less)

Both are valid strategies... but if you should never omit prevention.

Offline MethosTopic starter

Re: Not another lame lefty thread
« Reply #73 on: September 09, 2008, 04:40:36 AM »
Well this isn't star war vekseid we can't build him a robotic hand to begin with to send him back to his old job. So its a worse job for him socialist health care or not.

As for the Zimbawae thing, I simply point out that the people in worse straits in the world are legion. The only reason to cry over the state of those closer to home is fecundity. You have to see them. I admittedly don't find their geographical location particularly persuasive. Poverity exists, illness exists, always have always will.

And I'm afraid I don't follow how your suggesting that the US's current health care model is encouraging epidemics when your saying there hasn't been one in 90 years. If there is a point there, I don't see it.


Offline Vekseid

Re: Not another lame lefty thread
« Reply #74 on: September 09, 2008, 04:45:50 AM »
Well this isn't star war vekseid we can't build him a robotic hand to begin with to send him back to his old job. So its a worse job for him socialist health care or not.

Exactly, as of now there is only one chance to reattach his fingers.

It's a very good chance. Quite certain to succeed perfectly.

And this story is told every single day.

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Poverity exists, illness exists, always have always will.

Only if people like you have a say in making sure it continues. I'd rather it not.

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And I'm afraid I don't follow how your suggesting that the US's current health care model is encouraging epidemics when your saying there hasn't been one in 90 years. If there is a point there, I don't see it.

Are you completely and utterly unfamiliar with the problem of mistreated diseases?