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Author Topic: Star Wars- EU and the Sequel Trilogy  (Read 1395 times)

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Offline FlorenceTopic starter

Star Wars- EU and the Sequel Trilogy
« on: April 26, 2014, 03:53:55 AM »
http://starwars.com/news/the-legendary-star-wars-expanded-universe-turns-a-new-page.html

So, after letting us stew in our fear and/or excitement, it seems they've finally come out to tell us more or less what's what concerning the state of the post-RotJ lore stemming from the myriad of books, comics, video games, etc. set during that time period, with the new trilogy of movies on their way.

The general idea of it is that all the post RotJ Expanded Universe will be relocated to a new label, called Legends. Essentially, if I'm understanding things correctly, this will sort of mean that there will be a Legends timeline with the former EU stuff in it and the 'Official' timeline of the new movies.

They don't seem entirely clear as to whether or not any NEW material will be released under the Legends banner, or if they're just going to continue printing existing stories with it. I suppose I wouldn't rule it out, but I also don't want to get my hopes up too much.

I do understand the need for cleaning up the timeline a little, especially given just how many EU stories have been told in the time period of the new movies... at the same time, I really do hope they don't plan to simply erase characters like Mara Jade and Kyle Katarn from the official timeline. If nothing else, I hope they'll find ways to include the characters into the new timeline.

At any rate, how do the fine people of E feel about this new development? For that matter, how do you feel about the EU, or the post-RotJ EU in particular? Are you looking forward to the new movies? Do you think they'll be better than the stories they're replacing, or at least AS good as them? Discuss below!

Offline Stella

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Re: Star Wars- EU and the Sequel Trilogy
« Reply #1 on: April 26, 2014, 04:27:11 AM »
I adore the EU novels (I've never explored the comics or many of the games.). I think the stories and characters are far more interesting than anything the Prequels introduced. One of my greatest frustrations with Star Wars and George Lucas is how he's handled the EU and what he cites as top tier canon or whatever ... it's a confusing jumble. This just looks even more confusing to me. I want to be excited about this, and the new films, and the tv show if that's still happening but I just don't know.

'One consistent narrative' and 'unified vision' .... this worries me. The Prequels already did a fantastic job of completely trashing Boba Fett's backstory, in my opinion. I rather shudder to think what they're going to do now.

Thank you so much for posting this link, it's really exciting hearing the novels getting some attention. Time to re-read Starfighters of Adumar now, I think!

Offline consortium11

Re: Star Wars- EU and the Sequel Trilogy
« Reply #2 on: April 26, 2014, 05:41:11 AM »
I really do hope they don't plan to simply erase characters like Mara Jade and Kyle Katarn from the official timeline. If nothing else, I hope they'll find ways to include the characters into the new timeline.

I'd expect that at the very least they'd throw some fan-service cameos in there.

Online Vorian

Re: Star Wars- EU and the Sequel Trilogy
« Reply #3 on: April 26, 2014, 10:13:20 PM »
This is about what I expected when I heard Disney bought it, and I likely won't be watching whatever they put out.

Offline FlorenceTopic starter

Re: Star Wars- EU and the Sequel Trilogy
« Reply #4 on: April 26, 2014, 10:35:05 PM »
Eh, at the end of the day, those old stories will still exist. I think my only real fear is how it might complicate the process of researching lore for tabletop games.

Still, as long as the Star Wars wiki manages to organize things and have a clear list of what's true for the 'official' and 'legends' lore, it shouldn't be too bad.

And worst case scenario, there's enough information in the various Saga Edition campaign guides.

I think this might wind up being kind of like pulling off a bandaid. It'll hurt like hell right now as our beloved lore is altered, but in the long run it should prove to establish an EU in the future that has less retconing and contradiction, by better coordinating it all and elevating all of it into a single cohesive canon.

Offline Stella

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Re: Star Wars- EU and the Sequel Trilogy
« Reply #5 on: April 26, 2014, 10:46:36 PM »
Well, tbh, I'll probably ignore whatever they do for my own enjoyment and sanity. : p I pretend the Prequels don't exist anyway.

Offline consortium11

Re: Star Wars- EU and the Sequel Trilogy
« Reply #6 on: April 27, 2014, 07:44:29 PM »
The first big casualty from the prequel-Extended Universe is the Sith and their history: Korriban (traditionally seen as the homeworld of the Sith species and the base of operations for the Sith as a whole post-Exile) has been renamed to Moraband (at least by the time of the Clone Wars). In and of itself it doesn't mean much; locations are often called different things at different times by different people and Moraband is being presented as just a new name, but it's a good example of how things can and will be changed (although Darth Bane still showed up so they're happy to reuse EU elements as needed).

On a side note, does this make TOR the most expensive piece of fan-fiction ever put together?

Offline apygoos

Re: Star Wars- EU and the Sequel Trilogy
« Reply #7 on: April 30, 2014, 08:16:31 AM »
well they release teh new cast, only one new woman [my best is Han and Leia's daughter]. fairly young and relevantly unknown actors to go along with the fan favorite vets.

Offline FlorenceTopic starter

Re: Star Wars- EU and the Sequel Trilogy
« Reply #8 on: April 30, 2014, 12:45:44 PM »
well they release teh new cast, only one new woman [my best is Han and Leia's daughter]. fairly young and relevantly unknown actors to go along with the fan favorite vets.

If she is Han and Leia's daughter and her name is anything but Jaina, they're not getting any money from me :U

Offline Chris Brady

Re: Star Wars- EU and the Sequel Trilogy
« Reply #9 on: April 30, 2014, 10:42:13 PM »
That story trilogy was a butchery.  I'm hoping they remove those three 'kids' from new timeline.

Offline Stella

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Re: Star Wars- EU and the Sequel Trilogy
« Reply #10 on: May 01, 2014, 05:39:36 AM »
That story trilogy was a butchery.  I'm hoping they remove those three 'kids' from new timeline.

You mean the Heir to the Empire trilogy? I love that.


I'm 100% sure she has to be their daughter - she looks an awful lot like Natalie Portman. It's those Skywalker-gal genes. : p

brb still mourning loss of eu books as canon.

Offline KaylaM

Re: Star Wars- EU and the Sequel Trilogy
« Reply #11 on: May 01, 2014, 09:07:59 AM »
Trashing the EU was the best thing that Disney could have done for the fanchise.

The simple fact is that of the bazillion or so people who have seen a Star Wars movie, only a tiny minority have any connection to the EU. Many might know that there are Star Wars novels or comics, but outside of computer games, the EU is simply not that well known. Most people who know of it are relatively casual fans, ones who might read a novel or two, but those who have a deep involvement in the EU are a tiny minority.

Not only that, but it's also a shrinking minority. Star Wars book sales have been on the decline for years now. The Thrawn trilogy sold in the million-range in the day and have been near-continuously in print since. However, in the last decade, an EU novel will be very lucky to crack the hundred thousand sales marker, and those have been few and far between. Fans have been leaving the EU and new ones have not been coming in to replace them.

And that's the thing; the EU is inaccessible to the point of hostility to newcomers. Today it's wrapped up in twenty-plus years of printed fiction, everything wrapped up in everything else in a convoluted mess of cross-references. A new reader isn't going to have a clue where to start, and a casual fan is going to have a hard time getting acquainted with what's going on.

Accessibility is the key to all this. In creating the Sequel Trilogy, Disney has two choices. The first is to create a movie that is tied in to the existing EU. That in turn requires it to be compliant with millions of words of published fiction, dozens of novels and comics, a miriyad of computer games and so forth. It's going to tie their hands and constrain their writers and prevent them from doing what they want.

The second is to start with a clean slate. All that has come before is gone, allowing the writers do do what they want, to create what they want, to craft the characters they want without having to be constantly looking over their shoulders to make sure they're compliant with some long out of print comic published in the mid-ninties or some obtuse computer game or whatever else.

In short, Disney's choice comes down to this. They can create an entirely new movie that has no ties to the EU and, in doing such, give their creators the most freedom to do what they want while appealing to the broadest possible audience. Or, alternatively, they can hog-tie their creators, hamstring them and force them to pander to a tiny and shrinking minority. It's pretty clear that the former is the only logical plan.

I'll add something here. I'm a Star Wars fan. I've read plenty of EU novels and comics. I've played SWotR. I've played the Star Wars RPG. I've got years of investment in the EU. And I think that not only is this a good thing, but I earnestly think that this is the best thing that Disney could do for the franchise.

If there's going to be more movies, then a full reboot is needed.

Offline FlorenceTopic starter

Re: Star Wars- EU and the Sequel Trilogy
« Reply #12 on: May 01, 2014, 10:12:20 AM »
That story trilogy was a butchery.  I'm hoping they remove those three 'kids' from new timeline.

You realize that the Solo children have been featured in MANY stories, right?

Personally, my only complaints are how their stories have ended up. It's... all sort of needlessly depressing. All the same, Jaina's been an amazing character and one of the most prominent female badasses in the series.

The Thrawn Trilogy are classics, btw, the only problem I have with them as canon is that they've already been contradicted on some points by the prequel trilogy. Frankly, though, I'd take the Thrawn Trilogy over the prequel movies any day of the week. The only good thing to really come out of the prequel movies was the Clone Wars series. The movie was god-awful, but the series was absolutely amazing.

As I said, personally, if she's their daughter, and she's not Jaina, no sale for me.

Trashing the EU was the best thing that Disney could have done for the fanchise.

The simple fact is that of the bazillion or so people who have seen a Star Wars movie, only a tiny minority have any connection to the EU. Many might know that there are Star Wars novels or comics, but outside of computer games, the EU is simply not that well known. Most people who know of it are relatively casual fans, ones who might read a novel or two, but those who have a deep involvement in the EU are a tiny minority.

Not only that, but it's also a shrinking minority. Star Wars book sales have been on the decline for years now. The Thrawn trilogy sold in the million-range in the day and have been near-continuously in print since. However, in the last decade, an EU novel will be very lucky to crack the hundred thousand sales marker, and those have been few and far between. Fans have been leaving the EU and new ones have not been coming in to replace them.

And that's the thing; the EU is inaccessible to the point of hostility to newcomers. Today it's wrapped up in twenty-plus years of printed fiction, everything wrapped up in everything else in a convoluted mess of cross-references. A new reader isn't going to have a clue where to start, and a casual fan is going to have a hard time getting acquainted with what's going on.

Accessibility is the key to all this. In creating the Sequel Trilogy, Disney has two choices. The first is to create a movie that is tied in to the existing EU. That in turn requires it to be compliant with millions of words of published fiction, dozens of novels and comics, a miriyad of computer games and so forth. It's going to tie their hands and constrain their writers and prevent them from doing what they want.

The second is to start with a clean slate. All that has come before is gone, allowing the writers do do what they want, to create what they want, to craft the characters they want without having to be constantly looking over their shoulders to make sure they're compliant with some long out of print comic published in the mid-ninties or some obtuse computer game or whatever else.

In short, Disney's choice comes down to this. They can create an entirely new movie that has no ties to the EU and, in doing such, give their creators the most freedom to do what they want while appealing to the broadest possible audience. Or, alternatively, they can hog-tie their creators, hamstring them and force them to pander to a tiny and shrinking minority. It's pretty clear that the former is the only logical plan.

I'll add something here. I'm a Star Wars fan. I've read plenty of EU novels and comics. I've played SWotR. I've played the Star Wars RPG. I've got years of investment in the EU. And I think that not only is this a good thing, but I earnestly think that this is the best thing that Disney could do for the franchise.

If there's going to be more movies, then a full reboot is needed.

As for them scrapping the EU, I understand fully the benefits from it, I'm more concerned, honestly, with how they're going to handle it. They should recognize that fans have a lot of investment in certain concepts and not trash them needlessly. Change the stories if they have to, but don't just throw away characters and ideas that we've grown to love. Keep Mara Jade, keep Jaina Solo, keep Kyle Katarn; keep the rich Mandalorian culture fleshed out by Karen Traviss (what hasn't already been contradicted by the Mandalorian-focused episodes of the Clone Wars, I mean), keep many of the unique races that originated in the EU, like the Chiss and Miraluka, keep the general concepts of the New Republic and the New Jedi Order.

Basically, I'm all for cleaning things up to make them more accessible and easier to add to, but I just hope they don't toss the baby out with the bathwater. There's a LOT of great concepts that have come from the EU, and stripping them all away will greatly diminish the appeal of Star Wars for long time fans.

As I said earlier, if they do this right, I think it'll be like pulling off a bandaid. It'll hurt right now, and get better down the line. If they do this wrong, it could cost the series a good chunk of its fanbase. You can say that the fans of the EU are a minority, but a 'minority' of Star Wars fans is still a pretty big number of people. Even if sales have declined there is still a strong interest in the EU, or at least in the existence of an EU. On top of how they handle what they do and don't retcon, they also need to worry about being too restrictive with future EU titles. They're going to have to walk a very delicate line between lack of coordination and lack of creative content. If all we get are directly spun off of the films and tv series and whatnot, it will get boring fast. I love how the EU has explored ages and ages before the movies and hundreds of years after. It's created this huge, rich timeline where almost any type of story can fit in from western to horror to military action to crime drama to fantasy, etc.

I'm also not sure what you mean by a full reboot? Because a full reboot of the entire franchise would be disastrous. Maybe the franchise can weather the loss of 30 years of EU plot and lore, but if they were to uproot everything fans have grown to love since day 1, they may as well just end the series now and spare us the heart-ache.

Online Vorian

Re: Star Wars- EU and the Sequel Trilogy
« Reply #13 on: May 01, 2014, 10:20:27 AM »
Spoiler: Click to Show/Hide
Trashing the EU was the best thing that Disney could have done for the fanchise.

The simple fact is that of the bazillion or so people who have seen a Star Wars movie, only a tiny minority have any connection to the EU. Many might know that there are Star Wars novels or comics, but outside of computer games, the EU is simply not that well known. Most people who know of it are relatively casual fans, ones who might read a novel or two, but those who have a deep involvement in the EU are a tiny minority.

Not only that, but it's also a shrinking minority. Star Wars book sales have been on the decline for years now. The Thrawn trilogy sold in the million-range in the day and have been near-continuously in print since. However, in the last decade, an EU novel will be very lucky to crack the hundred thousand sales marker, and those have been few and far between. Fans have been leaving the EU and new ones have not been coming in to replace them.

And that's the thing; the EU is inaccessible to the point of hostility to newcomers. Today it's wrapped up in twenty-plus years of printed fiction, everything wrapped up in everything else in a convoluted mess of cross-references. A new reader isn't going to have a clue where to start, and a casual fan is going to have a hard time getting acquainted with what's going on.

Accessibility is the key to all this. In creating the Sequel Trilogy, Disney has two choices. The first is to create a movie that is tied in to the existing EU. That in turn requires it to be compliant with millions of words of published fiction, dozens of novels and comics, a miriyad of computer games and so forth. It's going to tie their hands and constrain their writers and prevent them from doing what they want.

The second is to start with a clean slate. All that has come before is gone, allowing the writers do do what they want, to create what they want, to craft the characters they want without having to be constantly looking over their shoulders to make sure they're compliant with some long out of print comic published in the mid-ninties or some obtuse computer game or whatever else.

In short, Disney's choice comes down to this. They can create an entirely new movie that has no ties to the EU and, in doing such, give their creators the most freedom to do what they want while appealing to the broadest possible audience. Or, alternatively, they can hog-tie their creators, hamstring them and force them to pander to a tiny and shrinking minority. It's pretty clear that the former is the only logical plan.

I'll add something here. I'm a Star Wars fan. I've read plenty of EU novels and comics. I've played SWotR. I've played the Star Wars RPG. I've got years of investment in the EU. And I think that not only is this a good thing, but I earnestly think that this is the best thing that Disney could do for the franchise.

If there's going to be more movies, then a full reboot is needed.

I get all that, that's why I knew this was coming, but the books will always be the primary canon to me. Now normally I could enjoy these new movies still as an alternate universe, but at the moment some of what Disney has done with Star Wars feels incredibly cheap to me and I just can't get past that right now.

Offline FlorenceTopic starter

Re: Star Wars- EU and the Sequel Trilogy
« Reply #14 on: May 04, 2014, 09:11:57 AM »
Happy Star Wars Day, by the way :P

And may the fourth be with you! 8D

Offline TheLegionary

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Re: Star Wars- EU and the Sequel Trilogy
« Reply #15 on: May 04, 2014, 02:09:52 PM »
Happy Star Wars Day.

I just heard that Jaina will be the main protagonist in Star Wars VII. Assuming she was tutored by Mara Jade in several books, I do not think they can simply erase that... but honestly, I think there is nothing better than the bad girl's time of Mara Jade.

By the way, anyone willing to roleplay a plot where Mara Jade is still the Emperor's Hand?

Offline FlorenceTopic starter

Re: Star Wars- EU and the Sequel Trilogy
« Reply #16 on: May 04, 2014, 03:11:37 PM »
Happy Star Wars Day.

I just heard that Jaina will be the main protagonist in Star Wars VII. Assuming she was tutored by Mara Jade in several books, I do not think they can simply erase that... but honestly, I think there is nothing better than the bad girl's time of Mara Jade.

By the way, anyone willing to roleplay a plot where Mara Jade is still the Emperor's Hand?

Best I can tell that's still just rumors, but I really, really hope it's true :C Jaina would make a great main protagonist

Also, it's not something with any canon characters, but I've been working on possibly trying to run a Star Wars: Saga campaign on here... but I've been continually been getting distractions. Maybe I'll try to work more intently on it after today. Tonight, I plan on re-watching the original trilogy :D The original versions too, without those stupid changes in the special editions.

Offline KaylaM

Re: Star Wars- EU and the Sequel Trilogy
« Reply #17 on: May 04, 2014, 04:44:45 PM »
When I said full reboot, I meant of the EU akin to, well, what's happened. Those elements defined as unquestionable canon (which IIRC are Episodes I to VI and the Clone Wars series) stays, all else is swept away for a clean slate.

Disney are under no obligation to keep anything from the previous version of the EU, especially not if it contradicts with their new creative vision for the Star Wars series. Again, a fresh start is better here so that their creators have more freedom and potential new fans aren't locked out by inaccessibility. The latter has been something that had become a real problem for the old EU, which is yet another reason why a full reboot is needed.

Now with that I will say this much; there is nothing that stops you from enjoying the old EU still. Your books and comics and whatever else will still exist and you can still read them at any time. Mara Jade, Jaxxom, Plif, Zayne Carrick and Kyle Katarn are the same characters as they were before being decanonised, and nothing about that makes any difference to how they act and the stories they're in.

And yes, the rumours of the Ep VII protagonist being Jaina are just that; rumours. Odds are that it will be an entirely new character to prevent the sort of continuity lockout that the EU reboot was all about

Offline FlorenceTopic starter

Re: Star Wars- EU and the Sequel Trilogy
« Reply #18 on: May 04, 2014, 05:12:43 PM »
When I said full reboot, I meant of the EU akin to, well, what's happened. Those elements defined as unquestionable canon (which IIRC are Episodes I to VI and the Clone Wars series) stays, all else is swept away for a clean slate.

Disney are under no obligation to keep anything from the previous version of the EU, especially not if it contradicts with their new creative vision for the Star Wars series. Again, a fresh start is better here so that their creators have more freedom and potential new fans aren't locked out by inaccessibility. The latter has been something that had become a real problem for the old EU, which is yet another reason why a full reboot is needed.

Now with that I will say this much; there is nothing that stops you from enjoying the old EU still. Your books and comics and whatever else will still exist and you can still read them at any time. Mara Jade, Jaxxom, Plif, Zayne Carrick and Kyle Katarn are the same characters as they were before being decanonised, and nothing about that makes any difference to how they act and the stories they're in.

And yes, the rumours of the Ep VII protagonist being Jaina are just that; rumours. Odds are that it will be an entirely new character to prevent the sort of continuity lockout that the EU reboot was all about

People keep saying we can still enjoy the old stuff, but that's not the problem. No one actually thinks the old stuff is going to go up in flames or anything. The problem is that means ALL of those stories are basically finished forever. We'll never get any more adventures set in THAT Star Wars universe. At least, that's the worry.

I also don't really follow your logic at the end there? How would using Jaina cause them any problems? They can just as easily create an entirely new story FOR Jaina, as they could simply make a new character; and using Jaina actually earns them points with EU fans, as opposed to the flak they'll get from some of us if they replace her with a new character.

I also don't think anyone's said they're under any obligation. Its not a matter of whether or not they have the RIGHT to do it. They can erase the entirety of Star Wars canon, including the previous movies, and write a new story starring Jar Jar Binks and his sidekick, Derp the Flying Pink Dinosaur if they want. They have the right to do that.

The question is: what will make the fans happy. That's what they have to worry about. I don't just mean hardcore EU fans, I mean Star Wars fans in general. If retconning some stuff works to make the majority of fans happy, great, but they should also be conscious of what they can do to ease the pain for fans who don't like their retcons.

I think even the more hardcore of EU fans still WANT to like these new movies. I certainly do. They just have to avoid making it too hard for us. I mean, this is Star Wars. The only reason anyone is passionate about it is because they love it. They want new movies that they can enjoy and love, they don't WANT to have to ignore the new movies in favor of old canon. They want reasons to still care about the new continuity.

In my opinion, keeping characters like Jaina, Mara and Kyle would go a huge way to making it easier for EU fans to love the new movies. And they could still VERY EASILY write them into new stories.

Edit: For example of what I think the big worry is. If they rule KotOR and TOR noncanon (which I admittedly am pretty doubtful that they will, given that TOR is still raking in a fair amount of cash for them), the comics would almost certainly be non-canon along with them, and that effectively means the entire Old Republic era doesn't exist in Star Wars canon, since its NEVER been explored, or even really mentioned in the films. That means we may never get another story set in that era. Which is pretty lame, as its actually my favorite era in the Star Wars timeline.
« Last Edit: May 04, 2014, 05:31:58 PM by Florence »

Offline Chris Brady

Re: Star Wars- EU and the Sequel Trilogy
« Reply #19 on: May 05, 2014, 12:28:13 AM »
No one can use use Mara Jade for anything.  The Timothy Zahn trilogy had too many incorrect things about it (namely what the Clone Wars were.  I still say Zahn's interpretation was much, much, much cooler than what we got.)  She's Legend status, meaning non-Canon.  Including the horrid Vong crap, and the Solos' trio of kidlets, simply because she's in there.  They are Legend too.

And Florence nails the real issue.  Legend stuff is done.  Nothing will ever be written about it because there's no point to write anything about it.  They are done and gone.

Offline FlorenceTopic starter

Re: Star Wars- EU and the Sequel Trilogy
« Reply #20 on: May 05, 2014, 01:12:22 AM »
No one can use use Mara Jade for anything.  The Timothy Zahn trilogy had too many incorrect things about it (namely what the Clone Wars were.  I still say Zahn's interpretation was much, much, much cooler than what we got.)  She's Legend status, meaning non-Canon.  Including the horrid Vong crap, and the Solos' trio of kidlets, simply because she's in there.  They are Legend too.

And Florence nails the real issue.  Legend stuff is done.  Nothing will ever be written about it because there's no point to write anything about it.  They are done and gone.

What do you mean they can't use her for anything? They've explicitly stated that parts of the EU are free to be used and are already being used (ie. the Inquisition appearing in Rebels) for new canon. Until something in the new canon reveals that either Luke never had a wife, or had a wife and she wasn't Mara, there's no reason to assume that the character of Mara is definitely being completely scrapped.

Same thing for Jaina, unless and until they reveal that Jaina doesn't exist, there's no reason to ASSUME she doesn't.

I'm not saying they both WILL be in it, but I also don't see the point in throwing in the towel and just assuming that they're being scrapped without any evidence.

Best I can tell, the only things we explicitly KNOW about the canon changes are this:

There will be changes.

The movies are canon.

The Clone Wars is canon.

Rebels will be canon.

New creators may use elements of the Legends EU for new canon content.

(Also, as I said, I highly suspect that the Old Republic era content, at least the games, will remain canon; as TOR is still making them a hefty amount of cash, the new story team apparently was credited in one of the expansions, meaning they presumably had some input on it, and the series itself is still heavily popular, with the KotOR games being enjoyed by Star Wars fans and non-Star Wars fans alike. For all those factors; while its not impossible that it will be ruled non-canon, doing so would be an INCREDIBLY stupid business move. They may as well just take wads of cash and light them on fire for fun. I'm sure many would still play TOR even if it was ruled non-canon, but it would most likely deter a significant number of new players from picking the game up; meaning the number of players would eventually begin to trickle as old players left. Given that the game has already had several issues with it, that have shaken up the players, they really shouldn't be testing the stability of its player base like that.)

As I said previously, it would be wise and prudent of them to take steps where possible to appease older fans, and EU fans in particular, given that they're already testing their loyalty to the Star Wars brand. It would take some rather simple and easy decisions to appease them without sacrificing the new fans they hope to get from altering the EU. As such it would be fairly idiotic to NOT take said simple and easy steps. They serve only to gain by making those decisions, and risk losing nothing.

Will they do the wise thing and win over new and old fans alike?

Difficult to see. Always in motion is the future.

Offline KaylaM

Re: Star Wars- EU and the Sequel Trilogy
« Reply #21 on: May 05, 2014, 08:35:38 AM »
SWtOR, as a part of the old EU is automatically non-canon. However, more to the point, that doesn't actually matter at all.

The vast majority of people who play SWtOR don't know or care about the EU or canon. Nor do they care particularly about lore, story or the like. They are there for the MMO gameplay; to kill bosses, to get phat loots and to interact with others. The story is a minor concern at the best of times, and certainly declaring it non-canon is not a massive deterrence to new or existing players.

IIRC, of the seventeen surviving SWtOR servers, three of them are RP servers. Even then, the simple fact is that RPers are a minority on RP servers. This is as true of SWtOR as it is of WoW or any other MMO which offer an RP server option. And even then, among the actual "RPers", there's still a good number who know very little about the Star Wars universe or have ever read a single EU novel or comic. You see plenty of people who think that SWtOR is set circa the Classic Trilogy, or ERPers who are just there for cybersex or the like who either don't know or don't care.

And even then, decanonising SWtOR won't cause people to up and leave it "just because". Likewise, people aren't going to suddenly not want to get into the game because it's non-canon. It's a minor concern, something that only bothers a minority, a tiny proportion of the game's population much like the canonicty of the old EU will only bother a tiny minority of potential movie-goers.

(Besides which, by eliminating Travis-style Mandalorians as well as the Rattaki race via its changes to Assajj Ventress, it could be argued that Clone Wars had allready effecitvely decanonised SWtoR. And A lot more people watched Clone Wars then ever played SWtoR)

As for Jaina Solo, using her in any new movies hit the issues of accessibility and creativity come into play. Jaina is a thirty-something year old character with over twenty years of published history. Her life has allready been extensively documented in a dozens of novels and comics and whatever else, and has very little room for new material. Similarily, any new writer would have to work around all that background and baggage.

The alternative is to create an entirely new character who doesn't have all that baggage on board. This gives the writers much more freedom to do what they want to do and create a character who is unconstrained by their fictional past, a fresh slate on which to work. At the same time, it also creates a brand new character that brand new audiences can get into without needing to know their existing publication hisotry.

Accessibility is key. Once more, it comes down to that; pander to a tiny and shrinking minority or go for the biggest potential audience.

Offline FlorenceTopic starter

Re: Star Wars- EU and the Sequel Trilogy
« Reply #22 on: May 05, 2014, 11:20:18 AM »
SWtOR, as a part of the old EU is automatically non-canon. However, more to the point, that doesn't actually matter at all.

Says who? I'm not trying to be argumentative, but that's a pretty definite statement to be making given the absolute lack of evidence I've seen one way or the other.

I'm really trying to sort out the fact from the speculation when I hear statements like this, and its difficult, because everyone seems to state things they've simply speculated based on the initial, vague statement as though they're definitive facts.

Also... the story is a minor concern? The story is literally the only reason I, and most people I know played TOR. It sure as hell wasn't the gameplay, which was fairly standard MMO trite. The only real draw TOR had was the story and the classic Bioware dialogue system. The combat, crafting and whatnot was all fairly standard for an MMO.

Okay, I'll grant that the space combat is unique and cool, but that was only added by an expansion... what... couldn't be even a year ago, because I remember distinctly playing it the very first day it launched. (The old space combat system was... unique, but not THAT exciting.)

Also, I already said many people probably won't leave. But when you see someone new coming in, it sort of de-insentives people to go in, as the whole story, which.. again, I have to disagree about not being important, is not longer even part of the Star Wars story. WoW can get away with being nothing but gameplay, but if anyone is playing TOR for the gameplay, in my opinion, there's a TON of better games they could be playing. I'm not saying it WILL bomb if its declared non-canon, but given that there's pretty much no reason TO declare it non-canon, then what's the point? If they can't write a good story without contradicting a game set eons and eons prior to their movies, they're just straight up BAD writers.

If they are really that incapable of writing a good story within the confines of an existing universe, they need to leave Star Wars alone and go write their own sci-fi universe. I mean, what are they going to do? Completely reset the canon every time they write a new movie, just to give themselves more freedom? There's a nice strategy for a lasting fanbase.

Novelists and comic writers have been finding ways to write new and exciting stories in the Star Wars universe for decades, I struggle to accept that Hollywood's finest are somehow incapable of that same feat.

What it boils down to is risk vs gain? What do they hope to gain by rendering TOR noncanon? Virtually nothing. Maybe an insignificant additional degree of freedom to write in. What do they risk by doing that? Pissing off hardcore fans, long time players and fans of that era, by throwing away a very interesting era of Star Wars history.

And on the note of Clone Wars... what? It didn't eliminate "Traviss-style Mandalorians", it just altered exactly what they were doing during the Clone Wars. Yes it fucked with the lore she'd established, but nothing about it retconned the entire Mandalorian lore away. In fact, the Death Watch began in the EU, as a group opposed to Jaster Mereel new guidelines for Mandalorian behavior, being lead by Tor Vizla. During the Clone Wars, they're lead by Pre Vizla and fight against Satine's new pacifist movement.

AND... Asajj Ventress' race change from Ratattaki to Dathomirian did not mean that the Ratattaki ceased to exist. In fact, in the story for her that has been accepted as canon up to now, the Ratattaki still very explicity DO exist, as she was taken as a slave BY them. The guy who's job it's been to keep the canon relatively straight has suggested that she shaved her head to intentionally fit in better with the local population.

Again... I'm not really sure why the idea of using Jaina... and creating NEW stories for her is such a difficult one? If the entire post-RotJ EU doesn't exist any more, there's no constraints for what her story is any more. I don't get why you think it would be restrictive to use her character when the EU is already being wiped clean for that era. (I clarify "for that era" because best I can tell that's still the only thing they've basically said with 100% clarity. As far as I can see, most anything else is still speculation and rumor.)

There IS no accessibility issue OR existing publication history. That's the entire thing that started this thread to begin with. That stuff never happened. Fans who are hardcore enough to know who Jaina is have already heard that the post-RotJ EU is non-canon, so they won't be confused. Anyone who doesn't know about this new EU stuff probably doesn't know who Jaina is and won't even be aware anything has ever been written about her before.

Again, I ask, risk vs gain? They can literally write Jaina into ANY story they want, and can appease at least some of the EU fans that way. By not doing so, they gain virtually nothing, and risk losing the interest of some long-time, very dedicated Star Wars fans. Sure, they might lose them anyway, but again... what have they got to lose? Using a character who is not in any way restricted by the confines of an existing story any more doesn't really limit them in any way, except by having to stay somewhat true to that character's personality. They already have to do that with the entire returning cast of Star Wars, will one more break their entire movie?

You keep making it sound like they should just kick the long term fans to the curb and go "hey, sucks to be you", which... ignoring for a moment how much of a repugnant way that is to treat the fans who have kept the franchise ALIVE for this long, just because they might not need their cash any more... its simply a bad business move to not even take the smallest, most insignificant steps to try and appease them. I mean, these are the fans who kept Star Wars alive in the time between Jedi and Phantom Menace, who didn't let the utter terribleness of the prequel trilogy deter them from loving Star Wars. These are some loyal damned fans, and Disney would be smart to at least TRY to get the best of both worlds. If they fail to appease them, oh well, they'll still get all the new fan money.

Frankly, maybe I'm wrong. Maybe they're making all the best business decisions. Regardless, if Star Wars becomes the kind of franchise that discards its die hard fans the moment they cease being the biggest possible demographic, I'm done with it. I'll stick to the old stories and make my own canon through roleplay. Even George Lucas, for the many ways he pissed off his fans to no end, at least understood the importance of having them to some degree. He elevated the 501st Legion into undeniable canon, he adopted elements and even a few characters from the EU when he could manage it. Basically, I think, for all his futile attempts to keep Star Wars 'his vision', he at least seemed to understand that the fans wanted to be more than just viewers, they wanted to be a PART of Star Wars.

I can only hope Disney will keep that in mind. As cheesy as it might sound, I've always been one of those fans who thought of Star Wars as more than just a neat little sci-fi series, it was a big, wonderful universe full of possibilities; not just some vehicle for safe and polished cinematic profit-makers, and its related spinoffs.

Yeah... I know, I'm a big dumb Star Wars nerd xD; ... but hey, I'm passionate about something, and I can be proud of that xD

Edit: Fixed a little bit up above where I forgot to finish a thought. (The part about TOR's story being non-canon would make the story less interesting to new-comers.)

Edit Edit: ... and another one in the same paragraph. God I couldn't English very well when I wrote this.
« Last Edit: May 05, 2014, 01:40:21 PM by Florence »

Offline consortium11

Re: Star Wars- EU and the Sequel Trilogy
« Reply #23 on: May 05, 2014, 12:03:48 PM »
Again... I'm not really sure why the idea of using Jaina... and creating NEW stories for her is such a difficult one? If the entire post-RotJ EU doesn't exist any more, there's no constraints for what her story is any more. I don't get why you think it would be restrictive to use her character when the EU is already being wiped clean for that era. (I clarify "for that era" because best I can tell that's still the only thing they've basically said with 100% clarity. As far as I can see, most anything else is still speculation and rumor.)

This is/was my first thought as well... a reimagination/retcon of the EU and all that it includes. Perhaps they will press the big red reset button an wipe everything completely before starting again, but it makes more sense for me that they'll take the things they like from the existing EU... be it characters, plots or concepts... and build their new canon around that while adding and subtracting what they want. In essence it could be little different to the times the big two in comics have done a company wide reset (the most notable being DC's Crisis on Infinite Earths), allowing them to tell roughly the same type of stories with roughly the same characters but without having to work in and around decades of other stories, events and official canon.

To go with the simplest idea, assuming Jaina is the main (or at least a major) character in the new films and they don't want to have a child (or early teen) protagonist but have her be in her late teens/early 20's, using the existing EU the only story they could really tell would be the Yuuzhan Vong War. But what if they don't want to do the Yuuzhan Vong War (a storyline which isn't a particular favorite of many Star Wars fans)? Or what if they do want to include it but make some significant changes? Following a strict EU they can't... pretty much every detail of Jaina's life during that period and the Yuuzhan Vong War itself are set out in detail. Now, they can. They might remove the Yuuzhan Vong entirely. They may push the invasion back. They may include the invasion but have it happen in a different way. The may move the Second Imperium story back a few years to do it with an adult instead of child Jaina. There's lots they can now do that strictly following the EU they can't. And they don't have to worry about making sure any changes they make fit in with EU stories set later in the timeline.

Offline Chris Brady

Re: Star Wars- EU and the Sequel Trilogy
« Reply #24 on: May 05, 2014, 02:46:19 PM »
There is no reimagining or retcon.  It's a removal.  A separation.