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Author Topic: CthulhuTech - Sectarian Crimes [Full]  (Read 3956 times)

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Offline ReijiTabibito

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Re: CthulhuTech - Sectarian Crimes [Full]
« Reply #100 on: April 18, 2014, 01:14:05 AM »
What gear are you wanting to have?

All I would really want would be the armored coat.  You can skip the DU rounds, and the special machine pistol, too - if you really wanted to stretch it and give me the special model, that's fine, but I would imagine it would be the sort of thing you'd check out for a cult raid situation.  Not a sidearm.  But all I want's access to the training and the coat.


I'm fine with the explanation of special training or similar (SWAT training, etc), but would prefer to avoid involving the Special Services at all.  Any gear or training would be through FSB/OIS/Military means (even if normally limited to the Special Services, so I am handwaving some of the canon), the asset is just used to cover the 'cost' out of game and may not be a good investment. 

Advanced Combat Training.  Nearly every law enforcement agency on the planet has it.  In the police, it's called SWAT.  For the FSB, who I picture as the NEG's FBI, there would be something like the HRT - Hostage Rescue Team, who are essentially national-level trained SWAT operators.

Offline CarnivalOfTheGoat

Re: CthulhuTech - Sectarian Crimes [Full]
« Reply #101 on: April 18, 2014, 01:15:12 AM »
You can't say that OIS has advanced combat training that is near-equal to that of SpecServices and expect that the FSB - which is the bigger and more widespread agency - doesn't have it, as well.  If OIS gets it, then so should the Feds.

RAW, the OIS has things that the FSB doesn't. They have a bigger purview for dealing with creepier things, and they often step in and take over from the FSB when those things come up. The SS has things that the OIS doesn't, and it deals with REALLY off the hook stuff and can step in and take over from damn near anyone whenever it feels like it.

But since you chose to put words in my mouth, what I'm saying, for the record, is that it's NOT standard for OIS or the Feds to have access to that per the RAW definition of what kind of people tend to have Gunplay: SMG, I put forward an unusual case, which is explained by basically years and years of specialized training that's atypical of the OIS, and that is why I said 'No, really, that's probably not something to explain away with a few weeks or a month of cross-training,' in the same way that you wouldn't pick up nTh-level black belt in any other martial art with just a few weeks or a month of cross-training.

Advanced Combat Training.  Nearly every law enforcement agency on the planet has it.  In the police, it's called SWAT.  For the FSB, who I picture as the NEG's FBI, there would be something like the HRT - Hostage Rescue Team, who are essentially national-level trained SWAT operators.

The FSB has SPAT teams. You'll notice that SWAT isn't on the list for GP:SMG, even normal special ops aren't on that list. It's elite units. And if you think the FBI's HRT team or even TFR compares to an elite unit (SEAL, SAS, GSG) well, okay, fine. CAT comes close, but they're SS (the real one).

But they're really on a whole 'nother level.

EDIT: My bad, the FSB does not have SPAT. The OIS does.
« Last Edit: April 18, 2014, 01:24:27 AM by CarnivalOfTheGoat »

Offline ReijiTabibito

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Re: CthulhuTech - Sectarian Crimes [Full]
« Reply #102 on: April 18, 2014, 02:43:13 AM »
I'm fine with the explanation of special training or similar (SWAT training, etc), but would prefer to avoid involving the Special Services at all.  Any gear or training would be through FSB/OIS/Military means (even if normally limited to the Special Services, so I am handwaving some of the canon), the asset is just used to cover the 'cost' out of game and may not be a good investment. 

Also, I'm 100% fine with leaving out the Special Services.  Technically, there are really only supposed to be people - both FSB and OIS - who know of them directly.  Most of the agencies know them as 'those dark-coated bastards who walk in and take over everything'. 

Sounds like we've got a settled ruling, then.

Offline JadedTopic starter

Re: CthulhuTech - Sectarian Crimes [Full]
« Reply #103 on: April 18, 2014, 05:10:05 PM »
As I said I am fine with the Asset being used to explain intensive training through a different organization.  My only issue is that it looks like both of you are taking the Submachine Gun Cascade and an Armoured Coat?

Offline CarnivalOfTheGoat

Re: CthulhuTech - Sectarian Crimes [Full]
« Reply #104 on: April 18, 2014, 05:47:30 PM »
As I said I am fine with the Asset being used to explain intensive training through a different organization.  My only issue is that it looks like both of you are taking the Submachine Gun Cascade and an Armoured Coat?

I don't know...It's the latest style in Paris. <_< Courtesy of Cretin D'Oribble.

Offline ReijiTabibito

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Re: CthulhuTech - Sectarian Crimes [Full]
« Reply #105 on: April 18, 2014, 06:03:57 PM »
Well, to be fair, Jade, there's only so much we could take.  In terms of the Cascade, it would be one of three - Handgun, Submachine Gun, and Rifle.  Handgun is available to pretty much anyone that needs to use firearms on a regular basis (IE, not an Arcanotechnician, but an FSB agent, sure).  If I wanted Rifle, I would just be a military person like Dan.  Submachine Gun is about the only one I would need specialized training like this to justify.  Also, you noted that rifles are more a 'raid only' weapon.

As for the equipment, there's only three pieces , as well - the Armored Coat, the Special Service Machine Pistol, and DU Rounds.  You've already made it clear your stance on DU Rounds, so that leaves us 50-50 on the equipment.  And I picture the SpecService Machine Pistol to be more of a 'raid only' weapon, like rifles.  Which leaves the Coat.

Offline ChaoticSky

Re: CthulhuTech - Sectarian Crimes [Full]
« Reply #106 on: April 18, 2014, 06:24:07 PM »
Im just going to toss this out there...

When it comes to CT, my preference goes Tager>Engel>Mecha>everything else, but this is a FSB game, so im playing a FSB employee. But it seems like alot of people are trying to... come at this crabwise, werid training and loaned agents and similar such things. It might be abit... neater, if we all just played FSB people?

I mean, by the GM's stance, i could have gone for a nazzadi mecha pilot in one of those tiny almost-power armour mechas. That would suit my preferences. But not the game. Which is why i never proposed it.
« Last Edit: April 18, 2014, 06:25:36 PM by Darkling »

Offline JadedTopic starter

Re: CthulhuTech - Sectarian Crimes [Full]
« Reply #107 on: April 18, 2014, 08:13:31 PM »
I'd just prefer to avoid too much overlap, and I guess I'm not sure I get the attraction to submachine guns specifically (too much spray and pray will be getting people in trouble).  Any reason you want submachine guns over pistols?

I left things open to give people more options, but at the same time, this isn't specifically intended to be a combat focused game so a cascade or similar isn't a requirement I wouldn't think.

Darkling has a point.  On the one hand, I feel bad saying one person can do this but another can't, but conversely I do want some semi-regular agents. 

Offline SGTDan

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Re: CthulhuTech - Sectarian Crimes [Full]
« Reply #108 on: April 18, 2014, 08:22:25 PM »
Well Jaded, you have...

Me as the NEGA liason
Pink decided to go FSB Agent
Carn is a OIS Agent
Muse is a FSB Agent
Darkling is going to be some kind para psychic

So you have two FSB Agents so far

Offline ReijiTabibito

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Re: CthulhuTech - Sectarian Crimes [Full]
« Reply #109 on: April 18, 2014, 08:24:01 PM »
The thing about submachine guns is that they're highly useful for short-range fighting, but pack more ammunition than your standard handgun (which is why LEOs raiding something like a drug operation will use them).  In CTech terms, it's mainly because of the Cascade.  Each Cascade is made up of a handful of moves that can be chained together, if the character has the reflexes for them.

The Handgun Gunplay Cascade is, for the most part, crap.  It consists of moves that are found in the other sets (such as Snap Shot), or are highly specialized for use (such as Split Fire, which requires the user to be carrying a gun in each hand, and just lets the player fire one at two targets).  Handgun lacks any sort of 'extra damage' move, such as Double Tap - which any veteran LEO or military man will tell you is required when you're using something as small as a handgun.

Submachinegun, on the other hand, has the infinitely useful Three-Round Burst and Suppression moves, which allow you to either inflict extra damage on an opponent, or force any opponents that move through your line of fire to make a Dodge roll to avoid taking a hit.

And I'm going to be an FSB Agent - a Sorcerer, too.  All I want is this one combat option, and you'll never hear from me again on it.

Offline SGTDan

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Re: CthulhuTech - Sectarian Crimes [Full]
« Reply #110 on: April 18, 2014, 08:30:41 PM »
I will mention that SMG Cascade seems really OP from my standpoint given what you can do with it. I mean it has the most moves of any of them, not to mention some of the most unrealistic moves ever.


Offline CarnivalOfTheGoat

Re: CthulhuTech - Sectarian Crimes [Full]
« Reply #111 on: April 18, 2014, 08:33:07 PM »
Para-psychic is an entirely possible role for an FSB agent. They do have them.

The FSB's mandate is to deal with cults. The OIS's mandate is to deal with the supernatural. Unfortunately, if a cult gets enough power, it tends to invite the supernatural over for a cup of tea. (And the Special Service's mandate is to deal with 'This is way over your heads, because we said so.')

That's why the FSB tends to have mostly sensory para-psychics and investigative sorcerors on the payroll, while the OIS tends to snap up 'combat' para-psychics and sorcerors. (And the SS is almost entirely hard-hitting para-psychics and sorcerors). This is also why the OIS gets SPAT instead of SWAT.

I created Moth the way I did because the last FSB game I was in had a bunch of detectives and nobody with any firepower. At the time I started work on her, nobody had posted anything that suggested we'd have a ton of firepower. I figured (wrongly) that it'd be a bunch more investigators who wanted to do CSI, and I thought it would be a good idea to bring along someone who could deal with 'what happens if the cult succeeds in summoning something bad, or there's a hardcore psyker or sorceror involved.' And I got to thinking about that and happened to re-watch the original French LFK a few nights ago and thought it would be interesting to take a White (who are by default flipping mutants with psyker capabilities) and have her be an experimental 'How to have someone undercover who nevertheless can bring a lot of force to bear that an eldritch monstrosity might pause at.' I went MPs with GP:SMG, again going with the assumption that she might have to hold the line if the other players didn't have monster-level weaponry.

Unfortunately, instead it seems to've created an arms-race.

Would you prefer I created a different character?

I will mention that SMG Cascade seems really OP from my standpoint given what you can do with it. I mean it has the most moves of any of them, not to mention some of the most unrealistic moves ever.

Actually, I think the one with the most is Eldritch Society Ninjutsu. And all of them are supposed to be cinematic Hong Kong Gun-Fu. Not realistic. They explicitly say so.

EDIT: Nope, it's Handgun. Funny that, given how it's "weak."

Cascade move counts (not that this particularly affects OP-ness, since you still can only use 2 or 3 actions in total depending on your character's actions):

Hun-Zuti: 7/9 Special moves: Fast-draw, Move opponent, trip opponent, opponent loses action

NEG UC: 6/9 Special moves: Fast-draw, Move opponent, entangle

Ninjutsu: 6/10/6/8 Special moves: disappear, disengage, fast-draw, move opponent, opponent loses action

NEG Kendo: 7/11 Special moves: reduces attacker Reflex, reduces attacker Defense, opponent loses action, double attack

Handgun: 11/17 Special moves: move to cover while shooting, double-fire without splitting dice, instant reload, ricochet round behind target in cover, attack two targets within 180' of each other without splitting dice, use handgun as melee weapon

Rifle: 9/12 Special moves: move to cover while shooting, extra damage on attack, instant reload, ricochet round behind target in cover, attack two targets within 180' of each other without splitting dice, attack target to your rear at no penalty, lay down suppressive fire in a 180' arc, three-round burst, use rifle as melee weapon

SMG: 13/12 Special moves: Suppress in two 180' arcs (overlapping or not), 3 round burst (either hand singly), instant reload, 3 round burst (both hands), 3 round burst two targets within 180' of each other.

Please explain to me how Handgun is horribly weak when you can move to cover while shooting accurately and negate cover with bullet ricochets, neither of which is available in SMG. Is SMG more offensively oriented? Yes. It's using weapons that can do burst fire.

I don't think they should've used double-tapping to describe what rifle is doing there. Doubtle-tapping is an element of handgun ROF/controllability and skill. Previous to Vade Mecum I'd always thought that was why designers tended to have the big-bores with the lower ROF (even when the slide on a Desert Eagle cycles just as quickly as the slide on a 10mm).

« Last Edit: April 18, 2014, 09:04:47 PM by CarnivalOfTheGoat »

Offline SGTDan

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Re: CthulhuTech - Sectarian Crimes [Full]
« Reply #112 on: April 18, 2014, 08:51:02 PM »
That's funny Carn, I thought the exact opposite as you. When I say the title of this game, I thought everyone would go the CSI route and I wanted to bring some firepower to help. Oh how things change!

Also i did some research, SFOD can wear whatever the fuck they want on and off duty.

Offline CarnivalOfTheGoat

Re: CthulhuTech - Sectarian Crimes [Full]
« Reply #113 on: April 18, 2014, 09:01:49 PM »
That's funny Carn, I thought the exact opposite as you. When I say the title of this game, I thought everyone would go the CSI route and I wanted to bring some firepower to help. Oh how things change!

Also i did some research, SFOD can wear whatever the fuck they want on and off duty.

No...In that case, you thought the exact same as me, because that is exactly why I thought I should bring the firepower.

Offline SGTDan

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Re: CthulhuTech - Sectarian Crimes [Full]
« Reply #114 on: April 18, 2014, 09:06:52 PM »
So I did Carn, my god toady my brain is out on the beach.

Speaking of big bores...heavy pistols have stupidly large cartridges, 15 mm is impossibly large for a handgun.

Offline CarnivalOfTheGoat

Re: CthulhuTech - Sectarian Crimes [Full]
« Reply #115 on: April 18, 2014, 09:23:12 PM »
So I did Carn, my god toady my brain is out on the beach.

Speaking of big bores...heavy pistols have stupidly large cartridges, 15 mm is impossibly large for a handgun.

Game-designers, man. Maybe it's magazine-forward, like a Mauser? But that'd be hell to grip around if it was a magazine in the grip, yes. Even the Eagles have a grip too large for many people to correctly hold.

I personally have hands that are on the small side, and can't manage a stock 1911 without switching out the grip panels and having the rear strap smithed for one that isn't so rounded. Oddly, I could use the 'stack-and-a-half' Para-Ordnance models, but they had (1) hyper-thin side panels and (2) not such an elongated grip cross-section as the original 1911.
« Last Edit: April 18, 2014, 09:27:36 PM by CarnivalOfTheGoat »

Offline ReijiTabibito

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Re: CthulhuTech - Sectarian Crimes [Full]
« Reply #116 on: April 18, 2014, 09:34:09 PM »
Unfortunately, instead it seems to've created an arms-race.

Nobody wants to be the dead weight in combat.  That's a consistent thing I've seen across every group.  And for the most part, games require combat- conflict of a violent nature - as part of their world.  There are games, such as Golden Sky Stories, that have nonviolent conflict, but that's the minority of them.


Actually, I think the one with the most is Eldritch Society Ninjutsu. And all of them are supposed to be cinematic Hong Kong Gun-Fu. Not realistic. They explicitly say so.

EDIT: Nope, it's Handgun. Funny that, given how it's "weak."

Cascade move counts (not that this particularly affects OP-ness, since you still can only use 2 or 3 actions in total depending on your character's actions):

Hun-Zuti: 7/9 Special moves: Fast-draw, Move opponent, trip opponent, opponent loses action

NEG UC: 6/9 Special moves: Fast-draw, Move opponent, entangle

Ninjutsu: 6/10/6/8 Special moves: disappear, disengage, fast-draw, move opponent, opponent loses action

NEG Kendo: 7/11 Special moves: reduces attacker Reflex, reduces attacker Defense, opponent loses action, double attack

Handgun: 11/17 Special moves: move to cover while shooting, double-fire without splitting dice, instant reload, ricochet round behind target in cover, attack two targets within 180' of each other without splitting dice, use handgun as melee weapon

Rifle: 9/12 Special moves: move to cover while shooting, extra damage on attack, instant reload, ricochet round behind target in cover, attack two targets within 180' of each other without splitting dice, attack target to your rear at no penalty, lay down suppressive fire in a 180' arc, three-round burst, use rifle as melee weapon

SMG: 13/12 Special moves: Suppress in two 180' arcs (overlapping or not), 3 round burst (either hand singly), instant reload, 3 round burst (both hands), 3 round burst two targets within 180' of each other.

I don't think we're counting moves the same way.  The way I look at them, the melee Cascades each have 6 moves (except Ninjitsu, which has 8), and the Gunplay Cascades have 8 to 10 moves (HG 8, Rifle 9, SMG 10).

Please explain to me how Handgun is horribly weak when you can move to cover while shooting accurately and negate cover with bullet ricochets, neither of which is available in SMG. Is SMG more offensively oriented? Yes. It's using weapons that can do burst fire.

I don't think they should've used double-tapping to describe what rifle is doing there. Doubtle-tapping is an element of handgun ROF/controllability and skill. Previous to Vade Mecum I'd always thought that was why designers tended to have the big-bores with the lower ROF (even when the slide on a Desert Eagle cycles just as quickly as the slide on a 10mm).

Forgive me.  Perhaps I misstated when I said it was 'crap.'  It is 'mostly offensively crap.'  The Dive move - move to cover while shooting - is also a part of the Rifle Cascade, and while Ricochet sounds useful, it's just a simple 1-1 trade from where I stand.  Cover gives you, at most, a +4 Test Bonus to any sort of defensive roll.  Maybe a die's worth of damage.  At the same time, the Ricochet move costs a dice of damage.  If Cover gave a bigger defensive bonus, I'd consider the ability to negate useful.

And even if double-tapping is an element of control and skill, it still stands that a double-tap does extra damage.

Offline SGTDan

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Re: CthulhuTech - Sectarian Crimes [Full]
« Reply #117 on: April 18, 2014, 09:36:29 PM »
Game-designers, man. Maybe it's magazine-forward, like a Mauser? But that'd be hell to grip around if it was a magazine in the grip, yes. Even the Eagles have a grip too large for many people to correctly hold.

I personally have hands that are on the small side, and can't manage a stock 1911 without switching out the grip panels and having the rear strap smithed for one that isn't so rounded. Oddly, I could use the 'stack-and-a-half' Para-Ordnance models, but they had (1) hyper-thin side panels and (2) not such an elongated grip cross-section as the original 1911.
15mm is aircraft cannon in your hands, it boggles my mind...even a .50 is roughly 12 mm. Even if the magazine was forward, the weight would throw your aim off.

I mean...

I mean...that's a comparison to 7.62

Just silly choice on the designers part. I love 1911, .45 is my favorite caliber but it is a big pistol for smaller hands. What's your favorite pistol Carn?
« Last Edit: April 18, 2014, 09:38:15 PM by SGTDan »

Offline CarnivalOfTheGoat

Re: CthulhuTech - Sectarian Crimes [Full]
« Reply #118 on: April 18, 2014, 09:38:27 PM »
Thought:

All of the Cascades are optional rules. All of them.

Rather than keep up all of this fuss, we can simply push everything down to the same level and use the normal rules-as-written in the Core Book: no cascades; if people want to two-fist then they use the rules on p.123 and take the full penalty; no modifiers to multi-action combat turns via Cascades. If people want to dive for cover it takes a full action and they don't get to shoot. If people want to do suppressive fire or a three-round burst then they need an autofire weapon. No skipping bullets behind barricades, no melee stuns, entangles, or effects that cause an opponent to lose an action. No special coats, no nothing. You can shoot things. You can punch things. You can cut things. End of story.

Just level the whole playing field with a bulldozer and a grader, pretend those parts of Vade Mecum and Damnation View don't exist, and move on, so nobody is tempted to build their entire character around the idea of getting a single special super-uber-OP combative (or argue about whether it is super-uber-and-OP) and nobody is worrying about whether someone else's character having something means that theirs should, too.

Offline ReijiTabibito

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Re: CthulhuTech - Sectarian Crimes [Full]
« Reply #119 on: April 18, 2014, 09:41:14 PM »
Or, if we want to keep the ranged Cascade (because that is what we're debating, not the melee Cascades), Jade could just go ahead and guarantee that 95% of the time, we're not going to be facing anything more complicated than a cultist carrying a Granny Gun.

Offline CarnivalOfTheGoat

Re: CthulhuTech - Sectarian Crimes [Full]
« Reply #120 on: April 18, 2014, 09:42:07 PM »
Or, if we want to keep the ranged Cascade (because that is what we're debating, not the melee Cascades), Jade could just go ahead and guarantee that 95% of the time, we're not going to be facing anything more complicated than a cultist carrying a Granny Gun.

Keeping the thing we're debating does not seem like a good way to stop the debate and get on.

Offline ReijiTabibito

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Re: CthulhuTech - Sectarian Crimes [Full]
« Reply #121 on: April 18, 2014, 09:45:44 PM »
The debate is, I admit, mostly entirely on my end.  I'm just trying to avoid being the dead weight in combat.  I don't mind taking the Handgun option.  I just want to know that it's going to be useful.

EDIT:  Do note that if I do, though, I am carrying a pair of handguns and storing an SMG in the locker for raids and such occasions.

Or maybe I'll just say 'screw it' to the ranged Cascades and go for Kendo and a Sword Cane/Katana.  Not sure which I'd pick, there.
« Last Edit: April 18, 2014, 09:54:26 PM by ReijiTabibito »

Offline SGTDan

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Re: CthulhuTech - Sectarian Crimes [Full]
« Reply #122 on: April 18, 2014, 09:50:17 PM »
Reji, with me and Carn Handguns will be sufficient to be helpful in combat. Me and Carn will be towing the line in combat but it won't be making you useless as long as you have the basics. Besides a majority of this game will involve investigation.

As a buddy of mine who served in the Army said to me,

"A operation is days of preparation for thirty seconds of action"
« Last Edit: April 18, 2014, 09:51:52 PM by SGTDan »

Offline CarnivalOfTheGoat

Re: CthulhuTech - Sectarian Crimes [Full]
« Reply #123 on: April 18, 2014, 10:01:47 PM »
Reji, with me and Carn Handguns will be sufficient to be helpful in combat. Me and Carn will be towing the line in combat but it won't be making you useless as long as you have the basics. Besides a majority of this game will involve investigation.

As a buddy of mine who served in the Army said to me,

"A operation is days of preparation for thirty seconds of action"

I've also heard "365 days of training, thirty-six seconds of terror." I'm sure there are many variations on the theme.

We know this isn't going to be gunbattle after gunbattle, we've already gotten that assurance from Jaded.

Offline CarnivalOfTheGoat

Re: CthulhuTech - Sectarian Crimes [Full]
« Reply #124 on: April 18, 2014, 10:04:15 PM »
The other thing I keep seeing is 'for raids'. Which is why the MPs rather than full-size SMGs...Because MPs can be hidden. (Honestly, so can many full-size SMGs, but anyway).

Raids are not what to worry about. Raids take place with medical support on tap, backup, additional teams of officers, etc.

The thing to worry about is 'If we'd known we were going to run into this we'd have called a raid. With nukes. Oops.' And that's another reason the handgun cascade is useful in ways the Rifle isn't. Concealability, and always having it with you counts a lot stronger than the massive firepower you left on the other side of town.