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Author Topic: Homeless Mom Arrested After Leaving Kids in Car During Job Interview  (Read 2724 times)

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Offline Dim Hon

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Re: Homeless Mom Arrested After Leaving Kids in Car During Job Interview
« Reply #25 on: April 16, 2014, 10:17:09 PM »
For comparison, another mother in Arizona got high and forgot she had put her baby's seat (with baby strapped inside) on the roof of her car and drove for 12 miles before realising what she had done. Too late. The seat was not there where she stopped, it had fallen in the middle of the freeway.

The baby was recovered unharmed, but it was a much more dire endangerment. She got sentenced recently, and got... probation. Source

It's mind boggling.


Offline Falanor

Re: Homeless Mom Arrested After Leaving Kids in Car During Job Interview
« Reply #26 on: April 19, 2014, 04:07:30 PM »
Not saying what the woman did with her baby on the roof of the car is right.  Keep in mind she's got 16 years of probation.  That's not a person living a standard life.  She'll be randomly drug tested constantly.  She'll have to regularly schedule meetings with a probation officer.  She's got a lot of things that her life will be altered by.  If she violates these, then she could spend however many years of probation she has left behind bars.

Offline Pumpkin Seeds

Re: Homeless Mom Arrested After Leaving Kids in Car During Job Interview
« Reply #27 on: April 19, 2014, 04:48:48 PM »
Well I think Utah has the right idea of it so far with their distribution of housing.  Also a public daycare of sometime has long been something that has to be addressed as more households are either two income or one income parent households.  This coupled with the rising cost of daycare and young childhood education is leading up to a tipping point of their needing to be a public daycare service provided by the government in order to assist low income and homeless members of the population.

Offline ValthazarTopic starter

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Re: Homeless Mom Arrested After Leaving Kids in Car During Job Interview
« Reply #28 on: April 19, 2014, 05:00:48 PM »
This coupled with the rising cost of daycare and young childhood education is leading up to a tipping point of their needing to be a public daycare service provided by the government in order to assist low income and homeless members of the population.

If we are going to have such a program, I think there should be a corresponding program to encourage those who cannot afford children, to not have children.

Offline Kythia

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Re: Homeless Mom Arrested After Leaving Kids in Car During Job Interview
« Reply #29 on: April 19, 2014, 05:05:29 PM »
If we are going to have such a program, I think there should be a corresponding program to encourage those who cannot afford children, to not have children.

Absolutely.  Free access to birth control and abortions is really important.

Offline ValthazarTopic starter

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Re: Homeless Mom Arrested After Leaving Kids in Car During Job Interview
« Reply #30 on: April 19, 2014, 05:19:35 PM »
Absolutely.  Free access to birth control and abortions is really important.

That would certainly help. Though it is unfortunately unlikely to realistically be implemented in a private healthcare system, unless Medicaid was expanded even more so than it already is.  ACA already tried this, and only 25 States wanted to.

Many of these low income parents have two or more children, for example, which makes me question their decision making. There needs to be some sort of negative feedback mechanism built into our infrastructure that makes people understand after their first child, that they really should avoid having more.

Offline Kythia

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Re: Homeless Mom Arrested After Leaving Kids in Car During Job Interview
« Reply #31 on: April 19, 2014, 06:45:16 PM »
That would certainly help. Though it is unfortunately unlikely to realistically be implemented in a private healthcare system, unless Medicaid was expanded even more so than it already is.  ACA already tried this, and only 25 States wanted to.

Many of these low income parents have two or more children, for example, which makes me question their decision making. There needs to be some sort of negative feedback mechanism built into our infrastructure that makes people understand after their first child, that they really should avoid having more.

Errr....

How do you propose they avoid having more?  Is your argument "poor people shouldn't be allowed to have sex".  Because if its anything else, then your sole problem is with a system that prevents access to birth control and abortions.

A "negative feedback mechanism" without that increased access is just a method of punishing people for having sex.

Offline ValthazarTopic starter

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Re: Homeless Mom Arrested After Leaving Kids in Car During Job Interview
« Reply #32 on: April 19, 2014, 07:06:15 PM »
No, I'm agreeing with you that these people need to have increased, subsidized (or free) access to birth control and abortions.  I was just saying that at this point in the game, based on how Medicaid expansion failed in half the states, it is unlikely to realistically be a possibility in the US.  Obamacare is not getting overturned anytime soon, unfortunately.



Offline Kythia

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Re: Homeless Mom Arrested After Leaving Kids in Car During Job Interview
« Reply #33 on: April 19, 2014, 07:12:13 PM »
So, would you still support:

If we are going to have such a program, I think there should be a corresponding program to encourage those who cannot afford children, to not have children.

even though we agree that increased access is a prerequisite?

Offline ValthazarTopic starter

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Re: Homeless Mom Arrested After Leaving Kids in Car During Job Interview
« Reply #34 on: April 19, 2014, 07:25:26 PM »
Of course.  Even if we did ever offer free birth control and abortions, I don't think that alone would solve this problem, though we should certainly try to push for it.  The Affordable Care Act has made it impossible though.  There's an aspect of personal responsibility as well (getting people to actually go to their doctors to pick up this contraception, making sure they actually use condoms, having the responsibility to pay any small co-pays, etc. .)

There's also a lack of importance placed in fatherhood in many of these low income communities, largely due to rampant drug problems.  I believe that working to solve this issue will help many of these communities immensely.

Education is another big one.  I kid you not, there are countless kids graduating high school who cannot read past a 3rd grade level, and this prevents them from ever getting employed.

Offline Kythia

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Re: Homeless Mom Arrested After Leaving Kids in Car During Job Interview
« Reply #35 on: April 19, 2014, 07:28:25 PM »
Of course.  Even if we did ever offer free birth control and abortions, I don't think that alone would solve this problem, though we should certainly try to push for it.  The Affordable Care Act has made it impossible though.  There's an aspect of personal responsibility as well (getting people to actually go to their doctors to pick up this contraception, making sure they actually use condoms, having the responsibility to pay any small co-pays, etc. .)

There's also a lack of importance placed in fatherhood in many of these low income communities, largely due to rampant drug problems.  I believe that working to solve this issue will help many of these communities immensely.

Education is another big one.  I kid you not, there are countless kids graduating high school who cannot read past a 3rd grade level, and this prevents them from ever getting employed.


So wait.  I'm sorry if it looks like I'm repeating myself but I'm just checking because I suspect one or both of us is misunderstanding.

We agree that without easier and subsidized access to birth control and abortions, the program you suggest is nothing more than a way of taxing poor women for having sex.  And yet, despite that agreement, you think its still a good idea?

Offline ValthazarTopic starter

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Re: Homeless Mom Arrested After Leaving Kids in Car During Job Interview
« Reply #36 on: April 19, 2014, 07:38:21 PM »
I am confused, I'm agreeing fully with you.

I am just saying that it is unlikely that we are going to see free birth control and abortions in the US anytime soon, even though we both think it would be a good idea. The ACA has made it even more difficult to achieve now.

What program have I suggested that would tax women to have sex?  So far I suggested more initiatives to increase the role of fathers, and improving educational standards.

What I would say though, is that as far as free daycare service, there should be some sort of a cap, or limit on this.  While from an ethical perspective, we should offer this even if a homeless person has 6 children, realistically, we must also be fiscally conscious.

Offline Kythia

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Re: Homeless Mom Arrested After Leaving Kids in Car During Job Interview
« Reply #37 on: April 19, 2014, 07:44:34 PM »
What program have I suggested that would tax women to have sex? 

This one:

If we are going to have such a program, I think there should be a corresponding program to encourage those who cannot afford children, to not have children.

We seemed to agree that without free access to birth control and abortions it was nothing but a tax on poor women having sex

A recap
Without access to birth control and abortions, there is no reliable way to control pregnancy.  So each time they have sex, there is a chance of unavoidable pregnancy.  You aim to put negative repercussions on that pregnancy, hence you are putting negative repercussions on sex.  Assuming those repercussions are financial, you are taxing those people who can't afford a child for having sex.

Obviously you're only taxing the females - there are enough single mothers that basing that on families would be pointless and if the tax could be avoided by claiming you didn't know who the father was then everyone would do that.  The only way of making it work is to attach it entirely to the female.

and then when I asked in explicit terms:

So, would you still support:
<The statement you made>
even though we agree that increased access is a prerequisite?

you said:

Of course...

Offline ValthazarTopic starter

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Re: Homeless Mom Arrested After Leaving Kids in Car During Job Interview
« Reply #38 on: April 19, 2014, 07:54:15 PM »
The programs encouraging the role of fatherhood and educational standards were the corresponding programs I was referring to, as well as caps on daycare that Pumpkin Seeds mentioned. 

I never said tax in this entire discussion.  I'm not sure how you got the impression I was suggesting any sort of tax.  If anything, I used the word negative feedback incorrectly, giving off the impression that I was talking about taxes.

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Re: Homeless Mom Arrested After Leaving Kids in Car During Job Interview
« Reply #39 on: April 19, 2014, 08:04:08 PM »
The programs encouraging the role of fatherhood and educational standards were the corresponding programs I was referring to, as well as caps on daycare that Pumpkin Seeds mentioned. 

No, you weren't.  This is objectively a lie, Valthazar, and I'm not sure why you've made it. 

The programs regarding fatherhood and educational standards were mentioned for the first time in that same post.  I asked you if you still agreed with the program penalising people for having children they couldn't afford and you said "of course".  Noone in the world is going to believe you that you were referring to programs that hadn't even been mentioned.

If you've changed your mind about the initial program then that's great.  But it's just not clear whether you have or not.

Quote
I never said tax in this entire discussion.  I'm not sure how you got the impression I was suggesting any sort of tax.  If anything, I used the word negative feedback incorrectly, giving off the impression that I was talking about taxes.

Negative feedback and negative repercussions were what you said.  I would be intrigued to know what you had in mind then, other than financial.  Or, if you did mean financial, why you believe "a compulsory contribution to state revenue added to the transaction costs of having a child you cannot afford" is somehow different from "a tax".  For the avoidance of doubt, I refer you to the definition of a tax

Once again, Val, if you no longer support that program now you've thought about it then that's fine. Everyone changes their mind.   But at the moment you are outright lying (as above) to avoid saying that.

Offline ValthazarTopic starter

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Re: Homeless Mom Arrested After Leaving Kids in Car During Job Interview
« Reply #40 on: April 19, 2014, 08:22:08 PM »
I am not sure why you are trying to force a disagreement between us when we are in agreement.  I honestly was not referring to any sort of tax.  I've always been a strong proponent of the Medicaid and Medicare programs, as evidenced by many of my prior posts here on E.  It's the ACA that I criticize, and the corresponding lack of Medicaid expansion by half the United States which was purely a political move.

Since you asked what I meant by negative feedback, I was referring to daycare facilities having caps on the number of children per adult that were subsidized in full via the social aide program.  While they would permit additional children to be taken care of, it would come at the cost of additional co-pay by the client - which would thus influence people to have fewer children.  I happened to clarify this in a post following my initial, broad statement which first stated my desire for a policy which would limit the scope of public daycare services.

Nowhere was I suggesting any sort of compulsory contribution of money, and I would appreciate not being called a liar, especially when I don't even see a reason to lie, considering I use these forums purely as a hobby.

Offline Kythia

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Re: Homeless Mom Arrested After Leaving Kids in Car During Job Interview
« Reply #41 on: April 19, 2014, 08:37:58 PM »
I honestly was not referring to any sort of tax. 
<snip>
Since you asked what I meant by negative feedback, I was referring to daycare facilities having caps on the number of children per adult that were subsidized in full via the social aide program.  While they would permit additional children to be taken care of, it would come at the cost of additional co-pay by the client
<snip>

So you're proposing a system whereby parents who had children they couldn't afford would be forced to make payments to the government - co-pay to the social aide program - for accessing a service.  Val, that's a tax.  That's what a tax is.

And, as I have said repeatedly, if there's no free access to birth control and abortions, then that tax is levied at the poorest women for having sex. 

Offline ValthazarTopic starter

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Re: Homeless Mom Arrested After Leaving Kids in Car During Job Interview
« Reply #42 on: April 19, 2014, 08:45:37 PM »
Any government-coordinated daycare service would be offered through private daycare companies in the US via subsidies.  A "subsidized" daycare program would involve the government either paying a subsidy to the client to then purchase daycare services at a private daycare, or the subsidy going directly to private daycare centers.

Once the subsidy is extinguished, the remainder of the cost (for instance, beyond the maximum children per adult permitted via subsidy) is paid by the client directly to the private business.  Thus, it is not a tax - the government is not receiving any of this.  It's a voluntary, private transaction.  This is identical to how the Affordable Care Act works. 

Are co-pays on ACA exchange insurances considered a tax?  They are not.

Let us not argue for the sake of arguing.

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Re: Homeless Mom Arrested After Leaving Kids in Car During Job Interview
« Reply #43 on: April 19, 2014, 09:00:46 PM »
We're not arguing for the sake of arguing, Val.  I'm trying to make you see your proposed system imposes a cost on the poorest women in society (in fatc, it does so precisely because they're the poorest) for something that they potentially have no control over. 

While your system might make some degree of sense in a perfect world, without the free birth control and abortions all you're doing is removing the usefulness of the childcare from the most vulnerable people solely because you believe that they have too many children.  Even though, and I return to this, that isn't something they can control.  This is inhumane, Val, and I can't understand how you are - knowing all of this - still promoting it.

THAT'S why we're arguing. 

Offline ValthazarTopic starter

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Re: Homeless Mom Arrested After Leaving Kids in Car During Job Interview
« Reply #44 on: April 19, 2014, 09:13:37 PM »
While your system might make some degree of sense in a perfect world, without the free birth control and abortions all you're doing is removing the usefulness of the childcare from the most vulnerable people solely because you believe that they have too many children.

I am in agreement for a push towards offering free birth control and abortions.  In the United States, this would come via an expansion of Medicaid and Medicare.  The only thing I mentioned was that this is exceedingly unlikely to happen in the near future, due to prevailing views on Medicare/Medicaid expansion, which is a real shame.

I stated earlier that while from an ethical perspective we should offer subsidies even if a homeless person has 6 or 7 children, realistically, we must also be monetarily sensible.  I tend to value fiscal sensibility as the primary consideration in my view of any policy, as well as in my own life - and perhaps that's simply a value difference between us.  That value difference is not something we can debate.

That's also part of the reason I am neither a Democrat nor a Republican, because both of these parties waste money in their own ways.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2014, 09:14:47 PM by Valthazar »

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Re: Homeless Mom Arrested After Leaving Kids in Car During Job Interview
« Reply #45 on: April 19, 2014, 09:22:20 PM »
I stated earlier that while from an ethical perspective we should offer subsidies even if a homeless person has 6 or 7 children, realistically, we must also be monetarily sensible.  I tend to value fiscal sensibility as the primary consideration in my view of any policy, as well as in my own life - and perhaps that's simply a value difference between us.  That value difference is not something we can debate.

So you're happy with people suffering because it saves the government money.  What on earth do you think the government should spend that saved money on?  The $X they save by limiting free places in this program to two (or whatever), what should they do with it?  Anything other than "swim in it Scrooge MacDuck style" is going to negate your alleged fiscal sensibility so why not use it to remove the suffering of its citizens?

Bah.  This isn't gonna work.

Offline ValthazarTopic starter

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Re: Homeless Mom Arrested After Leaving Kids in Car During Job Interview
« Reply #46 on: April 19, 2014, 09:43:08 PM »
So you're happy with people suffering because it saves the government money.  What on earth do you think the government should spend that saved money on?  The $X they save by limiting free places in this program to two (or whatever), what should they do with it?  Anything other than "swim in it Scrooge MacDuck style" is going to negate your alleged fiscal sensibility so why not use it to remove the suffering of its citizens?

Bah.  This isn't gonna work.

I would hope that they consider restoring the fidelity of social security - and prevent it from going bankrupt (as it most certainly will).  I also hope they would spend more of it on improving America's aging infrastructure - roads, buildings etc.  Several of the gas mains in New York City, for example, are over 127 years old - and we recently had an explosion.  I also would like to see a drastic expansion of scholarship programs.

Decreasing budgetary expenditures would naturally, over time, correlate with a corresponding decreased need for revenue coming in.  Having more US dollars circulating in the private economy would decrease the need for the Treasury's continued printing of money - in an effort to "stimulate" the economy.  It is leading to high rates of inflation, and is only helping those of us who have money invested in the stock market (not the poor man or women).  I can assure you that this is going to hit all of us hard when it ends, and the US dollar, once a sign of confidence, is increasingly being viewed timidly by other countries.

I support the citizen's wage concept of paying all citizens a small yet reasonable sum of money per month, and then removing all social welfare and aide programs.  I was skeptical at first, but now think it makes a lot of sense.  It would be taxed no differently from earned income.  Though this is more of a fantasy than anything that is realistically plausible in the US.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2014, 09:44:56 PM by Valthazar »

Offline consortium11

Re: Homeless Mom Arrested After Leaving Kids in Car During Job Interview
« Reply #47 on: April 19, 2014, 10:03:46 PM »
So you're happy with people suffering because it saves the government money.

Such a criticism could be applied to pretty much every situation any government (real or hypothetical) finds itself in and thus becomes either meaningless or a simple rhetorical point; every government will have a budget and because of those confines (and for simplification I'm going to load gilt spending into that area) will have to make decisions about what it spends money on, decisions that will almost certainly lead to some people suffering. An easy and obvious example to use is something like NICE in the UK and the drugs it leads to being offered on the NHS; there are (many) drugs and treatments out there that can reduce suffering that aren't offered on the NHS because they're too expensive.

Moreover there's a difference between being monetarily sensible/fiscally sensible (technically they're two different things but I suspect Valthazar was using them to mean the same thing) and simply "saving money". A government completely shutting down and not spending a penny (outside of possibly the tax administration) would save them a lot of money... I doubt anyone (including anarchists) would view that as fiscally sensible.

What on earth do you think the government should spend that saved money on?  The $X they save by limiting free places in this program to two (or whatever), what should they do with it?  Anything other than "swim in it Scrooge MacDuck style" is going to negate your alleged fiscal sensibility so why not use it to remove the suffering of its citizens?

This is where the fiscally sensible part comes in. Assuming we're keeping overall tax income the same, could the money be more efficiently spent elsewhere? Would putting it towards debt reduction help in the long term? Would not spending it (and remembering that in the modern world economy we're essentially talking about debt spending here) do more good by reducing the deficit?

I should stress there's not necessarily a "right" answer to above question/examples and what you choose is likely to come down to your own political/economic views and the issues one cares about most. Someone more interested in strict fiscal responsibility is likely to argue in favour of reducing the debt or deficit (and support it by pointing out how this would help lower interest payments). Others would want it more directly spent... but where? Green issues? Healthcare? Infrastructure? Other social spending? Some form of direct economic spending? Etc etc. If reducing suffering is the key goal of the government then it surely falls on the government to spend it in the most efficient way possible. Is extending the discussed subsidies to cover every child the most efficient way of spending the money to lower suffering?

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Re: Homeless Mom Arrested After Leaving Kids in Car During Job Interview
« Reply #48 on: April 20, 2014, 01:39:25 AM »
You're right as far as you go, consortium, but I didn't get the impression that was Valthazar's argument.

Let's assume that the childcare gives a net cost to the state.  What is magic about the third (or whatever) child?  There is no marginal cost to a child, the third one costs as much to care for as the second.  And being as we're assuming childcare is a net cost for kids one and two, any arguments about efficiency go out of the window if we're prepared to pay for any of them.

Putting a cap on the number makes no sense, it's solely punitive.  If the argument was about an effective usage of resources then the answer would be either to support zero (because its a net drain) or as many as is wanted (because the benefits outweigh the costs).  With no increase in marginal costs for successive children, there's no "fiscal responsibility" argument for a cap.

So, yes.  I agree with you that money should be used effectively, but that wasn't what was being discussed.  The punitive aspect of val's suggested policy was all I was talking about.



Off topic:
Several of the gas mains in New York City, for example, are over 127 years old - and we recently had an explosion.  I also would like to see a drastic expansion of scholarship programs.

I realise that was just an example, but is that not New York State's problem (as opposed to the federal government)

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Re: Homeless Mom Arrested After Leaving Kids in Car During Job Interview
« Reply #49 on: April 20, 2014, 01:54:29 AM »
Actually, consortium is very much articulating my assertion.  If the United States were serious about offering subsidies for daycare, there would likely provide a dollar amount subsidy per adult based on earned income.  The adult would then be able to select from a wide variety of private daycare facilities, and choose a price point that worked for their needs (and number of kids).

It's the same way that subsidies are determined with the Affordable Care Act.  There are caps for the subsidies based on income as compared to the federal poverty line.

Off topic: I realise that was just an example, but is that not New York State's problem (as opposed to the federal government)

There's a state and federal budget for city infrastructure.  Especially for roads, declining federal budget allocation for city infrastructure have caused many more states to increase their investment in infrastructure, but it's not enough.