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Author Topic: Don't vote!  (Read 6889 times)

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Offline TheGlyphstone

Re: Don't vote!
« Reply #250 on: June 23, 2014, 01:02:33 PM »
GFT.

 I find it interesting some people here are willing to call for a revolution, but they aren't willing to try and work through the system because they think it's all rigged. Despite several recent events of voters actually getting what they want and the establishment getting kicked out (Eric Cantor), but nope. To them it's all rigged and everyone who tries to reform it from the inside is automatically tainted and corrupted by the system.

There was a very insightful quote I saw once - source unknown - that I think was paraphrased from another scholar (Oniya helped me track down what I suspect is the original), that went:
Quote
"The loudest calls for revolution come from those who have never experienced one."

Offline mj2002Topic starter

Re: Don't vote!
« Reply #251 on: June 23, 2014, 04:24:28 PM »
I find it interesting some people here are willing to call for a revolution, but they aren't willing to try and work through the system because they think it's all rigged. Despite several recent events of voters actually getting what they want and the establishment getting kicked out (Eric Cantor), but nope. To them it's all rigged and everyone who tries to reform it from the inside is automatically tainted and corrupted by the system.
As posted before, the system is not entirely dysfunctional as such. On some fields (social policy) there are in fact changes being made. However, when it comes to the core issues I've mentioned over and over, there's hardly any noteworthy changes (for good anyway) being made in the last 3-5 decades.

Your post is essentially a straw man attack. You should focus on presenting your own view rather than misrepresenting the position of others.

Offline Valerian

Re: Don't vote!
« Reply #252 on: June 23, 2014, 05:24:42 PM »
Your post is essentially a straw man attack. You should focus on presenting your own view rather than misrepresenting the position of others.
Where exactly do you feel she's misrepresenting your position?

Offline Zakharra

Re: Don't vote!
« Reply #253 on: June 23, 2014, 05:31:23 PM »
As posted before, the system is not entirely dysfunctional as such. On some fields (social policy) there are in fact changes being made. However, when it comes to the core issues I've mentioned over and over, there's hardly any noteworthy changes (for good anyway) being made in the last 3-5 decades.

Your post is essentially a straw man attack. You should focus on presenting your own view rather than misrepresenting the position of others.

  How is what I've said is a strawman attack or misrepresenting your position?  I didn't single you out, I specifically said some people here believe exactly what I said because some people posting in this thread have said exactly that. Look at what I said: 'I find it interesting some people here are willing to call for a revolution, but they aren't willing to try and work through the system because they think it's all rigged. Despite several recent events of voters actually getting what they want and the establishment getting kicked out (Eric Cantor), but nope. To them it's all rigged and everyone who tries to reform it from the inside is automatically tainted and corrupted by the system.'

 They believe the system is rigged and cannot be reformed from the inside because -they- believe it corrupts anyone that tries to reform it from the inside. Despite some evidence to the contrary. They like to believe it's not fixable and only a revolution is able to fix it. Then they tend to fail to give any specifics, preferring to keep everything vague and unsaid.  I never once singled you out, that you think I did is kind of odd. It makes me wonder if I hit a sore point or not.

Offline mj2002Topic starter

Re: Don't vote!
« Reply #254 on: June 24, 2014, 12:28:39 AM »
Where exactly do you feel she's misrepresenting your position?
Not my position specifically, but the overall notion of that post (and the next one posted above this one) keeps attempting to 'paraphrase' the position Zakharra disagrees with. This is done in a disingenuous way by bringing up the extremes and leaving out any nuance;

"I find it interesting some people here are willing to call for a revolution, but they aren't willing to try and work through the system because they think it's all rigged."

"To them it's all rigged and everyone who tries to reform it from the inside is automatically tainted and corrupted by the system"

"They believe the system is rigged and cannot be reformed from the inside because -they- believe it corrupts anyone that tries to reform it from the inside"

"They like to believe it's not fixable and only a revolution is able to fix it."

"Then they tend to fail to give any specifics, preferring to keep everything vague and unsaid."

These are just a few examples. Look, I don't mind arguing and debating with Zakharra (or anyone else) at all. I enjoy having my views challenged. However, there should be no need for people to try and 'paraphrase' the other side's arguments and then pretend that it is an accurate representation. There's people posting their opinions here and they can be replied to, no need for creating a straw man where you leave out any nuance.


Offline Oniya

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Re: Don't vote!
« Reply #255 on: June 24, 2014, 01:00:01 AM »
However these elections aren't fair game, they're rigged.The problem is, as I've explained several times now. Participating in the process means you perpetuate the status quo. I'm all for voting, if the process is fair. The process however, is not fair. It hasn't been fair and it won't be fair. It needs an overhaul and I don't think that's going to come by itself. It needs an outside influence to force change. Not participating in the charade is a start.

Offline Zakharra

Re: Don't vote!
« Reply #256 on: June 24, 2014, 10:03:19 AM »
Quote from: mj2002 on March 26, 2014, 12:40:34 PM

    However these elections aren't fair game, they're rigged.The problem is, as I've explained several times now. Participating in the process means you perpetuate the status quo. I'm all for voting, if the process is fair. The process however, is not fair. It hasn't been fair and it won't be fair. It needs an overhaul and I don't think that's going to come by itself. It needs an outside influence to force change. Not participating in the charade is a start.


 Good catch.

Offline Oniya

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Re: Don't vote!
« Reply #257 on: June 25, 2014, 01:13:01 AM »
Something that came to my attention earlier today, while I was researching information elsewhere.

Fifty years ago this summer, in 1964, three young men took part in a cause that they believed in.  They went down to Mississippi with the intention of getting people registered to vote.  People who had been actively discouraged from voting.  People who were harassed when they tried to go vote, who were given faulty information about when and where to vote. 

Those three young men were killed for their trouble.  Michael Schwerner, James Chaney, and Andrew Goodman were shot, and buried in an earthen dam.  They knew they were walking into the lion's den, but they did so anyways, and paid the ultimate price, because they believed what they were doing was the right thing to do:  Getting people the ability to contribute to and to confront the government.  Giving them the chance to start to make changes.

Changes got made.  The very next year, Congress passed the Voting Rights Act of 1965.  Candidates that reflected the interests of the people were elected.  The system was changed from the inside.

They had the courage and conviction to take action.  They didn't sit back and say 'what difference does one voice make?'  They didn't sit back and wait.



They did.

Offline KalebHyde

Re: Don't vote!
« Reply #258 on: June 25, 2014, 09:54:39 AM »
First of all, anyone who doesn't think they should vote for any reason, shouldn't.  Millions have given their lives for each individual to gain the right and privilege to vote.  If someone is not willing to take basic steps to fulfill that right, whether its by claiming gaining a 'valid' id is just too hard or they are attempting some pointless protest that will never be noticed by the corrupt they rail against.  If one is truly against government corruption, work for term limits so that career politicians no longer exist.  Texas from what I understand has a good idea in that their congress meets for a period of time every other year.  They get in, do their work, then have to go back home to their communities.  Apply that to D.C. along with term limits and you will do much to remove that isolation and insulation ALL politicians now enjoy. 

The system will never be perfect, but if you refuse to participate, the establishment wins.  Why do you think incumbents almost always win?  Everyone wants change if you look at the polls, but too many refuse to even vote for that change.  I have seen income inequality spoken of in this thread and I wonder what the solution to that would be.  I personally don't hate on Bill Gates or the Koch brothers any more than I would LaBron James or Oprah Winfrey.  There has never been a right to equal income, only equal opportunity, not happiness itself but the pursuit of it.  No system is ever going to offer income equality as any communist or socialist regime can attest.  The closest any system comes is likely the third world if you actually consider extreme poverty to be equality. 

The Tea Party is a good example of common people asking for common sense to be returned to the country, but even if you disagree with some of their ideas, they have fought hard to make a difference through voting along with other measures.  They fight for what they believe in and take on both established parties.  Libertarians as well are speaking out and slowly gaining success.  It has taken over 100 years for progressives from Teddy Roosevelt to Bush, from FDR to Obama, to bring this country down to where it now stands, so changing things for the better cannot happen over night, but you have to stay involved as giving up is truly not an effective option.

In the end, the establishment parties and the major media want everyone to become so frustrated that everyone just gives up and become the sheep to slaughter.  Getting people to stop voting is a step along that process.  Instead, I believe it is better to work for term limits, to shrink the size of federal government so that their corruption doesn't touch so much of life.  Bring your elections and issues down to far more localized settings so that single or a handful of votes can make a difference.