You are either not logged in or not registered with our community. Click here to register.
 
December 02, 2016, 02:23:35 PM

Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?

Login with username, password and session length

Click here if you are having problems.
Default Wide Screen Beige Lilac Rainbow Black & Blue October Send us your theme!

Hark!  The Herald!
Holiday Issue 2016

Wiki Blogs Dicebot

Author Topic: Don't vote!  (Read 6881 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline mj2002Topic starter

Re: Don't vote!
« Reply #225 on: June 15, 2014, 10:00:05 AM »
I think you missed this bit.

I replied to that.

Offline Zakharra

Re: Don't vote!
« Reply #226 on: June 15, 2014, 11:23:15 AM »
I replied to that.

 Not really All you've more or less said is not voting is a step that will lead to a revolution, without saying WHY it would. Most of those who  don't vote, don't care. They are apathetic, not conscientious objectors. As long as it doesn't affect them, they literally don't care. They accept the decisions made by the ones who do vote.

 You're also refusing to try and even participate in the system to try and change it from the inside because -you- don't feel it can be changed except by a revolution. You're just throwing up your hands and saying it's hopeless, so it's time for a REVOLUTION.  If enough people voted, the system -would- be changed, believe me. The politicians cannot survive if everyone, or even 90% of the voting population actually voted. A lot of them would be removed from office. As Eric Cantor's loss has shown, it's possible for voters to make a difference.  To just say it's not possible and walk away when there is evidence you're wrong seems kind of shallow. You're not even trying to make a difference.

Offline Blythe

Re: Don't vote!
« Reply #227 on: June 15, 2014, 11:34:42 AM »
As Eric Cantor's loss has shown, it's possible for voters to make a difference.

A little off-topic for me here, I know, but I had not heard about this? The name sounds familiar, but I can't quite place it. If you could direct me to a good source to read about this, I would appreciate it, as I'm curious about Cantor's loss!  :-)
« Last Edit: June 15, 2014, 11:36:23 AM by Blythe »

Offline GypsyRose

Re: Don't vote!
« Reply #228 on: June 15, 2014, 11:37:20 AM »
Depending on which political spin you want on the reasons for the loss, here are some choices:

NYT : http://www.nytimes.com/2014/06/11/us/politics/eric-cantor-loses-gop-primary.html

Washington Post: http://www.washingtonpost.com/business/economy/eric-cantors-historic-primary-loss-in-virginia-is-a-warning-about-runaway-gerrymandering/2014/06/11/0c30d05c-f1b0-11e3-9ebc-2ee6f81ed217_story.html

Politico:  http://www.politico.com/story/2014/06/2014-virginia-primary-eric-cantor-campaign-107815.html

OT:

I don't think 'not voting' has any kind of chance of inciting any kind of revolution.

The people who have the power aren't going to shrug their shoulders and walk away from their position of importance if only 10% (or .10%) of the people bother to vote.  They'll just concentrate on the 10% and silently thank those who aren't voting for not helping them to the curb if they bother to think of them at all.

Every person who doesn't vote isn't (IMO, of course) viewed as an advocate for revolution, but a staunch and valued supporter of the status quo and every in-power-politician's next-best wet dream.  :)





« Last Edit: June 15, 2014, 11:46:54 AM by Briar Rose »

Offline Blythe


Online Valerian

Re: Don't vote!
« Reply #230 on: June 15, 2014, 11:58:11 AM »
I replied to that.

Perhaps you could also reply to this?

Well, it shouldn't be, assuming you actually want any results from this discussion.  You're not going to encourage people to take the first step if no one (including you, apparently) has any clue what the second step is going to be.

We're all still very curious about that second step, I'm sure.

Online Dashenka

Re: Don't vote!
« Reply #231 on: June 15, 2014, 12:05:39 PM »
As Eric Cantor's loss has shown, it's possible for voters to make a difference.  To just say it's not possible and walk away when there is evidence you're wrong seems kind of shallow. You're not even trying to make a difference.

As has been proven, not only in the 'corrupt nations' but also in Florida a couple of years ago...

The people who cast the votes decide nothing. The people who count the votes, decide everything. :)

Online TheGlyphstone

Re: Don't vote!
« Reply #232 on: June 15, 2014, 12:41:08 PM »
Perhaps you could also reply to this?

We're all still very curious about that second step, I'm sure.


It's an Underwear Gnomes plan, remember? No one can remember what Step 2 is, but Step 3 is profitrevolution.

Offline mj2002Topic starter

Re: Don't vote!
« Reply #233 on: June 15, 2014, 01:05:24 PM »
We're all still very curious about that second step, I'm sure.
As I mentioned before, I feel that this is beyond the scope of this discussion. There is too much of an unknown factor when it comes to 'what comes next', because of a variety of reasons. Next steps would highly depend on the political climate at the time and the actual country in which an election boycott would happen (the world doesn't revolve around the USA after all). Follow up actions could range from protests and strikes to the formations of political movements centered around these issues that have actual traction. It highly depends on what the situation is at the time. There are so many unknown factors that I don't see any point in making any predictions or presenting 'plans' on how to proceed with this, before this is anything other than just a concept being discussed on an online forum. You can be curious all you like, but there isn't an answer for every question out there. Before you ask a question, you should think about the possible answers yourself first.

Not really All you've more or less said is not voting is a step that will lead to a revolution, without saying WHY it would. Most of those who  don't vote, don't care. They are apathetic, not conscientious objectors. As long as it doesn't affect them, they literally don't care. They accept the decisions made by the ones who do vote.
I did reply to the part you quoted. The bold part specifically pointed to election turnout being into the single digits, which I've shown to be an incorrect statement when it comes to presidential elections (which I consider to be the ones relevant to this discussion). Perhaps you've skipped that reply, perhaps you should take another look at the previous page.

You're also refusing to try and even participate in the system to try and change it from the inside because -you- don't feel it can be changed except by a revolution. You're just throwing up your hands and saying it's hopeless, so it's time for a REVOLUTION.  If enough people voted, the system -would- be changed, believe me. The politicians cannot survive if everyone, or even 90% of the voting population actually voted. A lot of them would be removed from office. As Eric Cantor's loss has shown, it's possible for voters to make a difference.  To just say it's not possible and walk away when there is evidence you're wrong seems kind of shallow. You're not even trying to make a difference.
I'm taking a look at this issue from an historical perspective. I explained this before, several times in this topic, but I'll repeat; In the last couple of decades (perhaps as far back as the 50s) there have been no serious (positive) changes in policy with regards to economic inequality, corruption in politics and climate change. If you can give me any reason to believe why this would change in the near future, please feel free to do so. I haven't read any solid arguments against this point.

The examples you're bringing up are irrelevant because they concern social politics. Eric Cantor wasn't voted out in the primaries because he was against fixing economic inequality, because he was against doing something about climate change or because he was not tough enough on political corruption.

Finally, you can make my position seem all weird, uneducated, shallow, lazy, etc, but I'd request that you remain civil in your responses and just debate the topic on its merits and arguments, not because you feel like calling people out because their opinions are different from yours.

Online Valerian

Re: Don't vote!
« Reply #234 on: June 15, 2014, 01:39:51 PM »
As I mentioned before, I feel that this is beyond the scope of this discussion. There is too much of an unknown factor when it comes to 'what comes next', because of a variety of reasons. Next steps would highly depend on the political climate at the time and the actual country in which an election boycott would happen (the world doesn't revolve around the USA after all). Follow up actions could range from protests and strikes to the formations of political movements centered around these issues that have actual traction. It highly depends on what the situation is at the time. There are so many unknown factors that I don't see any point in making any predictions or presenting 'plans' on how to proceed with this, before this is anything other than just a concept being discussed on an online forum. You can be curious all you like, but there isn't an answer for every question out there. Before you ask a question, you should think about the possible answers yourself first.
I dd consider possible answers, but this is your plan, so my guessing at your reply didn't seem like the best way to go about things.

My original point still stands, however.  It's extremely difficult to get anyone to follow any sort of plan -- or even seriously consider doing so -- when there's such a huge uncertainty involved.  Why should anyone go along with your ideas based on the vague possibility that not voting might lead to some sort of undefined opportunity for a change that might be for the better, but equally could be for the worse?

Offline mj2002Topic starter

Re: Don't vote!
« Reply #235 on: June 15, 2014, 01:44:38 PM »
I dd consider possible answers, but this is your plan, so my guessing at your reply didn't seem like the best way to go about things.

My original point still stands, however.  It's extremely difficult to get anyone to follow any sort of plan -- or even seriously consider doing so -- when there's such a huge uncertainty involved.  Why should anyone go along with your ideas based on the vague possibility that not voting might lead to some sort of undefined opportunity for a change that might be for the better, but equally could be for the worse?
People don't have to go along with my ideas if they would rather not to. I am presenting my position and I feel I've been adequately defending it. Yes, it is difficult to follow any sort of plan with a great deal of uncertainty, which is why the 'plan' needs more thought. However, I stand by my point that participating in the current system makes one complicit in the injustices that are being carried out.

Offline Zakharra

Re: Don't vote!
« Reply #236 on: June 15, 2014, 01:46:03 PM »
I did reply to the part you quoted. The bold part specifically pointed to election turnout being into the single digits, which I've shown to be an incorrect statement when it comes to presidential elections (which I consider to be the ones relevant to this discussion). Perhaps you've skipped that reply, perhaps you should take another look at the previous page.

 Not really. There have been elections decided in the single digit range. I went back and looked at what was quoted and nowhere did it specify Presidential elections. Oniya said elections, which means local, state and federal and a hell of a lot of those are being decided by narrow margins. It seems like you decided it meant only Presidential elections and ignored any other possible elections because it suits your purpose.



 
Quote
I'm taking a look at this issue from an historical perspective. I explained this before, several times in this topic, but I'll repeat; In the last couple of decades (perhaps as far back as the 50s) there have been no serious (positive) changes in policy with regards to economic inequality, corruption in politics and climate change. If you can give me any reason to believe why this would change in the near future, please feel free to do so. I haven't read any solid arguments against this point.

The examples you're bringing up are irrelevant because they concern social politics. Eric Cantor wasn't voted out in the primaries because he was against fixing economic inequality, because he was against doing something about climate change or because he was not tough enough on political corruption.

Finally, you can make my position seem all weird, uneducated, shallow, lazy, etc, but I'd request that you remain civil in your responses and just debate the topic on its merits and arguments, not because you feel like calling people out because their opinions are different from yours.

  So what? Politics is politics. It doesn't matter what kind of politics it is when it involved politicians.  Eric Cantor is out. He and the establishment thought his seat was safe and the guy he was running against a nobody. Guess what? they were wrong. Despite being outspent by millions, the 'nobody' won and now Mr. Cantor is out of a job because the people decided they wanted someone new. It is possible, it is doable IF people get involved. The 'nobody' Mr. Brat (I believe. If so, where the hell do they come up with these names?) ran on illegal immigration, I think. That's a topic a lot of people want dealt with and not just a paper fix that fixes nothing, but actually takes steps to -fix- the bloody problem.  So it is possible to change the leadership. If enough new people were voted in, there would be changes. It's getting a lot harder for politicians to pull crap now because of the internet and phone cameras.


 As for your last paragraph, girl, I haven't been attacking you. I was pointing out what you said. If you're willing to say and claim something, you'd better be willing to back them up and not try to call someone uncivil just because they point out your position in a way you don't necessarily like. If you think what I said was offensive, then you have an unfortunately thin skin. And I and others have called you and your position 'weird, uneducated, shallow, lazy, etc, ' because honestly, that is how you come across as. You're advocating not even trying to reform the system from within because you yourself don;t think it will ever work. Despite proof to the contrary at the local and state levels that change is possible.  You start at the lower levels and work up.

Online Valerian

Re: Don't vote!
« Reply #237 on: June 15, 2014, 01:53:45 PM »
People don't have to go along with my ideas if they would rather not to. I am presenting my position and I feel I've been adequately defending it. Yes, it is difficult to follow any sort of plan with a great deal of uncertainty, which is why the 'plan' needs more thought. However, I stand by my point that participating in the current system makes one complicit in the injustices that are being carried out.
So you believe that participating in the current system with the intent to reform the system is still a bad thing?  Because that doesn't seem to follow logically.

Offline mj2002Topic starter

Re: Don't vote!
« Reply #238 on: June 15, 2014, 02:13:34 PM »
So you believe that participating in the current system with the intent to reform the system is still a bad thing?  Because that doesn't seem to follow logically.
If one accepts the premise that the system is rigged, it does logically follow.

Offline TaintedAndDelish

Re: Don't vote!
« Reply #239 on: June 16, 2014, 05:39:59 AM »

How is the system rigged? What exactly do you mean by rigged? I ask because I'm wondering if there may be some  fallacy in this argument. I'll explain:

If the system is "rigged" or "unfair" because there are rich people supporting the major candidates, then I think that argument should be debated.

If its "rigged" because it looks like its the wealthy folks giving the poor folks a choice between shill A and shill B, then I think that argument is flawed too. Just because a candidate shares some of their wealthy supporter's goals does not make them corrupt or invalid.
 
Also in each case above it should be noted that its erroneous to lump the population into two camps - wealthy and poor, or 99% and 1%.



Offline mj2002Topic starter

Re: Don't vote!
« Reply #240 on: June 16, 2014, 08:48:02 AM »
How is the system rigged? What exactly do you mean by rigged? I ask because I'm wondering if there may be some  fallacy in this argument. I'll explain:

If the system is "rigged" or "unfair" because there are rich people supporting the major candidates, then I think that argument should be debated.

If its "rigged" because it looks like its the wealthy folks giving the poor folks a choice between shill A and shill B, then I think that argument is flawed too. Just because a candidate shares some of their wealthy supporter's goals does not make them corrupt or invalid.
 
Also in each case above it should be noted that its erroneous to lump the population into two camps - wealthy and poor, or 99% and 1%.




I think you're underestimating the systemic issues. This may offer an insight into the situation;

http://www.princeton.edu/~mgilens/Gilens%20homepage%20materials/Gilens%20and%20Page/Gilens%20and%20Page%202014-Testing%20Theories%203-7-14.pdf


Offline Senti

  • Queen of Mooey Land
  • Dame
  • Addict
  • *
  • Join Date: Sep 2009
  • Location: With the Mushroom People. Along with drinking tea with Loves whilst looking innocent, as well as dancing in the trees with Kendra...oh and digging holes in the garden and cleaning knives...: Goodness i am busy :))
  • Gender: Female
  • My Role Play Preferences
  • View My Rolls
  • Referrals: 0
Re: Don't vote!
« Reply #241 on: June 16, 2014, 08:57:56 AM »
It has likely been said before, but women died for me to have the privilege and freedom to vote. (look for Horrible Histories Suffragettes song) They are fierce girls.

Joking aside with the horrible histories I always make sure I vote, my husband though he hates the system suggests he cant complain if he does not. He votes but adds his own box….None of the above. Yes it is classed as a defaced paper however it still has to be counted and more people are doing this to show their thoughts and make a quiet protest against the system and those in power.

Well if its been said before apologies it is just another personal opinion.

Offline TaintedAndDelish

Re: Don't vote!
« Reply #242 on: June 17, 2014, 05:28:10 AM »
I think you're underestimating the systemic issues. This may offer an insight into the situation;

http://www.princeton.edu/~mgilens/Gilens%20homepage%20materials/Gilens%20and%20Page/Gilens%20and%20Page%202014-Testing%20Theories%203-7-14.pdf

MJ, you are saying that the system is rigged, but then when asked why, you offer someone else's 42 page collection of theories and say "This MAY give some insight?"

If you can't state how it is that the system is rigged, then maybe you should not be making that claim. It's hard to debate things that are not stated clearly.

Offline mj2002Topic starter

Re: Don't vote!
« Reply #243 on: June 17, 2014, 08:18:34 AM »
MJ, you are saying that the system is rigged, but then when asked why, you offer someone else's 42 page collection of theories and say "This MAY give some insight?"

If you can't state how it is that the system is rigged, then maybe you should not be making that claim. It's hard to debate things that are not stated clearly.

It's a piece of research that has been widely reported on. If you bothered to take a look at it, you can see that it has an abstract, which explains the conclusions of the research in 1-2 paragraphs. These statements are not unclear, I've already explained the reasons why the system is rigged earlier in this thread. I'm pretty sure you read those posts already, so why are you asking this question again? The answer isn't going to be very different, except the link I gave you provides supporting evidence based on research from respected universities.
« Last Edit: June 17, 2014, 08:19:49 AM by mj2002 »

Offline Jusey1

Re: Don't vote!
« Reply #244 on: June 23, 2014, 10:41:06 AM »
For the US (since I live in the US)... Voting does really nothing since the Government is for the Government now-a-days... If anybody good who comes up and actually wins normally ends up becoming corrupt or being assassinated... Though no one big hadn't been assassinated in awhile so corruption is winning without having to kill (not a good sign).

Oh wait. Corruption in the US Government did killed a lot for sure back in 2001 plus I honestly believe all those school shootings we had before the last election were "helped on", if you ask me... But those are for another topic.

As for voting... Like I said, it isn't working well... So I'm just waiting for a revolution.

Online Oniya

  • StoreHouse of Useless Trivia
  • Oracle
  • Carnite
  • *
  • Join Date: Sep 2008
  • Location: Just bouncing through. Hi! City of Roses, Pennsylvania
  • Gender: Female
  • One bad Motokifuka. Also cute and FLUFFY!
  • My Role Play Preferences
  • View My Rolls
  • Referrals: 3
Re: Don't vote!
« Reply #245 on: June 23, 2014, 11:14:45 AM »
'Waiting' for a revolution isn't going to facilitate one.

Offline Callie Del Noire

Re: Don't vote!
« Reply #246 on: June 23, 2014, 11:34:47 AM »
So you believe that participating in the current system with the intent to reform the system is still a bad thing?  Because that doesn't seem to follow logically.

It was what the folks did during the 50s-60s for the Civil Rights movement. I fail to see how playing within the system is a bad thing either.

For the US (since I live in the US)... Voting does really nothing since the Government is for the Government now-a-days... If anybody good who comes up and actually wins normally ends up becoming corrupt or being assassinated... Though no one big hadn't been assassinated in awhile so corruption is winning without having to kill (not a good sign).

Oh wait. Corruption in the US Government did killed a lot for sure back in 2001 plus I honestly believe all those school shootings we had before the last election were "helped on", if you ask me... But those are for another topic.

As for voting... Like I said, it isn't working well... So I'm just waiting for a revolution.

If anything I'd say a good (if reversed) example of this would be the failure of Eric Cantor, speaker of the house, to hold onto his seat in the primaries. Odds are several other GOP leaders in the house and senate will have to fight to keep their seat. The fact that the Tea Party is using the system to sculpt the GOP to their liking shows that working 'in the system' can work. 

If the fringe elements..and the Tea party guys who get nominated ARE fringe.. can do it.. why can't the mainstream? I'll tell you why. Voter Apathy. Small groups who are organized, directed and willing to look into the way the system works can have an effect. A more moderate group could have the same effect but that is largely defeated by a 'not my problem' outlook.

Offline Zakharra

Re: Don't vote!
« Reply #247 on: June 23, 2014, 11:39:46 AM »
'Waiting' for a revolution isn't going to facilitate one.

 GFT.

 I find it interesting some people here are willing to call for a revolution, but they aren't willing to try and work through the system because they think it's all rigged. Despite several recent events of voters actually getting what they want and the establishment getting kicked out (Eric Cantor), but nope. To them it's all rigged and everyone who tries to reform it from the inside is automatically tainted and corrupted by the system.

Offline Callie Del Noire

Re: Don't vote!
« Reply #248 on: June 23, 2014, 11:55:34 AM »
GFT.

 I find it interesting some people here are willing to call for a revolution, but they aren't willing to try and work through the system because they think it's all rigged. Despite several recent events of voters actually getting what they want and the establishment getting kicked out (Eric Cantor), but nope. To them it's all rigged and everyone who tries to reform it from the inside is automatically tainted and corrupted by the system.


There is a strong outlook among both democrats and more more moderate republicans/independents who are hoping that this 'BRAT Pack' of new extreme and confrontational conservative republicans will backfire on the Tea Party. Typically the way things go is a candidate goes more extreme during the primaries and more moderate during a general election. This MO only varies when the candidate has a clear and obvious 'lock' on his region. I know several districts like that back home. (when you have 70%+ party density in a region..why worry?)

This is one of the MANY things that bit Mitt Romney in the ass this last Presidential election. He didnt' swing back to center during the general election. If he HAD several regions might have not been as big a gap as it was.

Offline Jusey1

Re: Don't vote!
« Reply #249 on: June 23, 2014, 12:37:36 PM »
'Waiting' for a revolution isn't going to facilitate one.

I'm peaceful and content with how things are currently. I never said I wanted a revolution, just am waiting for one as I see it happening within my natural lifetime.