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Author Topic: Feminism, Mens Rights and Other Nonsense.  (Read 3784 times)

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Offline Avis habilis

Re: Feminism, Mens Rights and Other Nonsense.
« Reply #25 on: March 20, 2014, 11:18:13 AM »
Kane listed some statistics, and Avis dismissed them.

No. I pointed out that feminist groups are the only ones undertaking any action to remedy the social ills he's complaining about.

Offline meikle

Re: Feminism, Mens Rights and Other Nonsense.
« Reply #26 on: March 20, 2014, 11:20:30 AM »
Quote
However, the -only- mens issues- they do deal with, have to do with the -gender roles- so far as I've ever read anywhere. If you can show me anything, just one thing that proves me wrong here, I'd be glad to read it.

Codified & enforced genderroles are kind of a root-cause thing in pretty much any significant disparity in privilege & rights & protections between men and women, so yeah, pretty much everything comes back to it.

Offline Sabby

Re: Feminism, Mens Rights and Other Nonsense.
« Reply #27 on: March 20, 2014, 11:26:52 AM »
Wait, nevermind, I see my error here. I retract my statements. Apologies.

Offline Lux12

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Re: Feminism, Mens Rights and Other Nonsense.
« Reply #28 on: March 20, 2014, 11:29:16 AM »
Well  the truth is men aren't being oppressed by anyone other than other men. Patriarchy hurts men too in some regards because it means that patriarchy not only tries to force women into fitting one strict and false definition but also men. However the problems men faced are eclipsed by those of women. Men despite the existence of laws and changing social values still make more than women for doing the same work. Women are slut shamed where men are praised by society for sexual prowess. The bulk of domestic violence, especially the most severe forms are leveled against women. Society continues to treat being feminine as equivalent to being less valuable. Do I need to mention these legal clauses that people are trying to use to control women's bodies? The standards of beauty imposed on women are more strict than those imposed on men and even the brightest and most talented women run the risk of being more valued for sex appeal than anything else. Women are still actively discouraged from pursuing careers that society deems "masculine". In countries around the world, little girls are killed because they were not born as sons. Women's spirituality is still heavily under emphasized outside of many neo-pagan traditions and sects. Even some places where both the Mother and the Father are still honored women may still face oppression in their spiritual lives. Similarly, in research of social varieties, male subjects are usually focused on instead of female and thus data becomes flawed.

I can keep going on with the list of problems in our society. However it should be clear by now that the need for an individual masculinist movement is pretty much null. The way I see it men need only fear oppression from other men and feminism is a movement working to eradicate patriarchy which will further liberate everyone.

Offline KaneTopic starter

Re: Feminism, Mens Rights and Other Nonsense.
« Reply #29 on: March 20, 2014, 11:30:31 AM »
It was an MRA thread in disguise all along!  Who could have predicted?

You are making a great point there, thank you for the ad-hominem attack, it really opened my eyes.

Which feminist groups are trying to stamp out & MRAs express no interest in doing anything about. It's just fodder for cries of "see, we have it exactly as tough as you do so STFU women".
This list was compiled to point out there are issues unique to men. Nothing else. Not to advocate MRA. I do not advocate MRA. Do I have to speak in one syllable sentences here?

I know of at least three Men's shelters in my town.
There are men's shelters. My point wasn't that. My point was that there are issues unique to men. Quote mining is not really helpful to any debate.

For anyone actually interested in what anyone's actually doing about the issues Kane raised, check out part four of this (long but useful) essay: http://www.autostraddle.com/helpful-advice-for-talking-to-men-who-think-misandry-is-a-thing-170632/
Would be a great read if I thought 'misandry' was a thing. Nowhere did I ever say so.

My only suggestion to the Men's Rights Advocates in this thread is to avoid falling into the trap of thinking that all women are feminists.  They may not be as prominent, but many women actually agree with what you are saying.

For example, Alyssa Condrey, Director of the Network of Enlightened Women says that, ďA lot of times, more radical feminism has a victim mentality.  They want to totally isolate and separate themselves from men. We donít agree with that.Ē (Source)

Respect the views of feminists, while at the same time, we should feel free to hold our own views.

I'm not a MRA. I will keep repeating this as long as I have to. I believe there are more women's issues than mens issues. I also know, for a fact, that the psychological implication of calling Equality "Feminism" Is that men's problems get devaluated. No matter how good of a job feminists are doing.

Sources: (No MRA sites!)

Gender in education: http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2013/02/21/new-book-explains-why-women-outpace-men-education

Prison terms: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/09/11/men-women-prison-sentence-length-gender-gap_n_1874742.html

Homelessness: http://www.crisis.org.uk/pages/homeless-diff-groups.html

Homicide, violence http://www.victimsweek.gc.ca/res/r512.html

Boys more likely to be physically abused. http://www.washington.edu/news/2000/04/13/older-children-boys-more-likely-to-be-physically-abused-in-families-with-history-of-wife-abuse-study-indicates/

Gender ratio on child sexual abuse (boys 48%, girls 52%) http://www.onhealth.com/child_abuse/page2.htm

Men less valuable in justice system: http://www.nber.org/digest/aug00/w7676.html

Health spending: http://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/health/men-die-earlier-but-womens-health-gets-four-times-more-funding/story-fneuzlbd-1226794504245 (You aren't telling me that pregnancy alone explains 'four times' the spending?)

Again, there are more women's issues than men's issues, everyone knows this. I only brought these up since someone said there are no unique problems to men.


ALSO, I DO NOT ADVOCATE MRA!
« Last Edit: March 20, 2014, 11:34:44 AM by Kane »

Offline Avis habilis

Re: Feminism, Mens Rights and Other Nonsense.
« Reply #30 on: March 20, 2014, 11:31:36 AM »
Wait, nevermind, I see my error here. I retract my statements. Apologies.

Hey, thanks man! I salute your willingness to say so.

Offline Sabby

Re: Feminism, Mens Rights and Other Nonsense.
« Reply #31 on: March 20, 2014, 11:32:45 AM »
I edited my original post to clarify, I hope that helps to clear things up. I am very confused as to how I goofed this.

Offline meikle

Re: Feminism, Mens Rights and Other Nonsense.
« Reply #32 on: March 20, 2014, 11:33:10 AM »
Quote
You are making a great point there, thank you for the ad-hominem attack, it really opened my eyes.

It has to be an argument for it to be fallacious!

Do you consider it an attack to be called an MRA?  I guess I would too.

Offline Ephiral

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Re: Feminism, Mens Rights and Other Nonsense.
« Reply #33 on: March 20, 2014, 11:36:50 AM »
Invalid justification, just because majority of people are douchebags, that desn't mean you can just dismiss everything on that notion. No, it's not understandable. You can't even begin a debate without any hate-mongering intended without getting branded as a misogynist. I don't even advocate men's rights movement. I think it goes in the ridiculous bin most of the time, yet just saying it should be equalism, rather than feminism gets me branded as misogynist every time I open my mouth.
"Is feminism valid?" is a question that comes from MRAs and their sympathisers an overwhelming majority of the time. It's not reason to dismiss someone out of hand - I engaged, didn't I? - but it's reason to be highly skeptical and more than a little wary.

You are doing exactly what people do to Feminism. "Whooooaaaa There! Feminists are firebreathing monsters that want to cut your balls off!" Type of a thing. Just because these guys are the most audible of the mens rights movement, doesn't make the movement any more horrendous than feminism. It is just like feminism, just concentrated on different side of the coin. Mens rights movement is also concerned with women's rights, funny enough. Most men's rights supporters I ever met were quite reasonable. Of course you run into the misogynist pricks time and again, but branding the whole movement on that basis is just as bad as branding feminism on that basis. Even the reasonable members of both groups brand each other the worst possible thing, and it is utterly ridiculous.
So if the mainstream MRA movement is so utterly reasonable and non-poisonous, you have that single, solitary example I was looking for earlier, right? I've gone looking. I've been unable to find it. I would love to be forced to reevaluate here.

Globally, there are certainly more women's issues than men's issues, I never claimed anything else, do not straw-man me and think I won't catch onto it, please. This doesn't remove the fact that calling it feminism devaluates the issues men have, whether they are less numerous or not. This is simply a psychological thing. It bases on no logic, but believe me, psychology plays a great part in these issues.
I never accused you of saying anything. I have said what tends to come from people who call themselves egalitarians. Please don't accuse me of things I didn't do and then of straw-manning in the same breath. Feminism doesn't devalue men's issues - it is, a huge chunk of the time, the only social-justice movement actually doing anything about them.

Yes, yes there is. And I applaud feminists for that. However, the -only- mens issues- they do deal with, have to do with the -gender roles- so far as I've ever read anywhere. If you can show me anything, just one thing that proves me wrong here, I'd be glad to read it. Other than that, did I ever say that MRA is somehow better than Feminism, because you are speaking like I just did? MRA might well be worse than feminism, but it doesn't change the point that I believe both of them are nonsense as much as each other.
All of the issues you have cited so far, every single one, has societal expectations and gender roles as a root cause. You really think the symptom is more worthy of treatment than the disease? As to the rest, you didn't paint MRAs as superior; you drew a false equivalence. One is a sea of toxicity that accomplishes nothing but poisoning the well, the other actually does shit.

Recognized MRA site? I like to use the quote. "Never have so many come together and accomplished so little" When speaking of MRA. There aren't any recognized MRA sites, MRA is as organized as a herd of headless chickens.
Tell that to A Voice For Men sometime.

So you linked me to one article that made no mention to the fact that boys perform worse than girls in schools, and one that claims it's all a myth. How does this exactly disprove my point? Unless you can actually point out where does it say in either of the texts that there is an issue here with boys performing worse.
Academic research is more credible than your uncited claim. When the research points to your claim being inaccurate, that's... well, that's what "disprove" means. The other article: If you truly believe that there is a gender gap between boys and girls, and that boys are on the underperforming side of it, then how exactly is a paper that studies and seeks to eliminate gender gaps not relevant? Either boys are not underperforming, or this article addresses the issue of boys underperforming; either way, your claim is addressed. As is your claim that feminism stands in opposition to equality.

Lack of information would have nothing to do with being biased. Not that I have a lack of information, but either way. Can you tell me what is exactly my bias here? Because I fail to see your point. The fact that I see Feminism and MRA equally nonsensical? I'm sorry, but I'm not biased to either direction. Or is it biased to think that everyone should have equality, and equality shouldn't be labeled under a gender specific term. What is this perceived bias towards exactly?
Lack of information makes it rather difficult to eliminate bias, since the alternative to bias is deciding on evidence. The rest is a false dichotomy; your bias is clearly toward the inherent superiority of your own position, facts be damned.

Offline KaneTopic starter

Re: Feminism, Mens Rights and Other Nonsense.
« Reply #34 on: March 20, 2014, 11:36:57 AM »
It has to be an argument for it to be fallacious!

Do you consider it an attack to be called an MRA?  I guess I would too.

I consider it an attack to be called MRA when I've repeatedly said I am not. I would also consider it an attack to be called Feminist when I am not. (I'm sure if we found an MRA member angry enough around here, they could come and tell me that too.) (I suppose people can define what I advocate as feminism, but that's not how I want it to be called.)

Anyway, you are right, that was just plain old name calling on your part. I stand corrected.
« Last Edit: March 20, 2014, 12:24:11 PM by Kane »

Offline Kythia

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Re: Feminism, Mens Rights and Other Nonsense.
« Reply #35 on: March 20, 2014, 11:38:06 AM »
I'm not a MRA. I will keep repeating this as long as I have to. I believe there are more women's issues than mens issues. I also know, for a fact, that the psychological implication of calling Equality "Feminism" Is that men's problems get devaluated. No matter how good of a job feminists are doing.

Once again, no one is calling equality "feminism".  People are calling feminism "feminism" and equality "equality". 

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Re: Feminism, Mens Rights and Other Nonsense.
« Reply #36 on: March 20, 2014, 11:39:53 AM »
Thanks for the sources. Interesting you had to hop across several continents to gather them - I don't think they can all be applied to a single country so the idea that they are all afflicting one culture doesn't quite hold.

Offline KaneTopic starter

Re: Feminism, Mens Rights and Other Nonsense.
« Reply #37 on: March 20, 2014, 12:05:37 PM »
So if the mainstream MRA movement is so utterly reasonable and non-poisonous, you have that single, solitary example I was looking for earlier, right? I've gone looking. I've been unable to find it. I would love to be forced to reevaluate here.
Frankly, I've done very little research on MRA. It doesn't interest me. I have spoken to some of its advocates, all I'm saying those people weren't being poisonous, in fact they were saying largely what I was saying, to which I responded that whatever they are trying to achieve will not be achieved any better under the banner of MRA, than it would under the banner of feminism. I never said their sites are not poisonous, I was speaking from personal experience.

Quote
I never accused you of saying anything. I have said what tends to come from people who call themselves egalitarians. Please don't accuse me of things I didn't do and then of straw-manning in the same breath. Feminism doesn't devalue men's issues - it is, a huge chunk of the time, the only social-justice movement actually doing anything about them.
Again, it doesn't matter whether feminism devaluates men's issues or not in its philosophy, when it does so in its name. I don't get it how this basic psychological message fails to go unnoticed constantly. It's like saying "Fatfree diet, but actually we advocate a diet that's balanced in its energy consumption." Even if it was true, that name would still have people think "Well, that's crazy!"

Quote
All of the issues you have cited so far, every single one, has societal expectations and gender roles as a root cause. You really think the symptom is more worthy of treatment than the disease? As to the rest, you didn't paint MRAs as superior; you drew a false equivalence. One is a sea of toxicity that accomplishes nothing but poisoning the well, the other actually does shit.
How should MRA ever achieve anything, the people who are sensible, are afraid to organize in fear of being branded as misogynist pricks for even mentioning their point of view. The people who do organize, are misogynistic pricks who don't care about being branded as such.

Quote
Tell that to A Voice For Men sometime.
I would compare that to Jezebel. Do you think Jezebel speaks for Feminism very well?

Quote
Academic research is more credible than your uncited claim. When the research points to your claim being inaccurate, that's... well, that's what "disprove" means. The other article: If you truly believe that there is a gender gap between boys and girls, and that boys are on the underperforming side of it, then how exactly is a paper that studies and seeks to eliminate gender gaps not relevant? Either boys are not underperforming, or this article addresses the issue of boys underperforming; either way, your claim is addressed. As is your claim that feminism stands in opposition to equality.
I provide sources in my last post. Have you ever heard of a biased study? I mean, when a person of a certain movement makes a study regarding problems that don't really suit the ethos of their movement? And finds out all the problems that were supposed to be there, according to a multitude of studies, suddenly aren't there. That's called biased. It doesn't address any points.

http://fabiusmaximus.com/2009/07/07/women/
http://www.statcan.gc.ca/pub/89-503-x/2010001/article/11542-eng.htm
http://blogs.wsj.com/economics/2010/01/29/women-more-likely-than-men-to-graduate-college-at-22/

Just because you have sources doesn't mean they are infallible.

I also did not claim feminism stands as an opposition to equality. Though a lot of the time, certain strands of it do. Just riddle me this: There is an extreme fringe of feminism, the fire breathing dragons fringe. It is not a big one, and it does not represent feminism as it is, but it is there, and it is vocal.

Now imagine an extreme fringe of equalism. What do they want? More equality for everyone? I mean, you can't twist that to your own meanings, equality is just that, equality. Sure you can try to twist the agenda, but at least we're rid of the psychological implication of the name.


Quote
Lack of information makes it rather difficult to eliminate bias, since the alternative to bias is deciding on evidence. The rest is a false dichotomy; your bias is clearly toward the inherent superiority of your own position, facts be damned.

I am certain that the position of equality for equality's sake is superior to any other position that wants to drive equality, when the goal is to drive onwards equality. Yes. How could it not be? Besides, I've provided sources for whatever I've said, so no, facts aren't to be damned.

Thanks for the sources. Interesting you had to hop across several continents to gather them - I don't think they can all be applied to a single country so the idea that they are all afflicting one culture doesn't quite hold.
They are all applied to western countries, in western culture. There isn't much difference. I could do more researching to get you the sources you want, but I'm sure someone would say. "That study was done in Chicago, Chicago sucks anyway."

Once again, no one is calling equality "feminism".  People are calling feminism "feminism" and equality "equality". 
So what is feminism then? If it's not to drive onwards equality, then what is its purpose? As I understand, most moderate feminists would describe it as a pursuit for equality.

Either way, my biggest gripe with feminism is sill the fact that if you don't identify as feminist, you are a misogynist prick. If you even question it, question anything that is said in the name of feminism, you are a misogynist prick. Unless you are a woman, you are an idiot who can't stand up for themselves. This is what you'll face any time you even mention your view point in public, guaranteed.
« Last Edit: March 20, 2014, 12:27:47 PM by Kane »

Offline Deamonbane

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Re: Feminism, Mens Rights and Other Nonsense.
« Reply #38 on: March 20, 2014, 12:25:43 PM »
It's a well known fact that if you go so far as to 'Choose sides' it's very clear that equality is very far from your mind. I will grant you that there are pigs of men that will see women as nothing more than how their kitchens remain clean, how their food is put on their tables and somewhere to put their penises in when they are horny. On the other side of he spectrum, there are men that work hard at menial jobs that they will never be happy at to make sure that wives and children are well cared for. When feminists speak of equality in the work place they are very happy to point out the positions of CEOs and high-paying positions that have fewer women there, but they fail to mention the small menial, hard jobs like taxi-driving, trash collecting, ditch digging, grave-digging etc that women won't touch because they aren't well paying enough, and might just be below them.

The fact that you pick a side means that equality is not what you have in mind. As much as women like to think it, they aren't the same as men. Men and women are different, and there are pros and cons to both genders. It doesn't make one side stronger or weaker than the other, it just makes them different.

Offline Kythia

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Re: Feminism, Mens Rights and Other Nonsense.
« Reply #39 on: March 20, 2014, 12:27:22 PM »

So what is feminism then? If it's not to drive onwards equality, then what is its purpose? As I understand, most moderate feminists would describe it as a pursuit for equality.

I don't believe you honestly can't see the difference between something being a pursuit for equality and being equality itself.

Offline KaneTopic starter

Re: Feminism, Mens Rights and Other Nonsense.
« Reply #40 on: March 20, 2014, 12:30:09 PM »
I don't believe you honestly can't see the difference between something being a pursuit for equality and being equality itself.

Semantics.

And I might disagree with Deamonbane to some degree, but he does make a good point.

The fact you have to pick up a side. The fact you can't just speak about equality for all, but have to name it feminism. The fact this name feminism is so sacred, so untouchable, unquestionable even. That fact alone says something, does it not?

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Re: Feminism, Mens Rights and Other Nonsense.
« Reply #41 on: March 20, 2014, 12:32:50 PM »
When feminists speak of equality in the work place they are very happy to point out the positions of CEOs and high-paying positions that have fewer women there, but they fail to mention the small menial, hard jobs like taxi-driving, trash collecting, ditch digging, grave-digging etc that women won't touch because they aren't well paying enough, and might just be below them.

This isn't something specific to women. There are men and women who feel that a job is "beneath" them because of the pay. I can't count the number of young men and women who turn up their noses at menial labor jobs because they feel it is somehow "beneath" them. There are also plenty of jobs most men won't touch with a ten foot pole for the same reasons (and even more reasons than just money... reason's like it's a "womans" job) like maids, nannies, etc.

This isn't a gender issue. It's an entitlement issue.

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Re: Feminism, Mens Rights and Other Nonsense.
« Reply #42 on: March 20, 2014, 12:34:30 PM »
Semantics.

And I might disagree with Deamonbane to some degree, but he does make a good point.

The fact you have to pick up a side. The fact you can't just speak about equality for all, but have to name it feminism. The fact this name feminism is so sacred, so untouchable, unquestionable even. That fact alone says something, does it not?

No. 

I'm at a loss to know what you think it does, to be honest. 

Do you believe the US NAACP is opposed to racism or just racism as it affects "Coloured People".  Do you believe that Child Welfare organisations think that adults can go fuck themselves?  Do you believe that campus LGBT societies are gay supremacists?

EDIT:  Further, your entire argument is based on the semantics of the word feminism.  I'm not sure dismissing counters with a breezy "semantics" is valid.  We are discussing semantics.
« Last Edit: March 20, 2014, 12:36:14 PM by Kythia »

Offline Ephiral

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Re: Feminism, Mens Rights and Other Nonsense.
« Reply #43 on: March 20, 2014, 12:35:12 PM »
Frankly, I've done very little research on MRA. It doesn't interest me. I have spoken to some of its advocates, all I'm saying those people weren't being poisonous, in fact they were saying largely what I was saying, to which I responded that whatever they are trying to achieve will not be achieved any better under the banner of MRA, than it would under the banner of feminism. I never said their sites are not poisonous, I was speaking from personal experience.
So you've self-admittedly done little research, but hold yourself out as very informed?

Again, it doesn't matter whether feminism devaluates men's issues or not in its philosophy, when it does so in its name. I don't get it how this basic psychological message fails to go unnoticed constantly. It's like saying "Fatfree diet, but actually we advocate a diet that's balanced in its energy consumption." Even if it was true, that name would still have people think "Well, that's crazy!"
A name that acnowledges the history of the movement and the valuable contribution of those who came before seems worthwhile to me. If people are going to reject the movement based solely on its name, they were never interested in seriously considering it in the first place. This is the clearest example of motivated stopping I've ever seen.

How should MRA ever achieve anything, the people who are sensible, are afraid to organize in fear of being branded as misogynist pricks for even mentioning their point of view. The people who do organize, are misogynistic pricks who don't care about being branded as such.
Funny, I know a lot of sensible people who speak about some of the issues you cite and seek to address the problem, are part of an organized movement, and aren't branded as misogynist pricks. Quite the opposite. True, they don't do so under the banner of "men's rights", but that's because that label has been pretty much entirely coopted by misogynist pricks. Sort of like how, even if people are hard-left socialists in favour of a strong national identity and government, they're not going to call themselves "National Socialists", because the well's been poisoned there.

Feminism has room in it for people such as you describe.

I would compare that to Jezebel. Do you think Jezebel speaks for Feminism very well?
Not terribly so, but it gets significantly higher marks than any MRA site I've ever seen.

I provide sources in my last post. Have you ever heard of a biased study? I mean, when a person of a certain movement makes a study regarding problems that don't really suit the ethos of their movement? And finds out all the problems that were supposed to be there, according to a multitude of studies, suddenly aren't there. That's called biased. It doesn't address any points.
Um. You may want to look again. My second link, the one discussing the elimination of gender gaps, was in a feminist journal. My first one, questioning the existence of such gaps, was from the UK Department for Education. Are you claiming that's a feminist movement? I note that you're not disputing my actual rebuttal - do you accept that, if boys are underperforming as you claim, then approaches that seek to eliminate any and all gender gaps address this issue?

A detailed examination of those sources.
Sources: (No MRA sites!)

Gender in education: http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2013/02/21/new-book-explains-why-women-outpace-men-education
Is about higher education, not "boys", and cites gender stereotypes as the underlying problem. So your solution, given that dealing with gender roles is apparently invalid, is...?

Prison terms: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/09/11/men-women-prison-sentence-length-gender-gap_n_1874742.html
Explicitly does not control for other variables such as criminal history, and indeed, the data shows that the men studied have much more severe criminal histories. This is not to dismiss the possibility that such an issue exists, but I'd like to see a paper with proper controls first.

Homelessness: http://www.crisis.org.uk/pages/homeless-diff-groups.html
Measures clients of homeless services, and goes on to say that women have a problem accessing these services and are generally discouraged. It cites these problems as the reason that 66% of homeless women studied have never accessed these services. Pop quiz: If homeless populations are equal, but only 1/3 of women access services for the homeless while almost all men do, what percentage of clients should we expect to be women?

Homicide, violence http://www.victimsweek.gc.ca/res/r512.html
Is a real problem, and worth addressing - but, given that most of this is stranger violence, things that address it are probably going to look like non-gendered anti-violence campaigns.

Boys more likely to be physically abused. http://www.washington.edu/news/2000/04/13/older-children-boys-more-likely-to-be-physically-abused-in-families-with-history-of-wife-abuse-study-indicates/
Indicates that this is attributable in unknown quantity to adolescent boys intervening in abuse incidents. Would like to see a control for this, or at least an examination of its prevalence. Note also that this study specifically cites households with a istory of domestic violence against women; campaigns against intimate partner violence would seem to address the entire dataset.

Gender ratio on child sexual abuse (boys 48%, girls 52%) http://www.onhealth.com/child_abuse/page2.htm
Explicitly rebuts your claim; the statistic you quote is for maltreatment in general. In the paragraph below that, it cites sexual abuse victims as 75% female.

Men less valuable in justice system: http://www.nber.org/digest/aug00/w7676.html
Is a gender-role issue - violence against women is seen as especially abhorrent, because women are to be coddled and protected. Feminism directly addresses this. What's your solution?

Health spending: http://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/health/men-die-earlier-but-womens-health-gets-four-times-more-funding/story-fneuzlbd-1226794504245 (You aren't telling me that pregnancy alone explains 'four times' the spending?)
First: Some of the imbalances this paper cites (breast vs prostate cancer) are issues for men, while others (testicular vs ovarian cancer) actually indicate possible issues for women. Second: You've noted above that men are more likely to be victims of violence, including homicide. Are treatments for violent injuries gendered? Does this bring into question how much of a gap there really is?

In short, it seems you have a strong tendency to either ignore potential explanations for your data other than "Men are being shortchanged here!" or misread the data entirely. Please try again.

http://fabiusmaximus.com/2009/07/07/women/
http://www.statcan.gc.ca/pub/89-503-x/2010001/article/11542-eng.htm
http://blogs.wsj.com/economics/2010/01/29/women-more-likely-than-men-to-graduate-college-at-22/
Will look at these shortly; this post is getting delayed enough already.

Just because you have sources doesn't mean they are infallible.
It certainly makes them better than naked assertions, which is all I saw at time of writing, or shoddy interpretations of existing data.

I also did not claim feminism stands as an opposition to equality. Though a lot of the time, certain strands of it do. Just riddle me this: There is an extreme fringe of feminism, the fire breathing dragons fringe. It is not a big one, and it does not represent feminism as it is, but it is there, and it is vocal.

Now imagine an extreme fringe of equalism. What do they want? More equality for everyone? I mean, you can't twist that to your own meanings, equality is just that, equality. Sure you can try to twist the agenda, but at least we're rid of the psychological implication of the name.
Your OP said that there was "little talk of real equality", because feminists continue to call themselves feminists. Rebutted. As to the rest: How would you twist "equalism"? By demanding equal time and resources devoted to men's issues, when they aren't equal in scope. You know, exactly what I said I mostly see self-styled "egalitarians" doing.


I am certain that the position of equality for equality's sake is superior to any other position that wants to drive equality, when the goal is to drive onwards equality. Yes. How could it not be? Besides, I've provided sources for whatever I've said, so no, facts aren't to be damned.
And why exactly do you think feminism pushes for equality, if not "for equality's sake"? You've provided sources that didn't say what you claimed they said, for the most part, so I stand by my statement.

The fact that you pick a side means that equality is not what you have in mind. As much as women like to think it, they aren't the same as men. Men and women are different, and there are pros and cons to both genders. It doesn't make one side stronger or weaker than the other, it just makes them different.
Can we please, please try to avoid opening the massive can of worms that is gender-essentialism? It's highly tangental and highly contentious, and derails are extremely likely, especially given that there are Lieges present in-thread.

Offline Valthazar

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Re: Feminism, Mens Rights and Other Nonsense.
« Reply #44 on: March 20, 2014, 12:39:46 PM »
No. 

I'm at a loss to know what you think it does, to be honest. 

Do you believe the US NAACP is opposed to racism or just racism as it affects "Coloured People".  Do you believe that Child Welfare organisations think that adults can go fuck themselves?  Do you believe that campus LGBT societies are gay supremacists?

I don't necessarily agree with his line of reasoning, but I think his point is that the inherent nature of the organizations (like the ones you have listed) are to cater primarily to their respective constituencies.  There was a thread earlier about how sexual assault aid organizations (largely funded by women's advocacy groups) willfully under-report male victims of sexual assault to maintain their narrative on female victimization.

The mission of the NAACP is to, "ensure the political, educational, social, and economic equality of rights of all persons and to eliminate race-based discrimination," (Source).

Yet it is not a stretch to say that the NAACP is not equally as concerned about the fewer instances of discrimination against Caucasians - despite its mission to do so.

edit: typo
« Last Edit: March 20, 2014, 12:47:22 PM by Valthazar »

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Re: Feminism, Mens Rights and Other Nonsense.
« Reply #45 on: March 20, 2014, 12:48:59 PM »
You'll mean this thread I assume?

The one where it was mentioned that aid organisations (not sexual assault aid organisations) are underreporting and you claimed without bothering to show the single slightest shred of evidence whatsoever that this was due to them being funded by women's advocacy groups.  At the time it was just "your guess" but now I see it has progressed to a statement of fact.  What changed your mind?

Regardless, as to your actual point.  Yes, feminism grew out of women's movements.  But that's not Kane's point.  Kane's point is:

I'm not a MRA. I will keep repeating this as long as I have to. I believe there are more women's issues than mens issues. I also know, for a fact, that the psychological implication of calling Equality "Feminism" Is that men's problems get devaluated. No matter how good of a job feminists are doing.

My point is that equality is not called feminism.

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Re: Feminism, Mens Rights and Other Nonsense.
« Reply #46 on: March 20, 2014, 12:49:42 PM »
Yet it is not a stretch to say that the NAACP is not equally as concerned about the fewer instances of discrimination against Caucasians - despite its mission to do so.
Equal concern about a smaller problem is not equality; it is bias in favour of the victims of the smaller problem. Proportional concern, attention, and resources would be equality.

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Re: Feminism, Mens Rights and Other Nonsense.
« Reply #47 on: March 20, 2014, 12:54:08 PM »
At the time it was just "your guess" but now I see it has progressed to a statement of fact.  What changed your mind?

I apologize for coming across as if I was stating a fact.  Most of the aid organizations cited in those articles were women's advocacy groups - such as Hillary Clinton's organization - which is funded entirely to help female victims.  I cannot think of another reason why male victims would be willfully under-reported.

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Re: Feminism, Mens Rights and Other Nonsense.
« Reply #48 on: March 20, 2014, 12:55:52 PM »
I apologize for coming across as if I was stating a fact.  Most of the aid organizations cited in those articles were women's advocacy groups - such as Hillary Clinton's organization - which is funded entirely to help female victims.  I cannot think of another reason why male victims would be willfully under-reported.

Well, clearly there is.  As the first one I came across called out by name was the UNHCR which isn't funded by women's advocacy groups. 

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Re: Feminism, Mens Rights and Other Nonsense.
« Reply #49 on: March 20, 2014, 12:58:26 PM »
I am not sure why you are picking on this point, when I already said that it is simply "most" of the aid organizations that were women's advocacy groups.  I never implied that they were exclusively female-oriented.  This would likely provide an explanation, however, as to why male victims were being underrepresented in reporting.