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Author Topic: Feminism, Mens Rights and Other Nonsense.  (Read 3789 times)

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Offline KaneTopic starter

Feminism, Mens Rights and Other Nonsense.
« on: March 20, 2014, 09:26:40 AM »
Why is feminism the only right way? If you are a man and even question feminism, you are immediately a misogynist prick. If you are woman and question feminism, you are just stupid and can't stand up for yourself. There can not be a debate of validity of feminism in any public forum, as you will not even be listened to.

Why do we have a men's rights movement? To 'combat' feminism? To combat women? How is men's rights movement any more productive than feminism? Why do men's rights advocates think they have 'the better arguments' when what they do is really the exact same as feminism, just aimed to put men ahead, rather than women.

Why is there so little talk of real equality? Why does no one coin the term "Equalism?" Because frankly, no one gender, group, or race needs equality any less, or any more than another.

What I see happening a lot, is people pitting the rights debate against each other. "It's feminism because most equality issues are women's problems." Even if it was so, it doesn't mean men's equality issues do not exist. The men's rights movement isn't any better, they easily dismiss the equality problems women have without even giving them a proper thought. It's like there is a 'gender war' going on, and the debate is on 'who has the most problems' rather than 'how do we fix the problems that affect everyone?'

One defence for feminism is that it deals with a specific set of issue. Like having a specialist doctor for a specific set of conditions. Indeed, but if this is the case, why are feminists so ready and willing to bash the men's rights movement? I mean, essentially, it's just dealing with a specific set of issues, right? This defence is just easily exposed form of hypocrisy. Men's rights movement might not use this defence, but they are very willing to bash feminism, even when feminists have a valid point. So how does this serve anyone? How is this exactly better than having everyone concentrate on all these issues? How is it better that we have two sides bashing each other? I fail to see the benefits in this, really, help me out, will you?

Another defence for feminism is that it's not exclusive to women. They would be right. Feminism does work to try and stop the forcing of men into their specific gender roles. That is great. However, I've not yet come across a concerned feminist speaking about how men are doing worse at school, for example, or any other issue not directly related to the gender role they are being forced to. Men's rights movement actually has a similar defence, but it's no better for them either.

So really. Why do we have to play for one team or another? I'll tell you why. We want to choose the side that touches us the most. If we feel that the world does women wrong, we want to be feminists. If we feel that world does men wrong, we'll be men's rights activists. We want to fix issues that matter to us personally. Our personal opinions are invested when we look into these issues. However, that's not the way to do things, it will never bring forth a long term resolution to these issues. We must be capable of shedding our own biases, and looking at the bigger picture. We must realize that the world wrongs everyone, and everyone is just as important as each other. Calling a movement Feminism, or men's rights movement, in itself gives the feeling that the opposing gender is not as important. No matter how good your intentions are. We need to focus on gender equality as a whole, not the way we see it through our biased world views.

Offline Florence

Re: Feminism, Mens Rights and Other Nonsense.
« Reply #1 on: March 20, 2014, 09:44:07 AM »
First off, I think its important to differentiate between feminism and "feminism".

Feminism is the belief and avocation of policies rooted in the belief that men and women are created equal, and deserve to be treated equally. Its called 'feminism' because females are the ones who have been traditionally given unfair treatment in America, and thus it is their rights that need campaigning, not men's.

"Feminism" is the idea that everything bad in the world is entirely the fault of men, that any man will rape any woman given the opportunity, and that essentially anything a man does to even remotely flirt with a woman is inherently sexist and that man is a pig to be ridiculed and made into a pariah.

The former is something I am very much in favor of, the latter is something that makes the former look bad.

Also I find that the vast majority of people campaigning for "men's rights" are angry at having their authority over women challenged, and are stuck in a 1950's sort of mentality. The simple fact is... men's rights don't really need protection. That's not to say we should let men have all their rights trampled on by women... but I struggle to think of any specific issue in which men legitimately face a social injustice that is unique to men.

Offline Valthazar

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Re: Feminism, Mens Rights and Other Nonsense.
« Reply #2 on: March 20, 2014, 09:55:47 AM »
There will always be women who support today's feminism, and those who do not.  You make a good point that many women who do not identify with modern-day feminism (even here on E) are often afraid to post in these sorts of threads, for fear of being judged or ridiculed by other women.

So that's why I wouldn't put much stake into what 'mainstream' trends are suggesting.  Whatever your views are, you will always find others - both men and women - who agree with you.

Offline Sabby

Re: Feminism, Mens Rights and Other Nonsense.
« Reply #3 on: March 20, 2014, 10:16:25 AM »
I'm an Egalitarian. I want equality for men and women. That's it. I personally detest this emotional blackmail that is 'you are either a Feminist or a sexist'. I refuse to touch the majority of groups that identify as Feminists because of firebrand thinking like this. I'd rather see men and women treated equally, not social justice thuggery.

However, I do recognize that attaining equality right now would involve elevating womens rights to be the same as mens rights. That's not to say that men don't suffer sexism, but the vast majority of sexual inequality effects women.

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Re: Feminism, Mens Rights and Other Nonsense.
« Reply #4 on: March 20, 2014, 10:26:23 AM »
This can be taken to most any issue we have today and I have spoken about it in other threads on this forum. With our modern media there seems to be a with us or against us mindset on pick about any topic. We have become largely defined in the press by extremes when most people probably fall someplace in the middle. I am not sure how to fix this, but I suspect it is a large part of the reason most topics seem to be so divisive and if you read the comment thread on about any news story folks seem to be at each other's throats.

Offline Bloodied Porcelain

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Re: Feminism, Mens Rights and Other Nonsense.
« Reply #5 on: March 20, 2014, 10:29:20 AM »
I'm a feminist. I don't think men are lesser or that everything is the fault of men (though when you look at a logical time line of the world, most of our major problems we've seen happened when men were in charge, but I think that's more because men are human than because they're men. The problems may not be the same if it had been women in charge all that time, but there would still be problems). I follow what I see as "true" feminism... I want everyone equal. Period. All the same rights. All the same advantages and disadvantages.

I've actually met a considerable amount more "traditional" feminists who think everyone should be equal than I have "feminists" who think men are beneath women. The issue is that the later group is less reasonable and thus louder and drown out the rest of us. They are also far more sensational than the bulk of feminists, so they're the ones that get highlighted by media and the like. It isn't that all or even most feminists are anti-men.

That said, I think the "men's rights" movement is 99% a joke. Most of what is pushed for in this "movement" is the claim that men doing worse in school, in jobs, or just in general happiness because women are pushing to be equal to them, or that more women need to "get back in the kitchen" so men can be men. Never mind the fact that men still have most of the privilege in this country (the US) and most others. I think doing well in school and in your job and just generally being happy is your responsibility, and so blaming it on society and other people is a cop-out.

Offline Ephiral

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Re: Feminism, Mens Rights and Other Nonsense.
« Reply #6 on: March 20, 2014, 10:33:05 AM »
Why is feminism the only right way? If you are a man and even question feminism, you are immediately a misogynist prick. If you are woman and question feminism, you are just stupid and can't stand up for yourself. There can not be a debate of validity of feminism in any public forum, as you will not even be listened to.
When the overwhelming majority of "question the validity" arguments come from harassers and hate groups, it's kinda understandable that you will look like a harasser or hate-group member when you start throwing these arguments around.

Why do we have a men's rights movement? To 'combat' feminism? To combat women? How is men's rights movement any more productive than feminism? Why do men's rights advocates think they have 'the better arguments' when what they do is really the exact same as feminism, just aimed to put men ahead, rather than women.
Whooooooa, there. Telling me MRAs are exactly the same as feminists with a quick s/women/men tells me you know very little about either. The so-called "men's rights movement" is hatred in defense of privilege. Mainstream movement feminism is about the eradication of gender privilege. (Cue the inevitable "But Valerie Solanas! And Andrea Dworkin! And trans-exclusionary radical feminists!" counterpoint. There's a reason I said "mainstream"; that's a tiny fringe actively resisted by the bulk of feminism. This is distinct from MRAs in that... well, can anybody show me a single MRA community that isn't filled to the brim with blatant misogyny?)

Why is there so little talk of real equality? Why does no one coin the term "Equalism?" Because frankly, no one gender, group, or race needs equality any less, or any more than another.
There's plenty of talk of real equality, once you stop defining feminism by what you heard about it from third parties. There are people who call themselves "egalitarian"; in my (admittedly non-universal) experience, this is code for "men's issues are just as all-encompassing and serious as women's issues, so stop spending so much time talking about women!". The facts do not bear this out.

What I see happening a lot, is people pitting the rights debate against each other. "It's feminism because most equality issues are women's problems." Even if it was so, it doesn't mean men's equality issues do not exist. The men's rights movement isn't any better, they easily dismiss the equality problems women have without even giving them a proper thought. It's like there is a 'gender war' going on, and the debate is on 'who has the most problems' rather than 'how do we fix the problems that affect everyone?'
Funfact: There are numerous ongoing discussions within feminist circles, right now, about how gender roles and expectations harm men, how underreported domestic violence against men is, and how we need more men's shelters. A key point in the distinction between feminists and MRAs: Feminists have built shelters. MRAs have instead campaigned for women's shelters to be shut down.

One defence for feminism is that it deals with a specific set of issue. Like having a specialist doctor for a specific set of conditions. Indeed, but if this is the case, why are feminists so ready and willing to bash the men's rights movement? I mean, essentially, it's just dealing with a specific set of issues, right? This defence is just easily exposed form of hypocrisy. Men's rights movement might not use this defence, but they are very willing to bash feminism, even when feminists have a valid point. So how does this serve anyone? How is this exactly better than having everyone concentrate on all these issues? How is it better that we have two sides bashing each other? I fail to see the benefits in this, really, help me out, will you?
Why are feminists willing to bash the men's rights movement? Simple: Show me a single recognized MRA site that isn't full of rape jokes, judging women by their appearance, reference to male feminists as "betas" or "manginas" who are simply trying to get laid, active harassment campaigns against outspoken feminists, etc. Just one.

I won't hold my breath.

Another defence for feminism is that it's not exclusive to women. They would be right. Feminism does work to try and stop the forcing of men into their specific gender roles. That is great. However, I've not yet come across a concerned feminist speaking about how men are doing worse at school, for example, or any other issue not directly related to the gender role they are being forced to. Men's rights movement actually has a similar defence, but it's no better for them either.
Your example is poorly-chosen, but here's an article from a feminist journal that specifically talks about eliminating gender gaps and promoting gender equality in academic performance, without reference to who's over- or under-performing. That's two of your "feminists never talk about this" points countered in a single five-minute Google search.

So really. Why do we have to play for one team or another? I'll tell you why. We want to choose the side that touches us the most. If we feel that the world does women wrong, we want to be feminists. If we feel that world does men wrong, we'll be men's rights activists. We want to fix issues that matter to us personally. Our personal opinions are invested when we look into these issues. However, that's not the way to do things, it will never bring forth a long term resolution to these issues. We must be capable of shedding our own biases, and looking at the bigger picture. We must realize that the world wrongs everyone, and everyone is just as important as each other. Calling a movement Feminism, or men's rights movement, in itself gives the feeling that the opposing gender is not as important. No matter how good your intentions are. We need to focus on gender equality as a whole, not the way we see it through our biased world views.
Exhortations for others to shed their biases and look at the big picture come off as slightly hypocritical when it appears you're informed by significant bias and lack of information. Just sayin'.

Offline Valthazar

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Re: Feminism, Mens Rights and Other Nonsense.
« Reply #7 on: March 20, 2014, 10:34:43 AM »
That said, I think the "men's rights" movement is 99% a joke. Most of what is pushed for in this "movement" is the claim that men doing worse in school, in jobs, or just in general happiness because women are pushing to be equal to them, or that more women need to "get back in the kitchen" so men can be men. Never mind the fact that men still have most of the privilege in this country (the US) and most others.  I think doing well in school and in your job and just generally being happy is your responsibility, and so blaming it on society and other people is a cop-out.

I agree with you.  But if this is the true feminist perspective, then why is our university's administration using affirmative action methods to prevent our male enrollment from dipping below 40%?  I have frequently said that there are no problems with more women entering than men, since they are better qualified now, it seems.

Offline Bloodied Porcelain

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Re: Feminism, Mens Rights and Other Nonsense.
« Reply #8 on: March 20, 2014, 10:37:54 AM »
I agree with you.  But if this is the true feminist perspective, then why is our university's administration using affirmative action methods to prevent our male enrollment from dipping below 40%?  I have frequently said that there are no problems with more women entering than men, since they are better qualified now, it seems.

I can't presume to know why your university's administration is doing what they're doing, but my guess would be that they are trying to keep an appearance of "balance" so as to keep the largest number of people possible happy and interested in the school. If people start thinking that they're purposefully accepting more women than men, then they lose funding. This is the same principle behind the affirmative action we saw a lot of schools start making when the feminist movement got big and schools were pushing to bring in more women and even out the numbers. It looks better to those who give money.
« Last Edit: March 20, 2014, 10:39:42 AM by Bloodied Porcelain »

Offline Kythia

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Re: Feminism, Mens Rights and Other Nonsense.
« Reply #9 on: March 20, 2014, 10:39:40 AM »
But if this is the true feminist perspective, then why is our university's administration using affirmative action methods to prevent our male enrollment from dipping below 40%? 

Have you tried asking them instead of us?  My guess would be something along the lines of "Feminism, true, "true" or otherwise, is in no way a factor in out admissions policy."

Offline KaneTopic starter

Re: Feminism, Mens Rights and Other Nonsense.
« Reply #10 on: March 20, 2014, 10:40:44 AM »
First off, I think its important to differentiate between feminism and "feminism".

Feminism is the belief and avocation of policies rooted in the belief that men and women are created equal, and deserve to be treated equally. Its called 'feminism' because females are the ones who have been traditionally given unfair treatment in America, and thus it is their rights that need campaigning, not men's.


I addressed this point. Either way, even if it is a legitimate point for some people identifying as feminists it still does not evade the fact that calling it feminism automatically gives the sense that one gender is more important than the other, no matter how good the intentions of the feminist may be.

Calling it feminism, causes a large portion of people simply overlook the issues men might be facing.

Also I find that the vast majority of people campaigning for "men's rights" are angry at having their authority over women challenged, and are stuck in a 1950's sort of mentality. The simple fact is... men's rights don't really need protection. That's not to say we should let men have all their rights trampled on by women... but I struggle to think of any specific issue in which men legitimately face a social injustice that is unique to men.
Actually, no. Most people I see advocating men's rights movement are perfectly rational about it, and not angry whatsoever. What you are saying is the exact word to word description of the men's rights movement, that you would hear from a feminist. In the other hand, you would hear just as dismissive of an opinion of feminism from men's rights advocate. I stress here neither of these groups are trying to make anyone's lives more dificult, both are trying to address gender equality issues, but both are being incredibly biased about their opinions.

Specific social injustices unique to men:
"Man up, don't whine." Men are not allowed to complain - This among other gender specific social problems leads to men committing more than 80% of all suicides. Committing three times more suicides is a problem unique to men. This is possibly the largest issue, that goes around all aspects of a man's life.

Men are 30% less likely to graduate from High School.

Men are more likely to get longer sentences for the same crime.

Men are more than twice as likely to be homeless. (Have you ever heard of 'men's shelter?')

Men are 3 times more likely to be the victim of a homicide, more likely to be the victim of an assault, and just as likely to be the victim of domestic abuse. (Except in children, boys are more likely to be abused physically than girls, 60% of all physical abuse in children is directed toward males. Sexual abuse is pretty much 50/50 in case you were wondering)

Men are less likely to get the custody of their children.

Men are less valuable: On average, when a man is killed in a traffic accident, the sentence for the driver is 56% longer than when a woman is killed. (Traffic accidents are a good way to measure, because in other kind of homicides, we could wonder if women are more cruelly murdered.) Western governments spend much more money on women's health issues than men's, despite the fact men are more likely to die early, due to a health issue.

Now do not take me wrong, I am simply pointing out men have a plethora of unique issues I can throw out there without even thinking. If you ask me, I do think there are more women's issues out there than men's issues, especially if we take a global view of things. I could list even more of those here, but I won't, since no one was questioning it. We all know they are there. That doesn't justify naming 'equality' after one gender. It's like we'd name racism after the fact that people from the African origin get way more stick than anyone else. The naming, while it seems like an innocent little thing, makes all the difference, it devaluates the problems of everyone else.


Offline meikle

Re: Feminism, Mens Rights and Other Nonsense.
« Reply #11 on: March 20, 2014, 10:44:24 AM »
It was an MRA thread in disguise all along!  Who could have predicted?

Offline Kythia

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Re: Feminism, Mens Rights and Other Nonsense.
« Reply #12 on: March 20, 2014, 10:44:36 AM »
That doesn't justify naming 'equality' after one gender. It's like we'd name racism after the fact that people from the African origin get way more stick than anyone else. The naming, while it seems like an innocent little thing, makes all the difference, it devaluates the problems of everyone else.

The "ism" in question is sexism, not feminism.

Offline Valthazar

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Re: Feminism, Mens Rights and Other Nonsense.
« Reply #13 on: March 20, 2014, 10:44:45 AM »
Have you tried asking them instead of us?  My guess would be something along the lines of "Feminism, true, "true" or otherwise, is in no way a factor in out admissions policy."

Oh I'm aware of the reason why, I was just interested in Bloodied Porcerlain's perspective as a feminist.  We have had meetings about this issue, and it troubles most of us that we have to have to implement such a policy.  Our university has a strong Women and Gender Studies department, which is why administratively, it is a bit disconcerting that we have to take a lower qualified male student over a strongly qualified female student in many cases.

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Re: Feminism, Mens Rights and Other Nonsense.
« Reply #14 on: March 20, 2014, 10:51:59 AM »
Specific social injustices unique to men:
"Man up, don't whine." Men are not allowed to complain - This among other gender specific social problems leads to men committing more than 80% of all suicides. Committing three times more suicides is a problem unique to men. This is possibly the largest issue, that goes around all aspects of a man's life.

This reminds me of a video, created by a group of feminists, who look into this type of emotional suppressive behaviour. This is the trailer for it - The Mask You Live In.

Also, cite your sources. You put out a lot of numbers, I would like to see where you pulled them from
« Last Edit: March 20, 2014, 10:54:32 AM by Dim Hon »

Offline Avis habilis

Re: Feminism, Mens Rights and Other Nonsense.
« Reply #15 on: March 20, 2014, 10:54:19 AM »
"Man up, don't whine." Men are not allowed to complain - This among other gender specific social problems leads to men committing more than 80% of all suicides. Committing three times more suicides is a problem unique to men. This is possibly the largest issue, that goes around all aspects of a man's life.

Which is sexist gender essentialism, which is what feminism is trying to stamp out.

Men are more than twice as likely to be homeless. (Have you ever heard of 'men's shelter?')

Yes.

Men are 3 times more likely to be the victim of a homicide, more likely to be the victim of an assault, and just as likely to be the victim of domestic abuse. (Except in children, boys are more likely to be abused physically than girls, 60% of all physical abuse in children is directed toward males. Sexual abuse is pretty much 50/50 in case you were wondering)

Which feminist groups are trying to stamp out & MRAs express no interest in doing anything about. It's just fodder for cries of "see, we have it exactly as tough as you do so STFU women".

Men are less likely to get the custody of their children.

Because women are assumed to be the natural nurturing parent, which is sexist gender essentialism, which is what feminism is trying to stamp out.

Offline Sabby

Re: Feminism, Mens Rights and Other Nonsense.
« Reply #16 on: March 20, 2014, 10:58:00 AM »
It's just fodder for cries of "see, we have it exactly as tough as you do so STFU women".

Could you please provide a direct quote of Kane saying anything like that? I believe all he has tried to say is that gender inequality issues do exist for men, and that they are just as worthy of attention and recognition as womens inequality issues. Trying to make it sound like he's saying 'men have it just as rough' is incredibly dishonest of you.

Edit: Appears I misunderstood Avis. Basically, it read to me as if he were asserting that Kane had said 'we have it just as tough', rather then MRA groups. I reread his post multiple times and it just refused to click in my head. I really have no idea how that happened. Apologies.
« Last Edit: March 20, 2014, 11:31:14 AM by Sabby »

Offline Bloodied Porcelain

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Re: Feminism, Mens Rights and Other Nonsense.
« Reply #17 on: March 20, 2014, 10:59:17 AM »
Could you please provide a direct quote of Kane saying anything like that? I believe all he has tried to say is that gender inequality issues do exist for men, and that they are just as worthy of attention and recognition as womens inequality issues. Trying to make it sound like he's saying 'men have it just as rough' is incredibly dishonest of you.

See the first half of his response to that issue. Removing the first half is incredibly dishonest of you.

Which feminist groups are trying to stamp out & MRAs express no interest in doing anything about. It's just fodder for cries of "see, we have it exactly as tough as you do so STFU women".

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Re: Feminism, Mens Rights and Other Nonsense.
« Reply #18 on: March 20, 2014, 10:59:55 AM »

Men are more than twice as likely to be homeless. (Have you ever heard of 'men's shelter?')

I know of at least three Men's shelters in my town.

Offline Kythia

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Re: Feminism, Mens Rights and Other Nonsense.
« Reply #19 on: March 20, 2014, 11:00:29 AM »
Could you please provide a direct quote of Kane saying anything like that? I believe all he has tried to say is that gender inequality issues do exist for men, and that they are just as worthy of attention and recognition as womens inequality issues. Trying to make it sound like he's saying 'men have it just as rough' is incredibly dishonest of you.

Avis was referring to MRAs, not Kane.  "It's just fodder [for MRA groups] for cries of..."  The full quote explains that.

Offline Avis habilis

Re: Feminism, Mens Rights and Other Nonsense.
« Reply #20 on: March 20, 2014, 11:02:02 AM »
For anyone actually interested in what anyone's actually doing about the issues Kane raised, check out part four of this (long but useful) essay: http://www.autostraddle.com/helpful-advice-for-talking-to-men-who-think-misandry-is-a-thing-170632/

Offline Florence

Re: Feminism, Mens Rights and Other Nonsense.
« Reply #21 on: March 20, 2014, 11:04:13 AM »
I addressed this point. Either way, even if it is a legitimate point for some people identifying as feminists it still does not evade the fact that calling it feminism automatically gives the sense that one gender is more important than the other, no matter how good the intentions of the feminist may be.

Calling it feminism, causes a large portion of people simply overlook the issues men might be facing.
Actually, no. Most people I see advocating men's rights movement are perfectly rational about it, and not angry whatsoever. What you are saying is the exact word to word description of the men's rights movement, that you would hear from a feminist. In the other hand, you would hear just as dismissive of an opinion of feminism from men's rights advocate. I stress here neither of these groups are trying to make anyone's lives more dificult, both are trying to address gender equality issues, but both are being incredibly biased about their opinions.

Specific social injustices unique to men:
"Man up, don't whine." Men are not allowed to complain - This among other gender specific social problems leads to men committing more than 80% of all suicides. Committing three times more suicides is a problem unique to men. This is possibly the largest issue, that goes around all aspects of a man's life.

Men are 30% less likely to graduate from High School.

Men are more likely to get longer sentences for the same crime.

Men are more than twice as likely to be homeless. (Have you ever heard of 'men's shelter?')

Men are 3 times more likely to be the victim of a homicide, more likely to be the victim of an assault, and just as likely to be the victim of domestic abuse. (Except in children, boys are more likely to be abused physically than girls, 60% of all physical abuse in children is directed toward males. Sexual abuse is pretty much 50/50 in case you were wondering)

Men are less likely to get the custody of their children.

Men are less valuable: On average, when a man is killed in a traffic accident, the sentence for the driver is 56% longer than when a woman is killed. (Traffic accidents are a good way to measure, because in other kind of homicides, we could wonder if women are more cruelly murdered.) Western governments spend much more money on women's health issues than men's, despite the fact men are more likely to die early, due to a health issue.

Now do not take me wrong, I am simply pointing out men have a plethora of unique issues I can throw out there without even thinking. If you ask me, I do think there are more women's issues out there than men's issues, especially if we take a global view of things. I could list even more of those here, but I won't, since no one was questioning it. We all know they are there. That doesn't justify naming 'equality' after one gender. It's like we'd name racism after the fact that people from the African origin get way more stick than anyone else. The naming, while it seems like an innocent little thing, makes all the difference, it devaluates the problems of everyone else.

I'm HIGHLY skeptical of those statistics, especially the abuse ones. I have no doubt that domestic abuse, as well as sexual abuse towards men are horrifically under reported, but for that exact reason, I'm curious how someone figured it was a 50/50 split.

As for the health costs, just throwing this out there, but if they're including pregnancy and pregnancy related issues into that, then there might be your culprit. Last I checked, men generally don't have to take extended hospital stays to pop out a little human.

But yes, as others have said, I'd like to see sources for these statistics.

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Re: Feminism, Mens Rights and Other Nonsense.
« Reply #22 on: March 20, 2014, 11:05:51 AM »
My only suggestion to the Men's Rights Advocates in this thread is to avoid falling into the trap of thinking that all women are feminists.  They may not be as prominent, but many women actually agree with what you are saying.

For example, Alyssa Condrey, Director of the Network of Enlightened Women says that, ďA lot of times, more radical feminism has a victim mentality.  They want to totally isolate and separate themselves from men. We donít agree with that.Ē (Source)

Respect the views of feminists, while at the same time, we should feel free to hold our own views.

Offline KaneTopic starter

Re: Feminism, Mens Rights and Other Nonsense.
« Reply #23 on: March 20, 2014, 11:08:04 AM »
When the overwhelming majority of "question the validity" arguments come from harassers and hate groups, it's kinda understandable that you will look
like a harasser or hate-group member when you start throwing these arguments around.
Invalid justification, just because majority of people are douchebags, that desn't mean you can just dismiss everything on that notion. No, it's not understandable. You can't even begin a debate without any hate-mongering intended without getting branded as a misogynist. I don't even advocate men's rights movement. I think it goes in the ridiculous bin most of the time, yet just saying it should be equalism, rather than feminism gets me branded as misogynist every time I open my mouth.

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Whooooooa, there. Telling me MRAs are exactly the same as feminists with a quick s/women/men tells me you know very little about either. The so-called "men's rights movement" is hatred in defense of privilege. Mainstream movement feminism is about the eradication of gender privilege. (Cue the inevitable "But Valerie Solanas! And Andrea Dworkin! And trans-exclusionary radical feminists!" counterpoint. There's a reason I said "mainstream"; that's a tiny fringe actively resisted by the bulk of feminism. This is distinct from MRAs in that... well, can anybody show me a single MRA community that isn't filled to the brim with blatant misogyny?)
You are doing exactly what people do to Feminism. "Whooooaaaa There! Feminists are firebreathing monsters that want to cut your balls off!" Type of a thing. Just because these guys are the most audible of the mens rights movement, doesn't make the movement any more horrendous than feminism. It is just like feminism, just concentrated on different side of the coin. Mens rights movement is also concerned with women's rights, funny enough. Most men's rights supporters I ever met were quite reasonable. Of course you run into the misogynist pricks time and again, but branding the whole movement on that basis is just as bad as branding feminism on that basis. Even the reasonable members of both groups brand each other the worst possible thing, and it is utterly ridiculous.

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There's plenty of talk of real equality, once you stop defining feminism by what you heard about it from third parties. There are people who call themselves "egalitarian"; in my (admittedly non-universal) experience, this is code for "men's issues are just as all-encompassing and serious as women's issues, so stop spending so much time talking about women!". The facts do not bear this out.
Globally, there are certainly more women's issues than men's issues, I never claimed anything else, do not straw-man me and think I won't catch onto it, please. This doesn't remove the fact that calling it feminism devaluates the issues men have, whether they are less numerous or not. This is simply a psychological thing. It bases on no logic, but believe me, psychology plays a great part in these issues.

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Funfact: There are numerous ongoing discussions within feminist circles, right now, about how gender roles and expectations harm men, how underreported domestic violence against men is, and how we need more men's shelters. A key point in the distinction between feminists and MRAs: Feminists have built shelters. MRAs have instead campaigned for women's shelters to be shut down.
Yes, yes there is. And I applaud feminists for that. However, the -only- mens issues- they do deal with, have to do with the -gender roles- so far as I've ever read anywhere. If you can show me anything, just one thing that proves me wrong here, I'd be glad to read it. Other than that, did I ever say that MRA is somehow better than Feminism, because you are speaking like I just did? MRA might well be worse than feminism, but it doesn't change the point that I believe both of them are nonsense as much as each other.

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Why are feminists willing to bash the men's rights movement? Simple: Show me a single recognized MRA site that isn't full of rape jokes, judging women by their appearance, reference to male feminists as "betas" or "manginas" who are simply trying to get laid, active harassment campaigns against outspoken feminists, etc. Just one.
Recognized MRA site? I like to use the quote. "Never have so many come together and accomplished so little" When speaking of MRA. There aren't any recognized MRA sites, MRA is as organized as a herd of headless chickens.

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Your example is poorly-chosen, but here's an article from a feminist journal that specifically talks about eliminating gender gaps and promoting gender equality in academic performance, without reference to who's over- or under-performing. That's two of your "feminists never talk about this" points countered in a single five-minute Google search.
So you linked me to one article that made no mention to the fact that boys perform worse than girls in schools, and one that claims it's all a myth. How does this exactly disprove my point? Unless you can actually point out where does it say in either of the texts that there is an issue here with boys performing worse.

I won't hold my breath.

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Exhortations for others to shed their biases and look at the big picture come off as slightly hypocritical when it appears you're informed by significant bias and lack of information. Just sayin'.
Lack of information would have nothing to do with being biased. Not that I have a lack of information, but either way. Can you tell me what is exactly my bias here? Because I fail to see your point. The fact that I see Feminism and MRA equally nonsensical? I'm sorry, but I'm not biased to either direction. Or is it biased to think that everyone should have equality, and equality shouldn't be labeled under a gender specific term. What is this perceived bias towards exactly?

Offline Sabby

Re: Feminism, Mens Rights and Other Nonsense.
« Reply #24 on: March 20, 2014, 11:14:01 AM »
Avis was referring to MRAs, not Kane.  "It's just fodder [for MRA groups] for cries of..."  The full quote explains that.

Apologies, but it really doesn't read that way to me. Kane listed some statistics, and Avis dismissed them. If he meant that the statistics are highly questionable and created by MRA's for an agenda, that's a completely valid objection, I just didn't see that being conveyed.
« Last Edit: March 20, 2014, 11:18:16 AM by Sabby »