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Author Topic: Ukraine  (Read 13714 times)

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Offline lovelylilT

Re: Ukraine
« Reply #600 on: September 04, 2014, 11:19:41 AM »
I believe lovelylilT's point was about why people in the east of Ukraine want at the very least much closer ties with and possibly outright absorption into Russia as opposed to why Russia is doing what it is. Moreover, it's the context she mentioned of Scotland's upcoming referendum on leaving the United Kingdom and the seeming lack of logic as to why Scotland has a right to do that but the Luhansk and Donetsk regions don't.

The idea of a Ukrainian nation is somewhat of a complex one as the political state of Ukraine that we see today (well, that we saw a couple of years back at least) is largely a construct of mid-20th century politics. For the vast majority of its history what we know as Ukraine now simply didn't exist... it was a disputed border between the Grand Duchy of Lithuania, Poland, Ottoman Empire, Crimean Khanate, independent cossacks and Muscovy (which became Russia). The Cossack Hetmanate/Zaporizhian Host is probably the closest thing there is to a precursor state for the modern Ukraine... and they didn't control what became Luhansk or Donetsk. That area was virtually unpopulated for a while due to slave raids (the so called Wild Fields) and only really grew when it became part of Russia and eventually the USSR. In that regard the Ukraine isn't entirely dissimilar to Yugoslavia... a huge mix of national identities, cultures and histories with 20th century borders imposed on them.

I think it's also worth remembering in this that neither side exactly has a strong claim to legitimacy here. The people now in power in Kiev gained that through the violent overthrow of a democratically elected leader, largely because while he was moving towards closer ties with Russia they wanted closer ties with the EU. That's not entirely dissimilar to what we're seeing the separatists in Luhansk and Donetsk do, even if they are receiving more direct assistance from Russia then the Euromaiden protests got from the West (which from what we know at this point was limited to large amounts of money and coordinators/advisers)

This, it's exactly what I meaned earlier, thank you consortium.

Offline lovelylilT

Re: Ukraine
« Reply #601 on: September 04, 2014, 11:28:38 AM »
I'm sorry your father loses his job, Dashenka. My uncle, he does too, because of sanctions.

Sanctions don't work. They don't hurt Putin, or government very much. They hurt regular ordinary Russian people most. And it makes Russian people not like US or EU, even if they don't like Putin too.

Offline Zakharra

Re: Ukraine
« Reply #602 on: September 04, 2014, 11:39:25 AM »
Okay I feel I have to explain something.

I do NOT agree with Putin. I never did. However, I do understand where he's coming from and where those seperatists are coming from. Understanding why and agreeing with are two different things entirely.

What I don't understand is the reaction from 'the West' and in particular in not defusing the situation. When Russia was having troops on excersize near the Ukranian border, the whole world saw it as a sign of aggression. Now the US is sending 200 men to train with the Ukrainian army and suddenly it's just an excercise? However true or false that might be, it's doing NOTHING to defuse an already volatile situation.

Leads me back to my previous point where I said that the West isn't after helping Ukraine. They're only after destroying Russia. This only got worse when Ukrainian seperatists shot down a plane. Not something Russia is responsible for at all yet everybody holds Russia and Putin responsible for that plane crash, simply because it was shot down by Russian weaponry.

Give me one good reason, with the above mentioned military training example in mind, what the West has done to help Ukraine and defuse the situation entirely.

I feel the west is playing the 'I can do everything that you do, only better' game. Which has stopped being fun for everybody in first grade. It's macho behaviour between Russia and the West. This has never been about Ukraine or helping the 350.000 people that have left their homes and fled the violence. One of which is among us.

So no I don't agree with what Putin's doing but I wouldn't have expected less from him. I would have expected a lot more restrain and tact from the EU and the US.


 It's good that you don't agree with Putin. He is not sounding like he is exactly stable and sounds more like Nikita Khrushchev did in the Cuban Missile Crisis or the leaders of North Korea than like a rational leader by using the threat of nuclear weapons and saying one of its own allied nations is -not- a real nation and that most of its land was once Russian territory. That's not exactly sound reasoning or leadership and definitely not reassuring to Russia's allies or neighbors.

I think a part of the problem is that -any- reaction by the West (US and EU) would be seen as a threat and destabilizing to the area. There are differences though. The Russia war exercises in the spring were also in concert with supplying covert aid (arms and men) to the rebels, and their exercises involved thousands of troops. The exercises NATO is doing involved 200 soldiers. Hardly comparable in numbers and it's being held in response to Russia's actions in Ukraine. If someone is being a loud and noisy bully and has attacked several people in a neighborhood, you can't get mad at people preparing defenses and making a show of strength. The person being the aggressive bully has absolutely -no- reason to be angry or offended either at people reacting to his actions. Russia is acting very much like that bully and is whining/threatening when people take reasonable actions to defend themselves.

  As for your claim the West only wants to destroy Russia; I wish you'd get off of that track. If the West truly wanted to destroy Russia, Russia would be under a massive trade blockade, it's seaports sealed up, economic ties and much or all of its trade cut off, especially with the EU, and it might be under attack by now. But so far it's just been trade sanctions and -nothing- else. So please stop parroting the line that the West wants to destroy Russia when it's patently not true.

  There are only two ways for the situation to be defused. The first is for the West to capitulate and let Russia do whatever it wants in Ukraine and keep their hands off. This would likely only serve to encourage Putin and Russia because their actions would have proven to work and I and many many others can see it being used again in regards to Poland and the Baltic States or even with Kazakhstan. And you'd likely be chirping up that the West should stay out of Russia's actions with those states too.

 The second way to defuse it is for Russia itself to stop stirring the pot.

 The West is not playing a game, anymore than Russia is. The western nations are putting on a show of force, minor as it is,  as a response to Russia's aggressive actions, and aiding a government that has asked for their help. Why? Because it looks like Russia is also eying the territory of Poland, the Baltic States, Moldova and a few other places because Russia used to rule those lands and there's ethnic Russians there. That makes them a convenient excuse to come in and 'protect' Russian citizens as an excuse for an 'invasion'.

 What sort of tact and restraint were you expecting the West to use? Do nothing other than send mildly annoyed diplomatic notes while Russia gobbles up Ukraine? Give Russia free rein to do what it wants?

Iniquitous Opheliac,

Let's pretend that war is declared and that NATO stomps Russia, and by some miracle no nuclear weapons go off...

All that will happen is that you'll have another ISIS on your hands, this time a Russian one, except it will be a lot better armed and have a force so large that it will terrorize the world for years to come...

As much as some might detest Russia, we need it to be stable, to be successful; having it collapse will only hurt the world.

This military exercise in the Ukraine is simply fuelling Putin's propaganda machine, it's helping turn more Russians against the West. And while this might surprise some of you, there are many Russians who disagree with Putin's actions. We seriously need those Russians to stay on our side.


 Letting Russia do what it wants in Ukraine and other areas isn't going to help the stability of the world either. It's giving a bully free rein to do what he wants. Right now, inactivity of the West about Ukraine feeds Russia's propaganda (the West is weak and spineless! Go Russia!) and doing something, even as minor as it is feeds Russia's propaganda. As far as I am concerned. Russia can suck it if/when the West does more exercises and helps the Ukrainian government.  Russia has no reason or basis to complain about us helping the Ukrainian government when they are slipping arms and men under the table (not very stealthily) to the rebels. Russia wants its cake and to eat it too.

Offline Zakharra

Re: Ukraine
« Reply #603 on: September 04, 2014, 11:51:44 AM »
So they are making a stand with the Ukrainian government, against Russia. Fine. You confirmed my point. This isn't about eastern Ukraine. This is about Russia. Thank you for confirming what I have been saying all along.

My father has lost his work, because of this whole boycot Russia stuff. An oil field exploitation has been cancelled, costing BP a few billion pounds. To be honest I don't give a rat's behind about BP but I do care about my family. Dad was going to manage that whole cooperation, now he's without a job. Destroying the Russian government will plunge Russia into chaos, innocent Russians get caught by this and let's not forget all the Russian military material like airplanes, guns and bombs that are out of reach of anybody and will end up on the black market, possibly at ISIS and before you know it, there's a nuclear bomb smuggled to ISIS who decided to aim it at New York and London.

Not to mention the misery the Russian people are having to suffer already.

Even Russians living in London get dirty looks the moment the natives find out you are Russian. Yes it happens.

I've already explained Ukraine's history before, not going to bother doing it again. Definately not to somebody who's showing as little respect to me, my country and my beliefs as you.

 RUSSIA is making it about itself by interfering in the politics and compromising the territorial integrity of a sovereign nation (Ukraine). If they would keep their fat fingers out of Ukraine's territory, there's be a LOT less condemnation.

 That's a sad thing, but there's little anyone can do when the government of a nation is doing things like Russia is doing. So boycotts are levied against the nation and the people suffer. If there was some way to make the  government officials personally suffer the consequences, it would be done, but instead the entire country has to suffer.  And honestly, it's going to stay that way for a long long time. The leaders are insulated from the immediate consequences of their actions and it's the population and economy that suffers.

 And to be further honest, using the 'threat' of Russian arms and ammunition (you mentioned nuclear warheads) being smuggled out and sold to people like ISIS isn't a reason not to take diplomatic/economic actions against Russia. If we could punish just the government, you can bet it would be punished, but again, it cannot be separated out from the rest of the nation, so they suffer.

  It's sad that ethnic Russians are being viewed with suspicion, but it's also kind of understandable why because the western nations (governments and populations) do -not- see what Russia is doing  a Good Thing, but instead is doing a Bad Thing in regards to Ukraine.

 

Offline Iniquitous

Re: Ukraine
« Reply #604 on: September 04, 2014, 12:31:45 PM »
So they are making a stand with the Ukrainian government, against Russia. Fine. You confirmed my point. This isn't about eastern Ukraine. This is about Russia. Thank you for confirming what I have been saying all along.

Boy you are really good at ignoring what is being said and chirping the same old tune over and over and over ad nauseum. No. This is not to destroy Russia. This is to get your boy Putin to back the hell out of Ukraine and to take his troops and arms with him. He does NOT belong there. It is not his country, he does not have a say in that country and he is invading - which is, in and of itself, a declaration of war. The Ukrainian government has asked for help - NATO has responded with a "training exercise" to show that they are behind the Ukrainian government in this matter - which is, after all, the victim in this situation. Now, if you cannot accept that, then perhaps you shouldn't be in this thread trying to convince everyone that Putin and Russia is the fluffy white lamb of peace and this is all the Ukrainian government's fault when we ALL see the news that clearly shows Russia invading, Russia providing weapons and troops - and please, let's not forget Russia arming the rebels and half ass training them so that they ended up killing TWO HUNDRED AND NINETY EIGHT PEOPLE that were not involved in any way, shape or form.

Yes, Russia gets the blame for all of this. Why? Because they ARE, without a doubt, destabilizing Ukraine for it's own purpose. Read that again please. Destabilizing Ukraine for it's own purpose. It's own purpose. This is not to protect ethnic Russians - I've now said this several times. You cannot refute this so you keep claiming it is true when even you know it's not. This is, quite simply, a land grab. They succeeded with taking Crimea and no one stopped them so now he's doing it again to get the southeastern part of Ukraine. If he's not stopped now, he'll keep going till he has all of Ukraine.

And again - it doesn't matter if Ukraine use to be a part of Russia. It is NOT part of Russia now. It is it's own sovereign nation and thus - Russia is declaring war on that nation by invading it and arming the terrorists that are attacking their own country. And yes - they are terrorists.

Quote
My father has lost his work, because of this whole boycot Russia stuff. An oil field exploitation has been cancelled, costing BP a few billion pounds. To be honest I don't give a rat's behind about BP but I do care about my family. Dad was going to manage that whole cooperation, now he's without a job. Destroying the Russian government will plunge Russia into chaos, innocent Russians get caught by this and let's not forget all the Russian military material like airplanes, guns and bombs that are out of reach of anybody and will end up on the black market, possibly at ISIS and before you know it, there's a nuclear bomb smuggled to ISIS who decided to aim it at New York and London.

Not to mention the misery the Russian people are having to suffer already.

Even Russians living in London get dirty looks the moment the natives find out you are Russian. Yes it happens.

I've already explained Ukraine's history before, not going to bother doing it again. Definately not to somebody who's showing as little respect to me, my country and my beliefs as you.

You want to know why sanctions sometimes work? Because it hurts the people of the country and if it hurts enough, they rise up against their government. If a government truly cares about it's population, they will not allow their citizens to suffer and will cease whatever activity they are doing that earned them sanctions. Obviously, Russia doesn't give two shits about it's people if it is willing to let them suffer just so it can try and gobble up Ukraine.

Want to know why you get dirty looks in London? Because you proudly endorse the Russian propaganda machine. You refuse to accept that Putin and the Russian government are wrong and that the West is not out to destroy Russia but to stabilize the area. Maybe if you stopped insisting that the world is out to get Russia and toting the propaganda of the Russian government you'd stop getting those looks and people would stop shunning. Just sayin'.

Yes, I have no respect for your country. It is being a bully, it is trying to annex a sovereign country that does not want to be part of it, it has armed terrorists (not just in Ukraine!) and killed thousands of innocent people (more like millions if I really wanted to go through it's history). The government is more interested in trying to be the big bad wolf that makes everyone kau tau to it that it doesn't care about it's own people or the people anywhere else. Have your Russian pride by all means - but you have got to start opening your eyes and admitting when your boy Putin and his government are wrong. Blind patriotism is bad.

And I addressed the issue about Ukraine's history already. Just because it once was does not mean Russia has carte blanche to just waltz back in and take it on some thin veil of "oh some of the people there are technically Russian and we have to protect them". We all know that is a lie.
« Last Edit: September 04, 2014, 12:33:17 PM by Iniquitous Opheliac »

Online BlytheTopic starter

Re: Ukraine
« Reply #605 on: September 04, 2014, 12:39:08 PM »
From the OP--locking thread, as I am not interested in continuing the topic any longer.