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Author Topic: Ukraine  (Read 13740 times)

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Offline Scribbles

Re: Ukraine
« Reply #575 on: September 03, 2014, 03:00:15 PM »
Deploying two hundred American troops intro the Ukraine, whether part of a regular exercise or not, isn't exactly sending the best signal. I can't believe this couldn't have been delayed for a better time...

Nods, but this time they don't even want to admit it's already started sometime ago. ^_^

Haha, I can just see some random NATO or Russian soldier now, "These artillery shells aren't bombardments, they're missed warning shots!"

Unless you can convince your population that "the other side" left you no other choice.


True, I believe it usually takes a pretty significant event though and even then, the country needs to act fast before tempers cool...

Offline lovelylilT

Re: Ukraine
« Reply #576 on: September 03, 2014, 03:11:07 PM »
Haha, I can just see some random NATO or Russian soldier now, "These artillery shells aren't bombardments, they're missed warning shots!"
 

Separatists and Ukraine army does that already. It's not funny.

Offline Question Mark

Re: Ukraine
« Reply #577 on: September 03, 2014, 03:35:09 PM »
Im not defending Putin, I'm condemning the actions the EU, US, NATO and everybody are taking towards Russia and NOT towards the seperatists or the Ukrainian army, shelling civilian buldings.

As lilT said, the army is shelling and destroying buildings just as much as the rebels do. The rebels and Russia get the blame but the Ukrainian army are treated as holy. And now the Americans are sending 200 men to train with that exact army.

Did it occur to the US that this action might be seen as an aggressive move?

Alright, I need to break this down a bit.




Im not defending Putin, I'm condemning the actions the EU, US, NATO and everybody are taking towards Russia and NOT towards the seperatists or the Ukrainian army, shelling civilian buldings.

You're doing the same thing many of the people in this thread are: denouncing one side while looking the other way and making excuses for the other.  While some say the rebels and Putin are at fault and make excuses for Washington and Kiev, you do the opposite.  Same shit, different side.

As lilT said, the army is shelling and destroying buildings just as much as the rebels do. The rebels and Russia get the blame but the Ukrainian army are treated as holy.

No one's treating the Ukrainian army as "holy".  You're exaggerating and loading the statement, as well as misrepresenting the views of others.  This is a big no-no in discussions

And now the Americans are sending 200 men to train with that exact army.

Did it occur to the US that this action might be seen as an aggressive move?

Of course.  I think it's also a wise move.  It's the majority opinion amongst the world's nations (as judged by the UN and common sense) Putin is acting like a rabid dog, and that applies whether or not you support him.  Even if you appreciate his decisions, you have to at least admit that they're... controversial, let say.  This is a show of strength (however minor) backs up the US' diplomatic opinion.  The US has obviously thrown in with Ukraine, and this seems a logical followup.  There's also the fact that this is a normal regular training exercise, and absolutely does not stand up to the appalling aggression in the eastern Ukraine.




Now, let's see if I can clear things up a bit.  Let's look at some facts.

Fact 1: Putin is supplying arms and logistics to an active rebellion in a sovereign nation.

Fact 2: This is following Putin's forced annexation of Crimea from said nation.

Fact 3: Rebel forces are using excessive violence in their occupation of eastern Ukraine

Fact 4: The loyalist forces are doing the same.

Fact 5: While the EU and the Americans have largely stayed out of it militarily (minor "training exercises" and aid notwithstanding), they have condemned Putin's actions and supported Ukraine.

Fact 6: Putin has lied repeatedly and deliberately dozens of times, flaunted diplomatic standard, affronted Ukraine's sovereignty, and generally made an ass out of himself in front of the entire world.

Fact 7: I do not doubt the US and Kiev have done the same, but I can't name any specific circumstances.

Both the Ukrainians and the rebels/Russians are bad guys in this mess, largely due to a muddied political history, fallout from the Cold War, diplomatic and military aggression from Russia, and nonappeasement from the West.

These are the FACTS.  We can all agree these are true.  The sooner we stop trying to pin the blame on one side or the other, the sooner we can lay this henpicking to rest.
« Last Edit: September 03, 2014, 03:38:55 PM by Question Mark »

Offline Scribbles

Re: Ukraine
« Reply #578 on: September 03, 2014, 03:57:22 PM »
Separatists and Ukraine army does that already. It's not funny.

War never is funny but I wasn't talking about the separatists versus Ukrainians, I was making light of a war that I hope remains nothing more than a big joke. Seriously, please don't bother chiding me, especially when you downplayed over a hundred deaths at the time to "little fighting and ambushes" when I was condemning the violence. You bragged that "Only winner is Putin", remember?

Offline lovelylilT

Re: Ukraine
« Reply #579 on: September 03, 2014, 04:28:23 PM »
War never is funny but I wasn't talking about the separatists versus Ukrainians, I was making light of a war that I hope remains nothing more than a big joke. Seriously, please don't bother chiding me, especially when you downplayed over a hundred deaths at the time to "little fighting and ambushes" when I was condemning the violence. You bragged that "Only winner is Putin", remember?

I didn't brag. If Putin is only winner, that's very sad thing.

I don't think I explain myself good, I'm sorry.

I shouldn't join this discussion, again, my apologies.

Offline Scribbles

Re: Ukraine
« Reply #580 on: September 03, 2014, 04:37:56 PM »
No, you can stay LovelyLilT, you're closest to the topic at hand and have every right to voice your opinions, I just tend to forget that English isn't your main language and that there may be a bit of a communication gap. It honestly feels as if every time you've joined this conversation it has been to undermine my points but if that isn't the case, then I apologise.

Either way, I hope you and your family stay safe and that this war in Ukraine ends, no matter the outcome.

Offline Zakharra

Re: Ukraine
« Reply #581 on: September 03, 2014, 06:47:33 PM »
So the people of Mexico have every right to come to the US illegally? They are not happy in Mexico so they pack up their belongings and move to the country of their preference. Yet when they get there, they get arrested for being illegal.

Ukraine was a sovereign nation as well. Then it got absorbed into the USSR and now it's a sovereign nation again. Many of the people in the east are Russian or of Russian ancestry but they've lived there for their entire life.

They want to be part again of the nation they used to be part of.

Saying they should pack their stuff and move is a little ignorant Opheliac. Donetsk, Luhansk, all those cities are their HOMES. It's just in the wrong country.

 I and many other Americans have no problem with Mexicans coming to the US, as long as they do it [u[legally[/u]. If they do it illegally, then I have absolutely no issue with them being kicked out. Legal immigration, not illegally.

 So what if there are ethnic Russians in Ukraine, while living in Ukraine they are in a different country. They do not get the right to try and take sections of that country over to Russia just because their ancestors were Russian. Even if they consider those cities/towns their homes, if they want to be a part of Russian, they can move OUT of Ukraine and into Russia. They do not get the right to take sections of the country with them.
Much of Ukraine is part of Russia back to time of tsars. Only in 1990 it becomes own country. Much of Donetsk and Luhansk are Russian for many hundreds of years. And many people there always think themselves Russian, not Ukraine.  Much of those regions have long proud Russian histories, as well as Ukraine.

With "if you don't like it, leave" you make things sounds so simple. They aren't.


 Yes it is that simple. It is a part of Ukraine now. If you're saying that past ownership is a valid reason to invade and annex parts of other countries, then Russia could lose a -large- chunk of its western most areas as they where a part of other countries some time ago. The excuse you are using can and should be used against Russia if you're going to be fair.

Offline consortium11

Re: Ukraine
« Reply #582 on: September 03, 2014, 08:02:55 PM »
Yes it is that simple. It is a part of Ukraine now. If you're saying that past ownership is a valid reason to invade and annex parts of other countries, then Russia could lose a -large- chunk of its western most areas as they where a part of other countries some time ago. The excuse you are using can and should be used against Russia if you're going to be fair.

I believe lovelylilT's point was about why people in the east of Ukraine want at the very least much closer ties with and possibly outright absorption into Russia as opposed to why Russia is doing what it is. Moreover, it's the context she mentioned of Scotland's upcoming referendum on leaving the United Kingdom and the seeming lack of logic as to why Scotland has a right to do that but the Luhansk and Donetsk regions don't.

The idea of a Ukrainian nation is somewhat of a complex one as the political state of Ukraine that we see today (well, that we saw a couple of years back at least) is largely a construct of mid-20th century politics. For the vast majority of its history what we know as Ukraine now simply didn't exist... it was a disputed border between the Grand Duchy of Lithuania, Poland, Ottoman Empire, Crimean Khanate, independent cossacks and Muscovy (which became Russia). The Cossack Hetmanate/Zaporizhian Host is probably the closest thing there is to a precursor state for the modern Ukraine... and they didn't control what became Luhansk or Donetsk. That area was virtually unpopulated for a while due to slave raids (the so called Wild Fields) and only really grew when it became part of Russia and eventually the USSR. In that regard the Ukraine isn't entirely dissimilar to Yugoslavia... a huge mix of national identities, cultures and histories with 20th century borders imposed on them.

I think it's also worth remembering in this that neither side exactly has a strong claim to legitimacy here. The people now in power in Kiev gained that through the violent overthrow of a democratically elected leader, largely because while he was moving towards closer ties with Russia they wanted closer ties with the EU. That's not entirely dissimilar to what we're seeing the separatists in Luhansk and Donetsk do, even if they are receiving more direct assistance from Russia then the Euromaiden protests got from the West (which from what we know at this point was limited to large amounts of money and coordinators/advisers)

Offline ShadowFox89

Re: Ukraine
« Reply #583 on: September 03, 2014, 10:40:29 PM »
I didn't mean to get personal. Just find it an extremely provocative move by the American government. I do apologize for the language and if I got personal. Obviously I didn't mean to.

 Of course, nothing wrong with conducting war games three times in a row right across the border...

Online TheGlyphstone

Re: Ukraine
« Reply #584 on: September 03, 2014, 10:45:46 PM »
Wait - American troops in a token detachment to show solidarity with Ukraine is provocative, but Russian military formations (with or without insignia) invading Ukrainian sovereign territory isn't? ???

Offline ShadowFox89

Re: Ukraine
« Reply #585 on: September 04, 2014, 12:06:11 AM »
 Why would it? Russia has every right to be in Ukraine, just like if the US wanted to take Quebec no one would complain..... Right?

Offline Iniquitous

Re: Ukraine
« Reply #586 on: September 04, 2014, 12:08:46 AM »
I think it would be a better analogy if you said Ontario since we share a border with that province

Online TheGlyphstone

Re: Ukraine
« Reply #587 on: September 04, 2014, 12:15:51 AM »
Why would it? Russia has every right to be in Ukraine, just like if the US wanted to take Quebec no one would complain..... Right?

From what I understand, Canada wouldn't complain at all. ;D

Offline ShadowFox89

Re: Ukraine
« Reply #588 on: September 04, 2014, 12:43:35 AM »
I think it would be a better analogy if you said Ontario since we share a border with that province

 But from what I hear from my Canadian friends, no one likes Quebec.

Online Dashenka

Re: Ukraine
« Reply #589 on: September 04, 2014, 02:32:08 AM »
Okay I feel I have to explain something.

I do NOT agree with Putin. I never did. However, I do understand where he's coming from and where those seperatists are coming from. Understanding why and agreeing with are two different things entirely.

What I don't understand is the reaction from 'the West' and in particular in not defusing the situation. When Russia was having troops on excersize near the Ukranian border, the whole world saw it as a sign of aggression. Now the US is sending 200 men to train with the Ukrainian army and suddenly it's just an excercise? However true or false that might be, it's doing NOTHING to defuse an already volatile situation.

Leads me back to my previous point where I said that the West isn't after helping Ukraine. They're only after destroying Russia. This only got worse when Ukrainian seperatists shot down a plane. Not something Russia is responsible for at all yet everybody holds Russia and Putin responsible for that plane crash, simply because it was shot down by Russian weaponry.

Give me one good reason, with the above mentioned military training example in mind, what the West has done to help Ukraine and defuse the situation entirely.

I feel the west is playing the 'I can do everything that you do, only better' game. Which has stopped being fun for everybody in first grade. It's macho behaviour between Russia and the West. This has never been about Ukraine or helping the 350.000 people that have left their homes and fled the violence. One of which is among us.

So no I don't agree with what Putin's doing but I wouldn't have expected less from him. I would have expected a lot more restrain and tact from the EU and the US.

Offline Dice

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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #590 on: September 04, 2014, 02:41:20 AM »
Leads me back to my previous point where I said that the West isn't after helping Ukraine. They're only after destroying Russia. This only got worse when Ukrainian seperatists shot down a plane. Not something Russia is responsible for at all yet everybody holds Russia and Putin responsible for that plane crash, simply because it was shot down by Russian weaponry.
That was supplied by Russia and the men where trained (poorly) by Russia to use it. The deal is, if Russia had not been handing over weapons and destabilising a region, it never would have happened. Russia in that regard, deserved everything they got. The armed and badly trained a trigger happy man whom then fucked up only because Russia gave him the ability to do so.

In this case, like it or not, the blame landed where it belonged.

Online Dashenka

Re: Ukraine
« Reply #591 on: September 04, 2014, 02:46:43 AM »
So if anybody, anywhere in the world gets murdered with a gun made in the US, America is to blame? Cause if they didn't ship those weapons out, the person would still be alive.

Russian military have better equipment to seperate a small Antonov propellor plane from a massive boeing 777.

Offline Dice

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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #592 on: September 04, 2014, 03:29:47 AM »
If someone makes a gun and sells it, then someone else gets killed with it, then yes, from my point of view you shoulder some of the blame for supplying that gun.

But that is not what we are talking about here. What we are talking about is me teaching you very poorly and quickly how to use the gun, then sending you hunting with the gun I gave you behind your fathers back, then you shoot him while hunting and kill him. Mostly because you do not know how to use it and should not have had it in the first place. Russia is to blame here. I know that the sun will explode before you admit that Russia might be at fault for anything ever, but in this case I will flat say your wrong if you try and defend them here. Russia gave complex equipment to someone whom should not have had it at all to start with and then shit happened. Sorry, they shoulder the blame for that.

I would like to know if you still see things this way seeing all that has happened of late:

since Russia is behind the separatists, has supplied them with arms, equipment and troops (advisers), clearly wants to annex large parts of Ukrainian territory
These claims get a bit tiresome, Zakharra. There is NO evidence about this whatsoever. You keep banging on about it but as of yet, you or anybody else have given not a single piece of evidence.

Your personal bias is starting to become quite bothersome. I do not want to be seen to attack you personally, so please understand that right now, I am attacking your slanted point of view, not you. I have never meet you and have no personal gripe with you. I also do not think your a fool, but you never question anything. Your the first to jump at us even though shit ends up being proven right in the end. Russia is now more than ever proving they are after a land grab, the "aid" they sent was shit, half or totally empty trucks while they gave tanks to the Rebels? I mean how can you honestly sit there and say that this is all ok? That Russia can do no wrong while point your finger at the "West" and saying that some how makes everything ok. Know what, no nation on earth is an angel, but right now, no other nation on earth is sitting back stoking their Nukes saying "Hay all, look what I got". (NK aside.) I am sorry, you need to question what you see. Remember I am the one here going, "Let them vote, everyone let it be". I am not blindly taking in all this shit I am reading, but you do seam to be blindly taking everything from a single slanted POV and then being quite openly aggressive to everyone whom does not agree with you.

Question:
Why is it right for Russia continue to supply Guns, Tanks, AA and Men to the Rebels? Where is there right to do this? Do not tell me it is to protect anyone, because I know the Ukraine government does not want a fight, so if there was not armed men everywhere, this would have been over weeks ago.  Do not tell me it is to help the people when the "Aid" trucks where either totally empty or half empty. Do not tell me it is to help the people when they are handing over equipment to poorly trained men whom then KILL A WHOLE DAM PLANE FULL OF NON COMBATANTS. Who the fuck are they protecting other than some land bridge to Russia's only Warm water port? Well? This is a land grab, not about protecting anyone. If it was they guns would have lay on the ground long ago. Please tell me, what is right about what is going on here? Oh and do not go "But the Ukraine has a corrupt government" because that did not matter in the past when government where corrupt and working with Russia. (Read Syria) Why is Russia not helping in Syria where the government is killing so many of its own? Come on, hit me with it, where is the morality of this? Because I can not see it. I see lots of blood, bullets and blame, but I see ZERO morality and I sure as hell aint buying that Russia is there only to help.

Online Dashenka

Re: Ukraine
« Reply #593 on: September 04, 2014, 03:43:23 AM »
Question:
Why is it right for Russia continue to supply Guns, Tanks, AA and Men to the Rebels? Where is there right to do this?

Answer:

It isn't. I just explained that. It's not alright. But I do understand. This also isn't about landgrab, it's about freeing people, from Russia's perspective, something I do not expect any of you to understand.

But your point is exactly what I mean. Nobody gives a damn about the people in Ukraine. All they care about is to show off to Russia and show how macho they are. If they really were bothered with the well being of the people in Ukraine, they would have postponed that training with 200 American soldiers. They would have tried to come up with a solution. Yet instead, all they do is boycot, ban and point the finger. That's not really helping is it?

Offline Iniquitous

Re: Ukraine
« Reply #594 on: September 04, 2014, 08:25:24 AM »
Answer:

It isn't. I just explained that. It's not alright. But I do understand. This also isn't about landgrab, it's about freeing people, from Russia's perspective, something I do not expect any of you to understand.

But your point is exactly what I mean. Nobody gives a damn about the people in Ukraine. All they care about is to show off to Russia and show how macho they are. If they really were bothered with the well being of the people in Ukraine, they would have postponed that training with 200 American soldiers. They would have tried to come up with a solution. Yet instead, all they do is boycot, ban and point the finger. That's not really helping is it?

Omg I cannot wait till you have to eat more crow Daskenka. The United States - whether there for a training exercise or not - is trying to make a stand with the Ukrainian government. Why? Because your insane boy Putin there is getting his rocks off by reminding the world that Russia has nukes. You claim the US is fanning the flames here but you don't see us going "Oh yeah?! We got nuclear weapons!!!" Matter of fact, we've pretty much just condemned Russia's continued destabilization of the region and economic sanctions. It's your boy Putin that keeps upping the effing ante like the schoolyard bully he is.

Want my opinion? Treat Russia and Putin like a naughty two year old and bust his ass. Destroy what remains of the Russian government, leave them nothing but sticks and stones to fight with. Then the rest of the world can turn it's attention to ISIS while Russia grows up.

You say this isn't a land grab and yet all of the evidence to support that is in front of your face. You refuse to admit it because, no matter how many times you say it now, your hard on for Putin and Russia shows quite clearly. You'll never truly mean it when you say Russia is in the wrong. "This is about protecting people" Bullshit. If he wanted to protect the ethnic Russians then he'd open his border and tell them "Come home my children" and leave those who want to be in Ukraine alone. If this was about protecting the ethnic Russians he'd not be supplying them weapons and sending them out to fight and die. This is - plain and simple - a land grab (Crimea wasn't enough after all and no one smacked his ass when he did that so of course he is going to try for more - just like a spoiled toddler) cause your boy Putin gets a massive hard on at the thought of recreating the fallen USSR.

As for understanding Russia's perspective? Sure - we understand it quite well. "Let's use these people over here as an excuse to take what we want then lie, lie, lie.... ooops busted. Okay lie some more. Okay that's not working - threaten nuclear weapons cause we need the West to back off so Putin can try and bring back the failed experiment that was the USSR." Mark my words - if he gets what he wants with the Ukraine right now, he'll swallow it whole and then go after Kazakhstan.

Offline Scribbles

Re: Ukraine
« Reply #595 on: September 04, 2014, 08:43:04 AM »
Iniquitous Opheliac,

Let's pretend that war is declared and that NATO stomps Russia, and by some miracle no nuclear weapons go off...

All that will happen is that you'll have another ISIS on your hands, this time a Russian one, except it will be a lot better armed and have a force so large that it will terrorize the world for years to come...

As much as some might detest Russia, we need it to be stable, to be successful; having it collapse will only hurt the world.

This military exercise in the Ukraine is simply fuelling Putin's propaganda machine, it's helping turn more Russians against the West. And while this might surprise some of you, there are many Russians who disagree with Putin's actions. We seriously need those Russians to stay on our side.
« Last Edit: September 04, 2014, 08:48:17 AM by Scribbles »

Offline Iniquitous

Re: Ukraine
« Reply #596 on: September 04, 2014, 09:20:23 AM »
Iniquitous Opheliac,

Let's pretend that war is declared and that NATO stomps Russia, and by some miracle no nuclear weapons go off...

All that will happen is that you'll have another ISIS on your hands, this time a Russian one, except it will be a lot better armed and have a force so large that it will terrorize the world for years to come...

As much as some might detest Russia, we need it to be stable, to be successful; having it collapse will only hurt the world.

This military exercise in the Ukraine is simply fuelling Putin's propaganda machine, it's helping turn more Russians against the West. And while this might surprise some of you, there are many Russians who disagree with Putin's actions. We seriously need those Russians to stay on our side.

So you say "oh the West should do nothing in order to keep those Russians who dislike Putin on our side"? How is that helping end this situation? Are those Russians rising up against Putin? No? Well then that's not helping things. As for another ISIS - Russia is not a radial extremist hot bed ticking time bomb. It's a country that is led by a megalomaniac that needs to be forced out of power.

Offline Dice

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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #597 on: September 04, 2014, 09:38:37 AM »
I do not agree with someone like the US trying to push Putin out of power. One that's not there right and two, he was voted into that position and last I was told, can be voted out by his people. You can not condemn him and then state you want to kill democracy in Russia. I can not agree with that.

Online Dashenka

Re: Ukraine
« Reply #598 on: September 04, 2014, 09:40:29 AM »
Omg I cannot wait till you have to eat more crow Daskenka. The United States - whether there for a training exercise or not - is trying to make a stand with the Ukrainian government. Why? Because your insane boy Putin there is getting his rocks off by reminding the world that Russia has nukes. You claim the US is fanning the flames here but you don't see us going "Oh yeah?! We got nuclear weapons!!!" Matter of fact, we've pretty much just condemned Russia's continued destabilization of the region and economic sanctions. It's your boy Putin that keeps upping the effing ante like the schoolyard bully he is.

So they are making a stand with the Ukrainian government, against Russia. Fine. You confirmed my point. This isn't about eastern Ukraine. This is about Russia. Thank you for confirming what I have been saying all along.

Want my opinion? Treat Russia and Putin like a naughty two year old and bust his ass. Destroy what remains of the Russian government, leave them nothing but sticks and stones to fight with. Then the rest of the world can turn it's attention to ISIS while Russia grows up.

My father has lost his work, because of this whole boycot Russia stuff. An oil field exploitation has been cancelled, costing BP a few billion pounds. To be honest I don't give a rat's behind about BP but I do care about my family. Dad was going to manage that whole cooperation, now he's without a job. Destroying the Russian government will plunge Russia into chaos, innocent Russians get caught by this and let's not forget all the Russian military material like airplanes, guns and bombs that are out of reach of anybody and will end up on the black market, possibly at ISIS and before you know it, there's a nuclear bomb smuggled to ISIS who decided to aim it at New York and London.

Not to mention the misery the Russian people are having to suffer already.

Even Russians living in London get dirty looks the moment the natives find out you are Russian. Yes it happens.

You say this isn't a land grab and yet all of the evidence to support that is in front of your face. You refuse to admit it because, no matter how many times you say it now, your hard on for Putin and Russia shows quite clearly. You'll never truly mean it when you say Russia is in the wrong. "This is about protecting people" Bullshit. If he wanted to protect the ethnic Russians then he'd open his border and tell them "Come home my children" and leave those who want to be in Ukraine alone. If this was about protecting the ethnic Russians he'd not be supplying them weapons and sending them out to fight and die. This is - plain and simple - a land grab (Crimea wasn't enough after all and no one smacked his ass when he did that so of course he is going to try for more - just like a spoiled toddler) cause your boy Putin gets a massive hard on at the thought of recreating the fallen USSR.

As for understanding Russia's perspective? Sure - we understand it quite well. "Let's use these people over here as an excuse to take what we want then lie, lie, lie.... ooops busted. Okay lie some more. Okay that's not working - threaten nuclear weapons cause we need the West to back off so Putin can try and bring back the failed experiment that was the USSR." Mark my words - if he gets what he wants with the Ukraine right now, he'll swallow it whole and then go after Kazakhstan.

I've already explained Ukraine's history before, not going to bother doing it again. Definately not to somebody who's showing as little respect to me, my country and my beliefs as you.

Offline Scribbles

Re: Ukraine
« Reply #599 on: September 04, 2014, 09:40:47 AM »
Quote
So you say "oh the West should do nothing in order to keep those Russians who dislike Putin on our side"?

No, I didn't say that at all, please calm your temper and stop putting words in my mouth. If the West wants to win, it's going to have to counter Russian propaganda. There's no alternative.

The Russians won't rise up but the fact that we enjoy some support among them is promising and it gives us something to build off of, it might not have an immediate result but it will certainly help in the long run. While it might disappoint some of you, there's no solution for instant gratification in this situation, the sanctions won't even tickle Russia's economy until a few years pass. As for war, that's not going to be an instant reset or anything of the sort, it's simply going to create a far worse problem down the line. Seriously, how many invasions and wars will it take before somebody clicks and says, "Has anyone noticed that we keep making things worse!"

Quote
As for another ISIS - Russia is not a radial extremist hot bed ticking time bomb. It's a country that is led by a megalomaniac that needs to be forced out of power.

Not yet but it's certainly in NATO's power to make it so, especially if you push people to acts of desperation. Should Russia collapse, the people won't sit idly by, history has taught this lesson multiple times and yet we seem doomed to repeat it. If anything the people will try find someone to blame, and then they'll do everything in their power to make that someone pay.
« Last Edit: September 04, 2014, 10:05:41 AM by Scribbles »