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Author Topic: Ukraine  (Read 13731 times)

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Offline Dashenka

Re: Ukraine
« Reply #450 on: July 31, 2014, 09:02:04 AM »
Alsheriam, you, as so many people, only know half of what is and has been going on in Russia and Ukraine. I can't blame you for that because the news in your country probably only brings you one side of the story.

All I'm saying is that what Russia is doing now, America has done before or is still doing (in case of Israel and Gaza). I can't remember hearing this much outrage over any of that.

I already stated here in this very topic that, although I understand, Putin should never have sent forces to Crim. What's happening in the east of Ukraine is the Ukrainian government telling their own people to shut up and get on with their lives. These people wanted a democratic election on more autonomy, instead the interim president of all people, decided to sent in the army. This is the cause of the problem. Everything that happened afterwards is a result of those actions. Russia has had no part in the cause but Russia is listening to the people in the east who want more autonomy and Russia had, on several occasions, warned the EU and the US, to listen to the people in the east of Ukraine. The fact that weapons from Russia are being brought into Ukraine is of course idiotic and shouldn't have happened but again, it's a result of the EU and the US blindly backing up a government that has no problems at all shooting their own people.

This is, very simply put, what's going on. The EU and the US blindly getting involved into stuff they know nothing about, forcing THEIR will upon a country which is basically broken in half, sending billions of dollars to a country at war, without knowing what is going on. I don't agree with most of what Putin's been doing (or not been doing) but everything he did after Crim is a direct result of the actions of the EU and the US. Everybody who denies that, has no idea what they are talking about. It's really as simple as that.

As for the US having shale gas, Norway and the Netherlands have that as well and as consortium said, how do you get gas from America to Europe?
Saying the Russian economy is suffering as a result of the restrictions is a bit premature as well. Days after the first or second set of restrictions put on Russia, Gazprom signed a 400 billion dollar deal with China. In the short term, yes it might be Russia's economy suffering but what happens if Gazprom decide to double the price for gas to Europe? Who's suffering then? I know everybody hates it but the fact of the matter is, most of Europe is completely and utterly depending on Russian gas. This has been proven a few years ago when there was another conflict between Gazprom and Ukraine and Gazprom decided to no longer send gas to Ukraine, who then took it anyway. Countries as Germany, the Netherlands, France, they all had to really dig into their reserves.

Russia is a world power, whether the US and the EU like it or not.

Offline Dice

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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #451 on: July 31, 2014, 09:28:38 AM »
I am more than willing to admit that there is no small amount of shit that the US has done that it should be openly condemned for. (Laos comes to mind) Only a fool will say that the US is an angel. As for there not being outrage over Israel, I do not know what rock your living under, but right now all I am seeing in the news is stores about 16 year old girls on twitter stating they do not know if they will live out the next air strike in Gaza. That does not sound very pro Israel to me. (Also Israel should just stand by the 1947 agreement and pull its dam head in)

Personally, if it where up to me I would just let the Crimea vote, go do their thing and join Russia, (Because why the fuck should they not be giving the option to do so. Its the will of there people and that's what matters here) the Ukraine should just hurry up and go and join the EU, Putin should pull his head out (Something he started to do when he addressed Russia and said "We are not under attack from the west, not matter what the Press would have you believe) and let this all happen peacefully. Everyone else should stop having a hard on for trying to keep the Ukraine as one unit and let this play out. If they don't, we are going to end up with a sudo north south Ireland thing where there is constant tension and fighting until all this shit gets resolved.

This shit stinks, too many fingers in one big ass bread basket. Fuck.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2014, 09:33:42 AM by Dice »

Offline Dashenka

Re: Ukraine
« Reply #452 on: July 31, 2014, 09:34:11 AM »
I am more than willing to admit that there is not small amount of shit that the US has done that it should be openly condemned for. (Laos comes to mind) Only a fool will say that the US is an angel. As for there not being outrage over Israel, I do not know what rock your living under, but right now all I am seeing in the news is stores about 16 year old girls on twitter stating they do not know if they will live out the next air strike in Gaza. That does not sound very pro Israel to me. (Also Israel should just stand by the 1947 agreement and pull its dam head in)

Personally, if it where up to me I would just let the Crimea vote, go do their thing and join Russia, (Because why the fuck should they not be giving the option to do so. Its the will of there people and that's what matters here) the Ukraine should just hurry up and go and join the EU, Putin should pull his head out (Something he started to do when he addressed Russia and said "We are not under attack from the west, not matter what the Press would have you believe) and let this all happen peacefully. Everyone else should stop having a hard on for trying to keep the Ukraine as one unit and let this play out. If they don't, we are going to end up with a sudo north south Ireland thing where there is constant tension and fighting until all this shit gets resolved.

This shit stinks, too many fingers in one big ass bread basket. Fuck.

I meant the politicians in the Israel matter. As for the rest. I completely agree.

Offline Alsheriam

Re: Ukraine
« Reply #453 on: July 31, 2014, 02:33:38 PM »
Alsheriam, you, as so many people, only know half of what is and has been going on in Russia and Ukraine. I can't blame you for that because the news in your country probably only brings you one side of the story.

That's all Russians are capable of resorting to when presented with credible evidence and counter-arguments and I frankly cannot take Russians seriously anymore. You can try and convince me that a Ukrainian Sukhoi was responsible for shooting MH17 down even though its flight ceiling wasn't anywhere near where the 777 was.

And oh, my country (Singapore) has been presenting some wild shit in media where all of it is state-owned because it's so eagerly desperate to maintain trade ties with Russia. The people whom I work with/for have much better access. ;)

Quote
I already stated here in this very topic that, although I understand, Putin should never have sent forces to Crim. What's happening in the east of Ukraine is the Ukrainian government telling their own people to shut up and get on with their lives. These people wanted a democratic election on more autonomy, instead the interim president of all people, decided to sent in the army. This is the cause of the problem. Everything that happened afterwards is a result of those actions. Russia has had no part in the cause but Russia is listening to the people in the east who want more autonomy and Russia had, on several occasions, warned the EU and the US, to listen to the people in the east of Ukraine. The fact that weapons from Russia are being brought into Ukraine is of course idiotic and shouldn't have happened but again, it's a result of the EU and the US blindly backing up a government that has no problems at all shooting their own people.

Oh please. The election results and the electoral process (if you can call it that) was so dodgy and shoddy even third world election commissions in Africa would have rejected them. No free and fair elections should ever happen with armed masked men keeping a sharp eye on polling centers. This is the funniest claim I've heard all day.

Quote
As for the US having shale gas, Norway and the Netherlands have that as well and as consortium said, how do you get gas from America to Europe?
Saying the Russian economy is suffering as a result of the restrictions is a bit premature as well. Days after the first or second set of restrictions put on Russia, Gazprom signed a 400 billion dollar deal with China. In the short term, yes it might be Russia's economy suffering but what happens if Gazprom decide to double the price for gas to Europe? Who's suffering then? I know everybody hates it but the fact of the matter is, most of Europe is completely and utterly depending on Russian gas. This has been proven a few years ago when there was another conflict between Gazprom and Ukraine and Gazprom decided to no longer send gas to Ukraine, who then took it anyway. Countries as Germany, the Netherlands, France, they all had to really dig into their reserves.

We were talking long-term effects, weren't we? The Americans are steadily building up LPG export capacity which are due to be done by 4Q 2015 to 2017, where by that time they will displace the export volume of Qatar and UAE.

Quote
Russia is a world power, whether the US and the EU like it or not.

It is, and used to be quite a respectable one at that. But Putin's shenanigans at ethno-nationalism in Georgia, Moldova and the like has made Russia lose a ton of respect in the eyes of the international community. People were looking for a major power to align themselves with since the Americans have shown their word is not to be trusted, but Putin has been breaking so many treaties and international norms, nobody wants to entrust Russia with the stewardship of anything. Like it or not, Russia is steadily inching itself towards the same pariah state status as Iran's.

Offline Mikem

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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #454 on: July 31, 2014, 06:49:29 PM »
Quote
It is, and used to be quite a respectable one at that. But Putin's shenanigans at ethno-nationalism in Georgia, Moldova and the like has made Russia lose a ton of respect in the eyes of the international community. People were looking for a major power to align themselves with since the Americans have shown their word is not to be trusted, but Putin has been breaking so many treaties and international norms, nobody wants to entrust Russia with the stewardship of anything. Like it or not, Russia is steadily inching itself towards the same pariah state status as Iran's.

It's actually a little funny. A long while ago I had actually believed Russia had climbed out of it's shadow to be a respectable friend in the modern world. I even defended it a few times to family members/friends who were "stuck" in the old way of believing Russia to be a genuine enemy of America. Then all this crap starts happening and I don't know anymore.

Pretty soon England, France, and Germany are gonna do some evil shit too for some reason and no one will know who's friend anymore.

Offline Alsheriam

Re: Ukraine
« Reply #455 on: July 31, 2014, 06:59:05 PM »
It's actually a little funny. A long while ago I had actually believed Russia had climbed out of it's shadow to be a respectable friend in the modern world. I even defended it a few times to family members/friends who were "stuck" in the old way of believing Russia to be a genuine enemy of America. Then all this crap starts happening and I don't know anymore.

Pretty soon England, France, and Germany are gonna do some evil shit too for some reason and no one will know who's friend anymore.

Welcome to the multipolar world of the 21st century. For a better understanding of this new world, I recommend The End of Power. http://www.amazon.com/The-End-Power-Boardrooms-Battlefields/dp/0465065694/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1406851102&sr=8-2&keywords=decay+of+power

Offline Dice

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Offline Alsheriam


Offline Dashenka

Re: Ukraine
« Reply #458 on: August 01, 2014, 03:33:47 AM »
That's all Russians are capable of resorting to when presented with credible evidence and counter-arguments and I frankly cannot take Russians seriously anymore.

Since you won't take me seriously anymore, I'll refrain from commenting on your (in my opinion) rather delusional point of views.

As for the rest, Putin was elected by the Russians, for the Russians. He and the Russians don't care what the world thinks of him, that's not his job. Americans wouldn't understand cause their president is chosen as ruler of the world and the EU leaders have no power at all even in their own nations. So it might be a little alien concept that a countries president, is chosen to actually lead that country.

Now if you don't mind, I got some sun to catch here in Bali.

Offline Alsheriam

Re: Ukraine
« Reply #459 on: August 01, 2014, 03:43:02 AM »
Since you won't take me seriously anymore, I'll refrain from commenting on your (in my opinion) rather delusional point of views.

As for the rest, Putin was elected by the Russians, for the Russians. He and the Russians don't care what the world thinks of him, that's not his job. Americans wouldn't understand cause their president is chosen as ruler of the world and the EU leaders have no power at all even in their own nations. So it might be a little alien concept that a countries president, is chosen to actually lead that country.

Now if you don't mind, I got some sun to catch here in Bali.


Online Oreo

Re: Ukraine
« Reply #460 on: August 01, 2014, 04:02:07 AM »
Cooldown Time.

Online Oreo

Re: Ukraine
« Reply #461 on: August 15, 2014, 04:25:24 AM »
Unlocked, but keep in mind that this is a hot topic. Please, do your best to keep posts civil and on point.

Thank you,
~Oreo, for the staff.

Offline Dashenka

Re: Ukraine
« Reply #462 on: August 23, 2014, 06:34:11 AM »
So Russia's sending huminatiarian aid now to the people in the east of Ukraine, something no other country deemed necessary and NATO, Obama, Merkel and God knows who else get angry.

Right.

 :-\


Offline Dice

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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #463 on: August 23, 2014, 08:17:33 AM »
"I broke into your house and fed your cat, sorry I also gave your kids waterpistols filled with oil based paint to use in the house too. Hope you do not mind."

"You are unhappy I broke into your house? But why? I feed your cat why did you call the cops?"

Offline Dashenka

Re: Ukraine
« Reply #464 on: August 23, 2014, 08:21:27 AM »
Oh has it been proven there's been guns on those trucks? I missed that. Show me where it says that.

Offline Dice

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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #465 on: August 23, 2014, 08:31:24 AM »
Not in the trucks, that would be a few days ago when the British took photos of Military vehicles crossing the boarder. See, I armed your kids AND fed your cat. See how nice i am and have such valid reasons for breaking into your home. Your cat needs saving because the kids are fighting a war I am arming, but at lest I am feeding them for you.

Offline Dashenka

Re: Ukraine
« Reply #466 on: August 23, 2014, 08:33:10 AM »
Right.

Offline Dice

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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #467 on: August 23, 2014, 08:40:12 AM »
Here you go: http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/aug/14/russian-military-vehicles-enter-ukraine-aid-convoy-stops-short-border

My fav one is this one, where the leader of the rebels says that they are getting reinforcements from across the boarder: http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/08/16/us-ukraine-crisis-idUSKBN0GF13120140816

Oh and as for aid, the trucks where mostly empty: http://euroradio.by/en/russian-humanitarian-aid-trucks-are-half-empty-photo

Begs the question, what the hell is the point to do this other that swing your ego around if your the RU?

Offline Dashenka

Re: Ukraine
« Reply #468 on: August 23, 2014, 09:58:26 AM »
Whoever started fighting is irrelevant. Cities and villages in the east of Ukraine need help. Nobody is giving them help but instead they pick up the pieces of the airplane and leave again. Russia is sending help. I can't see how anybody would find that a bad thing.

Offline Question Mark

Re: Ukraine
« Reply #469 on: August 23, 2014, 10:05:35 AM »
Whoever started fighting is irrelevant. Cities and villages in the east of Ukraine need help. Nobody is giving them help but instead they pick up the pieces of the airplane and leave again. Russia is sending help. I can't see how anybody would find that a bad thing.

On one hand, I'm inclined to agree with Dashenka here.  War is fucking stupid, civil war more so, and the people unfortunate enough to be trapped in the middle need help.

On the other hand, this is a rather obvious publicity stunt by Russia.  They obviously don't have Ukranian best interests in mind, as given by the meager payload of the convoy.  This is more about winning hearts and souls to their side, with a big helping of "fuck you" to the Ukranian government

Offline Dice

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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #470 on: August 23, 2014, 10:31:01 AM »
Whoever started fighting is irrelevant.
I disagree. Very much so. It matters who starts something because it means that the person whom is defending themselves is in the right to say "Hay, I did not start this shit, you did, now pull your dam head in."

Cities and villages in the east of Ukraine need help. Nobody is giving them help but instead they pick up the pieces of the airplane and leave again.
War is sad, maybe starting one is not in everyone's best interest. I do not want to sound like a dick (I have said before I think that a vote should have gone ahead and I stand by that) but if you start a war, war will shit on you.

Russia is sending help. I can't see how anybody would find that a bad thing.
I am not saying it is a bad thing, the Ukraine said "Please hand your aid to the Red Cross and we will get out of the way." If that had of happened here I would have ZERO issues with the situation. Instead that is not what happened and the RU waves its cock around making the situation worse. They also simultaneously ARMED the rebels. Might be an issue with that...

What we need is the RU to stop fighting in this war, (and they are, lets not kid ourselves here) the Ukraine to move back, let international monitors organise a vote and just deal with whatever the outcome is. Then after that, lots of people need to take a breath, some need to go to gaol, then we all get to move on without this shit flaring up again. But the simplest answer is not always the one everyone wants to take now is it?

Offline Dashenka

Re: Ukraine
« Reply #471 on: August 23, 2014, 10:40:16 AM »

... let international monitors organise a vote and just deal with whatever the outcome is.

Yes.. like they did for Gaza? Yes let's listen to what international monitors do and organize, cause that's VERY reassuring. Fact of the matter is, your international monitors don't give a flying fuck about Ukraine. All they care about is piss of Russia and when they've pissed off Russia enough and Russia strikes back, they have a reason to say: "See! I told you so! Those Russians are bad people!"

Offline Zakharra

Re: Ukraine
« Reply #472 on: August 23, 2014, 11:06:31 AM »
Yes.. like they did for Gaza? Yes let's listen to what international monitors do and organize, cause that's VERY reassuring. Fact of the matter is, your international monitors don't give a flying fuck about Ukraine. All they care about is piss of Russia and when they've pissed off Russia enough and Russia strikes back, they have a reason to say: "See! I told you so! Those Russians are bad people!"

  I think what he's saying is for all international sides to back off (including supplying any rebels), establish peace and have an open vote under international monitors, without armed foreign soldiers at the polling station, then when the vote is verified to be a free and open vote, then the nations involved accept the outcome. Even if they don't like it. If Russia ends up being mad at the result, that's their problem and they shouldn't take it out on Ukraine by meddling militarily in their affairs. Now before you say I am biased, I am applying this to everyone. If the vote makes Ukraine, or the EU and USA mad, then they should back off and stay out of it too. Accept the vote, but only if it is verified to be a free and open one.  Any meddling by any outside forces should get that nation shut out. Russia, EU or American.

Offline Dashenka

Re: Ukraine
« Reply #473 on: August 23, 2014, 11:14:58 AM »
There's already been a vote. Actually there's been two. The result? The Ukrainian government shooting their own people for wanting to be part of Russia. Porochenko and that Yatsenyuk cannot keep Ukraine together and they know it so they'll do desperate actions.

Even when there will be peace, Donetsk, Luhansk, all those cities and regions STILL want to be part of Russia, not Ukraine.

Offline Dice

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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #474 on: August 23, 2014, 11:21:07 AM »
There has been no vote I would call free and fair. I am not saying that I think under free and fair voting that the outcome of that vote would be different (I don't) but at this point, I have only seen politics on both sides so I would not accept that vote as anything remotely fair. As for not keeping the Ukraine together, they are winning. This is why the RU is now more overt with its support. Because the Rebels are losing. Little by little they are losing. If it goes this way, I honestly think the outcome will be a kind of Mirror of the troubled years in Ireland. Without more direct involvement from RU, the rebels will not win. That's not even a debate. But without that free, fair and open vote, the Ukraine will wish they had of. Because this will be a sore spot for years.