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Author Topic: Ukraine  (Read 13760 times)

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Offline Zakharra

Re: Ukraine
« Reply #425 on: July 19, 2014, 10:59:09 AM »
These claims get a bit tiresome, Zakharra. There is NO evidence about this whatsoever. You keep banging on about it but as of yet, you or anybody else have given not a single piece of evidence.

I agree that obviously a neutral party would be the best option, no doubt, but the rebels simply wouldn't allow any of those parties in. Not the Dutch and especially not the UN. They would allow Russian soldiers in and if that helps the investigation. If they have Putin's word that the soldiers leave after the investigation (and he has NO reason to keep them there) what is against it?

 Because Russia is the one that wants to carve up Ukraine. They already got  the Crimea, and want the rest of the southern portion and are using much the same language to justify going in there as they used in the Crimean incident.   You say Russia should be trusted, why?  Why should Russia be trusted over investigators such as the US FBI/CIA, Europe's Interpol? They have good experience in forensics and such. But I can guess you would not want/like them doing the investigation because you think they aren't trustworthy, yes? If so, the same suspicion falls on Russia too. Hard. Right now the Ukrainian government has little reason to trust Russia or Putin's word when they have been caught and admit to lying ('There were no Russian troops or special forces in the Crimean before the vote.' Later it was; 'Fooled you! They were there all the time! Suckers.' So there's little reason the Ukrainian government has to believe Russia won't stay to protect the Russian population in the eastern areas' (which Putin has said Russia has the right to do), or to help stop the violence.

 The problem was is that that same excuse was more or less used in 1939 by the Soviets in Poland. What's to say that the Russian government won't use the claim of the need to protect Russians in the eastern Ukraine to justify its politics there and because they were asked by the people there (separatists)  to help protect them. That's why they were in the Crimea area, yes?  To protect the ethnic Russians and the people there asked for their help.

 As for links supporting what I am claiming, there aren't any that you would accept. I could likely dig up half a dozen or so within an hour or so, but you're on record saying that you find all Western media  biased and isn't to be trusted. The only links links you have more or less accepted are from the media in Russia. Which is pretty much toeing the Russian line. It's really hard when you say you only accept these small number of media outlets as good and reliable and discount everything else. You've done that with all US and European media.
 
So I have an honest question, what news sources outside of Russia do you consider fair and balanced and not biased?
« Last Edit: July 19, 2014, 11:22:38 AM by Zakharra »

Offline Oniya

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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #426 on: July 19, 2014, 11:40:06 AM »
Posting links would be helpful to the rest of us, Zakharra.

Offline Zakharra

Re: Ukraine
« Reply #427 on: July 19, 2014, 11:55:47 AM »
  I'll try and look for some after finishing haying. My google-fu isn't the best so please bear with me when I do post the links.

Offline gaggedLouise

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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #428 on: July 19, 2014, 12:18:13 PM »
I would bet money Abbott would send a force of asked. There are options.

Do you mean Australian OSCE observers/engineers or - an armed Aussie intervention?

Offline Callie Del Noire

Re: Ukraine
« Reply #429 on: July 19, 2014, 03:26:06 PM »
http://globalvoicesonline.org/2014/07/18/russia-ukraine-mh17-wikipedia/

Okay.. this isn't a dig at JUST Russian state media.. both sides are taking shots. I think it's amusing that folks can be so petty.. till I'm saddened about the fact they these little petty people are trying to play the blame game over 300 innocent lives.

Then I get angry that both sides are using this as a way to give digs to the other side

Offline Dice

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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #430 on: July 19, 2014, 04:03:57 PM »
Do you mean Australian OSCE observers/engineers or - an armed Aussie intervention?
With Abbott, I would bet a bit of both. The language he has been using is more direct than almost anything I have seen him use on domestic policy.

As for needing Proof that Russia was involved with the separatist, other than the man that people report to allegedly being an agent of Russia, the thing that stands out to me is how all the trucks that brought in all the early soldiers had Russian plates. Oh and a jet shot down one of the Ukraine's own fighters last week from what I have seen, so yea, there is that too. Also now there is reports that the launcher used in the attack was taken across the boarder soon after the attack took place.

Dashenka, I know your allegiance lies with Russia, but in this case, I think you just have to admit that Russia is involved in this armed moment. Let's be honest, there is zero reason for them to stay out of it (Until this point) and much to gain from it. In that logic alone I would be suspicious. Add on the little things (mostly to me the number plates on all the trucks that the armed forces there are using) and it all just fits too comfortably for me to think that they are not involved.

If this was happening in Mexico, you tell me you would not swear the CIA was involved. I don't see any reason to think this is any different with the KGB.

Offline ladia2287

Re: Ukraine
« Reply #431 on: July 19, 2014, 06:22:51 PM »
With Abbott, I would bet a bit of both. The language he has been using is more direct than almost anything I have seen him use on domestic policy.

As for needing Proof that Russia was involved with the separatist, other than the man that people report to allegedly being an agent of Russia, the thing that stands out to me is how all the trucks that brought in all the early soldiers had Russian plates. Oh and a jet shot down one of the Ukraine's own fighters last week from what I have seen, so yea, there is that too. Also now there is reports that the launcher used in the attack was taken across the boarder soon after the attack took place.

Dashenka, I know your allegiance lies with Russia, but in this case, I think you just have to admit that Russia is involved in this armed moment. Let's be honest, there is zero reason for them to stay out of it (Until this point) and much to gain from it. In that logic alone I would be suspicious. Add on the little things (mostly to me the number plates on all the trucks that the armed forces there are using) and it all just fits too comfortably for me to think that they are not involved.

If this was happening in Mexico, you tell me you would not swear the CIA was involved. I don't see any reason to think this is any different with the KGB.

As much as I'm sure Abbott would love to get us stuck in this mess, I daresay this would be an empty threat. Our forces are already spread way too thin with all the conflict in the Middle East. I just don't think we can afford to get involved. As for Abbott's threat to ban Putin from the G20 summit, he has about as much ability to do this as I do.

Offline Chris Brady

Re: Ukraine
« Reply #432 on: July 19, 2014, 06:29:34 PM »
The investigation is going to be neutral and thorough and if the person responsible can be found, they will be brought to justice. I'm confident of that. That's what I meant with 'well'
Not if it's done by Russia, I'm sorry to say.  Their history has not been entirely spotless, and especially of late.

Offline Passion and Desire

Re: Ukraine
« Reply #433 on: July 19, 2014, 06:36:42 PM »
Not if it's done by Russia, I'm sorry to say.  Their history has not been entirely spotless, and especially of late.
And you think any "help" by the USA would be any more neutral or thorough?

Offline Oniya

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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #434 on: July 19, 2014, 08:10:04 PM »
A multi-national team would be the ideal situation.

Offline Passion and Desire

Re: Ukraine
« Reply #435 on: July 19, 2014, 08:34:56 PM »
A multi-national team would be the ideal situation.
Agreed, as long as it's not the same guys that found the WMD in Iraq. ;)
« Last Edit: July 20, 2014, 03:20:39 AM by Passion and Desire »

Offline Neysha


Online Dashenka

Re: Ukraine
« Reply #437 on: July 20, 2014, 03:33:37 AM »
RT reporter has the integrity to resign over their coverage in regards to the MH17 shootdown.

Although I agree, I wonder why CNN reporters never do that when CNN brings poor coverage. I don't like RT but they are no better or worse than CNN in my opinion :)

Offline TheGlyphstone

Re: Ukraine
« Reply #438 on: July 20, 2014, 05:23:06 AM »
Although I agree, I wonder why CNN reporters never do that when CNN brings poor coverage. I don't like RT but they are no better or worse than CNN in my opinion :)

Probably because their slant originates from different directions. RT is a nationalistic-oriented news/ internal propaganda organ, in a country with a strong historical legacy of top-down direction of content. CNN and its polar counterpart Fox News have a nationalistic slant, but only as a secondary bias - their primary bias is their purpose as an ideological propaganda organ for the liberal and conservative US viewing populations respectively. Rather than get their funds and advertisement by toeing a government line, they profit by telling the news that their respective viewers want to hear (and in a way they want to hear it). The sort of people who want to work for CNN or Fox in the first place are the people who already agree with what they see on the channel, and if they survive the resultant work environment, are more likely to actually believe what they're reporting...combining the worst aspects of a religion with a job, effectively. Dissenters don't need to resign in public protest, they can just move to a media provider that aligns more closely with their political perspective.
« Last Edit: July 20, 2014, 05:26:36 AM by TheGlyphstone »

Online Dashenka

Re: Ukraine
« Reply #439 on: July 25, 2014, 07:19:17 AM »
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/mh17-crash-russian-newspaper-novaya-gazeta-prints-frontpage-asking-netherlands-for-forgiveness-9628474.html

Not sure about their motives but it's a beautiful gesture I guess :)

Feeling sort of proud that I've worked for that newspaper.

Offline Dice

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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #440 on: July 25, 2014, 08:14:40 AM »
I think the motives stem from the mounting evidence that the plane was shot down by weapons given to the people in question by the RU and that the person operating them was likely trained in haste to use them. So while no one is pointing the blame directly at the RU (indirectly though but that's another story) a lot of people there are starting to feel the gravity of the situation and are feeling guilt at the actions partaken in by their government. They have come to the understanding that the powers that be will play politics on this so they are going to do there part to show that while there is this power play going on, not everyone is involved in it and many feel the pain that is understandable in this situation.

Human empathy, shining though in a dark time. It is quite touching.

Online Dashenka

Re: Ukraine
« Reply #441 on: July 25, 2014, 09:36:54 AM »
I guess that's true but it also shows that some of the leading newspapers in Russia are actually not 'supporting' or funded by the government.

Novaya Gazeta is a very good and neutral newspaper with growing popularity across the nation. The whole propaganda issue is true with newspapers like Pravda and Russia Today. The bigger newspapers are pretty neutral, NG leading the pack.

Offline TheGlyphstone

Re: Ukraine
« Reply #442 on: July 25, 2014, 12:35:31 PM »
Which takes on an additional level when you consider that their leading journalists have a mysterious habit of ending up murdered by persons unknown. That takes a certain level of intentional bravery you're a lot less likely to find in mainstream American press.
« Last Edit: July 25, 2014, 12:36:41 PM by TheGlyphstone »

Offline Callie Del Noire

Re: Ukraine
« Reply #443 on: July 25, 2014, 05:41:21 PM »
Well the Russians are shelling from across the border and sending artillery across the border for the separatists.

So much for my hope that Putin could be a stabilizing element
http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/ukranian-officials-accuse-rebel-militias-of-moving-bodies-tampering-with-evidence/2014/07/19/bef07204-0f1c-11e4-b8e5-d0de80767fc2_story.html

Offline Alsheriam

Re: Ukraine
« Reply #444 on: July 31, 2014, 01:36:37 AM »
My analysis is that it was the rebels who pushed the button, but this does not mean that the Russians were not directly involved.

I have a buddy in the Air Defense Artillery. His experience indicated that vehicles and weapon systems like the SA-11 Gadfly (or 9k37 Buk as the Russians call it) are not "plug and play" kind of weapons. Even if you can find a training manual online (http://blogs.reuters.com/great-debate/2014/07/30/need-to-fire-a-buk-missile-look-online/) you can't do it by reading the manual alone. You will need at least 10 weeks of training to even grasp the bare basics, and more months of on the job training to ensure you know what you're doing.

What does this mean? It's likely the rebels received that 10 weeks of basic technical training, but they could not have hoped to even hit something without the direct supervision of specialized Russian personnel. The rebels were having a whale of a time shooting down easy targets like an outdated and under-maintained fighter jet and numerous An-26 transport planes. Want a visual idea in pop culture of what an An-26 is? The An-26 is the model of the plane which Sylvester Stallone flies in The Expendables.

The An-26 is half as large and half as fast as the Boeing 777. This means the radar cross-section represented by the 777 must have resembled the An-26 they were used to shooting, but they could not have accounted for the size difference in radar cross-section.

Why?

In conventional military operations, the SA-11 is usually supported by complementary support systems like dedicated radar in order to give the "shooters" a big and accurate image of the sky. Without those systems, using the SA-11 on its own is like trying to find the lower-half of the moon at night while looking through a straw: you know the moon is there, but you can't really discern what part of the moon you're looking at.

MH17 was therefore shot down because of inexperience and the momentum of excitement thanks to past and most recent successes. The rebels indicted themselves when they boasted on social media about having shot down an Ukrainian military transport plane, just moments after MH17 went down. They immediately deleted the post following the discovery of their mistake.

Online Dashenka

Re: Ukraine
« Reply #445 on: July 31, 2014, 03:40:37 AM »
Yep the seperatists shot the plane down but the Ukrainian army is now bombing/shelling civilian targets in and near Donetsk because they claim there are seperatists there. This is turning into another Israel vs Gaza rapidly, with the whole world condemning it and nobody doing anything.

The shells that hit that block of flats that got hit where three people got injured and one person died? Delivered to Ukraine, by the US, a few weeks ago.

And still all the world is doing yet, is putting the finger to Putin and not solving or helping the situation at all.

Israel's bombing UN shelters in Gaza city killing dozens of mothers with children while they are sleeping. Guess where those bombs come from? But ye... blame Russia at least it keeps attention away from the EU and the US's own failures. Cause after all, what the rest of the world wants is completely irrelevant. The will of the US and the EU is how the whole world should live, because that's the only way.

*shakes head*

I was hoping this stuff wouldn't get to me while on holiday but I guess it does.

Offline Alsheriam

Re: Ukraine
« Reply #446 on: July 31, 2014, 06:41:03 AM »
Yep the seperatists shot the plane down but the Ukrainian army is now bombing/shelling civilian targets in and near Donetsk because they claim there are seperatists there. This is turning into another Israel vs Gaza rapidly, with the whole world condemning it and nobody doing anything.

The shells that hit that block of flats that got hit where three people got injured and one person died? Delivered to Ukraine, by the US, a few weeks ago.

And still all the world is doing yet, is putting the finger to Putin and not solving or helping the situation at all.

The international community has the right to condemn Russia because it blatantly broke the Budapest Memo it signed with Ukraine and the United States on 1994, where both Russia and the US gave blanket guarantees to secure Ukrainian sovereignty in exchange for Ukraine giving up their nukes. US response to Ukraine's borders being sullied so obscenely is tepid at best, and nobody should be surprised about American assistance towards Kiev. The United States is in a very limited way, living up to their end of the treaty.

Quote
Israel's bombing UN shelters in Gaza city killing dozens of mothers with children while they are sleeping. Guess where those bombs come from? But ye... blame Russia at least it keeps attention away from the EU and the US's own failures.


The issue surrounding the modern day apartheid state Israel vs Palestine is another can of worms which ought to be discussed in another thread.

Quote
Cause after all, what the rest of the world wants is completely irrelevant. The will of the US and the EU is how the whole world should live, because that's the only way.

I don't know about you, but Russia's laundry list of grievances have revolved around former Warsaw Pact states behaving like independent states and deciding the fate of their own independent nations. It is Russia which needs to be reminded that just because it used to be able to send divisions of tanks into Hungary (which resented Soviet hegemony), doesn't mean it is still entitled to sending Spetsnaz personnel decked out in the latest in Russian non-export personal equipment and riding in non-export armored vehicles local self-defense militia dudes into sovereign Ukrainian territory (Crimea) several hours after protesters in Kiev managed to topple the pro-Putin government which blatantly ignored the will of the governed.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2014, 06:45:16 AM by Alsheriam »

Online Dashenka

Re: Ukraine
« Reply #447 on: July 31, 2014, 07:09:10 AM »
The international community has the right to condemn Russia because it blatantly broke the Budapest Memo it signed with Ukraine and the United States on 1994, where both Russia and the US gave blanket guarantees to secure Ukrainian sovereignty in exchange for Ukraine giving up their nukes. US response to Ukraine's borders being sullied so obscenely is tepid at best, and nobody should be surprised about American assistance towards Kiev. The United States is in a very limited way, living up to their end of the treaty.
 

The issue surrounding the modern day apartheid state Israel vs Palestine is another can of worms which ought to be discussed in another thread.


I know 'Russia' should be condemned but for that same reason, the US should be condemned because that can of worms you say is different, it isn't. Israel's stealing Palestinian land and then oppress the people living there. The Ukrainian seperatists want to be a sovereign nation as well and what does Ukraine do? Bomb them to hell. But because it's Israel, the US supports them and because it's Russia, the US condemns it. If it was up to Russia and most middle east nations, Tel Aviv would be a distant memory, a city in ruins, for the crimes against humanity they are committing RIGHT NOW. But America and the EU don't care, cause Israel is doing what America and the EU want.


I don't know about you, but Russia's laundry list of grievances have revolved around former Warsaw Pact states behaving like independent states and deciding the fate of their own independent nations. It is Russia which needs to be reminded that just because it used to be able to send divisions of tanks into Hungary (which resented Soviet hegemony), doesn't mean it is still entitled to sending Spetsnaz personnel decked out in the latest in Russian non-export personal equipment and riding in non-export armored vehicles local self-defense militia dudes into sovereign Ukrainian territory (Crimea) several hours after protesters in Kiev managed to topple the pro-Putin government which blatantly ignored the will of the governed.

Yanukovich was democratically elected by the majority of the Ukrainian people. That majority is now standing up to a regime they have no elected for. How democratic is that?

America, with the support of the EU and perhaps even the whole UN put tanks and soldiers on the ground in Yugoslavia, which was a sovereign nation. Then Afghanistan, then Iraq. Then it was decided that Montenegro should be split off from Serbia, which was and still is a sovereign nation. Then, to add to the insult, Kosovo was split off from Serbia as well.

Don't start about the US condemning the interfering in a sovereign nation because they invented it. But obviously when the US does it, it's perfecly fine, because it's what they want and the EU and the UN follow America's lead. Then there is the NSA which is basically spying on the German president and the entire government. How's that for intervering in a soveign nation? What does Germany do? Tell of America and continue with their business. America is (or so they all like to believe) the all powerfull nation and nobody dares to speak up to them. Russia does. Palestinia does. Syria does. Libya did. See a trend here?

So what America wants will somehow be justified and when Russia does it, it's automatically wrong because some people in America and in Europe and in the UN still see Russia as the bad guys.


On a different note.
Russia today said that the price for gas will increase for Europe. Now that's alright for countries like Norway, Netherlands, UK but Germany who's relying for 75% on Russian gas, they will feel it. Not to mention countries like Romania, Croatia, the Baltic States.

It's the short sightedness of the EU and the US that is costing Europe more than it does Russia.

Offline Alsheriam

Re: Ukraine
« Reply #448 on: July 31, 2014, 07:46:57 AM »
I know 'Russia' should be condemned but for that same reason, the US should be condemned because that can of worms you say is different, it isn't. Israel's stealing Palestinian land and then oppress the people living there. The Ukrainian seperatists want to be a sovereign nation as well and what does Ukraine do? Bomb them to hell. But because it's Israel, the US supports them and because it's Russia, the US condemns it. If it was up to Russia and most middle east nations, Tel Aviv would be a distant memory, a city in ruins, for the crimes against humanity they are committing RIGHT NOW. But America and the EU don't care, cause Israel is doing what America and the EU want.

I've often been called an anti-Semite for expressing my own criticism and misgivings about Israel, but I'm confident you deserve that label.

Since you're so insistent on crimes against humanity, listening to your justifications for propping up the Assad regime in Syria should be entertaining at the very least.


Quote
Yanukovich was democratically elected by the majority of the Ukrainian people. That majority is now standing up to a regime they have no elected for. How democratic is that?

As concepts of democracy go, the will of the people is sovereign. There was a significant number of Ukrainians who desired closer European integration, and even though Yanukovich initially said he would sign the association agreement with the EU in exchange for badly-needed economic aid and foreign direct investment, he ignored public sentiment and went with Putin instead.

The people giveth, and the people taketh.

Quote
America, with the support of the EU and perhaps even the whole UN put tanks and soldiers on the ground in Yugoslavia, which was a sovereign nation. Then Afghanistan, then Iraq. Then it was decided that Montenegro should be split off from Serbia, which was and still is a sovereign nation. Then, to add to the insult, Kosovo was split off from Serbia as well.

The former Yugoslavia had to happen because Russia's allies - the Serbs - were perpetrating their own jolly little genocide. Dutch peacekeepers were recently found guilty for negligence at Sebrenica. Whatever happened to Russian concerns for "crimes against humanity"?

Quote
Don't start about the US condemning the interfering in a sovereign nation because they invented it. But obviously when the US does it, it's perfecly fine, because it's what they want and the EU and the UN follow America's lead. Then there is the NSA which is basically spying on the German president and the entire government. How's that for intervering in a soveign nation? What does Germany do? Tell of America and continue with their business. America is (or so they all like to believe) the all powerfull nation and nobody dares to speak up to them. Russia does. Palestinia does. Syria does. Libya did. See a trend here?

The only trend I am objectively seeing here is the desperate desire for Russian geopolitical power to be taken seriously again. Following the collapse of the USSR and the Warsaw Pact, Russia has seen what it considered to be their own backyard (eastern Europe and Baltic states) break away from Russian influence and align themselves with EU and NATO. Russian threats of utter destruction against Finland were also very recently made when Finland was making some interesting statements on wanting to join NATO.

Quote
So what America wants will somehow be justified and when Russia does it, it's automatically wrong because some people in America and in Europe and in the UN still see Russia as the bad guys.

I'm not going to defend past American wrongs, but at least the Americans have a media that has been condemning the previous administration for deceiving the country and the world with false intelligence. Hell, even Fox News turned against Dick Cheney on live television and said right in his face that, "History has proven you wrong time and time again." That nonsense surrounding Iraq 2003 has caused massive changes in attitudes towards intelligence sharing among the West. Nobody trusts American and British intelligence anymore, because everyone felt utterly cheated on 2003. You have a media that is cooking up ridiculous conspiracies to absolve Russia of any involvement in the MH17 incident. That same media is claiming that Kiev is overrun by fascists who are raising Nazi banners and looking to start another Holocaust. I have another Russian in my social media feed who is trying to convince me that there is no conflict in Ukraine at all and I must be daft for thinking that any fighting is really happening there. For the love of all that is holy, it's like Russians aren't even trying to be convincing.


Quote
Russia today said that the price for gas will increase for Europe. Now that's alright for countries like Norway, Netherlands, UK but Germany who's relying for 75% on Russian gas, they will feel it. Not to mention countries like Romania, Croatia, the Baltic States.

It's the short sightedness of the EU and the US that is costing Europe more than it does Russia.

Capital flight from Russia, credit rating devaluations, restriction of capital flows from the West and the trade ban of sophisticated technology and equipment for oil exploration in the Arctic are far worse than energy price increases. If that is all the Russians can do to Europe, it is only bringing light to the fact that the country is just a glorified petrol station, a small gun workshop at the side with little else to offer in global trade. Americans with their shale fracking can produce all the natural gas Europe can ever want for their energy needs. The Russian economy is about to suffer $1 trillion in damage. Now tell me, who's the myopic one?
« Last Edit: July 31, 2014, 07:50:44 AM by Alsheriam »

Offline consortium11

Re: Ukraine
« Reply #449 on: July 31, 2014, 08:33:00 AM »
Americans with their shale fracking can produce all the natural gas Europe can ever want for their energy needs.

That's great.

Now how do you get it there?

There is one tiny LNG export processing plant in the US as things stand, with five more approved (only one of which has started construction). The cost of converting an LNG import facility (of which there are 12 in the US) to also be able to export is about $10 billion, the cost of building a new one $20 billion and each takes somewhere in the region of three-to-five years from the start of construction to actually being able to start exports. It would take around 15-20 fully operating plants at full production capacity to match what Russia currently exports to Europe. Moreover, due to both the initial costs and the far higher costs of LNG exports unless the US is going to take an absolute kicking on the price then it will be considerably higher than what Russia currently offers natural gas for.

Let us also remember that while Gazprom is state-owned and thus largely does what the Russian state tells them too, the LNG export interests in the US are pretty much all private companies. There's no guarantee that more LNG export plants will be approved, no guarantee that the companies have the money to actually complete the plants and no guarantee that Russia won't respond to the plants nearing completion by offering gas a significantly lower price (which with its lower overheads it can afford to do) and driving the companies out of the market.

The idea that the US could step in and provide natural gas for Europe anytime in the next two or three years if Russia closed the pipes is completely unrealistic.