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Author Topic: Ukraine  (Read 13747 times)

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Offline Dashenka

Re: Ukraine
« Reply #400 on: July 18, 2014, 02:09:37 PM »
What is your definition of "well"? How do you compensate for the loss of life? I'm sorry (which no one has even heard yet) doesn't cover the loss of life. Are the seperatists going to be jailed or executed for shooting the plane down? Of course not.

This is not going to end "well".

The investigation is going to be neutral and thorough and if the person responsible can be found, they will be brought to justice. I'm confident of that. That's what I meant with 'well'

Offline Oniya

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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #401 on: July 18, 2014, 02:12:32 PM »
I doubt we'll get a much better outcome than 'simply' avoiding escalation.  I share Einstein's fears about World War 4.  (I know not what weapons World War 3 will be fought with, but World War 4 will be fought with sticks and stones.)

Offline Zakharra

Re: Ukraine
« Reply #402 on: July 18, 2014, 03:26:58 PM »
I meant that the person who wrote that article misinterpreted. :)

 Well, if Putin actually said that and was talking about historical Russian claims to the area, it's not hard to see it as Russian propaganda for a land grab, much like they did in the Crimea. That was listed as historical Russian land and was given away wrongly. Much the same it's looking like that article is saying. Honestly, Russia should, pardon my language, shut the fuck up about 'historical Russian land', when practically EVERYTHING they say is theirs historically is because they frikking killed the then current owners of it. Southern Ukraine is no more historically Russian territory than anything in Siberia and the Far East. he same claims of historical territory Russia is making can be applied to territory Russia currently has. So them using that as an excuse can and should come back to bite them on the ass when other nations agitate to strip Russian territories from it on the basis of 'historical claims'.

Online TheGlyphstone

Re: Ukraine
« Reply #403 on: July 18, 2014, 03:30:02 PM »
So them using that as an excuse can and should come back to bite them on the ass when other nations agitate to strip Russian territories from it on the basis of 'historical claims'.

'From this day forth, the entirety of Russia and parts of Eastern Europe shall be known as Greater West Mongolia, on the historical basis of the conquests of Genghis Khan'.

Offline gaggedLouise

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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #404 on: July 18, 2014, 04:20:53 PM »
'From this day forth, the entirety of Russia and parts of Eastern Europe shall be known as Greater West Mongolia, on the historical basis of the conquests of Genghis Khan'.

Hmm, not really. Is it your own statement or quoting somebody, Glyphstone? (It sounds old but I cant find it through Google).

Let's keep a civilized tone here, guys. Implying that Russia is and always must remain a Horde (not a civilized nation) where people shall always get brainwashed, have their shops destroyed and get knout flogged if they dare speak up, because of some ingrained slave heritage infecting everything and  going right back into the middle ages, is...unfair spouting from the 19th century.

Edit, ten minutes later: --Or okay, maybe I misread it? Reading the post again I can sort of see how you may have been after the excuse of "rescuing ancient parts of our home land" and reuniting them - but the trope of equating Russia, Russian society and Russians themselves, with an everlasting, updated Mongol barbarism is kinda "heard it all before" - it's been around a few times, too.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2014, 04:31:39 PM by gaggedLouise »

Online TheGlyphstone

Re: Ukraine
« Reply #405 on: July 18, 2014, 04:35:12 PM »
It was supposed to be injecting humor into the topic (which clearly failed) - if Russia can claim Ukraine because its land was once ruled by Russians, Mongolia could claim Russia because it was once ruled by Mongols. 'Barbarism' was never involved, and I have no idea how you ended up there.


Online Callie Del Noire

Re: Ukraine
« Reply #406 on: July 18, 2014, 04:43:58 PM »
I doubt that the plane's black box is going to be able to identify the hardware that shot it down.  That information would be part of the physical wreckage, not the flight recorder, and I doubt that missiles broadcast anything that the plane's equipment could pick up as an 'identifier'.  What will be most critical is the voice recorder - did the pilots have instructions to fly that corridor, or were they going 'off trail'?   Were there any warnings made to the plane that they were entering disputed airspace?  (Either by the people that fired the missile, or by other ATCs in the area.)  No one seems to be disputing the physical cause of the plane going down (someone shot it), only the reasons behind it.

True but it will clarify things like altitude and airspeed. Personally I do NOT think Russia forces did it. They can I'd commercial aircraft to know an airliner from a military cargo next, ECT

Someone they quickly trained in system use. Yeah. That seems more plausible.

Applauding the acts by Putin to make it clear he's not hiding thing.

I'm betting it was some upstart fringe group looking to kill the 'enemy' without being clear in their aim.

Offline gaggedLouise

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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #407 on: July 18, 2014, 04:45:11 PM »
It was supposed to be injecting humor into the topic (which clearly failed) - if Russia can claim Ukraine because its land was once ruled by Russians, Mongolia could claim Russia because it was once ruled by Mongols. 'Barbarism' was never involved, and I have no idea how you ended up there.

*nods* Yes, I picked up on the satiric idea when reading it over again. It's some time since Mongolia was a major power in the world but I got the joke - maybe needed to get my first reading of it out óf the way first. The idea that "Russia is and always remains a Horde, it will never be a civilized nation" and it's no part of Europe - sorry guys, you were snatched out of Europe when you were overtaken by the Mongol Khans and you can never come back to join us...I figure that kind of talk might be heard more often over here than in America (in the US it's communism that's been sized up as the arch enemy but not an eternal barbaric Russia itself, right?)
« Last Edit: July 18, 2014, 04:49:26 PM by gaggedLouise »

Online TheGlyphstone

Re: Ukraine
« Reply #408 on: July 18, 2014, 04:53:15 PM »
I'd always understood Mongols to be above-average for their time, at least in the tolerance-aspect of civilization. Nomads, sure, without the urban-agrarian trappings of 'civilization', but they let conquered states worship/govern however they wanted if the tribute kept flowing.

Offline Zakharra

Re: Ukraine
« Reply #409 on: July 18, 2014, 05:16:38 PM »
True but it will clarify things like altitude and airspeed. Personally I do NOT think Russia forces did it. They can I'd commercial aircraft to know an airliner from a military cargo next, ECT

Someone they quickly trained in system use. Yeah. That seems more plausible.

Applauding the acts by Putin to make it clear he's not hiding thing.

I'm betting it was some upstart fringe group looking to kill the 'enemy' without being clear in their aim.

 Yeah. The best thing Putin could do is to hand the black boxes over to the international inspectors as fast as possible. The bless time in Russian hands, the more honest it makes them appear and will lessen any charges of 'they changed it'

Offline gaggedLouise

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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #410 on: July 18, 2014, 05:17:27 PM »
I'd always understood Mongols to be above-average for their time, at least in the tolerance-aspect of civilization. Nomads, sure, without the urban-agrarian trappings of 'civilization', but they let conquered states worship/govern however they wanted if the tribute kept flowing.

Yeah, they were tolerant and appreciative of technology, gardens and beauty - but for some reason in European history (and even in Russia, I've been told) they are 95% remembered as inhuman eastern barbarians, burning cities, imposing slavery, heavy taxes, mass executions and cruel punishments. Much like the ISIS of the 13th century, but vastly more powerful and lasting.

Offline Dashenka

Re: Ukraine
« Reply #411 on: July 18, 2014, 05:37:55 PM »
Yeah. The best thing Putin could do is to hand the black boxes over to the international inspectors as fast as possible. The bless time in Russian hands, the more honest it makes them appear and will lessen any charges of 'they changed it'

I think this is what will happen IF (and it's not sure where they are now) the black boxes get indeed taken to Russia. The seperatists claim they have them and that they will bring them to Russia. Putin's many things but stupid is not one of them. He knows he can't hold onto them and he too knows that the longer they stay in Russia, the more likely people will get suspicious. I think this is why he said yesterday (or this morning I can't remember) that Russia would not accept the boxes.

So far, nobody of any importance has them yet, which is the main point now. Get that investigation team together and give them full and unconditional access to the crash site and other sites they need to investigate. Proving it was shot is easy (NSA or some other American criminal service has already said they had some kind of radar images proving it), proving who did it and getting those people in front of a court is a whole different ball game.

Offline Neysha

Re: Ukraine
« Reply #412 on: July 18, 2014, 09:34:24 PM »
After the investigation is over, I think the best option to prevent this from happening again could be solved by anti-radiation missiles targeting SAM sites in the Eastern Ukraine. Maybe we can open a channel of communication with the separatists so they can turn on their SAM radars so it'll be easier for the anti-radiation missiles to to take them out. No need for people to get hurt unless they want to be. Just equipment as it's quite clear and apparent the Rebels can't be trusted with bigger peashooters.  ;)

Offline Zakharra

Re: Ukraine
« Reply #413 on: July 18, 2014, 10:43:51 PM »
I think this is what will happen IF (and it's not sure where they are now) the black boxes get indeed taken to Russia. The seperatists claim they have them and that they will bring them to Russia. Putin's many things but stupid is not one of them. He knows he can't hold onto them and he too knows that the longer they stay in Russia, the more likely people will get suspicious. I think this is why he said yesterday (or this morning I can't remember) that Russia would not accept the boxes.

So far, nobody of any importance has them yet, which is the main point now. Get that investigation team together and give them full and unconditional access to the crash site and other sites they need to investigate. Proving it was shot is easy (NSA or some other American criminal service has already said they had some kind of radar images proving it), proving who did it and getting those people in front of a court is a whole different ball game.

 Your bias is showing Dashenka. Badly.

Online TheGlyphstone

Re: Ukraine
« Reply #414 on: July 18, 2014, 11:01:45 PM »
Your bias is showing Dashenka. Badly.

Dash has never tried to hide her pro-Russian partisanship.

Offline Dashenka

Re: Ukraine
« Reply #415 on: July 19, 2014, 02:30:54 AM »
Well I can safely say that NSA hasn't been making itself popular in Europe after spying and listening in on every single leader of a European country. It damaged America's reputation badly. Especially in Germany, who in my opinion should be coming down a lot harder on the US than they are doing now but that's a different discussion.

If the NSA have the proof that the plane was shot down however, I hope they're willing to share this information with the investigation party. I doubt this will happen because it's the NSA and the NSA only cares about one thing. America. Which is their job I guess so I can't even blame them too much.

It's not showing my bias. It's what I think is the truth. If the KGB gets their hands on those boxes, God knows what would happen. My bias here is for an independent party to investigate, something the NSA isn't. Them claiming to have proof the plane was shot down by a Russian made missile, is really out of place at this time and won't help the cause AT ALL.

Let me add to that something I said to a mentor yesterday.
If it turns out that the equipment the plane was shot down with was brought into Ukraine at Russian command, I will be the first to judge and condemn my own government for allowing it to happen. But right now, the NSA claiming it was shot down by a Russian missile is as obvious and provocative as anything.

Of course it was shot down by a Russian missile. The Ukrainian army uses Russian equipment as well. Claims like that can only hurt an independent investigation and it would be appropriate for the NSA to for once, sit this one out and NOT interfere with it.



« Last Edit: July 19, 2014, 02:34:43 AM by Dashenka »

Offline Dice

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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #416 on: July 19, 2014, 04:12:23 AM »
Your bias is showing Dashenka. Badly.
There is nothing in that post I find myself disagreeing with so it can't be that bad.

Offline gaggedLouise

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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #417 on: July 19, 2014, 04:26:36 AM »
There is nothing in that post I find myself disagreeing with so it can't be that bad.

Me neither really, but I wonder who is going to guarantee "full and unconditional access to the crash site and other sites they need to investigate" for the investigator teams. It sounds like a tall order under the present tense circumstances - I could picture several sides here who would not want to offer free open access, guarantees of on-the-ground safety and so on for a presumably UN-led investigation. It's a no-brainer that the Russian-speaking separatists, in particular, could allege that those investigators included spies and informers whose real masters (in their opinion) would be the US and NATO.

Offline Dice

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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #418 on: July 19, 2014, 04:46:40 AM »
I would not be surprised if one or two of them really were spies. I am sorry, but that to me seams like the very thing a few countries would do given the opportunity.

Here's the thing though, the deed is done, the actions that all involved now will be a defining point for how they are seen by the world at large. Western media is already quite hostile towards this whole situation, but right now is pointing the blame more or less directly at the separatists and not so much at Russia. This leaves Russia with a way out of this no-win situation that leaves them with less anger directed at them.

The issue is, for Russia to get away from this and save face, they would have to pull support for the separatists. After all that has gone into making this operation run, I do not see them wanting to pull that support. So this leaves them between a rock and a hard place, pull support and the Ukrainian government goes in and mops up, or stay the course and meet some very choppy waters on the way.

Personally, after all that has happened with sanctions and shit of late, it's not a big ask for Russia to just decide to stay the course. After all, there is not much more the rest of the world can do to Russia and I am willing to bet there is a good deal of anger in the Russian population at large over the way that the Western powers have handled this whole thing from the start.
« Last Edit: July 19, 2014, 04:54:29 AM by Dice »

Offline Neysha

Re: Ukraine
« Reply #419 on: July 19, 2014, 07:38:05 AM »
The NSA discussion is a red herring.

The NSA isn't the one stating that the Rebels shot down the aircraft.

The Rebels have stated through social media via pictures and audio wiretaps that they were responsible for shooting down the plane.

The Rebels have shot down planes before, they have the SAM capabilities to do so and were bragging about it now until they realized it was an airliner.

The Russian Separatists shot down this plane.

Stating the Ukrainians shot down this plane has no evidence beyond Putin's desperate mythmaking ability. The Russian separatists have no aircraft and there is no reason for Ukraine to deploy its SAM's since they have implied air superiority and the separatists have none.

The SAM was operating in territory controlled by Russian separatists. This isn't the NSA that's saying that. It's radar from several other sources.

Unless some new evidence miraculously shows up, it seems readily apparent that the separatists have shot down this plane. The allegations of the Ukrainian military shooting it down as some elaborate false flag operation are laughable considering the 'competence' of the Ukrainian military so far and preponderance of evidence alluding towards the Rebel involvement. Considering the current evidence, itmight as well be a conspiracy theory along the levels that the Moon Landing was Faked or Bush and the Jews Planned and Executed 9-11.

As for the official investigation, someone is hampering it.
« Last Edit: July 19, 2014, 07:42:24 AM by Neysha »

Offline Dashenka

Re: Ukraine
« Reply #420 on: July 19, 2014, 08:22:35 AM »

Personally, after all that has happened with sanctions and shit of late, it's not a big ask for Russia to just decide to stay the course. After all, there is not much more the rest of the world can do to Russia and I am willing to bet there is a good deal of anger in the Russian population at large over the way that the Western powers have handled this whole thing from the start.

This is true. Not only in Russia, also in Ukraine itself.

This should however not be a reason to hamper the investigation in any way. Hear me out before shouting please. The region is controlled by Ukrainian seperatists (no idea why everybody calls them Russian, they're not) and they will not allow Ukrainian soldiers on the ground.

So why not chose the lesser of two 'evils', allow Putin to at least temporarily put Russian soldiers on the ground in that area, to secure the investigation. Those rebels can't be trusted, government soldiers with strict orders can.

I just read that the government in Kiev says that the rebels took 38 bodies from the crash site. With Russian soldiers on the ground there, that wouldn't have happened. Sending Ukrainian soldiers there will only aggrevate the rebels even more. Why would that not be a good idea?

Online Callie Del Noire

Re: Ukraine
« Reply #421 on: July 19, 2014, 08:54:51 AM »
This is true. Not only in Russia, also in Ukraine itself.

This should however not be a reason to hamper the investigation in any way. Hear me out before shouting please. The region is controlled by Ukrainian seperatists (no idea why everybody calls them Russian, they're not) and they will not allow Ukrainian soldiers on the ground.

So why not chose the lesser of two 'evils', allow Putin to at least temporarily put Russian soldiers on the ground in that area, to secure the investigation. Those rebels can't be trusted, government soldiers with strict orders can.

I just read that the government in Kiev says that the rebels took 38 bodies from the crash site. With Russian soldiers on the ground there, that wouldn't have happened. Sending Ukrainian soldiers there will only aggrevate the rebels even more. Why would that not be a good idea?

It's a perfectly good question why not..

1. Russia has been in the issue behind the seperatists.
2. There are a LOT of concerns that their 'peace keeping forces/investigators' might also bring additional logistical support to the seperatists
3. You don't tread into another country's territory, to 'simply assist' in an investigation. EVERYONE else will see it as a precusor to grabbing the area in question, which the Russians already want.

Ideally (I say it that way since I doubt anything will ever happen this way) the UN would send in a peace keeping force SPONSORED by Putin as a 'neutral' option. I doubt it would make it through the security council. Personally I think a peace keeping force headed by someone from say.. the Netherlands (who lost a fair number of members of the flight) would be best.

Offline Dice

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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #422 on: July 19, 2014, 09:15:49 AM »
I would bet money Abbott would send a force of asked. There are options.

Offline Zakharra

Re: Ukraine
« Reply #423 on: July 19, 2014, 09:35:04 AM »
This is true. Not only in Russia, also in Ukraine itself.

This should however not be a reason to hamper the investigation in any way. Hear me out before shouting please. The region is controlled by Ukrainian seperatists (no idea why everybody calls them Russian, they're not) and they will not allow Ukrainian soldiers on the ground.

So why not chose the lesser of two 'evils', allow Putin to at least temporarily put Russian soldiers on the ground in that area, to secure the investigation. Those rebels can't be trusted, government soldiers with strict orders can.

I just read that the government in Kiev says that the rebels took 38 bodies from the crash site. With Russian soldiers on the ground there, that wouldn't have happened. Sending Ukrainian soldiers there will only aggrevate the rebels even more. Why would that not be a good idea?

 As Callie De Norie points out, having Russian troops come in to secure the crash site, even temporarily, would not look good since Russia is behind the separatists, has supplied them with arms, equipment and troops (advisers), clearly wants to annex large parts of Ukrainian territory, and would be suspected of bringing in additional supplies for the separatists.  It wouldn't be known if Russian troops would leave afterwards ('We're going to protect the ethnic Russian minority while we are here.'), and it looks real bad for Russia to send in troops without the Ukrainian government asking and authorizing it first.  If Russia wants to play this good, they will keep any and all soldiers out of the area. Besides, how can Russian troops be less aggravating than Ukrainian troops? It's Ukrainian territory, Dashnenka, not Russian. Russia certainly would not allow foreign troops to enter its territory to secure a plane crash site in territory that was rebelling, especially by the nation suspected of supporting aid rebels.
 
The UN idea or sending in Dutch peacekeepers to secure the site, with Ukrainian approval/Authorization, would be best. Russia's approval is a moot point here.

Offline Dashenka

Re: Ukraine
« Reply #424 on: July 19, 2014, 10:07:07 AM »
... since Russia is behind the separatists, has supplied them with arms, equipment and troops (advisers), clearly wants to annex large parts of Ukrainian territory, and would be suspected of bringing in additional supplies for the separatists....

These claims get a bit tiresome, Zakharra. There is NO evidence about this whatsoever. You keep banging on about it but as of yet, you or anybody else have given not a single piece of evidence.

I agree that obviously a neutral party would be the best option, no doubt, but the rebels simply wouldn't allow any of those parties in. Not the Dutch and especially not the UN. They would allow Russian soldiers in and if that helps the investigation. If they have Putin's word that the soldiers leave after the investigation (and he has NO reason to keep them there) what is against it?