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Author Topic: Ukraine  (Read 13756 times)

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Offline lovelylilT

Re: Ukraine
« Reply #325 on: June 28, 2014, 11:34:38 AM »
I only call United States and EU jokes because they make many promises, over many months, for helping Ukraine. And, they break almost all their promises to us. And, every time they try "helping", they pour more petrol on fires. Things here would not be this bad, if EU and United States didn't meddle so much.

Putin isn't a angel, I know that. His hands aren't perfect and clean, in what happens here. Or, that Russia stays always innocent in our problems. But, I still trust him and Russian government more than Obama and the West.

And, my lacking trust in United States and EU is for their governments. I know many wonderful people in America, and West Europe, they're friends and their hearts are kind, and good. I only don't think the leaders of their countries, have good intentions for my country, only selfish ones.

Offline Zakharra

Re: Ukraine
« Reply #326 on: June 28, 2014, 12:00:32 PM »
I only call United States and EU jokes because they make many promises, over many months, for helping Ukraine. And, they break almost all their promises to us. And, every time they try "helping", they pour more petrol on fires. Things here would not be this bad, if EU and United States didn't meddle so much.

Putin isn't a angel, I know that. His hands aren't perfect and clean, in what happens here. Or, that Russia stays always innocent in our problems. But, I still trust him and Russian government more than Obama and the West.

And, my lacking trust in United States and EU is for their governments. I know many wonderful people in America, and West Europe, they're friends and their hearts are kind, and good. I only don't think the leaders of their countries, have good intentions for my country, only selfish ones.

 With that being said, isn't Russia doing the exact same thing? With the side benefit of Russia gaining parts of Ukraine as a result of said broken promises and meddling with Ukraine's internal affairs. I trust the Russian government and Putin no farther than I can throw a T-72 tank with both hands. No matter how you spin it, Russia is actively involved in dismembering a country it -promised- to help keep together.  The reasoning behind Russia's actions in the Crimea were always specious and we know Russia and Putin actively lied so it's not like there is any reason to believe them when they say they aren't really involved in the other two regions.

 As much as you say you trust the Russian government and Putin more than anyone else, everyone else has even less of a reason to trust Russia/Putin. They lie and steal and are more than willing to foment rebellion (seriously, giving tanks to separatists? That is NOT a humanitarian gesture) and as much as others have gone on about the human rights record of the EU and US, Russia's human rights record is a lot worse.

Offline Dashenka

Re: Ukraine
« Reply #327 on: June 28, 2014, 12:19:08 PM »
With that being said, isn't Russia doing the exact same thing? With the side benefit of Russia gaining parts of Ukraine as a result of said broken promises and meddling with Ukraine's internal affairs. I trust the Russian government and Putin no farther than I can throw a T-72 tank with both hands. No matter how you spin it, Russia is actively involved in dismembering a country it -promised- to help keep together.  The reasoning behind Russia's actions in the Crimea were always specious and we know Russia and Putin actively lied so it's not like there is any reason to believe them when they say they aren't really involved in the other two regions.

 As much as you say you trust the Russian government and Putin more than anyone else, everyone else has even less of a reason to trust Russia/Putin. They lie and steal and are more than willing to foment rebellion (seriously, giving tanks to separatists? That is NOT a humanitarian gesture) and as much as others have gone on about the human rights record of the EU and US, Russia's human rights record is a lot worse.

True or not, the fact remains that every country except Russia has ignored the problem in Ukraine for years and then instigated the riots that are now happening. Why? Because they suddenly care for the country? Or because they wanted to provoke Russia? I think we all know the answer. The US Government doesn't care about any other countries than America, Afganistan and Iraq and the EU saw Russia get too close for comfort. What they did in Ukraine, was not to help Ukraine, it was to safe their own skin and provoke Russia and make Putin look like a bad man, which perhaps worked all over the country but in Russia he's more popular than ever.

I'm still convinced Putin has no intentions in taking Ukraine (or parts of it) other than Crimea, Moldova, the Baltic States and God knows what back to Russia. There's enough problems in Russia to deal with more problems in 'new' land. Also, those tanks.. The Ukranian army went there weeks ago and surrendered immediately because they didn't want to shoot at their own people. That's where the tanks COULD come from.

I don't know where they come from but until I have proof, I'm not making claims, something others seem to be doing. A tank shows up and it HAS to come from Russia.

Offline lovelylilT

Re: Ukraine
« Reply #328 on: June 28, 2014, 12:45:30 PM »
I don't spin.

I leave this discussion now, with respects for everyone taking time for their postings.

Offline Zakharra

Re: Ukraine
« Reply #329 on: June 28, 2014, 01:04:01 PM »
True or not, the fact remains that every country except Russia has ignored the problem in Ukraine for years and then instigated the riots that are now happening. Why? Because they suddenly care for the country? Or because they wanted to provoke Russia? I think we all know the answer. The US Government doesn't care about any other countries than America, Afganistan and Iraq and the EU saw Russia get too close for comfort. What they did in Ukraine, was not to help Ukraine, it was to safe their own skin and provoke Russia and make Putin look like a bad man, which perhaps worked all over the country but in Russia he's more popular than ever.

I'm still convinced Putin has no intentions in taking Ukraine (or parts of it) other than Crimea, Moldova, the Baltic States and God knows what back to Russia. There's enough problems in Russia to deal with more problems in 'new' land. Also, those tanks.. The Ukranian army went there weeks ago and surrendered immediately because they didn't want to shoot at their own people. That's where the tanks COULD come from.

I don't know where they come from but until I have proof, I'm not making claims, something others seem to be doing. A tank shows up and it HAS to come from Russia.

 They got satellite images of tanks like those coming across the border from Russia and it fits Russia's MO to try and destabilize Ukraine to keep as much of it under Russian influence/control as possible.

 I seriously doubt what the EU did with Ukraine (invite them into the EU) was done to make Putin look like a bad man or to deliberately provoke Russia. It was done for other reasons, but the two you named; provoke Russia and make Putin look like a bad man? Hardly. He and Russia do that well enough on their own. The EU's interest in Ukraine is for EU interests, making Putin and Russia look like fools would have been a side effect.

 As it is, we will have to agree to disagree on this subject. I think Russia is and did deliberately stir the pot in Ukraine and is looking to  reform the old Soviet union 9under a different name), and you and others think otherwise, as is your right. So we can respectfully agree to disagree here.

 /bow

Offline Dashenka

Re: Ukraine
« Reply #330 on: July 09, 2014, 04:17:42 AM »
These are picture from the eastern Ukraine, mostly caused by Ukranian forces bombing the shit out of the place.

Well done EU and America.... bloody well done indeed...

*heart brakes*

https://vk.com/album-69838054_198072706

http://www.infowars.com/the-only-thing-more-shameful-than-the-shelling-of-eastern-ukraine-is-the-silence-from-the-left/


Where's Putin when you need him...

Offline Zakharra

Re: Ukraine
« Reply #331 on: July 09, 2014, 11:04:29 AM »
  Why are you blaming the EU and USA for this? Doesn't the Ukrainian government have a responsibility to see that it's nation is safe and the borders intact and separatists who are advocating splitting off defeated? The separatists aren't going to necessarily surrender peacefully, they are inclined to shoot rather than talk so what is the government supposed to do? Sit on its ass and do nothing and hope the separatists feel like leaving? What would Putin do that wouldn't benefit him and Russia over the eastern areas? 

I know there's some who do want the Ukrainian government to drive out the separatists. I know someone on another forum who lives in Donetsk and is Ukrainian, not Russian, and wants to stay in Ukraine.  He's no fan of Russia or the separatists.

 As for the article's knowledge, they have it wrong on Fox News. It's to the right politically, not left. The author is broad brush painting.

Offline Dashenka

Re: Ukraine
« Reply #332 on: July 09, 2014, 11:16:26 AM »
I'm still blaming America and the EU for first getting Ukraine to this point and then step away and do nothing. Guess it's good for the weapon industry and to make Ukraine more depending on EU money.

So in fact, I'm not blaming them for doing it, I'm blaming them for doing nothing.

Offline consortium11

Re: Ukraine
« Reply #333 on: July 09, 2014, 11:50:38 AM »
As for the article's knowledge, they have it wrong on Fox News. It's to the right politically, not left. The author is broad brush painting.

Slightly off topic:

1) The article's from Infowars, Alex Jones' website. Alex Jones is arguably the most high profile conspiracy theorist in the world right now, a 9/11 truther and generally a prett "out there" piece of work... take anything he says with a grain of salt (and by "grain" I mean a bucketload).

2) That said, I think you're slightly misreading the article here. He mentions FOX news with regards to the "big names in the corporate media" which they undoubtedly are. The rest of the article, where he talks about progressives and the "psuedo left" is referring to other media groups and contrasting them somewhat with the previous names FOX, CNN and NBC; he name drops the Huffington Post in this case but there are others he could bring up.

Offline Dashenka

Re: Ukraine
« Reply #334 on: July 09, 2014, 12:16:47 PM »
The point are the pictures. The link is just to show where I got them from. I know the author is a bit of a nutter and still believes 9/11 was the work of the government. Perhaps not the smartest thing from my part to post that link. The pictures are real though.
Very real.

Offline Zakharra

Re: Ukraine
« Reply #335 on: July 09, 2014, 01:01:54 PM »
  Fair points. Although at this stage I think there is little the EU, USA or Russia can do that they won't be seen as outsiders. Especially if Russia offers support to the separatists.  I think the two major players (EU and Russia. Less the US since it's so far away) do have interests in Ukraine, but we'll have to see how it plays out.

Online Callie Del Noire

Re: Ukraine
« Reply #336 on: July 09, 2014, 02:05:11 PM »
So, you would blame the west for respecting the country's autonomy while possibly ignoring the fact that Russia is still apparently outfitting the rebels and without that support they MIGHT be force to sit down and talk to the central government?

Offline Dashenka

Re: Ukraine
« Reply #337 on: July 09, 2014, 02:11:44 PM »
No I blame them for being selective in which country's autonomy they respect and about the fact that 'they' first nearly plunge Ukraine into civil war and now that it happened be quiet about it and look the other way as if it isnt happening while still threatening Putin to stop interfering. Innocent people are killed and arrested.

Offline Zakharra

Re: Ukraine
« Reply #338 on: July 09, 2014, 03:04:16 PM »
 Don't forget that Russia had a large hand in causing that too.

Offline Dashenka

Re: Ukraine
« Reply #339 on: July 09, 2014, 03:10:19 PM »
Russia's backing out because they have to. Not because they want to. They want to help the people in Ukraine. I know you don't buy that but it's true.

Offline Zakharra

Re: Ukraine
« Reply #340 on: July 09, 2014, 05:05:29 PM »
 I can more or less accept that answer, but please don't discount that Russia is just as responsible for this mess as the EU is. I'm not sure how much influence the US had in this since the EU is a lot closer and has more relevant political and economic concerns in the area. It is on the EU's border after all.

Offline Dashenka

Re: Ukraine
« Reply #341 on: July 09, 2014, 05:11:46 PM »
Russia was or is involved, but Russia is still involved to help out. The EU is not.

Offline Zillah

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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #342 on: July 09, 2014, 08:45:55 PM »
All I know is that I'm friends with lovelylilT, who was previously posting in this thread, and who lives in the Eastern Ukraine. I last heard from her several days ago, when the Ukraine Army had shut down the roads leading out of her town, and had taken over the airport as well. There was no leaving, unless you wanted to risk being shot as a "terrorist", but meanwhile, they'd started shelling parts of her town to take out the separatists there - and according to her, they weren't particularly being careful or discriminating about what they were blowing up.

She expected that the town was going to lose power and cell service. I haven't been able to get in touch with her at all since then, nor have any of her family who live in the West.

I admit that I do not know all of the particulars of the politics of what's happening there, so I can't offer any sort of informed opinion about who's most responsible for the country's current situation. All I know is that apparently the actions of the Ukrainian army against their own cities and people have bitterly polarized the eastern half of the country. The people there hate the government in Kiev now. And they're extremely upset that Putin didn't help them more.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2014, 05:17:05 AM by Zillah »

Offline Zakharra

Re: Ukraine
« Reply #343 on: July 09, 2014, 09:09:23 PM »
Russia was or is involved, but Russia is still involved to help out. The EU is not.

 I'm sorry to say this, but that is an extremely hypocritical view for you to take  Dashenka. Russia is one of the main causes of all this. It's involvement pretty much caused the secession of the Crimea (land grab, yes?) and the chaos in the eastern oblasts.

Offline Dashenka

Re: Ukraine
« Reply #344 on: July 10, 2014, 03:24:50 AM »
Putin's involvement caused the land grab if that's what you want to call it. This is not about Crim anymore, it's about Donetsk, Luhansk, Slavyansk and other cities and villages in the eastern Ukraine. They want to be part of Russia and for that, they get bombed and shot by their own government.

Whether or not Putin is still involved or was involved is completely irrelevant.

A member of Elliquiy and a fresh mother is being marked a terrorist or seperatist by HER OWN government for rather having Putin as their president than the billionaire in Kiev or simply because she lives near or in Luhansk. I simply cannot fathom how anybody can justify that or how anybody can sit back and think.. Hmm yes... yes this is good cause it's happening inside Ukraine, it's their own worry, let's all pretend it's not happening.

The EU and Russia caused this and the US in a way as well. EU backed out, Russia wants to help the people in the east, yet what does the EU say? If you help them any more, we'll put more sanctions on you.

However, the blame game is over, time for solutions now or this situation will fester on for decades like Israel and Palestina. I don't want people who I consider my friend to be oppressed by their own government.

Offline Zillah

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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #345 on: July 10, 2014, 06:35:31 AM »
When I first started following this situation, I looked at Ukraine as kind of this unfortunate country caught in a political tug-of-war between Russia and the EU (and the US, to a lesser extent).

The fact that the Ukraine military is actively acting against its own people in its eastern regions, though ... that's horrifying and criminal. And it's clear (to me) that there would be better ways of fighting against the separatist factions if that's what they really wanted.

I think it's a disgrace that no one's stepping in to end the fighting. And I don't see why there couldn't be a peaceful referendum to see if the regions of the Donbass - that's the Eastern Ukraine, yes? - want to remain part of Ukraine, or part of the Russian Federation, if that's what the people there want.

Offline Dashenka

Re: Ukraine
« Reply #346 on: July 10, 2014, 06:42:41 AM »
I think it's a disgrace that no one's stepping in to end the fighting. And I don't see why there couldn't be a peaceful referendum to see if the regions of the Donbass - that's the Eastern Ukraine, yes? - want to remain part of Ukraine, or part of the Russian Federation, if that's what the people there want.

Glad that at least one American sees it the way I do. Was beginning to worry that I might be an idiot :D

Offline Zillah

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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #347 on: July 10, 2014, 07:13:07 AM »
You're certainly not an idiot, Dashenka. :)

I know enough to know that this is an extremely complex situation. When the situation in Crimea began, I pretty much accepted what I was reading in the New York Times - this was the beginning of Putin trying to create a Soviet Union 2.0. It's taken some time for me to see how some of the actions of the United States and the EU have equally been responsible for creating the toxic situation there.

FWIW, I don't think Putin's actions are entirely altruistic. It doesn't hurt that Crimea and the eastern regions of the Ukraine also happen to be the economic strongholds of that country. But regardless of that, it still doesn't change the fact that many people there want a change. They should have an opportunity to choose their fate, whatever it might be, rather than having it chosen for them by Kiev or Russia or the EU.

Offline Zakharra

Re: Ukraine
« Reply #348 on: July 10, 2014, 09:52:21 AM »
Putin's involvement caused the land grab if that's what you want to call it. This is not about Crim anymore, it's about Donetsk, Luhansk, Slavyansk and other cities and villages in the eastern Ukraine. They want to be part of Russia and for that, they get bombed and shot by their own government.

Whether or not Putin is still involved or was involved is completely irrelevant.

A member of Elliquiy and a fresh mother is being marked a terrorist or seperatist by HER OWN government for rather having Putin as their president than the billionaire in Kiev or simply because she lives near or in Luhansk. I simply cannot fathom how anybody can justify that or how anybody can sit back and think.. Hmm yes... yes this is good cause it's happening inside Ukraine, it's their own worry, let's all pretend it's not happening.

The EU and Russia caused this and the US in a way as well. EU backed out, Russia wants to help the people in the east, yet what does the EU say? If you help them any more, we'll put more sanctions on you.

However, the blame game is over, time for solutions now or this situation will fester on for decades like Israel and Palestina. I don't want people who I consider my friend to be oppressed by their own government.

 So those cities should be allowed to take the region into Russia and the Ukrainian government should sit by and do nothing? The government has a -right- and responsibility to respond to separatists. The separatists are wanting to separate from the Ukrainian nation (and most of the people in that region identified themselves as Ukrainian, not Russian, according to wikipedia), so the government has a responsibility to move in and restore order. I admit that  it's going to be bloody and people will be killed, but when it takes military force to dig out the insurgents (that's what the separatists basically are) because they won;t leave, well then, it's going to be bloody.

Again I ask, what is the Ukrainian government supposed to do in this situation? Talking wasn't working, the separatists are dug into the towns among the population and digging them out isn't going to be easy. It's kind of silly to blame the government for collateral damage when the insurgents are hiding in the population, in houses, offices and buildings. I put more fault on the separatists. If they want to join Russia so badly, then they can bloody well move there.

Offline Dashenka

Re: Ukraine
« Reply #349 on: July 10, 2014, 10:16:14 AM »
Again I ask, what is the Ukrainian government supposed to do in this situation?

Listen to their people! It's not a few insurgents. It's the majority of the people that want to be part of Russia.