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Author Topic: Ukraine  (Read 13754 times)

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Online Dashenka

Re: Ukraine
« Reply #300 on: June 25, 2014, 11:54:04 AM »
The country should, the people not. Ukraine as a country is flat broke, the people are not (yet).

Offline Scribbles

Re: Ukraine
« Reply #301 on: June 25, 2014, 12:39:59 PM »
Quote
What I mean is that everybody seems to know the situation better than somebody who's been to Ukraine multiple times and has lived in Russia most of her life. Opinions are fine but base them on facts, not on things you think you know.

I base all my opinions off what I've read. It's always exciting to get a bit of perspective from someone on the inside but I like to offer my own point of view as well, which I don't see as any less valid. That said, I'm not trying to ruffle feathers.

If Ukraine was so valuable for Russia because of it's resources, how comes the country is nearly bankrupt? If it has so many resources, surely it would thrife on export of those resources?

There are massive oil/gas reserves off the Crimean coast. It's the whole reason the EU wanted to bring them into the fold, so that they could curb the reliance on Russia for energy. At this point, it's likely just a "goodwill" gesture with the hope of a bit more coin for the EU coffers. As I said earlier, the Ukraine is going to suffer without Crimea.

Quote
Putin's biggest concern is to keep Russia together and to keep the majority of the Russians happy. He cares about the internal politics because he was elected BY the Russians, FOR the Russians. Unlike Obama, who was elected BY the Americans FOR the entire world or the EU leaders who are elected by God knows who for God knows who.

You're going on as if Russia has no interest in geopolitics. All the countries in the world are interested in what's happening outside their borders, especially as everyone scrambles to entice corporations or secure precious resources, or just fix the big fat messes they made by invading sovereign territories (not Russia). That said, we're fairly lucky to have international organisations and rules which dissuade governments from annexing countries at a whim...

And again you're using the reason of "protection" which I've voiced my disagreements with earlier.

Online Dashenka

Re: Ukraine
« Reply #302 on: June 25, 2014, 12:50:25 PM »
I base all my opinions off what I've read. It's always exciting to get a bit of perspective from someone on the inside but I like to offer my own point of view as well, which I don't see as any less valid. That said, I'm not trying to ruffle feathers.

There are massive oil/gas reserves off the Crimean coast. It's the whole reason the EU wanted to bring them into the fold, so that they could curb the reliance on Russia for energy. At this point, it's likely just a "goodwill" gesture with the hope of a bit more coin for the EU coffers. As I said earlier, the Ukraine is going to suffer without Crimea.

What you read is probably biased. I know the UK media mostly is :)

Ukraine would suffer far more if Crimea would stay with them.

Offline Scribbles

Re: Ukraine
« Reply #303 on: June 25, 2014, 01:06:14 PM »
What you read is probably biased. I know the UK media mostly is :)

While I do follow the BBC, I actually rely on quite a few news outlets...

My favourites being Stephen Colbert and John Stewart! :P

Seriously though, Aljazeera, AFP, AllAfrica, plus a few national outlets for specific interests which I won't name...

I even tune into CNN on occasion if I'm REALLY bored.

Quote
Ukraine would suffer far more if Crimea would stay with them.

You'll have to elaborate on that...
« Last Edit: June 25, 2014, 01:17:33 PM by Scribbles »

Online Dashenka

Re: Ukraine
« Reply #304 on: June 25, 2014, 01:37:14 PM »
The way I see it, Ukraine has been unstable for at least a decade. This whole east vs west didn't come overnight, it's been going on for years and politicians have been unable to adequately adress the situation. In stead they blamed each other for everything that happened in the country.

When Tymochenko was in power, the west supported her and the east didn't, when Yanukovich won, the east supported him and the west didn't. What the eastern parts of Ukraine didn't do, was overthrow the government when Tymochenko was in power, something the people in the west did when Yanukovich was in power.

Crimea now had it's taste of Russia. They've got the ruble, they've got Russian as their language, they are Russian basically. If you put them back into Ukraine, you'll create so much instability in Ukraine that eventually the whole country will blow itself up. It's basically what's happening now between east and west, only then Crimea will start a third group. It'll be hard enough to create a sustainable peace with these two groups now, let alone when Crimea joins the revolts.

Offline Scribbles

Re: Ukraine
« Reply #305 on: June 25, 2014, 01:57:46 PM »
Oh, I thought you meant if they hadn't been annexed to start with. Honestly, if they hadn't been invaded then Eastern Ukraine would likely not have gone into open revolt. This whole situation would have probably been a lot easier if debate had prevailed and Russia hadn't marched in, it was tense but at least somewhat manageable. It's mostly just chaos now.

I'm not even sure why Russia and the EU are enemies. Is it cultural, is it the language gap, is it a beer vs vodka thing, or is it because of a really, really, really, old war?

I'm also wondering if the US ends up the winner in all of this. My information might be a bit fuzzy in this regard so I'd love to hear from someone in the know but aren't the American bases being rearmed in Europe?

Online Dashenka

Re: Ukraine
« Reply #306 on: June 25, 2014, 02:11:47 PM »
It doesn't matter if they would have invaded or not. It would have escalated anyway. Been escalating for years and nobody noticed.

The only winner in this is Putin, because he has gained popularity and because of all the sanctions against Russia, he sped up a gas deal with China worth 400 billion dollars. The whole rocket shield America wishes to install on Russia's borders will hardly help the cause.

Offline Scribbles

Re: Ukraine
« Reply #307 on: June 25, 2014, 02:27:23 PM »
I disagree. Without Russia's invasion and subsequent lending of arms and troops, this situation would never have escalated to this point. To say otherwise is a real stretch seeing as the invasion was the catalyst. Putin may have "won", but he destabilized and robbed a country while at it and ensured hundreds of deaths.

You almost sound happy that we might be on the brink of an old Allies versus Soviet battle. Please tell me that isn't some common Russian wish?

Offline lovelylilT

Re: Ukraine
« Reply #308 on: June 25, 2014, 02:31:05 PM »
It's not open revolt here. Western press doesn't report accurate. Yes, there's little fighting and ambushes. But not gunfights in streets.

US isn't a winner in Ukraine. They're joke to us now.

My Dasha is right, only winner is Putin.

I hope now that Luhansk gets referendum, and changes get made without fighting. I would vote for joining Russia.

Offline Scribbles

Re: Ukraine
« Reply #309 on: June 25, 2014, 02:38:08 PM »
I'm not really sure the US cares if they're a joke to the Ukraine, you're completely misreading me somewhere...

I am commenting on the irony that Europe and Russia are at each other's throats and yet it's possible that America might be gaining from the feud. From what I've heard, those bases in Europe are paid for by European governments. I'm not bragging about the US and find ANY bragging on military might or gains from this mess to be off-putting. Nearly two hundred people dead and a country destabilized, yay Putin?

I don't disagree with holding referendums, but I see no reason for this fighting.

Online Dashenka

Re: Ukraine
« Reply #310 on: June 25, 2014, 02:52:49 PM »
If Europe and the US had stayed out of it, there wouldn't be fighting and we already are in an Allied vs Soviet war, and it's all because of the EU and America's interference with business they have NOTHING to go for.

The only reason it won't come to full out war is because both leaders are wise enough to back down in time. America installs sanctions against Russia, Russia blocks gasflow to Europe and we're all merrily going on, the west doing what America wants and the rest of the world minding their own business.

It should be about what the people in Ukraine want, not what Russia, Europe or the US want. Everybody is screaming about democracy being so damn holy but the people in Ukraine that WANT to join Russia or at the very least get more autonomy from Kiev simply get shot and the world watches and does nothing.

Lastly, Putin isn't the one who gave the order to SHOOT AND KILL his own people, that was Kiev.

Offline Scribbles

Re: Ukraine
« Reply #311 on: June 25, 2014, 03:09:16 PM »
I understand you're passionate but please understand that I'm not defending the West, or Kiev. I've actually criticized both the US and EU several times throughout my comments. You also need to understand however that I'm not going to treat Putin any differently. He's been just as damaging to the situation as all others involved.

That said, I'm bowing out of this conversation as tensions are clearly running a bit high.

Online Dashenka

Re: Ukraine
« Reply #312 on: June 25, 2014, 03:17:50 PM »
I respect that and I said earlier that Putin putting tanks on the ground in Crim might not have been the best thing he ever did.

Let's go back to finding a solution for the problem, rather to point the finger as to who is the biggest bully, cause frankly, they all win :)

Offline Zakharra

Re: Ukraine
« Reply #313 on: June 25, 2014, 04:07:53 PM »
It's not open revolt here. Western press doesn't report accurate. Yes, there's little fighting and ambushes. But not gunfights in streets.

US isn't a winner in Ukraine. They're joke to us now.

My Dasha is right, only winner is Putin.

I hope now that Luhansk gets referendum, and changes get made without fighting. I would vote for joining Russia.

 Luhansk a Russian minority oblast, why would it vote to join Russia?

Offline Qt

Re: Ukraine
« Reply #314 on: June 25, 2014, 10:53:52 PM »
Luhansk a Russian minority oblast, why would it vote to join Russia?

People don't have to be of Russian ethnicity to realize that being within the new Ukraine is going to be mean severing economic ties with Russia. In fact the whole Ukraine has to do that. It's not going to be a pretty sight for the Ukrainians when the IMF comes over and makes Ukraine a debt slave.

Also Ukraine has always had some big discounts when it came to Russian gas that the rest of the EU could never hope to enjoy. Ukraine is going to lose that as well.

Offline Zakharra

Re: Ukraine
« Reply #315 on: June 25, 2014, 11:06:52 PM »
People don't have to be of Russian ethnicity to realize that being within the new Ukraine is going to be mean severing economic ties with Russia. In fact the whole Ukraine has to do that. It's not going to be a pretty sight for the Ukrainians when the IMF comes over and makes Ukraine a debt slave.

Also Ukraine has always had some big discounts when it came to Russian gas that the rest of the EU could never hope to enjoy. Ukraine is going to lose that as well.

 That doesn't mean they'd vote to be a part of Russia either. I don't see how it would be in their best interests to join Russia, a nation that is -not- know for being nice to minority populations. A least they know Ukraine, with Russia, I doubt the majority Ukrainian population would get that good of a deal (the Russians would be running things, not the ethnic Ukrainians). Besides the ethnic Russian population is no where near enough to vote them selves independent or even into Russia unless a -lot- of Ukrainian citizens vote to join Russia, or shenanigans happen on voting day (if any vote happens).

Online Dashenka

Re: Ukraine
« Reply #316 on: June 26, 2014, 03:48:01 AM »
Besides the ethnic Russian population is no where near enough to vote them selves independent or even into Russia unless a -lot- of Ukrainian citizens vote to join Russia, or shenanigans happen on voting day (if any vote happens).

That is where you are half wrong. True the ethnic Russian population is not big enough to vote for independence, the Ukrainian population that wants to join Russia is big enough.

Proof?

I hope now that Luhansk gets referendum, and changes get made without fighting. I would vote for joining Russia.

Kiev or Europe has never cared for the eastern parts of Ukraine. They took the coal coming from there, said thank you and that is about it. Russia has always been supporting that region.

That doesn't mean they'd vote to be a part of Russia either. I don't see how it would be in their best interests to join Russia, a nation that is -not- know for being nice to minority populations.

You don't, but most of the people in that region do. It's what the whole conflict is about in the first place. Not Russia invading Crim, the east of Ukraine wanting to join Russia or at least split off from Ukraine. The fact that you don't see how it's in their best interest shows how biased the media is when reporting about this subject. They portray Ukraine as paradise and Russia as some nasty rogue nation that violates human rights on a daily basis.

The truth is quite different.

Offline Zakharra

Re: Ukraine
« Reply #317 on: June 26, 2014, 08:47:21 AM »
That is where you are half wrong. True the ethnic Russian population is not big enough to vote for independence, the Ukrainian population that wants to join Russia is big enough.

Proof?

Kiev or Europe has never cared for the eastern parts of Ukraine. They took the coal coming from there, said thank you and that is about it. Russia has always been supporting that region.

You don't, but most of the people in that region do. It's what the whole conflict is about in the first place. Not Russia invading Crim, the east of Ukraine wanting to join Russia or at least split off from Ukraine. The fact that you don't see how it's in their best interest shows how biased the media is when reporting about this subject. They portray Ukraine as paradise and Russia as some nasty rogue nation that violates human rights on a daily basis.

The truth is quite different.

 You're assuming the part of the population that identifies itself as Ukrainian would vote to join Russia. That's a big assumption, Dashenka. I highly doubt they hate the Ukrainian government that much they would want to join Russian, where -they- would be the minority. It's sort of like voting yourself to be in a permanent second class status.

 Russia isn't exactly the nation with the best track record with human rights. It looks like Russia used the ethnic Russian people as an excuse to split off the Crimea area for the base there (and the massive oil and gas reserves) and is trying to do the same with the eastern regions to cut Ukraine and possibly the EU from the coal there. At the least it improves Russia's influence and ability to manipulate a reduced Ukraine to Russia's best interests, and if it can add the land to itself, so much the better, eh? News flash, Russia likely doesn't give a damn about the people there. What it wants is the resources in the region. Just like Ukraine (odd that a nation cannot care about or use the natural resources in it's -own- nation) or the EU.

And the Russian media isn't biased to report that the eastern region wants to join Russia (I don't think anyone would realistically believe it to be a valid vote), or that the Russian government isn't or hasn't been stirring the pot to try and get what it wants? You seem to be disputing the validity of any western media and more than willing to accept the validity of Russian media for some reason.

Online Dashenka

Re: Ukraine
« Reply #318 on: June 26, 2014, 09:36:43 AM »
LovelylilT lives in Luhansk, Ukraine. She already told you that she would vote to join Russia and she is Ukrainian. I don't just assume that that part of the population would vote to join Russia, I listen to them.

But what you are saying is that she is mad for wanting to join Russia?

If so many Ukrainians want to join Russia, you have to ask yourself why they want that. Perhaps that whole minorty oppression story you are so fond of is not entirely true? Or perhaps it is, but if it would be, imagine how terrible Ukraine would be for them to want to join Russia?

There certainly are benefits for Russia in annexing the eastern parts of Ukraine but it would mostly be humanitarian. It's not going to happen. Russia is not allowed to help the people in eastern Ukraine by the EU and America. Those same two are allowing the Ukrainian government to oppress and shoot at them.

Who's the terrible country now? Russia for wanting to help the people, or the EU and America for not allowing those people to be helped in a way they want?

Russian media is extremely biased, that's why I don't blindly trust everything they say and base my opinions on my experiences and those of people actually living there.

Offline lovelylilT

Re: Ukraine
« Reply #319 on: June 27, 2014, 09:02:48 PM »
Ukraine army tanks go through my city tonight, as do many soldiers. There's many of them, it looks like they go east, to city of Luhansk. I'm worried.  :-\

Online Dashenka

Re: Ukraine
« Reply #320 on: June 28, 2014, 03:52:40 AM »
BBC only reported about the seperatists shooting at the airport at Kramatorsk and only briefly mention that the rebel army 'claims' the national army is using the three day extention of the cease fire to bring troops into position.

Wonder when the world wakes up...

T... I know it's relatively safe but when things get too hot, please consider leaving. I'm 100% sure there is at least one person in New York you could temporarily stay and one person in London who'd gladly take you and Ana in until things settle down.

Which seeing how the EU signed a treaty with Ukraine, Moldova and another country, just to provoke, might take a while. When Russia 'provokes' the whole world gets mad, when Europe does the same, they get applause. Sickening.

Offline Scribbles

Re: Ukraine
« Reply #321 on: June 28, 2014, 04:53:38 AM »
The world is a big place. You and LovelylilT might claim you keep an open mind but when you're basically calling an entire country a joke or projecting a perceived view for the entire world, you have to admit that Russia's media might be affecting you more than you know.

*Edited this last bit out, I really don't want to get involved in this thread again...*
« Last Edit: June 28, 2014, 04:58:02 AM by Scribbles »

Online Dashenka

Re: Ukraine
« Reply #322 on: June 28, 2014, 05:55:36 AM »
Which country did I call a joke? I called the BBC biased, I stated that the only reason why the EU has signed the treaty with Ukraine is to provoke Russia and to create more unrest in the east of Ukraine.

I already said that Russian media is biased as well and that I take it with a pinch of salt (or actually a whole lot of pinches). I'm not affected by what I hear from the media but by what I hear and see from people who live in both countries and who I trust not to just talk with the media.

Offline Qt

Re: Ukraine
« Reply #323 on: June 28, 2014, 06:13:46 AM »
The world is a big place. You and LovelylilT might claim you keep an open mind but when you're basically calling an entire country a joke or projecting a perceived view for the entire world, you have to admit that Russia's media might be affecting you more than you know.

*Edited this last bit out, I really don't want to get involved in this thread again...*

I do agree that Russia's reporting is a bit biased. But from looking at both sides. Dare I say that the entire media machine in the west is effectively lying about the whole situation. Much like how Russia "invaded" Georgia back in 2008 when it was a response to Georgia invading two disputed areas that they actually didn't hold control over.

US funded about 5 billion dollars into Ukraine for this regime change. The legitimacy of how the current government came to being is very questionable. All these people seem to think that it is Russia doing the destabilization, but really all Russia is doing is a response to US/EU actions.

To be honest this whole situation doesn't even benefit the EU, so it's mostly the US that's trying to benefit. I really don't see why the EU would want another broken country to work with, because obviously the PIGS countries weren't enough The instability in Ukraine also put the pipelines going from Russia to Western Europe in some kind of threat.

As for the Ukrainian people, they're the ones that's going to realize how "European gas prices" and repaying the debt to the IMF isn't exactly the democracy they wanted.

Offline Scribbles

Re: Ukraine
« Reply #324 on: June 28, 2014, 06:33:53 AM »
Which country did I call a joke?

That would be LovelylilT, not you. She believes Americans are a joke. That said, you just painted the whole world as against Russia. It's not exactly a well-balanced view.

Quote
I already said that Russian media is biased as well and that I take it with a pinch of salt (or actually a whole lot of pinches). I'm not affected by what I hear from the media but by what I hear and see from people who live in both countries and who I trust not to just talk with the media.

Then you should know that the EU is pretty hated by a big majority, not just Russia but by Europeans as well, and these people aren't keen on bringing any more countries into the fold; including the Ukraine.

Quote
I called the BBC biased, I stated that the only reason why the EU has signed the treaty with Ukraine is to provoke Russia and to create more unrest in the east of Ukraine.

I disagree but I'm not interested in debating it, this perception has already been contradicted multiple times in this very thread. I'll go back and quote myself if you're interested although I would hope that you haven't been disregarding everything I've said. I'm not trying to be mean (nor am I trying to get involved in this thread again) just suggesting that while most media does hold an agenda, this doesn't make everything they say lies.

---------------

Hey QT, I pretty much agree with you on most counts. Sorry, I'd say more but I REALLY don't want to get too involved in this thread again. We can discuss it over PM, if you like?
« Last Edit: June 28, 2014, 07:01:39 AM by Scribbles »