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Author Topic: Ukraine  (Read 13735 times)

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Offline lovelylilT

Re: Russia Invades Crimea?
« Reply #275 on: June 16, 2014, 03:29:50 PM »
I agree Ukraine needs changes but what EU and United States offers won't help. They only care about their big companies want right now, not what my country needs in long term. They see us as pawn for using and not partner. 

Kyiv doesn't trust them now, the separatist movements doesn't either. And I don't think anyone listens to Unitef states for compromises any more. Kerry looks like all empty talk.

Offline BlytheTopic starter

Re: Russia Invades Crimea?
« Reply #276 on: June 16, 2014, 03:34:35 PM »
But this is not about who did what to who... this should be, from now on, what can be done to secure peace in Ukraine again and to make and keep it stable for the future.

The topic OP (original poster) chiming in; I don't believe I've posted in a while. It's been a pleasure reading everyone's opinions and thoughts on the matter! Just wanted to compliment everyone posting here for making this an interesting (and in a lot of ways, informative!) topic.

Anyways, quickly chiming in to mention I 100% agree with Dashenka's statement here.

Offline Dashenka

Re: Russia Invades Crimea?
« Reply #277 on: June 18, 2014, 03:44:15 AM »
Putin and Porochenko have been talking on the phone. I guess that's good news and Porochenko now ordered his troops to stand down to 'give Russian seperatists a change to leave the country or cease the fighting.'

I guess it's a start. He said that he'll have a plan for peace at the end of this week. Let's all pray and hope it's a good one that will last.

Offline lovelylilT

Re: Russia Invades Crimea?
« Reply #278 on: June 18, 2014, 07:13:46 AM »
I hope this for being true. I see even more soldiers here for lately, for both sides. When I go from Sievierodonetsk to Luhansk roads crawl full of them, Ukraine army even stopped my car on my way home. :P

I hope they listen to Porochenko, and that his plan is good for my country.

Offline kylie

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Re: Russia Invades Crimea?
« Reply #279 on: June 18, 2014, 09:39:53 AM »
The topic OP (original poster) chiming in; I don't believe I've posted in a while. It's been a pleasure reading everyone's opinions and thoughts on the matter! Just wanted to compliment everyone posting here for making this an interesting (and in a lot of ways, informative!) topic.

Anyways, quickly chiming in to mention I 100% agree with Dashenka's statement here.

          Then you might want to at least change the title of the thread. 

And it's just one reason and not the only reason but: I don't see y'all too concerned about who owns Crimea so much lately.

         (I could go on about how the corporations should give America back to the Americans too, sure...  But an invasion is still an invasion.)
« Last Edit: June 18, 2014, 09:41:16 AM by kylie »

Offline Dashenka

Re: Russia Invades Crimea?
« Reply #280 on: June 18, 2014, 09:45:38 AM »
          Then you might want to at least change the title of the thread. 

And it's just one reason and not the only reason but: I don't see y'all too concerned about who owns Crimea so much lately.



Crimea's always been Russia oriented. No blood was shed, nobody acknowledges it being part of Russia anyway. Why should anybody be concerned who owns Crimea when 100 km away, people are dying because they believe in something?

I think it's all about priorities at the moment. A peaceful region at peace is no concern to anyway whereas a country in a civil war is.

Offline BlytheTopic starter

Re: Russia Invades Crimea?
« Reply #281 on: June 18, 2014, 09:47:57 AM »
          Then you might want to at least change the title of the thread. 

True. Will do so. Changing it to just "Crimea" until I can think of a more cohesive title.

Edit: Changed title to "Ukraine," since the general topic is essentially all about Ukraine.
« Last Edit: June 18, 2014, 09:49:55 AM by Blythe »

Offline Zakharra

Re: Russia Invades Crimea?
« Reply #282 on: June 18, 2014, 11:56:54 AM »

Crimea's always been Russia oriented. No blood was shed, nobody acknowledges it being part of Russia anyway. Why should anybody be concerned who owns Crimea when 100 km away, people are dying because they believe in something?

I think it's all about priorities at the moment. A peaceful region at peace is no concern to anyway whereas a country in a civil war is.

 The rest of Ukraine isn't though, as far as I can tell. The Crimea region had the highest percentage of ethnic Russian people in it. The other areas, from what I have been able to see, have a much lower % of ethnic Russians in the population. Considerably below  50% from the wiki on Ukraine. Yet Russia is stirring up the eastern areas and it eying the Odessa area and Moldova for acquisitions even though those areas aren't majority Russian people. The % of ethnic Russians in an area, even a low %, only seems to be an excuse for Russia to try and pry those regions into its grasp because it wants it.

Offline Dashenka

Re: Russia Invades Crimea?
« Reply #283 on: June 18, 2014, 12:11:05 PM »
Yet Russia is stirring up the eastern areas and it eying the Odessa area and Moldova for acquisitions even though those areas aren't majority Russian people.

Says who?

Russia's charging Ukraine extra for gas, sending tanks out for free while they could be sold to other countries for money doesn't make sense. There is NO evidence about Russia stirring up the east of Ukraine and even less evidence of Russia wanting to own Moldova.

Please show me the evidence or could you stop insulting my country? It does hurt you know?

Offline Zakharra

Re: Russia Invades Crimea?
« Reply #284 on: June 18, 2014, 01:15:21 PM »
Says who?

Russia's charging Ukraine extra for gas, sending tanks out for free while they could be sold to other countries for money doesn't make sense. There is NO evidence about Russia stirring up the east of Ukraine and even less evidence of Russia wanting to own Moldova.

Please show me the evidence or could you stop insulting my country? It does hurt you know?

 Oh really? I'm saying what everyone thinks and what -is- happening. Russia IS acting imperialistically here. It wants to annex the areas I named,  you can't deny it would love to annex the Baltic states too. Russia lies all the time. They had to finally admit there were Russian troops in the Crimea 'helping' the separatists. They've lied about other things. Those tanks in eastern Ukraine? Russian. Why would Russia give old tanks to separatists? Because it furthers Russia's goals. If those areas become 'independent' don't you think the new 'government' won't vote to become a part of the Russian Federation? If Russia can get that by letting the separatists have some old tanks they wouldn't have been able to get otherwise, then it will have over tanks. There's also been claims of Russian RPGs/shoulder launched missiles and other munitions the separatists shouldn't have access too ending up in their hands.

So make no mistake Dashenka, Russia is up in this to its armpits. The government at least.  If you consider that insulting, then you should consider why it's being said in the first place *points to the actions of the Russian government*  I'm proud of my own country, but I acknowledge that it has made mistakes before and is making some now, and I am more than willing to let rip into it for things I think it does stupidly. But right now, like it or not, Russia -is- an active player in Ukraine and the rest of Eastern Europe, and given their history, there's very good reason to be wary and call Russia out on it's shenanigans.

Offline Dashenka

Re: Ukraine
« Reply #285 on: June 18, 2014, 01:45:27 PM »
Again you give me no actual facts or sources.

Putin has no interest in Moldova, the Baltic States, Ukraine or Alaska (which has been Russian too in the past). You obviously think so but the fact that you cannot give me any actual facts proves to me that your claim that you are saying what everyone else thinks is happening, is more out of weakness than to actually contribute to this conversation. It's also not actually right.

Russia is an active player in Ukraine because of Russian minorities being 'in trouble' in that country.

Out of respect for a guy from your country, active in this topic I will not go into all the stuff America has meddled in and I'm going to leave it at this, until you bring me some actual facts to support your rather bold and empty claims.

Offline lovelylilT

Re: Ukraine
« Reply #286 on: June 18, 2014, 03:33:19 PM »
I'm in Luhansk. Not all separatist groups are same, or work together. Russia definitely gives aid to some separatists, with weapons and munitions. But, I defanately don't think separatists are simple Russian puppets. And, not all want joining Russian Federation, many want being our own republic. Donetsk is similar. Saying that eastern Ukraine either only wants staying in Ukraine or joining Russia is too simple.

Offline Scribbles

Re: Ukraine
« Reply #287 on: June 23, 2014, 06:09:43 AM »
Just hopping in to toss out my own two cents on this debacle!

Personally, I feel that Russia should pressure (not arm) the separatists to lower their weapons and re-join the Ukraine, peacefully. They should then return the region of Crimea.

Once that is done, the US, Europe and Russia should pressure the Ukraine into allowing a referendum for all the regions which wish to depart, including Crimea, under threat of sanctions if they have to. This should all be done under observation by neutral international parties, not armed military guard.

Finally, I feel that the Ukraine (or what's left of it) should receive assistance in rebuilding from both the East and West for the unnecessary strain they were put through thanks to both sides.

Oh and I also want it to start raining lollipops and gumdrops every Tuesday, and for everyone in the world to gain super powers! And... and... unicorns are real! *mouth froth*

Silliness aside, I'm highly aware of the fat holes in such suggestions, with the biggest being that it requires enormous trust from some of the most paranoid governments in the world. There is also the question of Ukraine's sustainability without the oil rich region of Crimea.

Offline Dashenka

Re: Ukraine
« Reply #288 on: June 24, 2014, 12:26:25 PM »
Good news...

I think..

Putin has today asked the Duma to terminate the law that allows Russia to invade Ukraine to protect Russian citizens. The law was made a few months ago but now Putin asked for it to be terminated. Hopefully that will calm the seperatists down a bit and open the way for some constructive conversations between them and the Ukrainian government. And hopefully they will result in a Ukraine that's stable now and will remain stable for the future.

Fingers crossed that America and Europe will now stay out of it.

Offline Dice

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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #289 on: June 24, 2014, 12:40:06 PM »
If Russia pulls back then I am sure that the EU can as well. Right now though what you have is a fairly tense stand off when the first one to act openly losses. That's why you have RU troops in there with no markings. Open hostility is bad. But all the evidence pointed to where they had come from, accents, number plates, kit. It was not really a secret.

I am willing to bet none of the big actors want a war here, the issue is what about the pawns. The "Separatists" being largely from locations outside of the Ukraine and can be unpredictable. Also, when young men taste blood, some get a lust for it.

The whole situation stinks. The worst part is that the people whom seem to get the lest say right now are the ones living in this mess.

Offline Scribbles

Re: Ukraine
« Reply #290 on: June 25, 2014, 09:40:04 AM »
It's difficult to accept Putin's gesture as little more than a pretty show when you know he can re-enact the dumb law within the blink of an eye.

Offline Dashenka

Re: Ukraine
« Reply #291 on: June 25, 2014, 10:22:58 AM »
Whether or not the law is dumb or not is questionable. Fact that he has shown goodwill to terminate it, is a big step in the right direction.

Offline Dice

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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #292 on: June 25, 2014, 10:34:34 AM »
That's bull. The law was unquestionably dumb. Passing a law that says "I can take my guns and storm your house" is dumb regardless of who does it and is bad for stability.

I will agree with you on this being a step in the right direction though. But this should never have come up at all. Granted, if the idea was to make a threat and then look good by removing the threat, then Putin has done very well. Since he gains much in doing effectively nothing other than promising to follow international law. (Something he should be doing to start with.)

Offline Scribbles

Re: Ukraine
« Reply #293 on: June 25, 2014, 10:45:08 AM »
Whether or not the law is dumb or not is questionable.

I disagree, if it were at all tenable then perhaps all countries involved should enact their own "Invade the Ukraine" laws?

If you're speaking from a Russian point of view however then you're correct, the law wasn't dumb and has secured Russia an enormous resource. From that perspective, I suppose the Ukraine's fate really doesn't matter in the scheme of things. That pretty much sums up Putin's "goodwill" in the end.

Offline Dashenka

Re: Ukraine
« Reply #294 on: June 25, 2014, 10:49:13 AM »
I am Russian and I am speaking from a Russian point of view. I didn't say I agree, I said it was questionable because I know the history of Crimea. It had nothing to do with invading Ukraine, it was to protect Russian citizens from exactly what is happening now in Eastern Ukraine. These people are mostly Ukranian, with a sympathy for Russia. People on Crim are mostly Russian.

Offline Scribbles

Re: Ukraine
« Reply #295 on: June 25, 2014, 11:13:38 AM »
I know the history too and I can't say it makes me shake my head any less at such a law, if protecting citizens was all it took to goad countries into invasion then the world would be thrown into chaos. Britain has all the reason to storm into Zimbabwe with such a pretence. The diamonds would simply be the cherry on the cake for the new empire.

I also highly doubt that Russian citizens were at the forefront of Putin's mind. He was thinking about securing resources, securing land, protecting the Black fleet.
« Last Edit: June 25, 2014, 11:23:49 AM by Scribbles »

Offline Dashenka

Re: Ukraine
« Reply #296 on: June 25, 2014, 11:16:17 AM »
He isn't exactly known for his bouts of kindness to his own people.

Yay... more 'facts'.

I give up.

Offline Scribbles

Re: Ukraine
« Reply #297 on: June 25, 2014, 11:23:38 AM »
...

You sound as if you're taking this a bit personally. Okay, I retract that last sentence, I even edited it out.

Offline Dashenka

Re: Ukraine
« Reply #298 on: June 25, 2014, 11:37:02 AM »
What I mean is that everybody seems to know the situation better than somebody who's been to Ukraine multiple times and has lived in Russia most of her life. Opinions are fine but base them on facts, not on things you think you know.

Ask yourself this, and everybody else as well...

If Ukraine was so valuable for Russia because of it's resources, how comes the country is nearly bankrupt? If it has so many resources, surely it would thrife on export of those resources?

The black fleet could have easily been moved to Ghelendzhik or Novorossiysk. True it's more convenient to keep it at the base Russia build in Ukraine, but to upgrade the previously mentioned harbours would have taken a little money and a little time and a lot less fuss. Of course the base at Sevastopol would have to be demolished because it's Russian and Ukraine doesn't like anything Russian. According to newspapers.

The reason why 'Russia invaded Crimea' is to protect the vast majority of the Russian people living there. Had they not done that.. well the Ukrainian army is shooting at it's own people in Slavyansk and Luhansk, I think we all know what would have happened in Crimea to the Russian people no? The people in Crimea wanted to be back to Russia again and I thought that's what a democracy is about. Listen to the people.

America and the EU needed a new scapegoat now that everything in Syria has calmed down (at least according to the 'leaders') and Russia offered them a nice handle by protecting Russian citizens. I've said this before but I will say it again.
Putin's biggest concern is to keep Russia together and to keep the majority of the Russians happy. He cares about the internal politics because he was elected BY the Russians, FOR the Russians. Unlike Obama, who was elected BY the Americans FOR the entire world or the EU leaders who are elected by God knows who for God knows who.

Offline Oniya

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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #299 on: June 25, 2014, 11:48:30 AM »
If Ukraine was so valuable for Russia because of it's resources, how comes the country is nearly bankrupt? If it has so many resources, surely it would thrife on export of those resources?

If South Africa is so valuable because of its resources, how come the people there have to work long hours for low or no wages?  Surely, they should thrive on the export of those resources.