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Author Topic: Ukraine  (Read 13721 times)

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Offline Avis habilis

Re: Russia Invades Crimea?
« Reply #200 on: April 03, 2014, 10:47:48 AM »
Gorram rules lawyer.

Offline kylie

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Re: Russia Invades Crimea?
« Reply #201 on: April 07, 2014, 06:48:15 PM »
            As far as the uniforms, I was thinking not so much "is this legal" but more:  Is this now going to be considered acceptable and normal...  Or are people going to receive Russia more as a rogue state for doing it so blatantly when it comes to invading (and keeping) a whole territory -- and then for appearing to make it a modus operandi that might be used again?  I didn't (I don't think; and I don't now) mean that it would be definitively 'settled' on paper in a court of international law, which is anyway sometimes more a court of the victors after a huge conflagration years previously.

Quote from: Avis habilis
Gorram rules lawyer.

         I'm not familiar with the game, but I google and hear something like, which is more ambiguous (or maybe disingenuous): the rules, or the players?  Is that it?

Quote from: Valerian
It does seem like it should be illegal, doesn't it?  :/  But Putin apparently does his homework...

            I don't know...  At some point when so many think something was illegal, it gets close to a question of what is the spirit of the law, anyway.  It's not clear-cut in my mind, but rather a genuine (aka perhaps insoluble) disagreement. 

            Of course if you're a lawyer, there may be some room for fiddling with the boundaries of actual application.  During the Second World War Battle of the Bulge, the Germans sent in troops with American uniforms to misdirect US units.  Later, the courts ruled that since they were not tasked to engage in large-scale offensive operations but rather in sabotage, they were acting more like spies instead of combat troops and thus were not required (as combat units would be) to show their colors immediately upon attacking. 

            I'm not sure whether there was a requirement in their mind to show your original flag after simply occupying ground or not, but I think overrunning Ukrainian bases with defenders inside, should probably involve enough damage and intimidation, not to mention the occasional shooting of persons, that it's close enough.

« Last Edit: April 07, 2014, 06:52:28 PM by kylie »

Offline kylie

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Re: Russia Invades Crimea?
« Reply #202 on: April 07, 2014, 07:08:04 PM »
Quote from: Callie

           I seem to recall a treaty promise that NATO wouldn't accept former Soviet states as Members or base sites back in the '90s. That clearly is being tossed out.

        I'm not quite sure about this, myself.  Could you point to an actual treaty?  Here's a perhaps interesting page by Matlock -- I gather a high profile, career diplomat, saying there was no such treaty.  (With a bit of added fussing that the parties and conditions of the time hardly remained constant or accountable.)

        I was in high school.  I just remember feeling it was all pretty surreal.  I do recall some commentators saying the Russians wanted such a commitment.  And personally I was thinking more realpolitik style that it would be kind of silly to sign onto any such thing:  Whatever would we do then if they did reoccupy Eastern Europe, and obviously some former Warsaw Pact countries would think we had been a puffy, paper tiger for the last couple generations if we wouldn't protect them when the Soviet Union finally collapsed.  The whole situation struck me as rather ridiculous to be negotiating any such thing. 

       However, I was a child when both sides were still publicly spouting fire and brimstone.  That was most of what I heard on TV, and I wasn't hardly educated in much of the more complicated history of Eastern Europe or the Near East.  (I still tend to imagine many American high schools must be like mine was, and can't quit spending the better part of three years on just early US history with a huge focus on North America?!)...  And I didn't hear all that much about actual negotiations in the news at all then.  Or for much of the late Cold War when so much was being discussed very quietly -- perhaps even away from the formal leaders.  Some months ago, I ran into a former Australian spy (he says, who am I to doubt it) who claims the Russian and Western intel services had a semi-regular conference in Central Asia where as much as prevailing circumstances would allow, they sat down and tried to avoid World War Three by setting certain rules among themselves every so often.   ::)

« Last Edit: April 07, 2014, 07:15:20 PM by kylie »

Offline Oniya

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Re: Russia Invades Crimea?
« Reply #203 on: April 07, 2014, 07:12:16 PM »
         I'm not familiar with the game, but I google and hear something like, which is more ambiguous (or maybe disingenuous): the rules, or the players?  Is that it?

Gorram = minced version of 'goddamned'

Rules lawyer = one who learns the rules so thoroughly that they can find all the loopholes.

Offline kylie

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Re: Russia Invades Crimea?
« Reply #204 on: April 07, 2014, 07:17:04 PM »
Gorram = minced version of 'goddamned'

Rules lawyer = one who learns the rules so thoroughly that they can find all the loopholes.

         The second one I knew.  But if you google what you wrote, the first thing that comes up is a forum on "Firefly: The Game."  Shrugs.   ;)

Sometimes a few words of actual argument or conclusion to go with the slang (or often, slogan) goes a long way?
« Last Edit: April 07, 2014, 07:18:40 PM by kylie »

Offline Chris Brady

Re: Russia Invades Crimea?
« Reply #205 on: April 07, 2014, 07:37:52 PM »
Rules lawyer = one who learns the rules so thoroughly that they can find all the loopholes.
Not quite accurate.  A rules lawyer uses the rules system not to just find loopholes, but to confuse everyone and manipulating said rules into a way that's beneficial for them and them only, while making it SEEM like it's the way the rules are supposed to work, as opposed as to the actual intent.

It appears that Crimea and the Eastern parts of Ukraine WANT to be Russian.


Offline kylie

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Re: Russia Invades Crimea?
« Reply #206 on: April 07, 2014, 09:17:16 PM »
Not quite accurate.  A rules lawyer uses the rules system not to just find loopholes, but to confuse everyone and manipulating said rules into a way that's beneficial for them and them only, while making it SEEM like it's the way the rules are supposed to work, as opposed as to the actual intent.
        Yeah, I'd say there's something to that too.  Although there's a fair bit of overlap anyway.  Lawyers generally work by making laws try to apply to situations in the ways that serve their clients, quite apart from whether or not the original intent may have covered that particular contingency.

Quote
It appears that Crimea and the Eastern parts of Ukraine WANT to be Russian.
          Now this is pretty dubious.  There have been reports of protestors for remaining in Ukraine being violently attacked.  This just might, indirectly, happen partly because a lot of people don't like the idea...  But on the face of it, it shows that some who are in favor of Russian control, are willing to use violence to get what they want.  Or more violence, when you add it to a military occupation by a vastly superior force and forced eviction of Ukrainian government units.

Offline Chris Brady

Re: Russia Invades Crimea?
« Reply #207 on: April 07, 2014, 09:21:20 PM »
Actually, Kylie, the issue is that there are reports of people embracing the fact that the Russians are coming.  Yes, there's a lot of people not wanting, but just yesterday?  This morning?  There was a report that a bunch of Pro-Russian groups taking over the second largest city of Ukraine.  Now admittedly, the opposition side is claiming that it was a plant or a setup, but I think it's more in the middle.  Yes, some people were planted there, but there's enough who WANT to be Russian again that they're going along with it.

Offline kylie

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Re: Russia Invades Crimea?
« Reply #208 on: April 07, 2014, 09:25:00 PM »
         More attempts at secession referendum, this time Donetsk.

Quote
The White House spokesman, Jay Carney, told reporters: "We are concerned about several escalatory moves in Ukraine over the weekend. We see these as a result of increased Russian pressure on Ukraine. We saw groups of pro-Russian demonstrators take over government buildings in the eastern cities of Kharkiv, Donetsk and Luhansk.

       There are certain concerns about what sort of relationship Kiev has with the east...  Though I'm not clear that secession or joining Russia is the only obvious path (or even a path most would necessarily desire) to deal with it.

Quote
In Donetsk and other eastern Ukrainian cities, which are largely Russian-speaking, there is real discontent with the new government in Kiev, which has been in power since President Viktor Yanukovych fled at the culmination of months of street protests. Nevertheless, the region is far less pro-Russian than Crimea, and analysts say Russia would find it harder and more complicated to introduce troops there.

Offline kylie

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Re: Russia Invades Crimea?
« Reply #209 on: April 07, 2014, 09:31:05 PM »
Quote from: =Chris Brady
Yes, there's a lot of people not wanting, but just yesterday?  This morning?  There was a report that a bunch of Pro-Russian groups taking over the second largest city of Ukraine. 
        See above.  Even if you were right about Crimea as far as a popular vote might go (which we will never quite know, since your vote took place at Russian gunpoint in the actual event)...  I'm no expert, but these might be apples and oranges.  The two regions are not exactly the same.

Quote
Now admittedly, the opposition side is claiming that it was a plant or a setup, but I think it's more in the middle.  Yes, some people were planted there, but there's enough who WANT to be Russian again that they're going along with it.
          Even if true, it's not going to be accepted by the West when done through a military invasion.  And it sends a message to Europe that Putin appears interested in once again forcefully absorbing his neighbors, whoever knows where it will stop.  Not a very happy situation, whatever he intends.

Offline Oniya

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Re: Russia Invades Crimea?
« Reply #210 on: April 07, 2014, 09:43:14 PM »
         The second one I knew.  But if you google what you wrote, the first thing that comes up is a forum on "Firefly: The Game."  Shrugs.   ;)

Sometimes a few words of actual argument or conclusion to go with the slang (or often, slogan) goes a long way?

Wasn't my post - just trying to clarify said slang.  :-)

Offline kylie

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Re: Russia Invades Crimea?
« Reply #211 on: April 07, 2014, 09:56:03 PM »
Quote from: Oniya
       Wasn't my post - just trying to clarify said slang.  :-)
         Ah, thanks...  I think.

Edits.  Bleh.  Proxy cut out and double posted some stuff in here...

          Lavrov, for his part, is hardly fooling anyone when he says Russia is "not imposing anything" and it 'has to act militarily' (would be what is actually seeming to follow), in the very same sentence. 
Quote

We are not imposing anything on anyone, we just see that if it is not done, Ukraine will continue to spiral into crisis with unpredictable consequences.

           I think he's really digging himself a hole there -- because, someone is going to have to define what exactly "it" is going to be.  But this is much the same sort of impossible line Putin has been fielding.  "Not Russian troops!" --  And now, 'They'll be away from the Ukrainian border soon.'  (Said to Merkel last week -- But they are not moving, at least not yet.)  Russia obviously is not calling an invasion an invasion.  And just now it seems to be setting itself up in actions, not words, for another land grab.  So others will fill in the blanks themselves. 
« Last Edit: April 07, 2014, 10:00:01 PM by kylie »

Offline Chris Brady

Re: Russia Invades Crimea?
« Reply #212 on: April 09, 2014, 12:35:58 AM »
Uh, just today (well, yesterday EST) the Pro-Russian faction of Ukraine just declared their section 'Independent'.  I can't find the article, but Donetsk was apparently the 'center' of it.  And I think they're gathering around the ousted politician, whose name escapes me.  I'm sorry for being vague, but I read this about 13 hours ago, and my memory being crap...

Offline kylie

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Re: Russia Invades Crimea?
« Reply #213 on: April 09, 2014, 04:42:30 AM »
           "Uh" (oh so chummy "I must be right" is that?)  Scratch that line, as staff consider it overly pedantic (aka I gather, fussy about minor things, for those who don't frequently rummage through meta-language for such words.

            Is it supposed to be obvious how or why everyone should just let them?

            Faction, section, whoever.  I have no idea how many people they actually represent (or not) from such titles -- nor what their principles are.  Yeah, toss in some details maybe...

           And the whole thing just feels tainted when Russia has gone and invaded one region and put troops on the border of the rest.  Plenty of warnings of instigators from Russia running around the inside as well.  It may or may not turn into half the country seceding or Russia storming all the way to Moldova for that matter...  But don't think everyone is going to agree it's justified just because some people wanted that and a lot of guys with guns and batons (or insert your favorite building-storming weapon here) came in to stir up trouble and try to make it happen.  I'm sure some Russian news will be happy to try to "compare" it to months of huge crowds on the Maidan, but somehow I don't think it's quite the same context at all.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2014, 06:17:48 PM by kylie »

Online BlytheTopic starter

Re: Russia Invades Crimea?
« Reply #214 on: April 09, 2014, 06:34:10 PM »
Uh, just today (well, yesterday EST) the Pro-Russian faction of Ukraine just declared their section 'Independent'.  I can't find the article, but Donetsk was apparently the 'center' of it.  And I think they're gathering around the ousted politician, whose name escapes me.  I'm sorry for being vague, but I read this about 13 hours ago, and my memory being crap...

Do you remember where you read it? I could try to find it if I had an idea where to look--I'd very much like to read  the article where you found this if I can find it; it seems like some pretty big news.

Offline Chris Brady

Re: Russia Invades Crimea?
« Reply #215 on: April 09, 2014, 10:25:55 PM »
Do you remember where you read it? I could try to find it if I had an idea where to look--I'd very much like to read  the article where you found this if I can find it; it seems like some pretty big news.
Not original source, but...

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26919928

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/apr/07/ukraine-crisis-pro-russia-activists-declare-independence-donetsk

Offline consortium11

Re: Russia Invades Crimea?
« Reply #216 on: April 10, 2014, 07:09:18 AM »
While the Russian involvement obviously (and deservedly) gets the headlines, it's also worth noting that the very fragile alliance that swept Yanukovych from power is shattering. The highlight recently was a punch up in Parliament between deputies from Svoboda (the far right nationalist... and somewhat nazi... party which was at the forefront of ousting Yanukovych) and Communist party leader Petro Symonenko after he accused them of playing into Russia's hands.



It was always going to be difficult to keep together the "unholy alliance" that took power in Ukraine; it is after all a grouping which contained pretty much out-and-out nazi's, hardcore nationalists, communists and more traditional liberals. One only has to look back to the post-Orange Revolution in the mid-2000's to see how things can break apart... and in that case the likes of Yushchenko and Tymoshenko had far more in common than the far right and far left currently do.

It's also worth noting that Symonenko does somewhat have a point. Considering that Yanukovych was largely forced from power due to street protests and the occupation of public buildings the current government is in a difficult position arguing that similar protests in other areas are not legitimate. It's a pretty awful situation for all involved.

Offline kylie

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Re: Russia Invades Crimea?
« Reply #217 on: April 11, 2014, 02:11:28 AM »
Quote from: consortium11
Considering that Yanukovych was largely forced from power due to street protests and the occupation of public buildings the current government is in a difficult position arguing that similar protests in other areas are not legitimate. It's a pretty awful situation for all involved.
        I don't claim to know all the background, and I also don't mean to deny that the rest may well be a mess at some level.  I do think there should be more discussion about what exactly were the status or issues of ethnic Russians likely to be in the "new" Ukraine after Yanukovich.  That is, if and when anyone got that far.

        Still...  With all that being said, I feel like people are sometimes trying to draw a direct comparison between 1) very lengthy, huge street protests in Kiev with a lot of public discussion and 2) a situation in Crimea or Donetsk where a small number of armed people stormed government buildings either at nearly the same time as or after Russia invaded one and put troops on the border of the other.  I don't think these are very comparable situations. 

         It could be true not everyone in Kiev are angels, but that doesn't necessarily mean that the best thing for all involved is obviously for Russia to intervene and start setting up annexations or Abkhazia-style protectorates.  Doing that also happens to mean taking away whole chunks of the Ukrainian economy from everyone in Ukraine, making naval bases free for Russia rather than leased from Kiev per those agreements Putin fought so hard for and protestors were not so happy he won with such generous terms, and taking responsibility for (or is that capture of) other groups such as the pro-unity factions and the Tartars.  It isn't as if the only thing at stake is how well integrated the ethnic Russians in these regions feel.   

          And Russia with its Duma changing laws right on the eve of a military invasion, has seemed very keen on intervening and pushing things along.  They have also told their people (or perhaps I should say, many of Putin's vocal supporters online somehow seem to believe?) that the US has spies and gunmen running all over the region rocking Kiev something along the lines of 2011 Afghanistan, when all the Western press mentions is a few bureaucrats trying to negotiate trade deals and offering loans.   Now someone has to be wrong there.  Putin's supporters claim the West is lying about his troops on the border (with their hidden license plates and all the reports about them) in the same way that Bush Jr. lied about WMD "found" in Iraq.  Well, I'd like to see some proof they haven't manufactured the whole notion of Blackwater mercenaries, a CIA "army" of paramilitary invaders, or whoever they think it really was, taking over Kiev --- that is, rather than a popular rebellion. 

        The fact that some of the leaders of the rebellion or the aftermath of it might be messy, doesn't mean it wasn't understandable that it happened.  And now we see Putin forcefully taking some of the things the rebellion intended to protest or perhaps undo.  Surprise, surprise?
 
« Last Edit: April 11, 2014, 02:15:58 AM by kylie »

Offline Zakharra

Re: Russia Invades Crimea?
« Reply #218 on: April 15, 2014, 04:16:05 PM »
Do not link to the Daily Pedophile. -Vek

 Forgive my language, but as someone once quoted: 'the shit's just got real.' Something will happen from this, but it looks like the Ukrainian government isn't going to passively sit by and let the pro-Russian dissidents run amok anymore. I'm not sure what the Russian response will be, but it raises the bar now. If Russia moves it, it will be harder for them to justify biting off more chunks of Ukraine when the Ukrainians are putting down/removing disruptive dissidents. A person I know of on another forum I look at lives in the eastern area, he lives in Donetsk and has been giving us what information he can. It's kind of scary to read the posts of someone who is in the area this stuff is going down in.  I and the rest of the forum are hoping he makes it through alright.
« Last Edit: April 17, 2014, 03:46:44 PM by Vekseid »

Online TheGlyphstone

Re: Russia Invades Crimea?
« Reply #219 on: April 15, 2014, 04:55:03 PM »
Is that supported anywhere except the Daily Mail?

Offline Zakharra

Re: Russia Invades Crimea?
« Reply #220 on: April 15, 2014, 05:05:56 PM »
 I've heard it at the top of the hour news reports on the radio and on the news sites online, as well as by the person who lives there. It's happening. The Ukraine is moving troops in to retake the areas the pro-Russian secessionists have taken.

Online TheGlyphstone

Re: Russia Invades Crimea?
« Reply #221 on: April 15, 2014, 05:10:36 PM »
Just checking. They do have a....reputation.

Offline Zakharra

Re: Russia Invades Crimea?
« Reply #222 on: April 15, 2014, 05:15:47 PM »
 They might, I honestly don't know if they do or don't, but just googling Ukraine crisis or Ukraine news and there's a whole slew of confirming reports.  At least it's not having one side heading to victory riding unicorns in the snow. Either way, they will probably be playing fair with this news for now.

Offline lovelylilT

Re: Russia Invades Crimea?
« Reply #223 on: April 16, 2014, 09:38:48 AM »
It's very real. My family lives in Ukraine, I may go back for living there soon. Soldiers move many places in the East. I don't know why this surprises anyone.

Offline gaggedLouise

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Re: Russia Invades Crimea?
« Reply #224 on: April 16, 2014, 10:32:52 AM »
It's very real. My family lives in Ukraine, I may go back for living there soon. Soldiers move many places in the East. I don't know why this surprises anyone.

Yep, it is indeed moving towards the kind of confrontations that both sides (especially the Ukrainian army and navy) really worked to avoid in Crimea. And for sure Ukraine is no match at all, in military terms, for Russia. Will it actually heat up during Easter?? That's a more sacred time of year in Russia and Ukraine than in most other countries.  :-(