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Author Topic: Ukraine  (Read 13762 times)

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Offline ShadowFox89

Re: Russia Invades Crimea?
« Reply #150 on: March 16, 2014, 11:48:20 AM »
EU and United States don't support Ukraine in any way that means something. They say pretty words and offer some money but they don't really care about Ukraine. It's very disappointing.

 There isn't much we can do. Internationally, the US is still a joke from our actions in the 2000's. At home, politicians are either scared shitless of losing their spot in the House/Senate or would just love to start lobbing cruise missiles at Crimea and Russia.

Offline Neysha

Re: Russia Invades Crimea?
« Reply #151 on: March 16, 2014, 01:21:14 PM »
For taking such a brave stance against Fascists, the Russians sure aren't tolerant of other religions fomenting discord. Apparently they're not just preoccupied with threatening and intimidating Crimean Tatars anymore.

Meanwhile in Russia, Starfleet cadets march in support of annexation of Crimea.



Oh wait... those are Young Communists, my mistake.

So did you vote Yes on the referendum or Yes? Remember if you don't vote, you can't play. ;)



Offline RazgrizAce

Re: Russia Invades Crimea?
« Reply #152 on: March 16, 2014, 01:38:43 PM »
There isn't much we can do. Internationally, the US is still a joke from our actions in the 2000's. At home, politicians are either scared shitless of losing their spot in the House/Senate or would just love to start lobbing cruise missiles at Crimea and Russia.

Beside that the USA are also treading lightly because of how this can cause WW3. Lots of countries would be pulled in due to alliances (same as WW1) but the big difference is bigger weapons with a lot farther range.

Offline Deamonbane

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Re: Russia Invades Crimea?
« Reply #153 on: March 16, 2014, 04:02:11 PM »
I doubt that there will be war, although I am not blind and see the very large possibility. It seems more like something of a pissing contest between Putin and Obama. The US and the UN against Russia, China and allies. Whoever backs down will lose face. Putin wants to show to the world that he's tough.

Offline Oniya

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Re: Russia Invades Crimea?
« Reply #154 on: March 16, 2014, 04:47:19 PM »
That was one of the things that made the Cuban Missile Crisis such a powder keg.

Four minutes to midnight on a sunny day...

Offline SGTDan

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Re: Russia Invades Crimea?
« Reply #155 on: March 16, 2014, 06:55:24 PM »
That was one of the things that made the Cuban Missile Crisis such a powder keg.

Four minutes to midnight on a sunny day...


Online Callie Del Noire

Re: Russia Invades Crimea?
« Reply #156 on: March 16, 2014, 08:17:35 PM »
I doubt that there will be war, although I am not blind and see the very large possibility. It seems more like something of a pissing contest between Putin and Obama. The US and the UN against Russia, China and allies. Whoever backs down will lose face. Putin wants to show to the world that he's tough.

Don't automatically assume that China will back Russia. They have a lot of 'ethinic mixes' that they share a border with Russian Possessions. It would be very very easy (in their pragmatic mind) for Russia to use this all as justification down the line to grab some of THEIR territory.

Unlikely, but China don't trust anyone. :D

Offline Oniya

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Re: Russia Invades Crimea?
« Reply #157 on: March 16, 2014, 08:21:42 PM »
[Video]

I was thinking more of this one:


Online Qt

Re: Russia Invades Crimea?
« Reply #158 on: March 16, 2014, 08:29:51 PM »
Beside that the USA are also treading lightly because of how this can cause WW3. Lots of countries would be pulled in due to alliances (same as WW1) but the big difference is bigger weapons with a lot farther range.

The starting of another conflict is very unlikely, even in the beginning of the crisis, the harshest of talks the US and EU had done were "tighter Visa restrictions", "sanctions" and "isolation" of Russia. There is seriously no benefit to US or EU going to war, they are not in position nor have any reason to intervene militarily to what is effectively a backyard issue of Russia.

In fact even sanctions seem unlikely given economic relationships of Russia and the EU.

Don't automatically assume that China will back Russia. They have a lot of 'ethinic mixes' that they share a border with Russian Possessions. It would be very very easy (in their pragmatic mind) for Russia to use this all as justification down the line to grab some of THEIR territory.

Unlikely, but China don't trust anyone. :D

China hasn't really backed Russia, simply because China doesn't want to openly piss of US in something they have no gain in saying.

What China and Russia share is common is they both think the US actively goes forth to undermine their interests, which is pretty much a given fact.

All this talk of Russian expansion is just off, the thing that Russia wants to secure is the naval base in Crimea, they are not going for more land grabs that mean very little.

Online Callie Del Noire

Re: Russia Invades Crimea?
« Reply #159 on: March 16, 2014, 09:32:58 PM »
The starting of another conflict is very unlikely, even in the beginning of the crisis, the harshest of talks the US and EU had done were "tighter Visa restrictions", "sanctions" and "isolation" of Russia. There is seriously no benefit to US or EU going to war, they are not in position nor have any reason to intervene militarily to what is effectively a backyard issue of Russia.

In fact even sanctions seem unlikely given economic relationships of Russia and the EU.

China hasn't really backed Russia, simply because China doesn't want to openly piss of US in something they have no gain in saying.

What China and Russia share is common is they both think the US actively goes forth to undermine their interests, which is pretty much a given fact.

All this talk of Russian expansion is just off, the thing that Russia wants to secure is the naval base in Crimea, they are not going for more land grabs that mean very little.

Nope, Putin is rebuilding the country he once served. He's already taken a bite out of Georgia, and he's looking Crimea, and if he gets that. .well there are concentrations of Russians all over the former eastern bloc to be used as justification for snapping up prime real estate that he wants. Those were the same arguments that were used with Hitler when he took a bite out of Czechoslovakia. Down that road.. well it will be peaceful as long as he thinks he can get things peacefully.

Then it will be bloody when it needs to be. Amazing how Georgia needed invading a few years back.

Online Qt

Re: Russia Invades Crimea?
« Reply #160 on: March 16, 2014, 10:03:07 PM »
Nope, Putin is rebuilding the country he once served. He's already taken a bite out of Georgia, and he's looking Crimea, and if he gets that. .well there are concentrations of Russians all over the former eastern bloc to be used as justification for snapping up prime real estate that he wants. Those were the same arguments that were used with Hitler when he took a bite out of Czechoslovakia. Down that road.. well it will be peaceful as long as he thinks he can get things peacefully.

Then it will be bloody when it needs to be. Amazing how Georgia needed invading a few years back.

I think it's less about Putin trying to rebuild the USSR and more about the US and EU trying to encircle Russia by expanding NATO. Let's not forget that when the cold war was over there was an agreement that NATO would not expand.

Look at NATO now? Poland is in it, the Baltic states are in it. What's happening in Ukraine right now is just another plot to put Ukraine under the influence the influence of the west. It does not benefit Ukraine all that much.

To talk of Russia being expansionist but then ignore NATO expanding and the involvement of the US in various countries in the world it really has not reason to get involved with is just hypocritical.

Offline kylie

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Re: Russia Invades Crimea?
« Reply #161 on: March 17, 2014, 12:13:12 AM »
All this talk of Russian expansion is just off, the thing that Russia wants to secure is the naval base in Crimea, they are not going for more land grabs that mean very little.
        I've seen this sort of comment here and there...  But I have not seen documentation that the new Ukrainian government was going to somehow undo the whole base lease anywhere.  Have you?  I do understand the renewal of the lease happened in a turbulent time before the former president was ejected...  But was the opposition actually campaigning not to renew the lease, as a major platform?  I'm not really clear about that. 

         Apart from that...  No military threat to speak of, and Russia's taking over a whole region.  That is not simply and legally reinforcing where they normally had treaty rights to add troops on the base anyway.  I get more the impression that Putin wants people to believe everyone with arms in Ukraine is either a Nazi, or supporting Russian intervention.  But if you don't buy that, then why would he need so many more troops deployed all over the region to "secure" bases that already have thousands and haven't been attacked at all?

         Going or not going for more land...  There is the little matter of Lavrov saying Russia may be "forced" to "protect" people in Eastern Ukraine such as Donetsk...  Which is the same language used about Crimea.  That really comes off more like going, so far.

          Finally, while there may be a certain tradition of major powers claiming greater rights to meddle with their close neighbors, relying on that alone as justification for whatever Putin feels like...  Well, that would suggest that the US has every right to attack Venezuela, or Cuba for that matter.  And just how close or far is a "backyard" anyway in the age of long-range radar (remember that little system proposed for Poland) and cruise missiles?  Could get a bit out of hand fast, for lack of ethical basis.  At an extreme someone could argue that you know, Japan was right in the Pacific War and actually eastern Siberia is their "near abroad" and of much more value to them than to very distant Moscow...
« Last Edit: March 18, 2014, 05:15:50 AM by kylie »

Offline kylie

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Re: Russia Invades Crimea?
« Reply #162 on: March 17, 2014, 12:43:57 AM »
         Poking around a bit quick...  I see that the base lease renewal was unpopular with at least some of the opposition (I haven't read enough yet to guess just how much or with how much popular support, though I gather there was at least some movement against it).

         However, I'm still not clear about whether Yanukovich being out would mean Kiev would obviously move to undo the agreement. 

         At any rate, saying you can force your neighbors to let you hold onto a port as long as you feel like cause you've got the biggest army in the region, is kind of nasty.  Maybe I could play devil's advocate to Callie and say, maybe China "needs" a chunk of eastern Russia too while we're all at it...  There must be a few Chinese engineers or settlers up there to "protect" somewhere.

Online Qt

Re: Russia Invades Crimea?
« Reply #163 on: March 17, 2014, 01:28:18 AM »
I'm not saying what Russia did was right. I'm just saying I can understand why they did what they did given the circumstances.

This video pretty much sums up everything quite nicely. Though it's really long.


Online Callie Del Noire

Re: Russia Invades Crimea?
« Reply #164 on: March 17, 2014, 10:50:32 AM »
I am still listening to this but I noticed that the speaker danced RIGHT over that a major reason that the government is broke is that the Ukranian government hasn't passed all the energy costs to the consumers for sometime. He also failed to note the referendum do NOT allow for 'remain' in place.

They also hand waved the issues the gay rights laws in Russia and failed to cover the other issues. Like the Russian Petro company is largely seized assets from a political rival. It seems it's more 'oh Putin isn't as bad as western media portrays him'. A lot of those oligarchs they mentioned got pardoned by Putin if I recall, when he pushed them out.

I also find it interesting that they didn't cover the fact that they are making HUGE buckets of money propping up Syria. Syria is like their 3rd largest arms client.

I do give them points for hitting on the journalists, though the Arrafat death case is iffy at best.
« Last Edit: March 17, 2014, 10:56:58 AM by Callie Del Noire »

Offline Zakharra

Re: Russia Invades Crimea?
« Reply #165 on: March 17, 2014, 11:47:30 AM »
I think it's less about Putin trying to rebuild the USSR and more about the US and EU trying to encircle Russia by expanding NATO. Let's not forget that when the cold war was over there was an agreement that NATO would not expand.

Look at NATO now? Poland is in it, the Baltic states are in it. What's happening in Ukraine right now is just another plot to put Ukraine under the influence the influence of the west. It does not benefit Ukraine all that much.

To talk of Russia being expansionist but then ignore NATO expanding and the involvement of the US in various countries in the world it really has not reason to get involved with is just hypocritical.

 No. Russia is expansionist. They are forcefully grabbing bits of land that they want and if they succeed in the Crimea, they -will- do it in other places with Russian ethnic populations.  NATO is a voluntarily joined organization and nations in it can leave if they want to.

Online Callie Del Noire

Re: Russia Invades Crimea?
« Reply #166 on: March 17, 2014, 02:16:42 PM »
No. Russia is expansionist. They are forcefully grabbing bits of land that they want and if they succeed in the Crimea, they -will- do it in other places with Russian ethnic populations.  NATO is a voluntarily joined organization and nations in it can leave if they want to.

Very very very expansionist. Any neighboring nation should fear for their future autonomy. Putin has to keep his 'backers' happy. That means an expansionist attitude to open up new options/victims.

Online Qt

Re: Russia Invades Crimea?
« Reply #167 on: March 17, 2014, 04:06:52 PM »
No. Russia is expansionist. They are forcefully grabbing bits of land that they want and if they succeed in the Crimea, they -will- do it in other places with Russian ethnic populations.  NATO is a voluntarily joined organization and nations in it can leave if they want to.

Russia is no more expansionist than the US, unless you simply ignore anything bad that the US does. Let's not paint Russia as "the bad guys" when what they do is no different to what other's do.

As for the Crimea, it was a forgone conclusion that they will succeed when the US issued they won't recognize the result, because they knew what was going to happen and how they have no measures they could take to stop it.

Let's do bring in some facts of what actually happened during this "invasion" and "land grab." No shots were fired, no one died, no incidents happened during the referendum vote, and the turn out was over 83% and 97% voted to join Russia.

Offline Question Mark

Re: Russia Invades Crimea?
« Reply #168 on: March 17, 2014, 05:50:29 PM »
...the turn out was over 83% and 97% voted to join Russia.

Am I the only one who finds this more than a little suspicious?

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Re: Russia Invades Crimea?
« Reply #169 on: March 17, 2014, 05:59:48 PM »
Russia is no more expansionist than the US, unless you simply ignore anything bad that the US does. Let's not paint Russia as "the bad guys" when what they do is no different to what other's do.

As for the Crimea, it was a forgone conclusion that they will succeed when the US issued they won't recognize the result, because they knew what was going to happen and how they have no measures they could take to stop it.

Let's do bring in some facts of what actually happened during this "invasion" and "land grab." No shots were fired, no one died, no incidents happened during the referendum vote, and the turn out was over 83% and 97% voted to join Russia.


You've got a point about measuring with double yardsticks, but the lack of fighting in itself, when Russia went in, doesn't mean the Russian troops (in Putin's pretence world, they were not from Russia at all - remember?) and ships would have been welcomed. More likely just overpowering, plus communications from Crimea to the west (to the government in Kiev) had been cut off early on. There weren't many shots fired when Hitler invaded Denmark in April 1940 either, simply because it came as a surprise* and the capacity of the German forces to shoot everyone to bits was obvious, but very few people except some Nazi sympathizers were fooled about what was going on.


*Denmark, like Belgium before WW1, had been counting on treaties signed with other European countries declaring that they would remain neutral in any contiental war, and they had also underestimated the German military build-up. Foolish, but hardly a sign that they wanted to be occupied. Sweden had made much the same mistakes, but managed to remain unoccupied and stay out of the war, probably through luck and maneuvering space more than any other factors.
« Last Edit: March 17, 2014, 06:05:50 PM by gaggedLouise »

Offline SGTDan

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Re: Russia Invades Crimea?
« Reply #170 on: March 17, 2014, 06:09:37 PM »
Russia is no more expansionist than the US, unless you simply ignore anything bad that the US does. Let's not paint Russia as "the bad guys" when what they do is no different to what other's do.

As for the Crimea, it was a forgone conclusion that they will succeed when the US issued they won't recognize the result, because they knew what was going to happen and how they have no measures they could take to stop it.

Let's do bring in some facts of what actually happened during this "invasion" and "land grab." No shots were fired, no one died, no incidents happened during the referendum vote, and the turn out was over 83% and 97% voted to join Russia.
No deaths and no shots doesn't make the difference between invasion and a security action.

Plenty of invasions were accomplished without a shot being fired.

Offline Neysha

Re: Russia Invades Crimea?
« Reply #171 on: March 17, 2014, 06:19:01 PM »
Am I the only one who finds this more than a little suspicious?

83% is definitely more then the Russian majority in the Crimea. Considering I doubt many Ukrainians would find either option worth considering, and many Crimean Tatars were boycotting the referendum...

Offline SGTDan

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Re: Russia Invades Crimea?
« Reply #172 on: March 17, 2014, 06:20:49 PM »
83% is definitely more then the Russian majority in the Crimea. Considering I doubt many Ukrainians would find either option worth considering, and many Crimean Tatars were boycotting the referendum...
and nearly the entire NATO and UN ignoring any and all outcomes from the vote

Offline Question Mark

Re: Russia Invades Crimea?
« Reply #173 on: March 17, 2014, 06:24:40 PM »
83% is definitely more then the Russian majority in the Crimea. Considering I doubt many Ukrainians would find either option worth considering, and many Crimean Tatars were boycotting the referendum...

As is only logical, the US and the EU have condemned the referendum as a mockery of democracy.  From what I've gleaned from global news, we've slapped a couple of Russian bigwigs with sanctions and called it a day.

The questions I pose are thus: is this enough?  Will it have an effect?  And, the controversial one, should we be doing more?

Offline gaggedLouise

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Re: Russia Invades Crimea?
« Reply #174 on: March 17, 2014, 06:29:26 PM »
83% is definitely more then the Russian majority in the Crimea. Considering I doubt many Ukrainians would find either option worth considering, and many Crimean Tatars were boycotting the referendum...

Considering that the ballot boxes were made of see-through glass so anyone could easily see which way you had voted, and everyone knew that Russian troops were nearby or could be moving in within two weeks, what do you expect? This was a lot like one of those elections in Belarus or Uzbekistan.

As is only logical, the US and the EU have condemned the referendum as a mockery of democracy.  From what I've gleaned from global news, we've slapped a couple of Russian bigwigs with sanctions and called it a day.

The questions I pose are thus: is this enough?  Will it have an effect?

No, likely not much of an effect. Not in the short term anyway and that's what counts for now.