Topic: Wheel of Time

[Siereis]

I think that addresses all of the main points that need to be addressed, and am amenable to this idea.

On the character front, I was thinking of a Borderlander with roots in Kandor and Shienar. While I would like him to be a Warder, I am thinking that he would not have been White Tower trained. The events resulting in my character being Bonded would need to get worked out. If there is no one interested in playing that out with me, I'll hit the drawing board or something.

I'm sure either myself or another one of the females playing Aes Sedai would be up for that.  After all, I always thought the whole bonding idea sorta was one of the more interesting aspects of the universe.

Either that, or perhaps we shouldn't declare ahead of time if/to whom he will bond.  For example, in our small group perhaps he just happens to work better with one Aes Sedai than the other and we can RP it from there.  Just a thought.

[Aysande]

Regarding the Sandbox VS plot-driven group, I've found a way to make it work in one of my games and so far it has kept players interested (the game is almost a year old, created last April). There is a sandbox part to it, where people can RP whatever they want within the setting without GM involvement and there are "Episodes" which are GM-driven plots with stricter posting rules (like specific posting order, and must post within 3-4 day of last post just so the plot keeps moving. A player that is being skipped once for not posting by the 4th day is moved along by the GM if need be. If they have to be skipped twice in a row, they are written out by the GM. Not killed, just written out of the episode). The people taking part in the episode know the posting requirements and have the possibility to opt-in or opt-out and continue in the sandbox part.

It's a concept that could be used here, I think.

I plan to play an Aes Sedai but I have cold feet when it comes to bonding. I've worked my way into a bond so often to have my partner vanish once the bond is set that I tend to be a little hesitant. Given the nature of the bond, I would not play one that is already bonded to a PC.

I also have the ability to play a Warder, but just don't expect lengthy swordplay post from me.

Speaking of swordplay, I imagine that if there is a system for weaves there will be one for swordplay too?

Oh Moss, I really need that Wikipage created to give you a preview of the weave table. I would hate to work all those weaves into a table that you don't like

[Mossberg]

   I don't really want to be a GM in this. Not in the traditional sense anyways. I was thinking this could be sandbox, with some plot. While some of the people are going along with the plot, others are free to do as they wish pretty much. Or there could be secondary plots, or whatever. The requirement for posting when someone might be holding up a scene with others sounds fine to me. And there will be a posting order in all IC threads. I myself hate when I spend time coming up with a reply, just to go to post and see that someone commented out of turn which makes me have to change my post.

   As for the bonding, whoever anyone chooses as their bondmate is between them, just remember that it is not a decision made lightly.

   No, you misunderstand me about the weaves. The only "system" is for determining what you can or cannot use. The weaving itself and everything else is freeform.

   I'm working on it. This is a lot of stuff, you know. Well over 10,000 words in Word, including the coding. And I'm not done. There are still other nations I need to write up as well as specific locations. And I'm still not entirely sure on using the wiki. I'd rather be able to do it in a format that I can edit. I don't know html, just bbcode.

   So far I have an overall setting for the series itself, an explanation of the One Power, a list of a hundred or so weaves, talents and now I'm working on the nations. Then I still need to do the organizations, like Aes Sedai, Whitecloaks, etc. If anyone wants to help or anything they are more than welcome, just send me a message.



   If people want I can post some of what I have here so everyone can see it.

[Vill]

Regarding the Sandbox VS plot-driven group, I've found a way to make it work in one of my games and so far it has kept players interested (the game is almost a year old, created last April). There is a sandbox part to it, where people can RP whatever they want within the setting without GM involvement and there are "Episodes" which are GM-driven plots with stricter posting rules.

I think this option should be explored. I understand Mossberg doesn't want to be placed under the strain of being the official GM: I would not be adverse to taking turns in directing these "Episodes" so long as we can determine a definitive end point that doesn't take months to reach. It could be a lot of fun, and I would personally volunteer to lead one.

Just an idea.

[Mossberg]

That works for me.

[Cold Heritage]

Those are good points, Aysande. I had not thought of that. My apologies to everyone.

[Mossberg]

   Here is the thread in the World Building board. While I may still use the wiki at some point, I figured that this would help me get it set up faster and easier, then when I have the time and patience I will likely work on posting it to the wiki. Right no I am working on the One Power, with nations and organizations coming next, then likely shadowspawn and anything else that I may be missing.

   For those interested in being a Warder, or having Warder type training, I will be listing the Forms by difficulty. It is not essential to use the names every time the character makes an attack, but they will provide good references for those that don't know the movements or sword fighting that well.

   Also, below I will be posting the system for the One Power that will be being used so that those wanting channelers will be able to get used to it.

One Power Character Scores

   This is the system that will be used as a guide to roleplaying the One Power. If you have a channeling character, it is essential that you familiarize yourself with it. It may seem complicated at first, but it is really quite simple. The purpose of the system is to bring about a greater degree of order and certainty to roleplaying with the Power, so that everyone is clear on what they can do. It is also intended to reduce the amount of abuse, by clarifying what is not possible. A final aim is to actually improve roleplaying by giving firm guidelines on how channeling characters can be developed. It's important to note however, that the scores assigned to your character are not the be-all end-all of every situation. Despite a character being exceptionally strong in the Power and especially skilled in their use of it, they can still be beaten in the right situation.

         The Five Powers
   (Note that the words affinities and elements are interchangeable with references to the Five Powers)

   The Five Powers are natural affinities for each of the five elements, Air, Earth, Fire, Spirit and Water.  All five Powers added together give overall strength in the Power. Overall strength is rated out of 50, with each of the Five Powers rated out of 10. Average affinity for any given one of the Five Powers varies dependent on gender, with men having greater relative affinity for Earth and Fire, women for Air and Water, and the affinity for Spirit fairly equal between the two (relatively considering males are stronger than females to start with). Upon approval of your character biography, you will be randomly assigned your Strength score. As you should be aware, women are generally speaking weaker than men in the One Power. To account for this, the average (mean) One Power Strength score for women is set at 28. The average Strength score for men is set at 32. The random generation of statistics means that most Strength scores will be centered around the averages for each particular gender, with fewer and fewer people having scores that are further and further away from that average (thus, extremely weak and extremely strong channelers are less common than “average” channelers). Male scores range from 26-38, Females from 22-34. See Buy Chart below once you get your points to choose your element scores.


         Skill

   Skill is as important as Strength and thus is rated, like Strength, on a scale of 1-50. The average male level of skill is 28, female 32. As with Strength, your Skill score is assigned to you when your biography is approved. Female scores range from 26-38, Males from 22-34.


         Potency

   Potency is a measure of your character’s overall potential with the One Power, taking both Strength and Skill into account. Potency is measured out of 100, and consists of the sum of your Strength and Skill scores. Potency may never exceed 100 unless via the use of an angreal/sa’angreal, or in the special circumstances of linking.


         Linking

   Linking, or forming a circle is intended to increase the amount of strength available, when the raw potential of one channeler is not enough. Women can link up to thirteen, but any more requires a man. Men have no ability to link without a woman. In a link, one person has control of all the flows, and they are called the leader, or focus. Though not necessarily the most powerful person in the circle, they are almost always the most skilful. The role-playing effect of linking is to create effectively one channeler with greater strength. Skill of a circle is that of the leader. The effective Strength of the circle is not, however, as strong as the sum Strength of all the channelers involved in the circle. The equation for linked strength is as follows:

(Average Strength of the members of the circle) x (modifier)

The modifiers will be set on a base 1.5 with 0.1 added for each channeler that is added to the circle. A circle of 2 channelers would have a modifier of 1.5, a circle of 3 channelers would have a modifier of 1.6, and so on.


For example, if Nurien (Strength 29), Daedral (Strength 34) and Meritin (Strength 29) link, here is how to work out the overall strength of the circle:

Average Strength (92/3 = 31)

Multiply the result by the modifier for 3 channelers (31 x 1.6 = 50).

If Meritin is leading the circle, with a skill of 33, then the overall Potency of the circle would be 50 + 33 = 88.

Large circles are one of the few situations where potency can exceed the 100 limit normally placed upon it. Here is an example:

A circle of 13 Aes Sedai with a hypothetical average Strength of 28, using the appropriate modifier of 2.2 would have the following result:

Average Strength (28) x modifier (2.6) = 73

If Meritin is again leading this circle, with her Skill of 33, then the overall potency would be 73 + 33 = 106

If the result comes out as a decimal (for example, 109.84657) round to the nearest whole number where possible (previous example would become 110). If the decimal is an exact half (109.5) round the result down (to 109).


         Angreal and Sa'angreal

   Each angreal or sa’angreal is individual and unique. All angreal work in the same way – they boost overall strength, so that a channeler is not tired as quickly as if they were channeling unaided. They also have a buffer which prevents drawing too much of the Source.

Each angreal has a Multiplication Factor of the channeller’s own Strength. Multiples can include decimals, however the result produced should be rounded in the same way as results for linking. Some angreal/sa’angreal may also have a limiting factor to them, which can take any whole numerical value. A limiting factor represents the absolute maximum that can be drawn through an angreal (thus, the maximum addition to a character’s base Strength score), regardless of the Multiplication factor.

         Angreal: Multiple Factor of channeller’s own strength (1-3)

         Sa’angreal: Multiple Factor of channeller’s own strength (4-6)

Five Power Buy Charts

Male Channelers
Elemental Score	Earth Cost	Fire Cost	Spirit Cost	Air Cost	Water Cost
1	1	1	1	1	1
2	2	2	2	2	2
3	3	3	3	3	3
4	4	4	4	4	4
5	5	5	5	5	5
6	6	6	6	7	7
7	7	7	8	9	9
8	8	8	10	12	12
9	10	10	12	14	14
10	12	12	14	16	16

Female Channelers
Elemental Score	Air Cost	Water Cost	Spirit Cost	Fire Cost	Earth Cost
1	1	1	1	1	1
2	2	2	2	2	2
3	3	3	3	3	3
4	4	4	4	4	4
5	5	5	5	5	5
6	6	6	6	7	7
7	7	7	8	9	9
8	8	8	10	12	12
9	10	10	12	14	14
10	12	12	14	16	16

Average Elemental Scores
Element	Male	Female
Earth	8	4
Fire	8	4
Air	5	7
Water	5	7
Spirit	6	6
Total	32	28

[Vill]

Groovy. I'm stoked to see this is still moving forward.

[AribethAmkiir]

The gender bias on the Five Powers seems rather unfairly skewed.  I realize that all the information presented was taken from the core material, but the numbers don't seem accurate.  Add to that, that men don't have anywhere to study or train and the taint will likely drive them mad before they're able to teach themselves, and a male's skill rating should be half or less than what women are able to attain.

[Vill]

The gender bias on the Five Powers seems rather unfairly skewed.  I realize that all the information presented was taken from the core material, but the numbers don't seem accurate.  Add to that, that men don't have anywhere to study or train and the taint will likely drive them mad before they're able to teach themselves, and a male's skill rating should be half or less than what women are able to attain.

As it is now, the difference in the average skill and strength levels come very close to providing a nearly identical accumulative starting power between men and women. I could see drawing the conclusion that it might be appropriate for a trained Aes Sedai to be granted a higher starting skill stat. However, I don't recall a male's madness having a particular impact on any perceivable level of mastery or skill with regards to creating and maintaining weaves. I think the only thing that could really cause the loss of control were the random pockets of evil that escaped the Dark One's prison. If anything -- were the madness to progress to a crippling level -- it would result in a general loss of control over all functions.

There doesn't seem to be anything in the cannon lore that suggests that there should be a lower hard cap on a male's skill rating when compared to a woman's. Should they both cap out at 50, it is plausible that an Aes Sedai would start closer (assuming she has completed the three trials) to the cap than a trained male. I suppose there is also an Aes Sedai's age to take into consideration. However, an untrained female should have an identical starting stat of an untrained male, with a potentially lower strength stat.

Another thing to consider is that the events in the series seem to suggest that men move through the stages of gaining control over the source faster then women, as per the rapid expansion and growth of The Black Tower and its initiates. This becomes evident when compared to the amount of time a novice spends before ascending to accepted. Nynaeve, Egwene and Elyane being the exception. Although, this could also be attributed to the stauncher training format and indoctrination rituals that the White Tower observes... but, The Black Tower does seem to pump out killing machines at an impressive rate. However, for the sake of convince, this observation could be dismissed altogether.

It might make more sense to set the average starting skill range lower than where it sits now for both genders. This would allow for more play when considering the above factors. If you did want to set the hard cap lower than 50 for males -- say at 30, for the sake of drawing an arbitrary number -- then you could raise the hard cap on their strength stat to 70. This would reflect the cannon lore's insistence that they are, on average, stronger then women, and would maintain the cumulative power stat cap at 100. Again, these numbers were chosen just for the sake of providing an example.

As AribethAmkirr pointed out: one way to interpret the cannon lore to justify this lowered skill cap for men would be the fact that, even with the formation of The Black Tower, there is a more diverse and experienced pool of individuals available to pass down knowledge in regards to handling the female half of the source. But, the flip side to this is that eventually the real Dragon will come forward, and presumably pass down more intricate weaves that he himself had rediscovered. This might be a moot point though, if the dice system is not intended to play a prominent roll in the actual game play.

That's just my unbiased two cents: I don't plan on playing a channeler. 

[Zaer Darkwail]

In the books it's clearly stated that the men's growth happens in bursts where as women's it's steady and predictable.

Example of 10 years progress a woman gains 1 strength per year and achieves 10pts in end. Men gain 1pt in first year, nothing next two, then gains +5 pts in third year and then several years nothing and final burst at 9th year.

Also when two halves are described the way how it's controlled is also different; to woman side you must surrender to it and let to be flown with it. While with male side you must grab bull on the horns and drag and force it to obey you will (as anything else and loosing control means you may burn out).

So the dynamics considered, the struggle and conflict results in chaotic spurs of development in men which can be staggering. In sense Black Tower initiates progress is so well done because it's brutal (more brutal than White Tower) and male side suits well for destruction anyways.

[AribethAmkiir]

If I remember correctly, it has been a while since I read any of the book, the Black Tower had a lot of their initiates die.  From what I've gathered here, there isn't going to be a Black Tower just a False Dragon drawing male channelers to him.  So, that should mean little to no training, no?

I agree skill should likely be close to equal, but if skill isn't going to decide training then something else should.

The thing that strikes me as most unbalanced is the "Average Elemental Scores".  Women are half as strong as men in Fire and Earth, yet men are slightly less than 2/3rds as strong as women in Air and Water?  I know it is difficult to put these concepts in the form of numbers, but that just doesn't seem accurate.

[Vill]

If I remember correctly, it has been a while since I read any of the book, the Black Tower had a lot of their initiates die.  From what I've gathered here, there isn't going to be a Black Tower just a False Dragon drawing male channelers to him.  So, that should mean little to no training, no?

I agree skill should likely be close to equal, but if skill isn't going to decide training then something else should.

The thing that strikes me as most unbalanced is the "Average Elemental Scores".  Women are half as strong as men in Fire and Earth, yet men are slightly less than 2/3rds as strong as women in Air and Water?  I know it is difficult to put these concepts in the form of numbers, but that just doesn't seem accurate.

Right, I was under the impression that anyone playing a male channeler would be starting out as untrained. Likewise, anyone starting out as an Aes Sedai would have a surplus of training. We'll have to see how Mossberg wants this to be reflected as far as the skill stat goes. It seems more than likely an adjustment would need to be made. Good call on pointing out that The Black Tower, or its OC component, hasn't been fully established yet. Although, I think I remember Mossberg saying that a driving plot point for the beginning of the game could be that rumors of its foundation are just now starting to circulate, giving The White Tower a reason to send sisters to investigate. I don't know if this is set in stone, though.

Mossberg's system seems like a good one if we assume that both male and female characters are starting out with an equivalent rate of progression in their training. Unfortunately, this seems highly unlikely:

A) It would be nearly impossible to have a male channeler start off as anything other than untrained without holding an already well established role, as either a false dragon, or The Dragon Reborn himself. This would compromise the feel that Jordan achieves in Eye of the World: the country bumpkins that are just starting their adventure. I understand that this is not an exact mirror of the cannon series, but I think that there was talk about starting off with the intention of replicating that vibe.

B) Again, I know that we don't have to exactly mirror the cannon lore, but (I think) the only women allowed to leave The White Tower are Aes Sedai (baring those being sent back home, or to farms for penance). So, it seems likely that no one will be starting off as an Accepted -- definitely not a Novice -- if they intend to be out in the world to interact with everyone else.

Taking these two points into consideration would mean that it would be difficult to imagine male and female channelers starting at comparable skill levels. As for strength levels: this would be easier to get away with. Whether or not Mossberg agrees that the intentional disproportion to the starting strength stats should be balanced -- it won't make too much of difference in the long run. The hard cap is still 10 for each element for both genders. It almost creates a sort of "diminishing return" on what should be a strength bonus for men.

All of that aside, I don't think it will make too much of an impact with regards to actual game play. I'm guessing that there is going to be some sort of a "weave table" where each weave has a corresponding power, skill and elemental strength check. The biggest thing seems to be that male channelers will need a lower starting skill to better represent their "untrained" status. Leaving his proposed Aes Sedai starting skill where it's at would then create that perceivable gap in training received.

Edit: There is totes a weave table. I guess it's up to Mossberg to decide what sort of weaves an untrained male should be capable of and set the skill stat from there. While this could severely handicap a young male channeler, it leaves open the possibility to sort of relive those "oh shit" moments that Rand has: GM intervention could allow -- in a dire circumstance -- a temporarily boosted skill level so that a character could save their own, or their partner's, hide.

[Vill]

In the books it's clearly stated that the men's growth happens in bursts where as women's it's steady and predictable.

Example of 10 years progress a woman gains 1 strength per year and achieves 10pts in end. Men gain 1pt in first year, nothing next two, then gains +5 pts in third year and then several years nothing and final burst at 9th year.

I remember that it's definitely burst vs. consistent growth. However, I remember a passage from Rand's perspective about how aggressively the normal Asha'man's progress was developing. I think I remember something along the same lines from one of Nynaeve's chapters too? I'm gonna see if I can't hunt them down. But, even if it is supposed to be accelerated by comparison, it's not something that necessarily needs to be directly expressed in stat mechanics.

[Zaer Darkwail]

Aye, many asha'man died in the farm not because of accidents but by supervising asha'man applying poison into wine and so give 'gentle departure' to students who had passed certain threshold in madness.

Overall most asha'man in books were little nuts but the one example mentioned which got killed off was student who imagined fiery ants crawling on his skin. So perhaps by Black Tower standards asha'man madness is no issue if it does not affect their use as a weapon (meaning they do not get distracted in a fight).

Some asha'man thought training was hard or did not want the deal after they accepted it, so they left and then got hunted down and heads hanging from the tree. Rand was shocked each time he visited farm to see varied 'culture' developments in his created male channeler community.

[Mossberg]

Sorry everyone, I had a real busy weekend and couldn't get on here. I'd like to address some issues though.

Apparently I forgot to mention that you don't get the maximum points all together. Say that a male channeler has the average scores listed, but they are only a beginner. In that case they would only get one third of their total potential. So it could look something like, Earth 3, Fire 3, Air 1, Water 2, Spirit 2 and Skill 10. Or something like that. The same would go for all channelers basically, depending on their rank/experience level. Since there are typically three stages (Novice/Soldier, Accepted/Dedicated and Aes Sedai/Asha'man) the total score is one third at first stage, two thirds at second stage and the full score at third stage. Hopefully this resolves any issues that people may have.

[Mossberg]

If I remember correctly, it has been a while since I read any of the book, the Black Tower had a lot of their initiates die.  From what I've gathered here, there isn't going to be a Black Tower just a False Dragon drawing male channelers to him.  So, that should mean little to no training, no?

I agree skill should likely be close to equal, but if skill isn't going to decide training then something else should.

The thing that strikes me as most unbalanced is the "Average Elemental Scores".  Women are half as strong as men in Fire and Earth, yet men are slightly less than 2/3rds as strong as women in Air and Water?  I know it is difficult to put these concepts in the form of numbers, but that just doesn't seem accurate.

In the books most of the trainees at the Tower died from either accidents, madness related things or burning themselves out as a result of using the Power too much. Due to the close proximity of TG the Asha'man were being Forced as they call it to boost their strength as soon as possible so that they would be of use in the Last Battle, while also being able to compete with the White Tower. All Soldiers and Dedicated were required to do everything with the Power whenever possible. Chores, work, cleaning, etc. If they couldn't manage to channel enough that day due to tiredness or whatever, then they would eat cold food and whatnot.

I don't recall a male's madness having a particular impact on any perceivable level of mastery or skill with regards to creating and maintaining weaves. I think the only thing that could really cause the loss of control were the random pockets of evil that escaped the Dark One's prison. If anything -- were the madness to progress to a crippling level -- it would result in a general loss of control over all functions.

The only way I can see madness influencing any weaving ability or skill would be hallucinations or something of the sort. Say a male channeler "sees" a horde of Trollocs rushing down on him, he is likely to lose concentration lol.

A) It would be nearly impossible to have a male channeler start off as anything other than untrained without holding an already well established role, as either a false dragon, or The Dragon Reborn himself. This would compromise the feel that Jordan achieves in Eye of the World: the country bumpkins that are just starting their adventure. I understand that this is not an exact mirror of the cannon series, but I think that there was talk about starting off with the intention of replicating that vibe.

B) Again, I know that we don't have to exactly mirror the cannon lore, but (I think) the only women allowed to leave The White Tower are Aes Sedai (baring those being sent back home, or to farms for penance). So, it seems likely that no one will be starting off as an Accepted -- definitely not a Novice -- if they intend to be out in the world to interact with everyone else.

Edit: There is totes a weave table. I guess it's up to Mossberg to decide what sort of weaves an untrained male should be capable of and set the skill stat from there. While this could severely handicap a young male channeler, it leaves open the possibility to sort of relive those "oh shit" moments that Rand has: GM intervention could allow -- in a dire circumstance -- a temporarily boosted skill level so that a character could save their own, or their partner's, hide.

A - I'm not too sure on the False Dragon's bio yet, but I was thinking of having him be at a Dedicated's level of skill and power. He would have to have some skill to be able to call himself a Dragon. I mean, you can't accidentally light a candle one day with Saidin, then the next declare yourself the Dragon Reborn.

B - Yes, that is true. Though as this will be a Portal Stone World, some exceptions can be made with a good enough reason. An Accepted or two could possibly be travelling with a couple or few Aes Sedai on their way to do something.

And yes, I plan on giving the male channelers a list of weaves they will be capable of using and learning. Don't forget that there are still Dreadlords though, and they could have joined up to keep an eye on things and whatnot, then teach some weaves that nobody knows. Also, there is the whole "Old blood" thing that seems to kick in whenever a character is in dire trouble, perhaps weaving on pure instinct and not knowing what they are doing at first. So there is always the possibility that relatively unknown weaves get to be known.

[Mossberg]

So, I don't know if anyone is still interested in this or not, but in case anyone is I wanted to let you know that I'm pretty much taking a break for a little while. I've had a death in the family, been sick lately and haven't had any motivation to write. So I'll see you when I see you.

[Cold Heritage]

Take care.

[AribethAmkiir]

I'm sorry to hear that Mossberg.  :(

I'll keep an eye open for this and hopefully you'll return to it.

[Mossberg]

   Thanks guys. I'll be trying to show my face around here a little more.

   Just an update; I have posted nations and such to the World Building thread. Still have to edit it to put them in some semblance of order, but all of the major ones are there. If anyone wants more specific locations (i.e. Plains of Maredo, Spine of the World, etc.) speak up or I may decide to not post them if they have no significant role in the foreseeable future.

   As always, the thread can be found by clicking on the left image in my signature.

[AribethAmkiir]

Welcome back.

[Mossberg]

Just a heads up, I am looking for a Co-Gm to help me with this. Basically just someone to help me organize things and come up with ideas. Figured I would give the first chance to any of you who may want it before I post it in a topic. I would prefer it be someone that knows the series fairly well.

Any takers?

[Cold Heritage]

Although I'm not up for co-Gming - my knowledge of the series is too incomplete - I wanted to say welcome back, Mossberg. It's good to see you around again.

[Mossberg]

Thanks. It's good to be back, even if my fingers are starting to cramp up lol.