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Author Topic: A Good Country to Emigrate To?  (Read 5366 times)

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Offline IStateYourNameTopic starter

Re: A Good Country to Emigrate To?
« Reply #25 on: January 04, 2014, 12:32:30 PM »
There may be some truth to your predictions, but you are looking at it from a very linear perspective, which unilaterally vilifies the Right.  Someone of a different political persuasion could easily reach your same conclusions, while vilifying the Left.  I am of neither perspective myself, which is perhaps why I see this as being a bias in your outlook.

Perhaps.  But most of the impetus for a corporate state, extraordinary renditions, endless wars, private prisons, militarism, suppression of workers' rights, etc. comes from the Right.  At least as of today.  I'll concede the possibility that the Left could be co-opted into this down the road.

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Even if your conclusions are validated, how does emigrating from the US benefit you?  Strong European economies such as Germany and the UK, are losing their sovereignty to the EU, analogous to the manner in which authority is increasingly being localized in the American federal government.  The EU is taking the same ill-fated financial path you describe about the US.

Perhaps.  But at least the EU is taking steps to solve the financial problem.  And I don't see the EU trying to maintain networks of secret prisons and garrisons around the world. 

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You are unnecessarily turning the issue of emigration into a political one.

When the secret police break down your door in the middle of the night, what is it if not a political issue?

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With regard to your research data:

1)  How is prison population a representation of human rights?  India has less than 50 prisoners per 100,000 as compared to the US which has 700+ per 100,000.  This is supposed to lead us to what conclusion?

I see an inverse correlation.  Countries with low prison populations apparently have ways of dealing with dissenters and those who don't "fit in" by means other than the gulag, or manage to avoid the need by policies respecting the right of dissent and avoiding marginalization of large segments of the population.  In my estimation, a high prison population is a bellwether of a regime that has significant social and political problems and chooses to deal with them by the brute force of mass incarceration.  It's certainly not a perfect measure, but I do see correlation there.  It's a valid "one of several" indicator.

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2)  Economic freedom seems to show the US as being the best of the lot, based on your figure.

I would say it's more the US being "top-tier."  We're not number one anymore in much of anything except total GDP (most of which goes to the top 2% anyway), total military forces, and percentage of the population in prison.

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Please take my advice when I say that unless you are already secure in your employment, and have significant portfolio assets, that this is an incredibly bad idea.

Why?  Even if you're moderately optimistic about America's future, the U.S. is hardly the market with the highest growth potential in the world, or even close to that.  Even the sunnier projections call for U.S. GDP to average about 2 to 3.5% growth over the next decade.  Most to all of this will go to the super-elite, not you or I anyway.

Offline IStateYourNameTopic starter

Re: A Good Country to Emigrate To?
« Reply #26 on: January 04, 2014, 12:38:45 PM »
Okay, but what about looking into the actual process of emigrating?  Have you looked into various countries' immigration policies, what visas are available, what the naturalization processes are, etc.?

Just to be clear, I'm not going to try to talk you out of it.  Just making sure you have a reasonable grasp of what you're doing.

Yes.  To oversimplify a bit, it's all a question of money.  Bring cash (i.e., a viable business) to the table, and most countries will open the door for you.  Of course, walking through that door involves gobs of paperwork and bureaucracy.  But the door is open.  At least for the near future.  After the fecal matter hits the revolving oscillator here in the U.S., I figure the rest of the world might adopt a more closed approach to would-be American migrants.

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Re: A Good Country to Emigrate To?
« Reply #27 on: January 04, 2014, 12:46:38 PM »
Bring cash (i.e., a viable business) to the table, and most countries will open the door for you.  Of course, walking through that door involves gobs of paperwork and bureaucracy.

And do you have that?

Offline Valthazar

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Re: A Good Country to Emigrate To?
« Reply #28 on: January 04, 2014, 12:50:19 PM »
What is this "secret police" or "secret garrisons" you are referring to?  Are you referring to Guantanamo or the conspiracy theory involving FEMA camps?

Emigration is a significant life decision, and at least for me, I wouldn't make such a life-changing decision based on what some guy on YouTube says.

Why?  Even if you're moderately optimistic about America's future, the U.S. is hardly the market with the highest growth potential in the world, or even close to that.  Even the sunnier projections call for U.S. GDP to average about 2 to 3.5% growth over the next decade.  Most to all of this will go to the super-elite, not you or I anyway.

Oh, are you talking about simply buying foreign stocks?  That's a completely different matter, and probably a smart thing to include, along with American stocks.

I thought you were referring to physically wiring your cash to a foreign bank.  I can certainly understand why Americans concerned about the value of the dollar may choose to purchase Gold.  But transferring your assets from US dollars to alternate currency is a fruitless endeavor, since US dollars, even today, is the standard for international trade.  The only reason I can see this being advantageous is if you are extremely wealthy, and seeking some form of tax incentive through this practice. 

If you are referring to purchasing physical assets (like a house) in other countries, this again is a fruitless endeavor.  You are not factoring in local taxes in that area, let alone maintenance costs.

Offline IStateYourNameTopic starter

Re: A Good Country to Emigrate To?
« Reply #29 on: January 04, 2014, 01:01:53 PM »
Let's just say I'm taking an unconventional approach which leverages Information Age technology.  I'd rather not go into details.  I freely stipulate my approach may fail.  Then again, the same can be said for any worthwhile endeavor...if something is worth doing, there's always the chance it goes sideways.  No disrespect intended to anyone, but I'd rather confine the discussion to life experiences, healthcare, economics, etc. in countries other than the U.S. 

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Re: A Good Country to Emigrate To?
« Reply #30 on: January 04, 2014, 01:35:04 PM »
I think you are painting an overly rosy image of European countries, when in reality, there are people struggling there just like here in the US.  I lived in UK for a while, and while there are certainly many advantages - universal healthcare being one of them - the society wasn't a catch-all paradise on Earth by any stretch. 

In my opinion, responsible expansion of Medicare to more of the population, as opposed to the ACA, would quickly bump up our quality of life to be on par with Europe.
« Last Edit: January 04, 2014, 01:36:06 PM by ValthazarElite »

Offline IStateYourNameTopic starter

Re: A Good Country to Emigrate To?
« Reply #31 on: January 04, 2014, 02:13:35 PM »
In my opinion, responsible expansion of Medicare to more of the population, as opposed to the ACA, would quickly bump up our quality of life to be on par with Europe.

I'll agree with you on this one.  The ACA is a giant corporate subsidy, nothing more.  And we have way too much of that sort of thing as-is.

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Re: A Good Country to Emigrate To?
« Reply #32 on: January 04, 2014, 05:45:54 PM »
A few more considerations in making your decision:

1.  Unless you end up working for a globally-known European/Asian company overseas, or an American company with an overseas branch, you run the risk of having a diminished resume upon later return to the US.  There are certainly exceptions, but realize that unless you are planning to take on a well-known position overseas (such as an internationally-recognized teaching program, like what kylie mentioned), you'll basically be making your move permanent, and inadvertently losing the many opportunity perks of being an American - which there are many.

2.  Realize that Europe has a tremendous number of people struggling with poverty and unemployment, much the same way people are here.  Also consider that unless you have highly marketable skills, that many European employers feel no shame in favoring their own nationality over a foreigner - especially when it comes to hiring a graduate from a European university over an American one.  As fashionable as it is to diss the US nowadays, you would be incredibly hard-pressed to find another country as tolerant and accepting.

My honest opinion is that this concept of emigrating from the US is just a cool thing to say these days.  If you put in as much energy and creativity into doing all of the above, in the United States, you'll find yourself a quality of life for you and your family that exceeds many in Europe, and that's a fact.

I would argue otherwise. It's not merely "fashionable", it's based in realities that people like to ignore about this country. People who say it's just "fashionable" ignore real problems.  That "love America or stfu" attitude is one of the reasons I don't like this country. This cheerleading for the old red, white, and blue has screwed this country plenty of times before.  To be frank I don't like nationalism and wherever I live is a matter of convenience for now. Nevermind that there's still a shocking amount of systemic sexism in this country. The only rough spots in Europe I've ever heard of are in the eastern area. Greece, the Balkans in general, Russia, etc. I am so very sick of being associated with the nut bars in government by proximity. That and Americans tend to get up in arms about anything in the media whether its truly offensive or not. Not to mention that this country seems to love hypocrisy like nothing else. So many people here talk about freedom and liberty, but they're perfectly willing to try to deny it to so many. Granted things may be improving, but the very fact that it's just catching up to other countries sickens me. Not to mention that just about every bit of info I have found including what people have said in here seem to only serve to validate what I have said. I am not a nationalist, but at first I was thinking of just moving to Seattle or somewhere in Oregon for awhile, but I am just so sick of all the crap that goes on in this country. I could go on for a lengthy period of time about the systemic problems here.

Offline Valthazar

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Re: A Good Country to Emigrate To?
« Reply #33 on: January 04, 2014, 06:32:06 PM »
I would argue otherwise. It's not merely "fashionable", it's based in realities that people like to ignore about this country. People who say it's just "fashionable" ignore real problems.  That "love America or stfu" attitude is one of the reasons I don't like this country.

If you want to emigrate the US, then by all means go for it.  What is ridiculous to me are people who like the "concept" of emigration and yet have absolutely no game plan for accomplishing it.  And yet, they continue to recycle the same lines about how bad things are here.

I presented legitimate hurdles in finding employment abroad.  You have addressed none of those.  If I recall, Oniya also presented legitimate visa and immigration challenges.

Given that, I empathize with your criticism of the United States.  Let us be happy that we live in a country that gives us the freedom to openly criticize our government - and if we realize we have no viable means of emigrating, let us proactively work towards improving our home in our own vision.

Offline IStateYourNameTopic starter

Re: A Good Country to Emigrate To?
« Reply #34 on: January 04, 2014, 07:05:37 PM »
If you want to emigrate the US, then by all means go for it.  What is ridiculous to me are people who like the "concept" of emigration and yet have absolutely no game plan for accomplishing it.  And yet, they continue to recycle the same lines about how bad things are here.

You have a point.  But it comes down to how bad things become.  We're certainly far from it at the moment, but there comes a time when you simply have to leave.  If things in America do go seriously sideways--and I think this is distinct possibility; when republics turn into empires and go bankrupt, things rarely turn out well, there are only degrees of bad, worse and downright horrible--then you're going to just have to go for it.  If you were a Jew in the early Thirties in Germany, would you bemoan your lack of a "game plan for accomplishing" emigration and sit on your hands, or would you be on the next thing smoking out of town?

By all means, emigration from the land of one's birth ought to be carefully planned and executed where possible.  But I don't aim to wait until the strict capital controls and exit taxes are imposed.  They're already building more fences and barriers across both our northern and southern borders.  Where you used to be able to visit Mexico and Canada without passports, now you have to have one.  The handwriting is on the wall.  Ignore it at your peril.

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Re: A Good Country to Emigrate To?
« Reply #35 on: January 04, 2014, 07:26:41 PM »
They're already building more fences and barriers across both our northern and southern borders.  Where you used to be able to visit Mexico and Canada without passports, now you have to have one.

Could you please provide a reputable source suggesting that there is any indication that the United States government has a vested interest in "fencing in" our population?  If you truly believe that things are this bad in the US, then please emigrate already, instead of sitting behind a computer in the US, spewing conspiracy theory lines.

I have a college friend who emigrated and is a Dutch citizen now after getting a job with the Dutch government.  The last I have heard, he is very happy over there - but he is an incredibly hardworking guy, and it did not come easily.

From observing the immigration process my parents went through to come to the US, it is not a simple process.  It requires a tremendous amount of paperwork and mental headaches - as well as luck.  If you really have the energy and commitment for doing that, you're much better off being proactive and working your butt off here in the states, to carve yourself out a great job with benefits.


Offline Retribution

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Re: A Good Country to Emigrate To?
« Reply #36 on: January 04, 2014, 07:28:17 PM »
This is not a statement one way or the other pro or con, but what I find interesting about such discussions is that there are too sides that are polar opposites that have similar points of view for solution. I think it is safe to say those who say the US sucks I am getting out of here in this thread lean left. But on the right there are those who make the exact same arguments and come to the same conclusions about having to leave before it gets much worse. Or for example the show on TV Dooms Day Preppers is another example of survivalists or what have you thinking they must prepare for the end because things are getting so bad.

Like I said not a statement one way or the other I just find it interesting. Hell, I watched a TV show one time I cannot recall the name where a Neo Nazi was saying he had to emigrate because conditions in this country were going so far down hill from his PoV.

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Re: A Good Country to Emigrate To?
« Reply #37 on: January 04, 2014, 07:31:05 PM »
Yes.  To oversimplify a bit, it's all a question of money.  Bring cash (i.e., a viable business) to the table, and most countries will open the door for you.  Of course, walking through that door involves gobs of paperwork and bureaucracy.  But the door is open.  At least for the near future.  After the fecal matter hits the revolving oscillator here in the U.S., I figure the rest of the world might adopt a more closed approach to would-be American migrants.


Not getting overly specific here, I can see your reason for thinking about this is your view that the U.S. is on a relatively fast slide into becoming more grasping on its people, more controlling and less safe (and less prosperous?), and those are solidly legitimate concerns. Anyone can see that there's been a growing wave of murky intelligence gathering and shady information practices since 2001. And some more regulations on the freedom to move about of people and capital. This is not an exclusively U.S. phenomenon, of course... And your feeling there's also the feeling voiced by one or two others in this thread that the mental climate in the U.S. is growing more...frumpy and intrusive when it comes to non-standard religious/philosophical views and so on - this is easy to understand too.

Just picking up on the aspect of bringing a viable business into another country - sometimes it's not just a matter of replanting that business in a new country. Licences, local business and workplace practices that are different from American business culture, finding the right locations for offices, factories or shop outlets could take some time. It would be good to check out the experience of other people in the same general field of business who have been setting up shop in the countries one is considering (and that goes for whether you have a going business at present or you're planning to launch one in a few years time).
« Last Edit: January 04, 2014, 07:56:31 PM by gaggedLouise »

Offline IStateYourNameTopic starter

Re: A Good Country to Emigrate To?
« Reply #38 on: January 04, 2014, 07:38:20 PM »
Could you please provide a reputable source suggesting that there is any indication that the United States government has a vested interest in "fencing in" our population?  If you truly believe that things are this bad in the US, then please emigrate already, instead of sitting behind a computer in the US, spewing conspiracy theory lines.

Even though there's nothing in the Constitution granting the federal government the power to prevent people from leaving, they've claimed that right for certain classes of people:
http://answers.usa.gov/system/templates/selfservice/USAGov/#!portal/1012/article/4463/Passports-Denials-Revocations-and-Restrictions

Capital controls are already a reality:
http://dollarvigilante.com/blog/2013/10/17/capital-controls-officially-begin-for-us-businesses-with-jpm.html

I'm not going to go so far as to call 9/11 the American Reichstag fire, but it sure came in handy for the government to snoop on our financial activities now, didn't it?
http://www.offshorelaw.com/index.php/77-inner/100-the-usa-patriot-act-how-it-impacts-you
http://www.rhesq.com/Terrorism/Patriot_Act_Summary.pdf

You can disagree with my conclusions if you want, but please don't claim that my position is baseless.


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Re: A Good Country to Emigrate To?
« Reply #39 on: January 04, 2014, 07:39:42 PM »
And ironically as I was closing out the computer I encountered this http://investigations.nbcnews.com/_news/2014/01/04/22177302-are-the-xbox-and-unleaded-gas-helping-keep-you-safe-from-violent-crime?lite&ocid=msnhp&pos=1 *shrugs* mayhap perceptions are different from reality many times.

Offline Valthazar

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Re: A Good Country to Emigrate To?
« Reply #40 on: January 04, 2014, 08:11:01 PM »
Even though there's nothing in the Constitution granting the federal government the power to prevent people from leaving, they've claimed that right for certain classes of people:
http://answers.usa.gov/system/templates/selfservice/USAGov/#!portal/1012/article/4463/Passports-Denials-Revocations-and-Restrictions

Capital controls are already a reality:
http://dollarvigilante.com/blog/2013/10/17/capital-controls-officially-begin-for-us-businesses-with-jpm.html

I don't deny many of the facts.  In other threads, I have gone into detail regarding my criticism of the Patriot Act and the role of the Federal Reserve.

But your position is baseless because you are turning known facts into blown out conspiracies intended to create mass fear.

As far as the capital controls link, all this is stating is that a bank is modifying its foreign wire transfer policy.  There is no need to worry yourself to death over this.  If you need to transfer money from a Chase bank account to a foreign fund, simply transfer the money to another US bank account, which will approve the foreign wire transfer.  Collusion between private banks and government is a known phenomenon - and corruption is a serious issue.  However, it is veering into conspiracy theory territory when you start letting individual cases dictate your world view.

As far as the passport issue, which of those conditions is alarming to you?

I'm not going to go so far as to call 9/11 the American Reichstag fire, but it sure came in handy for the government to snoop on our financial activities now, didn't it?

Based on this statement, I'm assuming you believe 9/11 was also a conspiracy?  Whether or not that is the case, I don't make my life decisions based on these theories.  The last I checked, this was a forum where empirical facts are debated, so don't expect me to take your position seriously.



Offline IStateYourNameTopic starter

Re: A Good Country to Emigrate To?
« Reply #41 on: January 04, 2014, 08:20:42 PM »
And ironically as I was closing out the computer I encountered this http://investigations.nbcnews.com/_news/2014/01/04/22177302-are-the-xbox-and-unleaded-gas-helping-keep-you-safe-from-violent-crime?lite&ocid=msnhp&pos=1 *shrugs* mayhap perceptions are different from reality many times.

Let's put it this way: you've got to consider a range of possible outcomes.

The best-case scenario--the top 10% of possible timelines, if you will--are things like a militant but peaceful and pragmatic center asserting itself, and an astonishing series of technological breakthroughs in the next 20 years.  China manages its rise peacefully.  Economic growth resumes, we do a better job of distributing the benefits, we fix the healthcare crisis, and achieve 4 to 6% growth through to 2030 as nanotech and a new era of activism save the day.

It's possible.  Moreover, I really, really wish things would turn out that way.  But it's an outlier.

Then there's the bottom 10%.  Things get truly ugly.  Anything from a nuclear exchange to a plague epidemic to a coup de'etat.  We run out of oil and everything crashes like Mad Max.  This is possible too, and this is what makes the true doomers--of which I am not, by the way--all warm and fuzzy inside.

This doesn't make me warm and fuzzy inside.  It scares the hell out of me.  I just take solace in the fact is is unlikely.  We muddled through the 20th century without a nuclear war, though we came close.  Fate willing, we'll muddle through the 21st century, too.

So that leaves us with the more likely outcomes.  And quite frankly, nations that go down the imperial path don't tend to return.  The collapse of empire is never pretty.  Best-case outcome (aside from that unlikely 10%) is that it folds up peacefully and we suffer about a one-fourth loss of GDP.  More likely, we fall harder.  And between that 10th percentile and 35th percentile or so is the rise of fascism, the police state, purges, and all the other hallmarks of militarism and empire at the end of its rope.

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Re: A Good Country to Emigrate To?
« Reply #42 on: January 04, 2014, 08:22:01 PM »
The Brits don't seem to have come out too badly on the whole 'former imperial' front.

Offline IStateYourNameTopic starter

Re: A Good Country to Emigrate To?
« Reply #43 on: January 04, 2014, 08:22:31 PM »

Based on this statement, I'm assuming you believe 9/11 was also a conspiracy?  Whether or not that is the case, I don't make my life decisions based on these theories.  The last I checked, this was a forum where empirical facts are debated, so don't expect me to take your position seriously.

I'm saying it's possible 9/11 was an inside job.  I think the honest answer we plebs have to give is, "we don't know."  But that's not the crux of my argument and I don't want a thread derail.

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Re: A Good Country to Emigrate To?
« Reply #44 on: January 04, 2014, 08:26:54 PM »
This doesn't make me warm and fuzzy inside.  It scares the hell out of me.  I just take solace in the fact is is unlikely.  We muddled through the 20th century without a nuclear war, though we came close.  Fate willing, we'll muddle through the 21st century, too.

Trust me on this - you don't need to worry.

I'm thousands of times more likely to die in a car accident tomorrow, than from nuclear war.

Makes for a pretty cool roleplay idea though, so at least we are being productive in that sense.

Offline IStateYourNameTopic starter

Re: A Good Country to Emigrate To?
« Reply #45 on: January 04, 2014, 08:30:15 PM »
The Brits don't seem to have come out too badly on the whole 'former imperial' front.

Actually, they nearly collapsed, economically.  But the British are famous for their "stiff upper lip," and they pulled together, with Margaret Thatcher reforming the economy.  I'm not a fan of the Right, economically, but at the time it was what Britain needed.  But it wasn't pretty.

Offline Retribution

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Re: A Good Country to Emigrate To?
« Reply #46 on: January 04, 2014, 08:30:34 PM »
Okay checking out here. Have fun kids don't throw sand.

Offline IStateYourNameTopic starter

Re: A Good Country to Emigrate To?
« Reply #47 on: January 04, 2014, 08:35:16 PM »
Trust me on this - you don't need to worry.

I'm thousands of times more likely to die in a car accident tomorrow, than from nuclear war.

Makes for a pretty cool roleplay idea though, so at least we are being productive in that sense.

I wouldn't be quite so sanguine.  http://nuclearfiles.org/menu/key-issues/nuclear-weapons/issues/accidents/20-mishaps-maybe-caused-nuclear-war.htm

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/sep/20/usaf-atomic-bomb-north-carolina-1961

Accidents happen.  Not likely, but probability definitely >0.

Offline Josietta

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Re: A Good Country to Emigrate To?
« Reply #48 on: January 04, 2014, 09:12:40 PM »
Clarification (since I can't edit posts yet): I'm not really looking for a political debate here...more like compare-and-contrast of how various countries around the world handle these sorts of things, as told from folks who actually live under the systems (as opposed to American talking heads who spin things to fit their own agendas).

What happened to not looking for a debate?

They're already building more fences and barriers across both our northern and southern borders.  Where you used to be able to visit Mexico and Canada without passports, now you have to have one.  The handwriting is on the wall.  Ignore it at your peril.

I don't think that they are "fencing in" our population. Its more that they are keeping out illegal immigrants. Maybe you didn't notice but our country is quickly becoming overpopulated and thus causing economic strife. We have high numbers of unemployment which increases the amount of welfare our government has to pay out just to help the people survive. On top of that it causes the hunger rates to increase and that in turn causes more money to be paid out to help feed our people.  We don't have the food, jobs, or money to keep sustaining our own people let alone any immigrants that leak into the country searching for the freedom we have.

If America is so bad, why do you think so many people risk their lives to come here. To live here? True we have our downfalls. True our politics and healthcare are not the best but we are not the worst either.

I won't continue to debate this but I did want to lend my opinion on the matter.

I hope you find what you need to make yourself feel safer, more secure, and happy. 

Offline IStateYourNameTopic starter

Re: A Good Country to Emigrate To?
« Reply #49 on: January 04, 2014, 09:23:02 PM »
What happened to not looking for a debate?

LOL...well, you got me there.  I will say the responses I got are of quite a higher caliber than I'm used to seeing online.  So I got pulled into a discussion.  Mea culpa.

Quote
I don't think that they are "fencing in" our population. Its more that they are keeping out illegal immigrants. Maybe you didn't notice but our country is quickly becoming overpopulated and thus causing economic strife. We have high numbers of unemployment which increases the amount of welfare our government has to pay out just to help the people survive. On top of that it causes the hunger rates to increase and that in turn causes more money to be paid out to help feed our people.  We don't have the food, jobs, or money to keep sustaining our own people let alone any immigrants that leak into the country searching for the freedom we have.

If America is so bad, why do you think so many people risk their lives to come here. To live here? True we have our downfalls. True our politics and healthcare are not the best but we are not the worst either.

I won't continue to debate this but I did want to lend my opinion on the matter.

I hope you find what you need to make yourself feel safer, more secure, and happy.

Thanks.  :D