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Author Topic: Pussyriot band member 'vanishes'. A return to the 'good old days'?  (Read 1818 times)

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Offline Callie Del NoireTopic starter

I am curious.. I've looked around after seeing one alt news source post from a friend of mine put on his facebook page. I can't help but wonder if they 'vanished' her for being too much trouble? Or if something happened while she was on hunger strike and no one wants to admit she's hurt/dead/dying whatever.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-24848893

Offline Toral Stimins

Re: Pussyriot band member 'vanishes'. A return to the 'good old days'?
« Reply #1 on: November 08, 2013, 12:50:00 AM »
Poetin is looking more and more like Stalin was in his heighdays. People just 'disappearing'. I hadn't heard it, but it rings all sorts of alarmbells for me.

Offline gaggedLouise

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Re: Pussyriot band member 'vanishes'. A return to the 'good old days'?
« Reply #2 on: November 08, 2013, 01:43:35 AM »
Moving a captive prisoner to another jail, or to a special closed department of some kind, when he/she is protesting against their conditions at the present jail, that's an old Soviet method. The intention being to break off communication lines between said prisoner and other inmates, and ultimately to the outside world.

In itself it wouldn't have to indicate that she had been long-term harmed or fallen unconscious or the like, they might just want to keep her out of sight, but yes it could sort of equal dumping her in a dark dungeon. And in that kind of remote place, of course there would be nothing to stop continued abuse.  :-(


Anyone wanting to have a look at how hunger strikes and prisoner resistance were handled in the early decades of the Soviet Union, and how the prison system and jail regime vs political convicts changed from the last days of old Russia into the Soviet era, sometimes within the same prison buildings - take a look at the final chapter of Vol.1 of Solzhenitsyn's The Gulag Archipelago. It's called simply "Prison", but inside is an engaging analysis of how the attitudes of prisoners, guards and local prison managers changed over a couple of decades, and of the tough choices over strategy and morals that prisoners had to make if they wanted to fight back from inside the cells.
« Last Edit: November 08, 2013, 02:00:19 AM by gaggedLouise »

Offline Dashenka

Re: Pussyriot band member 'vanishes'. A return to the 'good old days'?
« Reply #3 on: November 08, 2013, 07:37:08 AM »
She didn't vanish. She's just transported to a different prison. Really those western media attention lines are getting annoying. Just because the BBC or her husband doesn't know where she is, doesn't mean she vanished.  >:(

The reason why she got moved I think is because of all the attention she was getting in prison. There's more pressing matters in Russia at the moment and the last thing the Putin regime wants is for Nadezhda to get more attention. Oldest trick in the book. You go to prison and when that doesn't work, you'll go to another prison.

Also the prison authorities saying they don't have her there, doesn't mean she isn't there. They're just not telling anybody even if she was.

So to answer your question Callie. Yes. They moved her for being too much trouble :)

Offline Oniya

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Re: Pussyriot band member 'vanishes'. A return to the 'good old days'?
« Reply #4 on: November 08, 2013, 07:51:21 AM »
Just because nobody knows where she is, other than the people that moved her, doesn't mean she vanished?  Collins English Dictionary would beg to differ:

vanish [ˈvŠnɪʃ]
vb (intr)
1. to disappear, esp suddenly or mysteriously

Offline Toral Stimins

Re: Pussyriot band member 'vanishes'. A return to the 'good old days'?
« Reply #5 on: November 08, 2013, 07:54:38 AM »
She didn't vanish. She's just transported to a different prison. Really those western media attention lines are getting annoying. Just because the BBC or her husband doesn't know where she is, doesn't mean she vanished.  >:(

The reason why she got moved I think is because of all the attention she was getting in prison. There's more pressing matters in Russia at the moment and the last thing the Putin regime wants is for Nadezhda to get more attention. Oldest trick in the book. You go to prison and when that doesn't work, you'll go to another prison.

Also the prison authorities saying they don't have her there, doesn't mean she isn't there. They're just not telling anybody even if she was.

So to answer your question Callie. Yes. They moved her for being too much trouble :)

More pressing matters? Like how to deal with a bunch of possible homosexual sports people in the upcoming Winter Olympics? Or Russian diplomats that go off the rails and beat their kids in the street in a not named European city and then demanding for the police (who arrested the diplomat) to be arrested?

You cannot deny that Putin is, no matter how much he will deny it, starting to look like a copy cat to Iosif Vissarionovich, in all the bad ways of the word.

Or how to protect Edward Snowdon from the West? God forbid that someone from the west would use polonium on him.

Offline Dashenka

Re: Pussyriot band member 'vanishes'. A return to the 'good old days'?
« Reply #6 on: November 08, 2013, 08:01:07 AM »
Just because nobody knows where she is, other than the people that moved her, doesn't mean she vanished?  Collins English Dictionary would beg to differ:

vanish [ˈvŠnɪʃ]
vb (intr)
1. to disappear, esp suddenly or mysteriously

But somebody knows where she is, thus saying nobody knows where she is, is a lie. The people writing the article and her friends and familie don't know where she is but does that still define as vanished?


More pressing matters? Like how to deal with a bunch of possible homosexual sports people in the upcoming Winter Olympics? Or Russian diplomats that go off the rails and beat their kids in the street in a not named European city and then demanding for the police (who arrested the diplomat) to be arrested?

I've lived in the The Netherlands so I know the current relations between Den Haag and Moscow. Those are more pressing matters. The ever present thread of terrorism, how to keep all the provinces and republics together, oil, gas, natural resources, poverty, corruption. All these things are more pressing matters.

Snowden deserves protection and Western Europe cannot provide that cause they all got Kerry so far up their asses that they can't even sit properly.

I didn't say I agree with Putin on this matter but I doubt it was Putin who told the prison to move Nadezhda. I'm pretty sure he's got better things to do than to sign and order prisoners to be moved.

Offline Oniya

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Re: Pussyriot band member 'vanishes'. A return to the 'good old days'?
« Reply #7 on: November 08, 2013, 08:04:40 AM »
But somebody knows where she is, thus saying nobody knows where she is, is a lie. The people writing the article and her friends and familie don't know where she is but does that still define as vanished?

If a magician locks her assistant in a cupboard, waves her wand and does her patter, and then opens the cupboard to show it is now empty, the magician knows where the assistant is.  The assistant knows where the assistant is.  It is still called a 'vanishing act'.

Offline Dashenka

Re: Pussyriot band member 'vanishes'. A return to the 'good old days'?
« Reply #8 on: November 08, 2013, 08:07:08 AM »
If a magician locks her assistant in a cupboard, waves her wand and does her patter, and then opens the cupboard to show it is now empty, the magician knows where the assistant is.  The assistant knows where the assistant is.  It is still called a 'vanishing act'.

No. It's called deceit. Comparing prisoner transport  like this with a magic act is a bit like comparing a plane crash with a kid falling off his bicycle.

I think a lot of people know where she is but they just won't tell anybody because that would immediately nullify the effect of moving her in the first place.

Offline Toral Stimins

Re: Pussyriot band member 'vanishes'. A return to the 'good old days'?
« Reply #9 on: November 08, 2013, 08:12:37 AM »
But somebody knows where she is, thus saying nobody knows where she is, is a lie. The people writing the article and her friends and familie don't know where she is but does that still define as vanished?


I've lived in the The Netherlands so I know the current relations between Den Haag and Moscow. Those are more pressing matters. The ever present thread of terrorism, how to keep all the provinces and republics together, oil, gas, natural resources, poverty, corruption. All these things are more pressing matters.

Snowden deserves protection and Western Europe cannot provide that cause they all got Kerry so far up their asses that they can't even sit properly.

I didn't say I agree with Putin on this matter but I doubt it was Putin who told the prison to move Nadezhda. I'm pretty sure he's got better things to do than to sign and order prisoners to be moved.

The current relations between The Hague and Moscow are chilly to say the very least. In a year classed by both as their 'friendship year'. But to the Dutch it's more and more like the friendship has only to come from the Netherlands. The fact that Russia hijacked a Greenpeace ship in international waters, if it were Somalians the world would cry shame, but since nobody ever questions Putin, nothing is heard. Most of the activists on the Greenpeace ship are still held captive. Somewhere.

To my opinion, of course does Putin know where she is. And even more, I wouldn't be surprised in the very least if he's not the one who's signed the transfer. You can say a lot about the guy, but he's a manipulator first class, he's no doubt studied some people in power before.

Holding the provinces together more pressing? Would you have classed Ukraine as a province? Or Estonia? It's just as you want to see it. The days of Glasnost are well and truly over, it's back to the old days.

Offline Callie Del NoireTopic starter

Re: Pussyriot band member 'vanishes'. A return to the 'good old days'?
« Reply #10 on: November 08, 2013, 08:19:45 AM »
She didn't vanish. She's just transported to a different prison. Really those western media attention lines are getting annoying. Just because the BBC or her husband doesn't know where she is, doesn't mean she vanished.  >:(

The reason why she got moved I think is because of all the attention she was getting in prison. There's more pressing matters in Russia at the moment and the last thing the Putin regime wants is for Nadezhda to get more attention. Oldest trick in the book. You go to prison and when that doesn't work, you'll go to another prison.

Also the prison authorities saying they don't have her there, doesn't mean she isn't there. They're just not telling anybody even if she was.

So to answer your question Callie. Yes. They moved her for being too much trouble :)

So, you're saying that when a US prison fails to provide a location of someone it's a bad thing BUT when a Russian prison system does it , it's just business as usual? No offense but the Russian detention system has been infamous for decades for all manners of human right violations. These women were found guilty of a relatively minor offense and shipped off to a maximum security prison. Now, the government WONT tell her husband AND her lawyers were she is?  And we are NOT to assume the worse?

Love those rose colored glasses you're wearing there.


Offline Dashenka

Re: Pussyriot band member 'vanishes'. A return to the 'good old days'?
« Reply #11 on: November 08, 2013, 08:24:24 AM »
The current relations between The Hague and Moscow are chilly to say the very least. In a year classed by both as their 'friendship year'. But to the Dutch it's more and more like the friendship has only to come from the Netherlands. The fact that Russia hijacked a Greenpeace ship in international waters, if it were Somalians the world would cry shame, but since nobody ever questions Putin, nothing is heard. Most of the activists on the Greenpeace ship are still held captive. Somewhere.

To my opinion, of course does Putin know where she is. And even more, I wouldn't be surprised in the very least if he's not the one who's signed the transfer. You can say a lot about the guy, but he's a manipulator first class, he's no doubt studied some people in power before.

Holding the provinces together more pressing? Would you have classed Ukraine as a province? Or Estonia? It's just as you want to see it. The days of Glasnost are well and truly over, it's back to the old days.

1. I agree on the Greenpeace ship. Russia had no right to enter, arrest and then drag the ship to Murmansk. On the other hand, Dutch companies still do a lot of (new) trading with Russian companies.

2. He does where she is but I don't believe he ordered it. I also agree that he is a manipulator.

3. No Ukraine and Estonia are not provinces. I mean Chechnya, Dagestan, Igushetia, Tatarstan, etc.

As I've said in previous topics regarding Russian politics, Russia cannot be governed like western europe or the US. It would be all out war in a week or two. So in order to keep the peace he and his government do what is necessary to keep the country together. Trust me when I say that it's in the best interest of the whole world if he succeeds.


So, you're saying that when a US prison fails to provide a location of someone it's a bad thing BUT when a Russian prison system does it , it's just business as usual?

Love those rose colored glasses you're wearing there.


No? I never said that? I didn't even mention the US system. If I would I'd have gone straight for Guantanamo Bay. But I didn't. I don't know how the US system works. The fact that they relocated her is of course a way to keep her quiet. If it's business as usual, well you all seem to know the answer to that. I don't agree with the way she treated either. I just answered your question.

Offline gaggedLouise

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Re: Pussyriot band member 'vanishes'. A return to the 'good old days'?
« Reply #12 on: November 08, 2013, 08:45:24 AM »
If a magician locks her assistant in a cupboard, waves her wand and does her patter, and then opens the cupboard to show it is now empty, the magician knows where the assistant is.  The assistant knows where the assistant is.  It is still called a 'vanishing act'.

+3. Of course.

You've got a funny way of un-defining "vanish", Dashenka. In 1970s Latin America, countries like Argentina and Chile, thousands of people were grabbed from their homes by cops or by secret military units and taken to secret locations for torture and interrorgation. Many of them were never heard of again, some were dumped into the sea from airplanes and helicopters or killed and buried in back yards or forests. They're known as "the Disappeared".

Now, for every such group who were taken care of, questioned and, often, ultimately killed, there will have to be some people in the Argentine Navy or secret police, etc, who knew exactly what happened to those particular persons. Only, precisely those persons who gave any orders or helped out were sworn to silence.

Actually, those KNVD and GULAG boys used similar tactics back in the day, too.
« Last Edit: November 08, 2013, 08:47:25 AM by gaggedLouise »

Offline Dashenka

Re: Pussyriot band member 'vanishes'. A return to the 'good old days'?
« Reply #13 on: November 08, 2013, 08:47:29 AM »
+3. Of course.

You've got a funny way of un-defining "vanish", Dashenka. In 1970s Latin America, countries like Argentina and Chile, thousands of people were grabbed from their homes by cops or by secret military units and taken to secret locations for torture and interrorgation. Many of them were never heard of again, some were dumped into the sea from airplanes and helicopters or killed and buried in back yards or forests. They're known as "the Disappeared".

Now, for every such group who were taken care of, questioned and, often, ultimately killed, there will have to be some people in the Argentine Navy or secret police, etc, who knew what happened woth those particular persons. Only, those persons were sworn to silence.

Actually, those KNVD and GULAG boys used similar tactics back in the day, too.

Yes but what you say is that these people all died and never were seen again. Nadezhda has just been transferred to a different location. Nadezha is not dead. (no pun intended)
« Last Edit: November 08, 2013, 08:49:10 AM by Dashenka »

Offline Toral Stimins

Re: Pussyriot band member 'vanishes'. A return to the 'good old days'?
« Reply #14 on: November 08, 2013, 08:51:30 AM »
1. I agree on the Greenpeace ship. Russia had no right to enter, arrest and then drag the ship to Murmansk. On the other hand, Dutch companies still do a lot of (new) trading with Russian companies.

2. He does where she is but I don't believe he ordered it. I also agree that he is a manipulator.

3. No Ukraine and Estonia are not provinces. I mean Chechnya, Dagestan, Igushetia, Tatarstan, etc.

As I've said in previous topics regarding Russian politics, Russia cannot be governed like western europe or the US. It would be all out war in a week or two. So in order to keep the peace he and his government do what is necessary to keep the country together. Trust me when I say that it's in the best interest of the whole world if he succeeds.


No? I never said that? I didn't even mention the US system. If I would I'd have gone straight for Guantanamo Bay. But I didn't. I don't know how the US system works. The fact that they relocated her is of course a way to keep her quiet. If it's business as usual, well you all seem to know the answer to that. I don't agree with the way she treated either. I just answered your question.

I know I am derailing this from the original post, apologies for that.

Yet, I just have to, according to wiki (I know, not the most reliable source in the world) there are 83 federal subject in the Russian Federation. 46 of those are classed as oblasts, or provinces. 21 are classed as republics, which are nominally autonomous, and all four that you mention (etc) are falling into that category. Which in some ways means that whomever is or was in power, acknowledges that those parts of the Federation have a right for autonomy. Who, somewhere along the time line of history, were independent from Moscow.

Josep Tito held Yugoslavia together (even though he was no native), Hitler managed to get a greater Germany and he was Austrian. Iosip was from Georgia and held the Soviet Union together, but to say it was best for their countries is to try to say surpression is good.

It surprises me a great deal that Scotland and Wales (and Northern Ireland for that matter) are not independent countries. That Pays Basque and Catalunya are still part of Spain, that the Southern provinces of the Netherlands and the Flemish part of Belgium haven't formed a country and I can name a fair few more of those regions where the borders just were cut the wrong way around. But isn't it time to let more people have their own country rather than civil wars all the time? I'm old enough to remember that attack in Chechnya on that school, never again I would say.

Offline Callie Del NoireTopic starter

Re: Pussyriot band member 'vanishes'. A return to the 'good old days'?
« Reply #15 on: November 08, 2013, 08:55:11 AM »
+3. Of course.

You've got a funny way of un-defining "vanish", Dashenka. In 1970s Latin America, countries like Argentina and Chile, thousands of people were grabbed from their homes by cops or by secret military units and taken to secret locations for torture and interrorgation. Many of them were never heard of again, some were dumped into the sea from airplanes and helicopters or killed and buried in back yards or forests. They're known as "the Disappeared".

Now, for every such group who were taken care of, questioned and, often, ultimately killed, there will have to be some people in the Argentine Navy or secret police, etc, who knew what happened woth those particular persons. Only, those persons were sworn to silence.

Actually, those KNVD and GULAG boys used similar tactics back in the day, too.

'The Disappeared' is a fairly widespread occurrence in the 'bad old days' in a lot of areas. Just last week, Gerry Adams (Former IRA commander/Sinn Fein leader) was accused via dead bed confession of one of his old soldiers of disappearing a mother of 10.  RTE TV and BBC are doing a special on the Disapeared of Ireland.

Dashenka, when you get NOTHING from the system and you are family and/or a prisoner's lawyer, that is a BAD thing. That was one of the major concerns over 2012s MDAA, the fact that the USG over meant could take a citizen into custody without charge, try them (with right to lawyer OR facing ones accuser) and never even get to hear the charges against you.

When a system REFUSES to account for those in their custody, that is BAD.

Offline Callie Del NoireTopic starter

Re: Pussyriot band member 'vanishes'. A return to the 'good old days'?
« Reply #16 on: November 08, 2013, 08:58:02 AM »
Yes but what you say is that these people all died and never were seen again. Nadezhda has just been transferred to a different location. Nadezha is not dead. (no pun intended)

How do you know that? No statement to the husband Or her lawyer. No statement on her health, she was on hunger stroke. No accounting for where she is.

No offense hut we do NOT know she is alive, fit or healthy.  The lack of a body doesn't mean she's alive. Simply that she isn't at her old prison.

Offline gaggedLouise

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Re: Pussyriot band member 'vanishes'. A return to the 'good old days'?
« Reply #17 on: November 08, 2013, 09:00:41 AM »
Yes but what you say is that these people all died and never were seen again. Nadezhda has just been transferred to a different location. Nadezha is not dead. (no pun intended)

Having somebody vanishing into "night and fog" (as the Nazis put it) is a first step towards the prison masters getting an open season to treat the prisoner in whatever way they like. Including killing, raping or beating up that person.

It's the responsibility of any prison aithorities to keep track of its inmates. And to offer some reliable in formatikon to the public on where any given prisoner is. If Russia doesn't do that it will take about five minutes before these henchmen find they have aroused suspicions among the public that the punishment is going to become harsher than it was set out as in the sentence.
« Last Edit: November 08, 2013, 09:02:24 AM by gaggedLouise »

Offline Toral Stimins

Re: Pussyriot band member 'vanishes'. A return to the 'good old days'?
« Reply #18 on: November 08, 2013, 09:05:17 AM »
Having somebody vanishing into "night and fog" (as the Nazis put it) is a first step towards the prison masters getting an open season to treat the prisoner in whatever way they like. Includingh killing, raping or beating up that person.

It's the responsibility of any prison aithorities to keep track of its inmates. And to offer some reliable in formatikon to the public on where any given prisoner is. If Russia doesn't do that it will take about five minutes before these henchmen find they have aroused suspicions among the public that the punishment is going to become harsher than it was set out as in the sentence.

For a moment I thought you were talking about what the Americans do in Guantanamo Bay or what they did in Iraq. No matter how we despise the show trial that Nadezhda had, at least she had one, something that cannot be said for a lot of prisoners the US is holding.

It is appalling that she has no right to see anyone, or that her husband and lawyers have no right to see her or hear from her, but it is not much different from how the US treats their prisoners of war. And yes, it wasn't the start of the discussion, but you just opened that door very wide for me.

Offline Dashenka

Re: Pussyriot band member 'vanishes'. A return to the 'good old days'?
« Reply #19 on: November 08, 2013, 09:28:38 AM »
It is appalling that she has no right to see anyone, or that her husband and lawyers have no right to see her or hear from her, but it is not much different from how the US treats their prisoners of war. And yes, it wasn't the start of the discussion, but you just opened that door very wide for me.

+1


Callie, I don't know what I have to do or say to make it clear that I do not agree with it but I do understand why it happens.

There is too much international attention on Pussyriot for Putin to sign a kill order (if he even would want that). So IF she is really dead, (which I don't believe) it wasn't Putin's doing but an accident, a complication on her hunger strike or a rogue general of the Russian army doing it.

What do you think would happen to Snowden or Assange if they were to set foot on US soil? Wouldn't the US do everything in their power to make them 'vanish' as well? I don't agree but I do understand.

Furthermore I personally find it shocking and bordering on some sort of racism that when minor things like this happen in Russia, without any evidence, the whole world screams murder but when Israel or the US or the UK commit much more serious and more crimes against the ENTIRE WORLD POPULATION, it's in the newspapers for a day and then the most disgusting and scary person in the world, Kerry spreads some more lies and everything is good again.

And people still wonder why the Russians have more and more of a distrust towards the west. At least Putin and Russia's biggest concern is INTERNAL politics whereas Europe and the US are more concerned with what's going on in Russia than the terrible mess they leave in their own countries. There's some food for thought.

Offline Toral Stimins

Re: Pussyriot band member 'vanishes'. A return to the 'good old days'?
« Reply #20 on: November 08, 2013, 09:32:36 AM »
+1


Callie, I don't know what I have to do or say to make it clear that I do not agree with it but I do understand why it happens.

There is too much international attention on Pussyriot for Putin to sign a kill order (if he even would want that). So IF she is really dead, (which I don't believe) it wasn't Putin's doing but an accident, a complication on her hunger strike or a rogue general of the Russian army doing it.

What do you think would happen to Snowden or Assange if they were to set foot on US soil? Wouldn't the US do everything in their power to make them 'vanish' as well? I don't agree but I do understand.

Furthermore I personally find it shocking and bordering on some sort of racism that when minor things like this happen in Russia, without any evidence, the whole world screams murder but when Israel or the US or the UK commit much more serious and more crimes against the ENTIRE WORLD POPULATION, it's in the newspapers for a day and then the most disgusting and scary person in the world, Kerry spreads some more lies and everything is good again.

And people still wonder why the Russians have more and more of a distrust towards the west. At least Putin and Russia's biggest concern is INTERNAL politics whereas Europe and the US are more concerned with what's going on in Russia than the terrible mess they leave in their own countries. There's some food for thought.

Not even food for thought. The God's honest truth. The US isn't interested in what happens back home, they don't even really care that the whole country is on the verge of shutting down because they haven't got money, as long as they can keep playing police people of the world, it seems to be fine. The US is literally bankrupt, but hey, it's capitalism, things like that are normal.

It doesn't make it right what Russia is doing, far from it, but as always it's a good diversion from your own problems. Point out someone elses and people might actually forget the problems at home.

Offline Callie Del NoireTopic starter

Re: Pussyriot band member 'vanishes'. A return to the 'good old days'?
« Reply #21 on: November 08, 2013, 09:58:31 AM »
+1


Callie, I don't know what I have to do or say to make it clear that I do not agree with it but I do understand why it happens.

There is too much international attention on Pussyriot for Putin to sign a kill order (if he even would want that). So IF she is really dead, (which I don't believe) it wasn't Putin's doing but an accident, a complication on her hunger strike or a rogue general of the Russian army doing it.

What do you think would happen to Snowden or Assange if they were to set foot on US soil? Wouldn't the US do everything in their power to make them 'vanish' as well? I don't agree but I do understand.

Furthermore I personally find it shocking and bordering on some sort of racism that when minor things like this happen in Russia, without any evidence, the whole world screams murder but when Israel or the US or the UK commit much more serious and more crimes against the ENTIRE WORLD POPULATION, it's in the newspapers for a day and then the most disgusting and scary person in the world, Kerry spreads some more lies and everything is good again.

And people still wonder why the Russians have more and more of a distrust towards the west. At least Putin and Russia's biggest concern is INTERNAL politics whereas Europe and the US are more concerned with what's going on in Russia than the terrible mess they leave in their own countries. There's some food for thought.

Let's take a look at this. 

1.  It has been established that the US DoJ has NO standing to persecute Assange.  Whereas his actions that have left him a 'prisoner' in a consulate where of his own doing. Had he NOT fled Sweden, odds are he'd be able to rant and froth without worry elsewhere. He fled potential prosecution in SWEDEN by asserting that the US would snatch him up. Let's be honest if they thought they had a case, the White House and DoJ could have done so while he was in the UK, before or after his arrest for flight from persecution. He didn't commit treason, so there was never a death penalty in any potential US case. And let's be honest too many folks were watching him for them to do half the shit he said we would.

2. If the 'vanishing of a singer' is 'internal politics', a phrase you like to toss out a lot, it could be argued that Snowden's release of sensitive information and violation of the national security agreement as well as NDAs here in the US could be a strictly internal US matter and by your argument none of anyone else's business.

3. I find it an interesting measure that whenever we point out any issues with civil liberties anywhere in the former soviet sphere Isreal is tossed out as an 'ignored violator' by you. Why not one of the dozen Arab/Islamic states, China, South American or Asian states? Israel isn't clean true, but I don't see a veritable PILE of dead reporters, or prosecuted opposition leadership/party members like I do in Russia, Syria, Egypt, Iran, and other locations you don't bring up. There have been what? Something like 40 to 200 journalist murders unsolved since Putin stepped up to power in the 90s depending on which source you trust? Over a dozen dissident/ political rivals in prisoner for dubious crimes,  and more than a handful of questionable deaths by people who fled Russia. At least one death by polonium and a handful of other poisonings.

You toss out a remarkably high standard for the west but don't seem to think anyone should hold other counties to it.
« Last Edit: November 08, 2013, 10:01:25 AM by Callie Del Noire »

Offline Dashenka

Re: Pussyriot band member 'vanishes'. A return to the 'good old days'?
« Reply #22 on: November 08, 2013, 10:10:37 AM »
Let's take a look at this. 

1.  It has been established that the US DoJ has NO standing to persecute Assange.  Whereas his actions that have left him a 'prisoner' in a consulate where of his own doing. Had he NOT fled Sweden, odds are he'd be able to rant and froth without worry elsewhere. He fled potential prosecution in SWEDEN by asserting that the US would snatch him up. Let's be honest if they thought they had a case, the White House and DoJ could have done so while he was in the UK, before or after his arrest for flight from persecution. He didn't commit treason, so there was never a death penalty in any potential US case. And let's be honest too many folks were watching him for them to do half the shit he said we would.

2. If the 'vanishing of a singer' is 'internal politics', a phrase you like to toss out a lot, it could be argued that Snowden's release of sensitive information and violation of the national security agreement as well as NDAs here in the US could be a strictly internal US matter and by your argument none of anyone else's business.

3. I find it an interesting measure that whenever we point out any issues with civil liberties anywhere in the former soviet sphere Isreal is tossed out as an 'ignored violator' by you. Why not one of the dozen Arab/Islamic states, China, South American or Asian states? Israel isn't clean true, but I don't see a veritable PILE of dead reporters, or prosecuted opposition leadership/party members like I do in Russia, Syria, Egypt, Iran, and other locations you don't bring up. There have been what? Something like 40 to 200 journalist murders unsolved since Putin stepped up to power in the 90s depending on which source you trust? Over a dozen dissident/ political rivals in prisoner for dubious crimes,  and more than a handful of questionable deaths by people who fled Russia. At least one death by polonium and a handful of other poisonings.

You toss out a remarkably high standard for the west but don't seem to think anyone should hold other counties to it.

And the thousands of suffering Palestinians on the west bank? Let's ignore them? It's what everybody seems to be doing for years and years.

Example on my view on this whole Russia vs the West thing.

When Russia refused to sign the UN treaty to invade and interfere in Syria, it made world news and most UN countries blamed Russia for being too passive and protecting it's ally.

When the US blocked/blocks EVERY SINGLE treaty saying Israel should stop commiting war crimes against the palestinians, NOBODY gives a fuck. (until one day the Arabian Liga and Russia have had enough of it and hopefully bomb the place off the map)

The US has been giving the finger to world politics, international treaty's and the UN for years and years and years and suddenly when Russia tells them to suck on it and fuck off, everybody gets wildly upset that Russia is the culprit.
I cannot believe that so many people fail to see that. When America (or it's allies) does it, it's fine and justified and maybe even the only right thing to do, but when Russia does EXACTLY the same thing, it's terrible.

Offline Toral Stimins

Re: Pussyriot band member 'vanishes'. A return to the 'good old days'?
« Reply #23 on: November 08, 2013, 10:14:32 AM »
Let's take a look at this. 

1.  It has been established that the US DoJ has NO standing to persecute Assange.  Whereas his actions that have left him a 'prisoner' in a consulate where of his own doing. Had he NOT fled Sweden, odds are he'd be able to rant and froth without worry elsewhere. He fled potential prosecution in SWEDEN by asserting that the US would snatch him up. Let's be honest if they thought they had a case, the White House and DoJ could have done so while he was in the UK, before or after his arrest for flight from persecution. He didn't commit treason, so there was never a death penalty in any potential US case. And let's be honest too many folks were watching him for them to do half the shit he said we would.

2. If the 'vanishing of a singer' is 'internal politics', a phrase you like to toss out a lot, it could be argued that Snowden's release of sensitive information and violation of the national security agreement as well as NDAs here in the US could be a strictly internal US matter and by your argument none of anyone else's business.

3. I find it an interesting measure that whenever we point out any issues with civil liberties anywhere in the former soviet sphere Isreal is tossed out as an 'ignored violator' by you. Why not one of the dozen Arab/Islamic states, China, South American or Asian states? Israel isn't clean true, but I don't see a veritable PILE of dead reporters, or prosecuted opposition leadership/party members like I do in Russia, Syria, Egypt, Iran, and other locations you don't bring up. There have been what? Something like 40 to 200 journalist murders unsolved since Putin stepped up to power in the 90s depending on which source you trust? Over a dozen dissident/ political rivals in prisoner for dubious crimes,  and more than a handful of questionable deaths by people who fled Russia. At least one death by polonium and a handful of other poisoning a.

Wow, just wow.

Yasser Arafat was also killed by polonium and it's beyond reasonable doubt that Israel did that. Israel who pulls the 'we were almost killed off by the German' card so many times that people actually forget they are the occupying country. It was called Palestina for so many reasons. The land of Yeshua (give or take the spelling) wasn't even close to where it is now. If reporters and not citizens are a measure of how good or bad a country is, then no, Israel doesn't make the deadline, but hundreds and hundreds of Palestinian citizens killed for no other reason than they are not Jewish should be called as race murder.

The information that Snowden brought out, like the fact that the US of A spied on European leaders is of course very sensitive information. Because, it's no good that we in Europe know that a country that's supposed to be our 'friend' is actually spying on us. Should I refer to the act that was signed by Bush in 2002? That the US of A can and will invade the Netherlands (after all, it's only a fellow country in NATO) if an American is ever brought to trial for crimes against humanity? (Rule number 1 of NATO says that if one country of NATO is attacked all countries of NATO are attacked.

Assange was only prosecuted in Sweden after he had been outed for his other work. In fact, the women who were forced into filing, had no plans of doing so. But yet, that is not mentioned anywhere anymore.

Public Enemy, the band, has not been so much prosecuted in the US, but they have sure been harassed by politics, why? Because they were black and rapped about what the black community thought.

When Russia, The Soviet Union, had long found that there should be no distinction between race colours, America still had a division between black and white waiting rooms, toilets and a lot more. I welcome the fact that it might look America has grown up with a black president, but even that is challenged and questioned to this day and age. 'Is he really American?' Who gives a toss? Nobody on your side of the Atlantic is really American, unless they are of Indian origin, all others are imported.

I am very much against what Russia has done now with Nadia, what they did with Raoul Wallenberg in the past, Aleksander Solzjenetsin and many many many others, it is no fair game for you to point anything out to Russia, America is just as much at fault. Period.

Offline Callie Del NoireTopic starter

Re: Pussyriot band member 'vanishes'. A return to the 'good old days'?
« Reply #24 on: November 08, 2013, 10:57:48 AM »
Wow, just wow.

Yasser Arafat was also killed by polonium and it's beyond reasonable doubt that Israel did that. Israel who pulls the 'we were almost killed off by the German' card so many times that people actually forget they are the occupying country. It was called Palestina for so many reasons. The land of Yeshua (give or take the spelling) wasn't even close to where it is now. If reporters and not citizens are a measure of how good or bad a country is, then no, Israel doesn't make the deadline, but hundreds and hundreds of Palestinian citizens killed for no other reason than they are not Jewish should be called as race murder.

The information that Snowden brought out, like the fact that the US of A spied on European leaders is of course very sensitive information. Because, it's no good that we in Europe know that a country that's supposed to be our 'friend' is actually spying on us. Should I refer to the act that was signed by Bush in 2002? That the US of A can and will invade the Netherlands (after all, it's only a fellow country in NATO) if an American is ever brought to trial for crimes against humanity? (Rule number 1 of NATO says that if one country of NATO is attacked all countries of NATO are attacked.

Assange was only prosecuted in Sweden after he had been outed for his other work. In fact, the women who were forced into filing, had no plans of doing so. But yet, that is not mentioned anywhere anymore.

Public Enemy, the band, has not been so much prosecuted in the US, but they have sure been harassed by politics, why? Because they were black and rapped about what the black community thought.

When Russia, The Soviet Union, had long found that there should be no distinction between race colours, America still had a division between black and white waiting rooms, toilets and a lot more. I welcome the fact that it might look America has grown up with a black president, but even that is challenged and questioned to this day and age. 'Is he really American?' Who gives a toss? Nobody on your side of the Atlantic is really American, unless they are of Indian origin, all others are imported.

I am very much against what Russia has done now with Nadia, what they did with Raoul Wallenberg in the past, Aleksander Solzjenetsin and many many many others, it is no fair game for you to point anything out to Russia, America is just as much at fault. Period.

So, it's okay to bring up segregation but I can't point out prior bad act on the behalf of the Russian government even over the last decade.? Nice double standard. .

Okay, the Arrafat 'poisoning'. One, chain of custody in that is very iffy. Two, they waited TEN years to do it?  Sorry, guickie google, nine years. The woman who REFUSED an autopsy then has him dug up now? I'm sorry but I'm dubious till the Swiss do their FULL assessment which was still ongoing.

Do I have heartburn over the Isreali/Palastenian crisis? Yes. Do I wish the moderate parties would steer their government into supporting their following their own treaties. Yes.

Do I wish everyone in the Middle East would make both sides sit down, stop using the Palestians as their chess pieces in a fight? YES. Hell YES?  I know that there are a lot of Persians, Arabs and others that would like nothing more than to fight Isreal to the last Palestians. NEITHER side in that conflict is clean.

I have repeatedly wished my own party would man up and ell the crazy conservative Isreali leadership to man up and obey the treaty conditions. I know about TEN moderate Jews here in the US, friends/teachers/former coworkers who pray daily that the reform movement ongoing in Isreal breaks the death grip the ultra orthodox and conservative factions have on the government.

As for Snowden's 'revelation' of US spying. Please , it has long been common assumption that we spy on our allies and vice versa. How about a source for that 'act' Bush signed to invade the Netherlands please.  The thing is..Snowden's revealed it. That's it. I know that the US has in the past asked British and French 'diplomats' to leave for spying. It is the way of the world. Do I like it? no. Can I change it? Not much beyond writing to my elected officials and comparing about over reach. Which I've done. I think the vast scope of the NSA has been out of control since 9/11. Said so repeatedly. I think the NSA needs to be broke up and that the DoD should be coordinating drone strikes with the CIA providing intelligence,more oversight and a shit ton more on the Rules of Engagement. My take on the last decade and change in US intelligence actions? We need to de-privatize US intelligence, stick to rules engagement that are clear and defined, and put a shit ton of cash into rebuilding overseas human intelligence.

As for no racism in Russia? Please check your sources.
http://www.worldpolicy.org/blog/2013/06/07/racism-russia-how-moscow-capitalizes-xenophobia

Google Yaya tourė while you're at it.

I'm just as hard on my country about issues like 'Rendition' and the atrocity they put in the 2012 NDAA where if you were linked to 'terrorist' elements, you could potentially lose your rights as a citizen. I have called, written and commented a LOT about it. It is WRONG to deny your own citizens their rights.

And that's MY issue with this. You start down that slope and you start thinking of the bullshit like its okay to 'outsource' interrogations to countries who have a 'flexible' outlook on 'enhanced' interrogation. 'Sequestering' problem prisoners means less accountability to what is done to them. Ask Nelson Mandela what he thought of that. 

Do I claim the US is Lilly white in the actions of the lasted decade+? Fuck no. I'm terrified by the continuing failure of my fellow citizens to let go of the FEAR and realize that our actions are enabling our enemies. I served my country. I love it. I want it to return to a more reasoned and rational course. I want them to do the fight the RIGHT way. Unfortunately I'm in the minority. So I speak up and refuse to be silent about its sins. I respect Snowden for speaking up, BUT I also think a whistleblower should face the music. This NEEDS to be done publicly and openly. Daniel Ellsberg faced the music when he released the Pentagon papers after repeated attempts to go thru several elected officials. NONE of who would put those papers in the official record.

The right way is never the easy way. It has a cost in time, money, and blood. But it is one that should be done.

That is why I brought that original article up. Russia is not as well ground in the protection of dissent. Accountability is something everyone should hold out as a way to say 'see we are playing by the rules.' If they refuse to account for the whereabouts of a minor offender like this, what about the more politically dangerous prisoners? 

I'm done for now and am stepping out for a day before I say something gets the thread locked

« Last Edit: November 08, 2013, 10:59:05 AM by Callie Del Noire »