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Author Topic: MMO's are a dying breed?  (Read 1000 times)

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Offline XenphirTopic starter

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MMO's are a dying breed?
« on: October 21, 2013, 10:15:19 PM »
What do you think? I've read up online and it seems a lot of MMO's are losing massive amounts of players. I believe it is due to money? What else? What do you think?

Since a few years ago, it felt like MMO's were the height of the Gaming Community. Everyone wanted to play them, everyone loved them, and it Seemed (To me as my opinion and what I heard.) to be far more popular than Console gaming or single player PC games.

However, now lately all I hear are about new awesome console games or single player PC games. (Examples: Skyrim, Left for Dead, Call of Duty, Portal, GTA, some other ones.) Forgive me if I sound stupid but I don't have an xbox360 or a ps3 so recent console games are foreign to me xD

And when you mention MMO's, people think, "Oh just a money grubbing Item Mall subscription blah blah" Which is true. Though I also think it is bad on both parts. For consumers, it seems they just want money, but they also do not seem as willing to pay for as much, which lowers the games profit.

In the end it becomes a spiral to the depths of the gaming graveyard. Company raises the prices, consumers don't buy as much, company isn't making enough money, they invent more ways to get money, consumers get more angry and leave, company raises prices or makes more things to buy, until its dead.

Now, everything has a lifespan, including games popularity, but it feels like it is dropping rapidly recently. The same thing is happening to one of my favorite games, it has lost support and events and updates or bug fixes, only making people leave or not want to spend money, and the company is too poor/not willing to keep the game going or updated.  It is only a 2d-ish anime-ish game but it used to be so popular, and all the servers had so many people.


So! To the point! What do you think? Any ideas? Also, any ideas I could send to the company to maybe get them to re-think things? I planned to e-mail them an idea, so maybe more than one will be helpful.

Offline Inkidu

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Re: MMO's are a dying breed?
« Reply #1 on: October 21, 2013, 10:21:59 PM »
Well the veneer had to rub off sometime. I do think a lot of them go--or at least feel like--pay to win MMOs. However, it could be that there's just a glut on the market right now a la Guitar Hero. Also, MMOs are often not as sophisticated as their offline brethren, but cost just as much money in servers and whatnot. I know MMO is a broad term, and I don't dislike all of them, but I hate, hate MMORPGs because they're such a step down from their offline counterparts and you're expected to pay for that.

I often call them the NASCAR of the gaming world. They're a stock, baseline experience that just keeps you going around in circles.

Offline XenphirTopic starter

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Re: MMO's are a dying breed?
« Reply #2 on: October 21, 2013, 10:44:35 PM »
Though, MMORPG's cannot (I think) be as good as their console/single counterparts. If they made graphics and effort into it like a single game, (Let us use Skyrim for an example.) It would probably take a lot of server power or really expensive technology. My computer handles Skyrim well, but if it were bigger and had a lot of Multiplayer things threaded into it, with a lot of other players pixels running about and not to mention connection to all of them, no one could afford a good enough computer to play it on.

Though some MMO's today are a lot better than RPG's of the older times. (The first FF?) Though they have become pay-to-win a lot, some of them are not. A lot of people think the ones with Item Malls are Pay-to-win, but its not. It just takes LONGER when you are one of the more poorer customers. Compared to just boosting through everything, yeah its hard to 'win'. You cannot play Final Fantasy X or X-2 and win right away. You keep dying at this boss, and you cannot buy a super-powered sword.

So in my opinion it isn't /always/ the MMO itself, but players being drowned in the Pay-to-play world (Which is MMO's fault.) that they give up on something they die at a few times.

Also, a lot of the lesser known companies don't make a lot of profit as it is, and if they don't, they cannot keep the game running, so they make item malls and such to support it. MMo companies are, afterall, a business like any other.

Offline Inkidu

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Re: MMO's are a dying breed?
« Reply #3 on: October 22, 2013, 07:34:30 AM »
I wasn't even talking about graphics. :P

I'm talking diegetically. They're often just kill/collect X return for experience. Even the Old Republic has a lot of that (a lot of critics thought it was worse in such a story conscious game).

I think I'd rather play Final Fantasy and chose how often I have to mindlessly kill monsters over being forced to mindlessly kill monsters to actually play the game. Yes they're both technically the same thing, but the way they're presented invokes different senses of agency. The Final Fantasy example, you're in control. In the latter you're not. It's really that simple sometimes.

Also, MMORPGs for all their bluster are really truly static affairs. The developers introduce changes, but I've never found it added any plasticity into the experience. RPGs are about choice or at least agency, and as many ideal builds as I've seen for WoW, there's not even a real feeling of choice. Not for me at least. What do you as a player personally effect in the game world?

Offline meikle

Re: MMO's are a dying breed?
« Reply #4 on: October 22, 2013, 08:01:21 AM »
Any ideas?

MMO gamers got jaded after years of failed WoW killers, got tired of watching the servers for their alternatives die (RIP CoH/V), and gave up or went back to WoW.  Keep in mind that while a lot of new MMOs are borderline dead on arrival, WoW is still going strong; it's lost more subscribers than most games ever had at their peak and it's still #1.  As of 2012, it was the highest grossing video game in history by a margin of nearly nine billion dollars (after the release of GTA V, its lead is probably a little bit smaller than that.)

Quote
What do you as a player personally effect in the game world?

If you don't think of MMOs (except I guess as those that specifically state otherwise, like TOR) as trying to compete with non-MMO genre RPGs, that probably helps.  WoW is like playing co-op or competitive Tetris or something; it's not about moving the story forward, it's about getting together with people and trying to improve your performance (either in progressing through content and mastering mechanics, or progressing in the ranks in the competitive game), and then you get to play dress up with a paper doll and talk to people and explore a virtual world when you're between the gameplay parts.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2013, 08:08:56 AM by meikle »

Offline GothicFires

Re: MMO's are a dying breed?
« Reply #5 on: October 22, 2013, 10:05:53 AM »
I played an mmo for nearly a year. Why did I stop? It wasn't the money. Hobbies cost money. It was the fact that most of the people were self centered back stabbers that couldn't be bothered to treat a person that they would never see like a human being. I did go to wow for a while because I had one friend to who's house I could drive to if I wanted, who would help me out when I needed. But while I played, I played by myself. I was so scarred by the experience that I wouldn't join another guild.

If I think about it, I still regret focusing more of my life and time to mmos rather than the community here.

Offline SinXAzgard21

Re: MMO's are a dying breed?
« Reply #6 on: October 22, 2013, 01:35:21 PM »
Blame WoW, it has reigned over (still does) MMO's for the longest time.  It has the most simplistic game play, it isn't challenging.  If another 'good' MMO comes along and has fetch quests, it is considered a WoW clone, the whole community bashes it and the game lasts about a year and dies.   Or the game is way more complex than WoW, which honestly isn't say much about either as MMOs are typically user friendly.  Soon it will be back to games where you and 4 other friends can challenge and entire game of content without the douchebaggery of trolls.

Offline Chris Brady

Re: MMO's are a dying breed?
« Reply #7 on: October 22, 2013, 02:01:53 PM »
Blame WoW, it has reigned over (still does) MMO's for the longest time.  It has the most simplistic game play, it isn't challenging.  If another 'good' MMO comes along and has fetch quests, it is considered a WoW clone, the whole community bashes it and the game lasts about a year and dies.   Or the game is way more complex than WoW, which honestly isn't say much about either as MMOs are typically user friendly.
Exactly, WoW took over the market, and whether or not anyone else mimics it, or even some of the systems, immediately everyone bashes the game.  Even those who hate WoW.

Worse, it's mostly word of mouth, a lot of the bashers have never played WoW but will immediately use it as a target of opportunity, whenever possible.

The other issue, though, is content.  Most games, and developers, we're used to, have a 'story', and stories end.  But you cannot have an 'end' to an MMO or you lose money, no matter what the monetization model is used.  There's only so much one can do before boredom and repetition and tedium sets in.  We're in the MMO decline.  Maybe in a few years, they'll come back, but for now...

Offline SinXAzgard21

Re: MMO's are a dying breed?
« Reply #8 on: October 22, 2013, 02:04:34 PM »
Exactly, WoW took over the market, and whether or not anyone else mimics it, or even some of the systems, immediately everyone bashes the game.  Even those who hate WoW.

Worse, it's mostly word of mouth, a lot of the bashers have never played WoW but will immediately use it as a target of opportunity, whenever possible.

The other issue, though, is content.  Most games, and developers, we're used to, have a 'story', and stories end.  But you cannot have an 'end' to an MMO or you lose money, no matter what the monetization model is used.  There's only so much one can do before boredom and repetition and tedium sets in.  We're in the MMO decline.  Maybe in a few years, they'll come back, but for now...

I think that Blizzard is waiting for that moment to release Titan so they can still grasp the MMO crown.

Offline Hemingway

Re: MMO's are a dying breed?
« Reply #9 on: October 22, 2013, 02:09:11 PM »
As someone who played MMOs before WoW ( and has played WoW on and off since release ), I think the main problem is lack of vision or innovation. A lack of imagination, if you will. I played Ultima online, which was largely player-driven. It didn't have grinding in the way that WoW does, or quests the way WoW does, or leveling the way WoW does. All current MMOs do. I bought Guild Wars 2 hoping for a good experience, but was instantly discouraged when I discovered just how much of a grind it could be.

Because playing nearly an MMO nowadays, is like grinding for 40 hours to unlock the actual game. There's nothing but the endgame in most of them. The Secret World, the Old Republic, they tried to do something different. And they succeeded to an extent. But only to an extent. The Secret World is probably the best MMO I've played since WoW. The Old Republic is good, too, but it's like playing a BioWare game with grinding in between the story missions. I like Neverwinter, because leveling in that game is a breeze, and combat is more action-oriented. Still repetetive while leveling, but less static than a game like WoW.

But still. All these games I've mentioned are basically part of the same inbred family. No part of that family is going to replace WoW. When Blizzard release WoW 2 in some five years, people will still play WoW. Developers need to start making something different, something that appeals to another audience.

Man, I still miss Ultima Online. Sort of.

Offline Chris Brady

Re: MMO's are a dying breed?
« Reply #10 on: October 22, 2013, 02:28:36 PM »
I think that Blizzard is waiting for that moment to release Titan so they can still grasp the MMO crown.
Sadly, I doubt that it will happen.  WoW has two major draws, it was (originally) an EQ clone and it had at least 20 years of fans and lore behind them.  Something new isn't going to have the lore draw.

Offline XenphirTopic starter

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Re: MMO's are a dying breed?
« Reply #11 on: October 22, 2013, 02:36:49 PM »
I dislike the MMO's like WoW where it is so repetitive, you just kill things all the time. But not all of them are like that. Like runescape, (Yes I said it.) There was more to just killing. There were sometimes funny skits or missions, and some quests involved no fighting at all. Sometimes, there were also puzzles for you to solve. WLO is sort of like that too, in fact the only killing in Wonderland Online, are boss-like monsters. Though on the map it is hard to avoid fights since, (I believe there were some FF games like this? Haven't played in forever) There were 'invisible' monsters that even if you avoid the ones you see on screen, you sometimes encounter ones you can't see.

However, I think my heart belongs to Skyrim since it came out xD Rpg's will always (In my opinion) be better and more interesting than and MMO. I don't think MMO's are always meant for people to constantly play either. People play them while its fun, get bored and leave, come back later when its fun again. Or some just leave in total, but other new players come in.

Offline Hemingway

Re: MMO's are a dying breed?
« Reply #12 on: October 22, 2013, 02:46:38 PM »
If you like RPGs and you think Skyrim is good, you owe it to yourself to play the Witcher series. Best RPGs ever, if you ask me. Which you didn't. But I told you anyway.

Offline XenphirTopic starter

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Re: MMO's are a dying breed?
« Reply #13 on: October 22, 2013, 02:59:33 PM »
Hmm~ I'll have to check it out.

My first rpg series was Aveyond believe it or not. It was so good that years and years later when they came out with more than 2, (3-1,3-2,3-3 etc it was all part of one story then since 1 & 2 didn't really involve one another.) I played them all and ended up buying every last one. (Lot of money when you add it up xD)

And it was just a simple 2-D game like the old RPG's. Crusader of Centy (Sega), Maybe some older FF games, and I believe the old LoZ games.


I'm not that picky with RPG's, maybe that's why I can play their MMO counterparts so easily. xD

Offline Inkidu

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Re: MMO's are a dying breed?
« Reply #14 on: October 22, 2013, 03:20:01 PM »
Blizzard knows how to run a Skinner Box. :P

My main problem with the MMORPG is that in a world where everyone's a hero, no one is. :\

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Re: MMO's are a dying breed?
« Reply #15 on: October 22, 2013, 03:31:54 PM »
got tired of watching the servers for their alternatives die (RIP CoH/V)

This.  So much this.  *sheds a single tear*

I hate many MMO's because of the whole 'if you're not doing it this way/don't have this gear/ect you are a newb and shall be mocked accordingly' mentality that so many players have.  Don't read quest text, just mash your buttons and collect your loot.  If I'm looking to smash stuff and 'win' I'll break out a console thank you.  I want story, and not just to be standing by as the linear story unfolds, I want to actually feel like I'm part of it and I'm not just watching carefully spaced cut scenes.  Old Republic somewhat manages to do this, but for me nothing has come close to City of Heroes.  Want to dick around and build impossible things out of wall safes in your own little world? Cool you go do that.  Mindlessly beating things up in the streets is your thing? Congratulations you can stay busy forever.  Want to just spend hours mucking about with the character creation/costume screen and roleplay with random strangers and never actually touch missions? More power to you have fun.  Hell get some of your friends and go into the mission architect, write your own god damned story, you can level to max without once touching 'real' game content.

I miss that and have been unable to find a suitable replacement.  So many MMOs these days are about numbers and hoops.  How many bosses has your guild downed? What's your gear score? How many PvP kills do you have? Did you do your daily quests and get your astral diamonds? With online play available through the before mentioned consoles and everyone having a at least one friend who runs a Minecraft server there are more options for scratching that competitive itch and playing with your friends than ever before.  There has to be more than just learning the choreography to beat the newest boss with better and slightly reskinned weaponry or people are going to keep abandoning ship and looking at their options.  (Which isn't really a bad thing...)

Offline XenphirTopic starter

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Re: MMO's are a dying breed?
« Reply #16 on: October 22, 2013, 03:43:17 PM »
Yeah, a lot of people do that it seems. Though everyone was a "noob" once and everyone does things differently. Me personally, I like the in game quests and solo-ing throughout them rather then instances or dungeons or PvP etc. But it does seem nowadays with MMO's that if you suck at PvP you are a "noob" when some PvP players haven't even touched a few of the "Newbie" quests. :/

Offline Chris Brady

Re: MMO's are a dying breed?
« Reply #17 on: October 22, 2013, 05:12:55 PM »
Blizzard knows how to run a Skinner Box. :P

My main problem with the MMORPG is that in a world where everyone's a hero, no one is. :\
Which is another issue:   Everyone in an MMO has a different idea of what a 'hero' is, and what they want to be.  And when you get to the hundreds of thousands (which is standard for MMOs), it tends to dilute the experience.

Offline XenphirTopic starter

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Re: MMO's are a dying breed?
« Reply #18 on: October 22, 2013, 05:48:35 PM »
That is the thing though, you can kind of separate yourself from everyone else for awhile. Like, when you are solo-questing think of it as a normal Rpg, and when you want to PvP then focus more on others. Really, as far as the Storyline goes, you are the only hero. NPC's still refer to you as "The one" and such. If NPC's thought about it (Or computed about it) having everyone, they'd be like, "I have heard of your many achievements across the land, helping my people, you are the hero of this land, so go stand over there." And he points to over a thousand people standing on a Hero Spot or something.

Offline meikle

Re: MMO's are a dying breed?
« Reply #19 on: October 22, 2013, 07:01:13 PM »
While MMOs have seen a slight downward trend since about 2011, claiming that they're going out of style or dying off seems a bit premature.

Offline Outsider

Re: MMO's are a dying breed?
« Reply #20 on: October 22, 2013, 07:08:09 PM »
The real problem is, none of the current release MMOs are as good/optimized as WoW is. Example: When the apparently most expensive game in the branche, SW:ToR was made, it was oriented on classic WoW. Sure, it had way better features than the vanilla World of Warcraft, but WoW had progressed by 7 years until then and eradicated all the small mistakes. Other new MMO do the same mistake, Rift feels like yet another clone without all the optimization in engine and gameplay.
The most alternative recent MMO was Guild Wars 2 and while it brought many new and fun things, it lacked any real endgame content. And you can't hook people into an MMO without gear/item progression, well balanced and bug-free content (GW2 content, especially Arah, was bug riddled as hell even half a year later) or any rewarding PvP experience.

When it comes to steamlined MMO, people have already seen pretty much everything thanks to WoW, and when it comes to alternative MMO, they simply fail to execute their own version/adjustments to content. Which is why I am 100% sure that the ESO hype will last as long as GW2 did; it already shows the same symptoms in their ideas.

I'd go as far as to say that making a good MMO is simply "too hard" nowadays, takes too much time/money/resources.

Offline Hemingway

Re: MMO's are a dying breed?
« Reply #21 on: October 22, 2013, 07:19:59 PM »
Here's another mistake I think a lot of people make: WoW is not actually a bad game. It has a reputation like that among some people, but I think that's unfair. I mean, say what you will about the content. I personally think the lore has gone down the shitter basically since the Burning Crusade ( it started with the huge retcons introduced with TBC ). At this point, I think they've made it impossible for themselves to make a Warcraft 4 that doesn't skip centuries ahead or something similar. And the raids, the looting, the challenges ... I guess that depends entirely on the players. They've done a lot to allow casual players to at least have something to do, but ... eh, results are mixed, and I still find that the most difficult thing about raids is organizing them, not downing bosses. I still find that satisfying, though.

But the engine, the gameplay, all of that? It's absolutely flawless! Most MMOs, because of what they are, to me end up feeling choppy and just ... not very smooth, you know? WoW has absolutely perfect animations, it's got a cartoony style that's starting to look dated, but still looks good compared to the resources it demands, and the whole game is just ... polished. A few of Blizzard's streamlining efforts feel unnecessary, like the new talents, but it's not like anything is really lost since in the previous system most people would use very similar builds anyway.

And Pandaria was just a great expansion. I know a lot of people don't like it, but it's just so much fun. It's got charm and humor, and a lot of things to do more casually. Great!

Offline Inkidu

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Re: MMO's are a dying breed?
« Reply #22 on: October 22, 2013, 07:35:00 PM »
I've played WoW, and I was not impressed.

Offline Hemingway

Re: MMO's are a dying breed?
« Reply #23 on: October 22, 2013, 07:37:36 PM »
Any other MMOs impress you more?

Offline Inkidu

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Re: MMO's are a dying breed?
« Reply #24 on: October 22, 2013, 09:02:24 PM »
Any other MMOs impress you more?
The only one that did actually played out like a tactical turn-based RPG, but it was really pay-to-win.

Overall, I'm thoroughly unimpressed by just about every MMORPG. I've played about ten or fifteen up until I couldn't anymore due to internet limitations.