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Author Topic: This thread is about Pathfinder RPG!  (Read 12419 times)

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Online TheGlyphstone

Re: This thread is about Pathfinder RPG!
« Reply #150 on: January 02, 2014, 01:15:38 PM »
This should be a shoo-in for your spell list.
« Last Edit: January 04, 2014, 05:51:55 AM by TheGlyphstone »

Offline Callie Del Noire

Re: This thread is about Pathfinder RPG!
« Reply #151 on: January 02, 2014, 01:20:11 PM »
Your link is broken and it's on my list.. got to get to it first. :D

Here is what I got so far.

Spoiler: Click to Show/Hide
Unnamed Hero
Female Human (Varisian) Wizard 2
CN Medium humanoid (human)
Init +2; Senses Perception +1
--------------------
Defense
--------------------
AC 13, touch 12, flat-footed 11 (+1 armor, +2 Dex)
hp 12 (2d6+2)
Fort +1, Ref +2, Will +3
--------------------
Offense
--------------------
Speed 30 ft.
Melee staff (arcane bond item) +1 (1d6-1/×2)
Spell-Like Abilities
   3/day—daze (DC 13)
Wizard Spells Prepared (CL 2nd; concentration +6):
1st (3/day)—sleep (x2) (DC 16), mage armor, charm person (DC 16)
0 (at will)—acid splash, detect magic, ghost sound (DC 14), prestidigitation (DC 14)
--------------------
Statistics
--------------------
Str 8, Dex 14, Con 12, Int 18, Wis 10, Cha 14
Base Atk +1; CMB +0; CMD 12
Feats Additional Traits, Spell Focus (enchantment), Varisian Tattoo
Traits dangerously curious, extremely fashionable, fast-talker, omen
Skills Bluff +10, Diplomacy +10, Intimidate +10, Knowledge (arcana) +8, Linguistics +9, Perception +1, Profession (courtesean) +4, Sense Motive +1, Spellcraft +9, Use Magic Device +8
Languages Azlanti, Common, Goblin, Kelish, Osiriani, Shoanti, Thassilonian, Varisian
SQ arcane bonds (object [staff [arcane bond item]] [1/day]), dazing touch, specialized schools (lust [enchantment])
Other Gear Masterwork Haramaki, Staff (Arcane Bond Item), Caul, Courtier's outfit, Noble's outfit, Jewelry (100 gp), 1433 GP, 100 GP of Valuables
--------------------
Special Abilities
--------------------
Arcane Bond (Staff [Arcane Bond Item]) (1/day) (Sp) Use object to cast any spell in your spellbook 1/day. Without it, Concentration required to cast spells (DC20 + spell level).
Dazing Touch (7/day) (Sp) Touch attack dazes foe for 1 rd, if HD <= wizard level.
Lust (Enchantment) The enchanter uses magic to control and manipulate the minds of his victims.
Omen (1/day) As a swift action, Demoralize an opponent.
Spell Focus (Enchantment) Spells from one school of magic have +1 to their save DC.
Varisian Tattoo (Enchantment) Spells from chosen school gain +1 caster level.

Hero Lab and the Hero Lab logo are Registered Trademarks of LWD Technology, Inc. Free download at http://www.wolflair.com
Pathfinder® and associated marks and logos are trademarks of Paizo Publishing, LLC®, and are used under license.

Offline SkynetTopic starter

Re: This thread is about Pathfinder RPG!
« Reply #152 on: January 03, 2014, 10:37:20 PM »
So over on rpg.net there's a guy doing a Let's Read of the Inner Sea World Guide.

He (or she, I don't know) is doing a pretty good job at it so far, and I'd recommend you check it out if you want to find out more about Pathfinder's main campaign setting.

Offline Callie Del Noire

Re: This thread is about Pathfinder RPG!
« Reply #153 on: January 04, 2014, 11:00:57 PM »
I loved the fun that was using my Grenadier tonight. 'Raining' Arrows with a holy water resevoir and infused alchemical weapons makes for nasty hits to ghosts and demonic eidolongs. :D

Offline SkynetTopic starter

Re: This thread is about Pathfinder RPG!
« Reply #154 on: February 02, 2014, 10:04:40 PM »
There hasn't been a post here in nearly a month.  Time to change that!

Over on the Paizo forums, there's a big kerfluffle over the designers applying Errata to Crane Wing.

What I got from it: Buhlman and the other designers got many reports from Pathfinder Society players where the feat allowed PCs to deflect attacks.  Apparently big opponents with single attacks are quite common in PFS, leading to the perception of it as overpowered.

Compare and contrast:

Quote from: Original Text
Crane Wing [Combat]
You move with the speed and finesse of an avian hunter, your sweeping blocks and graceful motions allowing you to deflect melee attacks with ease.
Prerequisites: Crane Style, Dodge, Improved Unarmed Strike, base attack bonus +5 or monk level 5th.
Benefit: Once per round while using Crane Style, when you have at least one hand free and are either fighting defensively or using the total defense action, you can deflect one melee weapon attack that would normally hit you.  You expend no action to deflect the attack, but you must be aware of it and not flat-footed.  An attack so deflected deals no damage to you.

and

Quote from: Errata'd Version
Crane Wing (Combat)
You move with the speed and finesse of an avian hunter, your sweeping blocks and graceful motions allowing you to deflect melee attacks with ease.
Prerequisites: Crane Style, Dodge, Improved Unarmed Strike, base attack bonus +5 or monk level 5th.
Benefit: Once per round, when fighting defensively with at least one hand free, you can designate one melee attack being made against you before the roll is made. You receive a +4 dodge bonus to AC against that attack. If you using the total defense action instead, you can deflect one melee attack that would normally hit you. An attack so deflected deals no damage and has no other effect (instead treat it as a miss). You do not expend an action when using this feat, but you must be aware of the attack and not flat-footed.

This caused a lot of posters to get upset at Paizo, in part because it heavily nerfed a feat and build style which requires quite a lot of investment to gain.  As feats cannot be "retrained" without rules from Ultimate Campaign, it's more of an impact than applying an errata to a spell.  It's also in focus with the trend of eagerly applying nerfs to martial options while leaving a lot of overpowered spellcaster options untouched.

What are your thoughts on this?
« Last Edit: February 02, 2014, 10:07:34 PM by Skynet »

Online Myrleena

Re: This thread is about Pathfinder RPG!
« Reply #155 on: February 02, 2014, 10:12:40 PM »
As Jason Buhlman said: PFS brought it to their attention first, but it wasn't the only source.

My opinion: It was too much to begin with. At low and mid-levels, I would have to build encounters around the feat. I'm used to the spells that mimic this, and unlike the feat, they're limited resources in every case. At higher levels its less of a concern, but still something I'd have to keep in mind. So I'm perfectly comfortable with the change.

Also, in my opinion: Any GM who chooses to use the new version, and has players that have the entire chain, should let them retrain the entire chain for free, on the spot. If they don't, they're being a jerk and shouldn't be.

Offline Jeramiahh

Re: This thread is about Pathfinder RPG!
« Reply #156 on: February 02, 2014, 10:21:32 PM »
I heard it put best on the forums: The feat, in and of itself is not a problem. The problem is when it's the capstone of an entire build of 'you can't hurt me'.

I had a player like that, in a previous campaign; Dex-based monk, who built to have tons of AC, tons of saves, reach, and trip on his attacks. He was nearly untouchable (Went toe-to-toe, solo, against a dragon, in melee, as part of an honorable duel. And won.) He didn't even have to use this feat; most opponents only hit him on a 17+, anyway. If he'd had this, he'd've gone from getting hit every 1-2 rounds, to getting hit... never.

The only people upset by this are the people who want to 'win' D&D, and the ones who play very high-powered games, where you have to pull out tricks like this to survive, because your DM's doing it back to you.

Offline SkynetTopic starter

Re: This thread is about Pathfinder RPG!
« Reply #157 on: February 02, 2014, 10:29:52 PM »
The only people upset by this are the people who want to 'win' D&D, and the ones who play very high-powered games, where you have to pull out tricks like this to survive, because your DM's doing it back to you.

Don't you think that's an unfair exaggeration?  The feat only works against one attack a round, and not against ranged attacks.  At higher levels there are many ways around it.

Offline Callie Del Noire

Re: This thread is about Pathfinder RPG!
« Reply #158 on: February 02, 2014, 10:34:21 PM »
Don't you think that's an unfair exaggeration?  The feat only works against one attack a round, and not against ranged attacks.  At higher levels there are many ways around it.

Actually as one of those PFS GMs tearing his hair out, it WAS a problem. Granted said monk couldn't hit for shit.. but short of a HUGE shower of ranged attacks, which can be surprisingly rare in some scenarios.. the issue WAS that they were unhittable.

When a frigging RUNELORD can't conjure up something that can hit said monk @ 11th level. There is a problem.

Online TheGlyphstone

Re: This thread is about Pathfinder RPG!
« Reply #159 on: February 02, 2014, 10:36:50 PM »
Don't you think that's an unfair exaggeration?  The feat only works against one attack a round, and not against ranged attacks.  At higher levels there are many ways around it.

Actually as one of those PFS GMs tearing his hair out, it WAS a problem. Granted said monk couldn't hit for shit.. but short of a HUGE shower of ranged attacks, which can be surprisingly rare in some scenarios.. the issue WAS that they were unhittable.

When a frigging RUNELORD can't conjure up something that can hit said monk @ 11th level. There is a problem.

Yeah. In a regular campaign, where the GM can customize encounters to provide a challenge, the feat is only situationally useful against a small subset of big brutes - giants, ogres, and their ilk - who rely on a single powerful attack. But in PFS, or similar published modules, by-the-book the enemies and encounters are not built to handle stuff like that.

Offline Jeramiahh

Re: This thread is about Pathfinder RPG!
« Reply #160 on: February 02, 2014, 10:37:20 PM »
Don't you think that's an unfair exaggeration?  The feat only works against one attack a round, and not against ranged attacks.  At higher levels there are many ways around it.
Quote
The only people upset by this are the people who want to 'win' D&D

Actually, I'd like to hear the 'many ways around it'. Especially when the class that normally takes this also has Deflect Arrows, and full saves, with their key attributes being Dex, Con, and Wis.

Offline SkynetTopic starter

Re: This thread is about Pathfinder RPG!
« Reply #161 on: February 02, 2014, 10:46:48 PM »
Ranged touch attack spells.  Scorching Ray, for example.

Also, a Monk is unlikely to have high ability scores in his important ones due to the class being dependent upon multiple attributes (strength for damage, dexterity for armor class, constitution for hit points, wisdom for monk stuff).  A monk has good saves, but many primary spellcasters only have to focus on one ability score (key spellcasting ability) to up their Save DCs.  And monsters with Spell-like abilities usually rely upon 1/2 their Hit Die instead of spell level like traditional Vancian casters, and spellcasting ones are likely to have a good ability score to boost it.

I agree that the original feat is very powerful, but I don't see it as solely the province of game-breaking munchkins (who tend to go for spellcasting shenanigans and insanely high-damage builds instead, which usually preclude one-handed melee fighters).
« Last Edit: February 02, 2014, 10:49:46 PM by Skynet »

Online TheGlyphstone

Re: This thread is about Pathfinder RPG!
« Reply #162 on: February 02, 2014, 10:47:26 PM »
Actually, I'd like to hear the 'many ways around it'. Especially when the class that normally takes this also has Deflect Arrows, and full saves, with their key attributes being Dex, Con, and Wis.

Ignore him? He's a monk who's stacked all his high stats into defensive attributes and devoted all his feats to defense. He's going to struggle hard to threaten anything level-appropriate aside from swarms of mooks.

Offline Callie Del Noire

Re: This thread is about Pathfinder RPG!
« Reply #163 on: February 02, 2014, 10:47:40 PM »
Actually, I'd like to hear the 'many ways around it'. Especially when the class that normally takes this also has Deflect Arrows, and full saves, with their key attributes being Dex, Con, and Wis.

Another encounter.. they (big bad) couldn't be really hurt by anyone, the monk kept tripping/disarming him, and even PRONE the others couldn't hurt him. .(the ranged COULD hit him when he wasn't prone but he spent most of the fight prone and the +4 AC to ranged made it go from merely hard to screamingly impossible for the ranged). The two beat stick melee types  had taken a rather nasty hit to strength to the point they were suffering.

I actually lost my cool and told him point blank to 'quit fucking with your food and kill your dinner.'

The only person who was doing any damage consistently was the guy with the wand.

Offline Jeramiahh

Re: This thread is about Pathfinder RPG!
« Reply #164 on: February 02, 2014, 11:00:38 PM »
Quote
Ranged touch attack spells.  Scorching Ray, for example.

Mm, yes, because Dex and Wis don't translate to touch AC for a monk. Nor does fighting defensively. Nor do Rings of protection or a few other items. Ooh, and miss chance. And we all know wizards have a great base attack bonus.

Quote
Ignore him?

Yes, brilliant idea. Allow me to ignore the flying man with a 10-20' reach, Combat Reflexes, and access to combat maneuvers like Trip, Disarm, Steal, or Blind. I don't need to move, see, use a weapon or cast spells.

The whole point of the build isn't to hit hard. I think he did a whopping (monk fist damage) +1d6+6 or so. That's what the guy with the two-handed sword who hits for 30+ and crits every third attack is for. His job is to be ANNOYING. It is to make himself the biggest, meanest, most annoying, untouchable target, and, frequently, the *only* visible target, and to simply shut down enemies so his allies can clean up.

Online TheGlyphstone

Re: This thread is about Pathfinder RPG!
« Reply #165 on: February 02, 2014, 11:06:09 PM »
Mm, yes, because Dex and Wis don't translate to touch AC for a monk. Nor does fighting defensively. Nor do Rings of protection or a few other items. Ooh, and miss chance. And we all know wizards have a great base attack bonus.

Yes, brilliant idea. Allow me to ignore the flying man with a 10-20' reach, Combat Reflexes, and access to combat maneuvers like Trip, Disarm, Steal, or Blind. I don't need to move, see, use a weapon or cast spells.

The whole point of the build isn't to hit hard. I think he did a whopping (monk fist damage) +1d6+6 or so. That's what the guy with the two-handed sword who hits for 30+ and crits every third attack is for. His job is to be ANNOYING. It is to make himself the biggest, meanest, most annoying, untouchable target, and, frequently, the *only* visible target, and to simply shut down enemies so his allies can clean up.

Where was he getting his Reach and flight? And his miss chance?

Offline Callie Del Noire

Re: This thread is about Pathfinder RPG!
« Reply #166 on: February 02, 2014, 11:12:47 PM »
Where was he getting his Reach and flight? And his miss chance?

If the build was like some I've seen he'd be using a reach weapon and/or things like smoke sticks or potions of blur.

The only reason that the monk DIDN'T work on my fighter when I got dominated was a combination of a really NASTY debuff on him and the fact taht my Tower Sheild specialist uses a locking gauntlet AND you cant' disarm a tower shield. He blinded my character for A round (dirty trick) with my TS added to my CMD I was one of the few he couldn't consistently trip/disarm/dirty trick. One cleave to his weapon, one dirty trick to his eyes and one really LUCKY dirty trick (He didnt' roll above a 4 on those) and he was hurting and backed off. The ONLY time I saw that happen that didn't involve AOE or spells of outrageous power (Blasphemy)
« Last Edit: February 02, 2014, 11:16:29 PM by Callie Del Noire »

Online TheGlyphstone

Re: This thread is about Pathfinder RPG!
« Reply #167 on: February 02, 2014, 11:17:13 PM »
If the build was like some I've seen he'd be using a reach weapon and/or things like smoke sticks or potions of blur.

That would explain the 10ft. reach, and I guess the miss chances if he's popping blur potions every fight. Just checking to see if he's a real character or just a walking buff sponge for the wizard to spend his leftover spell slots on.

Offline Callie Del Noire

Re: This thread is about Pathfinder RPG!
« Reply #168 on: February 02, 2014, 11:18:57 PM »
That would explain the 10ft. reach, and I guess the miss chances if he's popping blur potions every fight. Just checking to see if he's a real character or just a walking buff sponge for the wizard to spend his leftover spell slots on.

A little of column A and a little of Column B. Enlarge Person is an AWESOME spell for most maneuver types.

Online Myrleena

Re: This thread is about Pathfinder RPG!
« Reply #169 on: February 02, 2014, 11:20:09 PM »
I believe that the character in Jera's game actually did it through the elemental style feats, but I don't know, and I know he's gone to bed, so you won't find out until tomorrow, at the soonest.

As for the miss chance, a cloak of minor displacement would be very, very easy to acquire for that.

Online TheGlyphstone

Re: This thread is about Pathfinder RPG!
« Reply #170 on: February 02, 2014, 11:21:17 PM »
A little of column A and a little of Column B. Enlarge Person is an AWESOME spell for most maneuver types.

No doubt. Enlarge Person is an awesome spell for pretty much anyone. I just try to make a distinction between 'can do their job, does their job better with help' (having a reach weapon, drinking Blur pots, getting an Enlarge Person spell) and 'can only do their job with help' (needing Enlarge Person and Blur and Fly cast on them every fight).
« Last Edit: February 02, 2014, 11:22:56 PM by TheGlyphstone »

Offline Callie Del Noire

Re: This thread is about Pathfinder RPG!
« Reply #171 on: February 02, 2014, 11:25:14 PM »
No doubt. Enlarge Person is an awesome spell for pretty much anyone. I just try to make a distinction between 'can do their job, does their job better with help' (having a reach weapon, drinking Blur pots, getting an Enlarge Person spell) and 'can only do their job with help' (needing Enlarge Person and Blur and Fly cast on them every fight).

Oh trust me.. Enlarge Person is more of a 'do their job better with it.' That is how my fighter gets from a high 30s to a 40 CMD. Rhea is a nasty person to fight..and after THREE near problems wtih dominate person.. I FINALLY had enough coin to buy a clear spindle IOUN torch for my wayfinder.

Most of the melee guys in this area sneer at me for going TS over 2-handed weapon. Till I do the defensive thing and take only 1/3rd the damage they do and hammer bad guys with vital strike and/or sunders. (My sword.. nicknamed 'Bard Beater' .. is 'only' a +1 Adamantine Bastard Sword)

Of course I'd LOVE to see what a one trick pony could do in the scenario I'm doing in two weeks. It would be fun to see him fight a GARGANTUAN demon out of the world wound with like a +19 and multitattack. With like claw x2, Pincer x2' bite and all sorts of combat feats like Awesome Blow
« Last Edit: February 02, 2014, 11:50:23 PM by Callie Del Noire »

Offline Jeramiahh

Re: This thread is about Pathfinder RPG!
« Reply #172 on: February 03, 2014, 04:55:58 PM »
That would explain the 10ft. reach, and I guess the miss chances if he's popping blur potions every fight. Just checking to see if he's a real character or just a walking buff sponge for the wizard to spend his leftover spell slots on.

Marid Style, Lunge, and Enlarge Person. The former two, obviously, he had himself, and the latter he could have done with UMD, though he preferred to receive from the sorcerer, because characters don't exist in a vacuum.

Flight actually came from Suishen, an artifact sword as part of the campaign, that grants Air Walk 3/day at a high CL. Though, that just saved them a casting of Fly or Overland Flight. Blur was typically pre-cast by one of the mages, although he often didn't need it.

But, you know, hypothetical characters who are simultaneously overpowered and underpowered and exist in a vacuum of stats and numbers are so much more fun to analyze than a character who synergies with a party in such a way that he renders 80+% of encounters pointless, in real situations, because the former ones don't exist and can be used as wonderful strawman arguments.

Online TheGlyphstone

Re: This thread is about Pathfinder RPG!
« Reply #173 on: February 03, 2014, 05:03:05 PM »
Your character is carrying a Major Artifact. That puts him so far off the baseline that it has singlehandedly invalidated any use as an example he might have for evaluating whether or not a feat is overpowered/broken across the game as a whole. Thank you for that clarification, we can now move on.

Online Myrleena

Re: This thread is about Pathfinder RPG!
« Reply #174 on: February 03, 2014, 05:10:07 PM »
Excuse me, Glyph, but you're ignoring that that item is given to the group in an actual adventure path. No modifications to the game, nothing. That's a real situation, that was designed by Paizo Publishing. Thus, it's actually a perfectly fair comparison.